Should Schools Be Involved In Disciplining Students For Off-Campus Bullying?
from the cyber-or-otherwise dept
The NY Times is running a long article looking at one of the favorite moral panics of the day: cyberbullying. The specific article questions how schools should be dealing with the issue, especially when it comes to activity that takes place entirely off-campus. The article actually focuses a lot of attention on the middle school principal we wrote about a couple months ago who sent a long email to parents telling them to ban all social networking from their kids -- effectively taking the "head in sand" approach to dealing with these issues. To be fair, in this article, that principal comes off as a lot more reasonable, initially telling angry parents that off-campus activity really is outside of the domain of what the school should be involved in.In reading through the article, though, part of what struck me is that it seems like some parents are simply trying to get the school to act because they're unwilling to act themselves. Take, for example, this exchange towards the beginning of the article:
Punish him, insisted the parents.In other words, there were plenty of paths that the family could have taken, but they didn't want to actually do anything. They wanted the school to act as parents for the kid because they were unwilling to do so. That's not to say these things don't create difficult situations, but it seems like a weak solution when parents just punt the issue and demand that schools handle it. And, of course, the article also highlights cases where parents also get (reasonably) upset when schools punish their kids for off-campus activity.
"I said, 'This occurred out of school, on a weekend,' " recalled the principal, Tony Orsini. "We can't discipline him."
Had they contacted the boy's family, he asked.
Too awkward, they replied. The fathers coach sports together.
What about the police, Mr. Orsini asked.
A criminal investigation would be protracted, the parents had decided, its outcome uncertain. They wanted immediate action.
It's no secret that kids can and will be mean. And with modern communication technology it's easier for kids to be mean directly more often and in much more public ways. That's a challenge, to be sure, but asking schools to handle those issues doesn't seem like an effective or an efficient solution.
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No.
First, teachers and principles are exactly that - they're not the parents of your child. They're not paid enough to deal with what your child does outside of school.
Second, you shouldn't even want relative strangers to be administering more than the most basic discipline to your child.
Third, if you really don't want to parent your child, call your local Social Services and drop your child off. Sounds bad? Well, parenting via badly-paid school personnel is just as bad.
There is a system in place to offer more than basic discipline to a child. It starts with their immediate caregivers.
There is a system in place to handle children who commit crimes. It starts with your local police station.
There is a system in place to handle parents who are neglecting their children. It starts with your local Child Protective Services office, or its equivalent.
Schools need to pick up the phone and call the correct first contact for each system in any case that they believe warrants more than the most basic discipline.
End of story.
Thank God that I homeschool.
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Cowards
But I will say this as a new parent: it scares me to think that my child could be the victim of such abusive behavior. Where the fear comes from, though, is not knowing how to properly handle it. As the article says, contacting the police is problematic; contacting the other parent might not work either if they take offense to the accusation or, worse, encourage it (as we've also seen before).
If the community can come up with a step-by-step plan for dealing with situations like this, perhaps the fear mongering would go away and when this happens, we'd all be able to deal with this in a way that address the bullying and teaches children valuable socail & problem solving lessons.
At some point, I'll come up with my own plan for dealing with bullies - cyber or otherwise - and do the research to understand the best way to handle the situation based on the severity of the threats. I think they call that... parenting. :-/
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No.
Gee, this test is easy. What else have you got?
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this specific item may have happened outside of school, but one would have to be stupid not to think that the students involved would not also bring it into school, and use it as part of intimidation that often happens insider the school, or is carried into the school.
the principal may feel he is not in a position to do anything, but it wouldnt hurt for him (or her) to bring the bullying student into their office for a talk, at least to discussion the situation and how it might apply in school. making it clear that these tactics will not be tolerated in school would not be a bad move.
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Re: No.
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Re: Cowards
Personally, I'm not going to utilize any community-wide plan that I don't 100% agree with, and I can't see any community making such a plan together. :P
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Perhaps they end up in the principals office anyway, but then he would be in charge of working out a solution between both sets of parents and not dishing out punishment on behalf of the school.
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Re:
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That would be a great deterrent for quite a few children (Who the hell wants to submit to something boring and embarrassing like that?) And it would help children who are bullying, or at least get them in front of someone who can better gauge what services they need.
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All too common in schools
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Re:
But until they do it's not the under school's responsibility or authority. WHEN they do, then the school authorities can and should act.
bring the bullying student into their office for a talk
This would be appropriate once the behavior is exhibited under school authority. Until then you're essentially advising school to punish kids on the acusation, because last I checked going to the principal's office was one (low level) form of punishment.
making it clear that these tactics will not be tolerated in school would not be a bad move.
I would expect that to be a standard policy that would be communicated at the beginning of each term; in the absence of actual behavior, reiteration should be unnecessary.
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The correct answer to Mike's question is still no, but I expect school involvement outside of school will become more and more the norm.
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Re:
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cyber bullying
The other reality is that is a kid is being bullied off-campus, they're more than likely also being bullied at school.
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Like in all situations ...
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What are the boundaries?
When I send my child to school, I expect them to spend their time learning and not being beaten up by fellow pupils. This includes on the way to school (e.g. the school bus) and in after school activities. It also includes non-physical abuse.
I agree that the school system should not be a law enforcement agency, they should be involved so as to inform the protagonists of the outcome of their actions and to escalate to the appropriate authorities as necessary.
It's all very nice to say as adults that you would encourage your kid to stand up for themselves. It's somewhat less amusing when your kid hangs themselves in their bedroom because they can't cope with the bullying.
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Re: cyber bullying
They aren't responsible for keeping the home environment safe. This does not mean it isn't "something we need to worry about", it just means the school should notify the proper authority (usually the parents, but potentially child services or whatever) rather than trying to go all vigilante and deal out punishment themselves.
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Re:
But the actions weren't during school hours. So, where does the school come in?
If we'd work for the same company, and I'd start pestering you after working hours, do you step to the boss to complain? Or to the proper authorities?
In this case, the parents are the proper authorities, it was done during their supervision.
Believe me, I've had to endure a lot of bullying in my time, so, in a way, I'm an expert on this. If it's done during school hours, then yes, the principal should act. If it's done AFTER school, it's the parents problem and they should work it out.
PERIOD!
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Re:
Catch them in the act (teachers would have to actually pay attention for a change) and then send them to counseling.
Suspected bullying teaches children that authority figures can subject you to humiliating courses like Bullying Counseling at mere suspicion (read: whim).
School is about learning the ropes of society. Let's not teach kids to accept being abused by those in power any more than we already do.
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Re: What are the boundaries?
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Re: What are the boundaries?
"This occurred out of school, on a weekend"
Why should they have responsibility in this instance? Why should they be the ones to act, not the parents?
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Do they have library cards?
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Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
the school needs to work to make the time at school as safe as they can. many schools fail. i guess your idea is that until the kid is actually on the floor bleeding, nobody should think about it?
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your missing the point of free public education
This has been the whole plan folks as crazy as that sounds. Do you think a parent can compete against the school ? I realize that some parents spend loads of time with the kids but many more do not, can not or do not want to. It's like a Sunday school teacher competing against free public education. The slant is obvious in that a couple hours versus a work week do you think that child's faith will be in question after the state religion is force-fed ? What's worse is the push for children to be introduced to the state-nanny at an earlier age.
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Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
Responsible parents would be aware of what's going on and alert the school if necessary. Yes, they can't control or be aware of everything that's going on, but they're got a million times more chance of knowing and direct responsibility than some random teach who hasn't seen the kid for over 48 hours.
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Re: No.
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Re: No.
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What do you do?
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UM i dunno but i think......
THEY um er are supposed to do these things called er um a whats that...PARENTING.
PERHAPS a mental test before being allowed ot have kids would be better angle.
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Read the article
Humorously enough, it turns out the boy accused of cyberbullying was actually innocent.
Which raises another issue -- how can you expect a school to deal with cyberbullying when the bully might not even be a student at that school?
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re:
For instance, alot of parents suspect that their children may decide to have sex, and subject them to embarrassing talks, and even make them take birth control without their consent based on that suspicion. Ohh, evil parents. They should wait until they catch their child in flagrante delicto before taking them to the doctor. :) Or until they catch an STD, or get pregnant. Oh, wait...
Also, school is not about learning the ropes of society. School isn't even a good place to do so. (Socialization with solely people of your own age and general income level isn't real socialization at all.)
Let's teach children that bullying isn't acceptable, by targeting children who may need the counseling, and making sure that they get the services that they may need.
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Re: cyber bullying
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Re: Re: No.
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We live in a community it is everybody's responsibility to teach those children, emphases on the teaching part if you get a children doing something wrong you go tell them what is wrong and what will happen, you call their parents but you don't punish them that is not the role of others but the parents.
When parents get angry at other people talking to their children they should get discriminated inside that group until either they move or fall into compliance.
That said the school should have the power to do something about it, not punishment but at the very least the capability to force the young ones to listen to a very long boring lecture, and parents should be shamed into doing something.
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bullies
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Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Re:
Depending upon the type of "pestering" happening after work hours (for example sexual harassment) your employer may be legally required to do something about it.
I moved between schools a lot as a child and at the two different middle schools I attended I was teased and bullied relentlessly (as in the police where involved at one point). I couldn't imagine what it would have been like for that to "follow" me home via text messages and social networking.
I don't know exactly what role a school has but the idea that any kind of bullying can happen "only off school grounds" is a little ridiculous. If one child is constantly bullying another outside of school but only committing more minor infractions at school (but ones that become increasingly traumatic), wouldn't you expect the school to at least separate the students?
On another note: Who else read the part about the music industry lawyer and his daughter? Who besides me wanted to hunt that guy down and beat him with a stick?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
they are not responsible for what happens outside of school, but they can use what happens outside to guide them in dealing with potential problems inside the school before they happen, rather than waiting for something more serious to happen on premises.
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As a community
Should the school or anyone else have the power to punish those kids?
Nope, should they have the power to force them to listen to a long boring lecture sure, should we be able to discriminate lazy, coward parents sure.
This is a social responsibility where everyone should be involved.
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As a community
Maybe the parents should be forced to apologize to the victims in person with their kids present, so they know they will hurt their family when they do so.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
Kids who bully don't usually have responsible parents - in many cases the parents are even worse than the child.
Consider - child A hits child B, parent of child B calls parent of child A. Parent of child A begins a campaign of harassment against parent of child B eventually ending in breaking and entering followed by a physical assault. (this actually happened at a school i attended)
Its great that the police can take care of the parent problem ... but what is being done for the child, nothing.
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Re: Re: Re:
there is a MAJOR difference between this and your proposed mandated counciling that I would expect you to recognize -- namely, this it is the *parents* imposing restrictions and protections on *their child* in the interest of protecting *that child* from the child's own decisions.
In your mandated-counciling idea, it's some third party forcing corrections on the child under the suspicion that the child could be a danger to someone else. I wouldn't be (very) bothered if a parent decided to get their kid counciling because they thought he needed it, but it's a much different thing when a third party mandates that same couciling on the basis of suspicion of potential inappropriate behavior.
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"Social networking" does nothing but provide another medium for bullying. It allows those too weak to do anything in person to hide behind a computer screen and think they are big and bad.
A wise person once said "There can be no justice without punishment." How is punishment acheived in this digital realm? Take it away. CHILDREN should not be allowed to have the use of technology without supervision. They are too immature, too young, and not smart enough to understand how vulnerable they are to the threats within this digital life.
The schools and educators are just helpless here b/c a majority of the drama that transpires on these social networking sites stems from events at the schools. Where does their authority to investigate and punish end?
Society and technology enables this behavior. We have no one else to blame but ourselves.
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Re: Re: Re:
Uhm, why? There are details missing (like, were the other girls suspended, too, or just the one who posted the video?), but it sounds to me like he was just standing up for his daughter's rights and justly limiting the school's authority. He admits that what his daughter did was mean, and he probably should do the decent thing and take the video down, but there's no law against being mean. And even if there was, it's not the school's place to enforce such things.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Counseling is ordered by the lowest level of Child Protective Services all of the time. It's pretty much a CYA so that they can say that they did something if it ever comes up again. If you refuse, your case is referred to court and you can explain your refusal to a judge, who may or may not agree with you.
Further, my oldest son was suspected of not behaving appropriately several years ago, and I was the first to put him into counseling. If I had chosen not to, I would have had to find a different day care center, which seems appropriate to me.
Think of it this way. The schools suspects that two children are bullying each other. The school calls the parents. Two weeks later, the signs are still there. The school calls the parents and recommends counseling. If they don't agree to counseling, and the signs are still there, they call CPS. You know the first thing that CPS will do? Recommend counseling.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Next, counseling isn't even close to the same thing as a 'correction'. It's only a 'correction' if your child is a bully. If your child isn't a bully, then it's merely boring talk from adults. Or insightful talk to a child who isn't yet bullying, but might in the future without intercession.
It seems like you think that counseling is a punishment that should only be given to the guilty. I disagree. It's not a punishment, and childish behavior isn't a crime, anyway. Further, we correct children's behavior all the time, without proof that they've misbehaved. We preemptively correct behavior, without any proof that they're going to misbehave. That's our job.
Next, forced counseling happens all the time in schools. Children who let their grades lapse go speak to the school guidance counselor. Children who have behaved badly go and speak to the principal. The idea of mandatory counseling for bad behavior isn't new, and parents have agreed to it as part of the school disciplinary plan every school year for longer than I've been alive. The difference here is that the counseling would be with someone more qualified than a frustrated administrator.
You don't want to work within the frame of discipline that the school requires? Withdraw your child. The same would go if you disagree with in-school suspension or detention, which are also a part of the same disciplinary plan that's been the standard in public schools since I was a child.
I don't think that this idea is perfect, but I do think that it has merit, much more so than suspension or detention for bad behavior, and immeasurably more so than ignoring signs of bad behavior in children because you can't prove it in a court of law.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
Further, troubled doesn't mean irresponsible parents. It could mean a parent in the military, the death, traumatic injury, or permanent disability of a parent, sibling, or close family member, or other childhood trauma unrelated to the perfectly responsible parents.
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Re: Like in all situations ...
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Re: Re: Re:
Same as with after work bullying. Your boss has no say in your private life. If it happens in the office, it's his deal, outside of the officehours, it's a job for the police.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
Most of the "bullying" studies I've read are asinine and basically involve what I would consider normal child like behavior (mild insults, minor physical things like pinching) mis-named bullying. I'm talking about real bullying. I'm talking about one child literally abusing another child over the course of weeks, months, or even years.
Those type of kids, the real actual problem kids, don't come from homes with "perfectly responsible parents."
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Second, lets say a boy makes a Facebook group about a girl being a slut and he constantly post mean messages about her. The same boy sends text messages to the girl (obscene but not threatening). Then at school he calls her a slut in the hallway.
Does the school punish the boy based only on the minor infraction of calling her a slut? Or does the fact that this is part of an ongoing form of harassment come into play? If they didn't go to the same school would this situation have occurred? What happens if one of the two kids is a ward of the state (ie no "responsible parent")?
To be clear, I don't think this is a black and white issue (i.e. schools are always responsible / schools should never be involved). I'm just playing devils advocate and asking you (and others) to spend more than 5 seconds thinking about this before forming an opinion which you vigorously defend.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
In addition, any parent who sues a school for discipling a child without consulting the administration, school board, and PTA first deserves to be publicly beaten. I'm not talking about a situation where the school disciplined your child in an inappropriate way (i.e. spanked them, or traumatized them); I'm talking about parents who sue over whether or not the school should have done anything at all. That is a matter which could have been easily resolved at the district level (I knew several parents in high school that brought up a suspension or detention to the school board and had it overturned.)
If you want details, lookup the story - its out there. His "little girl" is a "little bitch" and deserved a lot worse than what the school dished out. Now instead of learning to be less mean she has learned that daddy can get paid fat loot when her behavior is awful.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Is this conversation only about minor harassment?
If a kid is doing meth at home, and gets caught with a cigarette at school, should the school bust him for the meth too, or just the cigarette? I think it's appropriate to take such things into consideration, but the punishment should not be increased above the maximum normally allowable for whatever offense the child comitted at school.
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Re:
I'm guessing you don't have kids.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
Kids who bully don't usually have responsible parents - in many cases the parents are even worse than the child.
If the school administrators judge that the parents are not responsible, should they then step in and take over the role of disciplining that child for off-campus behavior?
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Punishment
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You're probably right about taking it up with the PTS, school board, etc, but the guy was a lawyer -- when the only tool you have is a hammer... -shrugs- I certainly don't think he should be publicly beaten because he took a legal matter (does the school have authority outside of school hours/grounds) to the civil courts.
And just because there was arguably a bad outcome (bitch remains a bitch) doesn't change the facts over whether or not the school was in the right.
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The Constitution
Our case was about the limits of governmental power. The posting on YouTube had nothing to do with the school whatsoever. You can read Judge Wilson's extensive decision, and you will get the picture.
Someone had to stand up for the Constitution, and that person was me.
Evan Cohen, Los Angeles
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
Insults and physical assault (like pinching) are bullying. Saying that it's not 'real' bullying is like saying that it's okay to pinch and slap your wife because it's not 'real' abuse. The pinching and insults are part of systematic bullying, and pretty much all children do it.
Plenty of children have responsible parents, and they still bully. And men who slap their wives are still abusers.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the boundaries?
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Re: The Constitution
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The Constitution
Furthermore, here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6LM6tWNoQo
What does this video, or the whole matter in general, have to do with school? NOTHING. It didn't happen at school. Students can't even log on to YouTube at school.
So, where is the power to suspend?
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Re: your missing the point of free public education
And people say school doesn't prepare kids for the real world.
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Re: The Constitution
http://lawyersusaonline.com/wp-files/pdfs/jc-v-beverly-hills-a.pdf
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Re: Re: The Constitution
The video was recoded, encouraged, and distributed by The Daughter, but she didn't say anything herself, only other students did. The school had all students involved "write a statement" about the video, and told The Daughter to remove it from YouTube and her home computer, and then suspended her for two days. no other students involved were punished.
It esentially boils down to the Daughter arguing that the school had no right to discipline her for off-campus speech which, hurtful though it may have been, this video was.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I think he was commenting on the irony of a music industry lawyer arguing that the government doesn't have a right to intrude in your private life, when he works for an industry that routinely argues that the government should do just that when it comes to things like file-sharing (and that they should do it on behalf of private business).
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What?
The case was about the limits of governmental power, that, is, can a student be punished for off-campus speech? The answer is NO.
In the other instance you bring up, the issue is whether or not you have the right to steal music, and whether, if you do, you can be sued for copyright infringement. It is not the government suing you; rather, it is the RIAA, a trade group. What does that have to do with the government OR free speech?
Get your facts straight.
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Re: What?
Obviously not. If you stole music, you might be charged with theft or shoplifting or something, but I'm sure you know that's totally different from copyright infringement, right?
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What?
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Re: What?
Around here, we will not believe you; we already know it's a lie.
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What?
Just one more copyright infringer mouthing off. Big deal.
I'm not here to debate the propriety of copyright law with miscreants, so this is going to have to be my last post.
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Re: What?
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Re: Re: What?
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Re: No.
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They Should Be Suspended for Bullying on Any Bus
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Re: No.
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