Microsoft, Who Supports Software Patents, Now Asks Supreme Court To Help It Against Patent Holder
from the live-by-the-patent... dept
Microsoft, who has become a strongly pro-software patent company (despite Bill Gates' old claim that patents would have harmed the software industry in the early days), is finding out (yet again) that such a stance can come back to bite you. We've already covered the somewhat ridiculous lawsuit that Microsoft faced from a small Canadian company, i4i, who claimed a patent (5,787,449) on an XML editing feature. Microsoft lost the lawsuit, and the court issued an injunction against Microsoft and claimed that the feature was worth an astounding $98 per copy where the feature was used. Microsoft appealed the case to CAFC who upheld the lower court ruling. Microsoft then appealed to have the entire CAFC rehear the case, and that got rejected. The only move left is to appeal to the Supreme Court that's exactly what Microsoft has now done.To be honest, I can't see the Supreme Court actually taking this case. Unlike some of the other patent cases that the Supremes have taken recently, there doesn't seem to be any big constitutional questions here. It's just a silly patent that Microsoft is on the hook for infringing. Perhaps rather than fighting this individual battle, Microsoft will finally realize that it's stance on patents is only going to do it more harm in the long run.
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Filed Under: editing, software patents, xml
Companies: i4i, microsoft
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Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
Thats what playing by the rules is all about, the rules FOR and AGAINST apply to all equally. Sometimes you win, and sometimes you dont.
But at least your 'in the game'.
Ofcourse, if you dont like the rules, dont play the game.
(there is no,,, "if you dont like the rules, play the game and cheat).
The rules, are the law, therefore 'cheat = crime'.
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
and the lawyers always win either way of course.
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
The rules are forever! Trying to change them is evil! You either play by the rules, or you don't play the game! You don't like the rules of living? Then stop living! Yeah!
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
But what if the other guy cheats but the referee doesn't see it?
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Re: Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
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Re: Re: Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
That was of course the reason why he "didn't see" it.
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Re: Re: Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/90455/don-henley-eliminate-or-drastically-limit-safe-harbor -provision/
Don forgotten Henley thinks is to hard to police his "property" and wants to abolish others rights, to make others do the work that should be his, after all the whole concept of property is based on the assumption that people can defend their property alone if necessary.
Now those muppets want to make everybody responsible. They don't have my sympathy.
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
Cheating using "the law" as a shield and excuse to be a dick will not end well for anyone.
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
Oh yeah, and that equation does not hold. Parking violations are not crimes. Opening a restaurant without a license isn't a crime. And patent infringements which are not even prosecuted by the state but instead settled as civil lawsuits are most definitely not crimes. Infringing a patent falls in the same bucket as breach of contract and such. Nothing to do with crime.
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Re: Its called "Playing by the rules", ALL the rules and laws.
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Pirates Of Silicon Valley
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0168122/
(worth renting)
i have to admit that i dont know how much is true and how much isn't, but since the movie is out and neither Steve jobs, nor bill gates nor Paul Allen managed to stop it makes me think its the truth.
if software patents existed in the earlier days then neither Microsoft nor Apple would be here today.
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Re:
20 June 1999 (USA)
It was a good movie for its time.
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Hoisted upon his own petard
Since Microsoft has worked so hard on building a patent portfolio that it can use to extract money from or destroy other companies, it is nice to see them on the other end of the stick.
Hopefully there is a point where this hurts them so much that they will ask congress to do away with software patents.
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whats that rolling stones tune?
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Stance doesn't matter
Microsoft's stance isn't hurting it at all. It's not like they wouldn't have been sued if they were against software patents.
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Actually this is a poster case...
Heck, it's all there at one of your favorite websites: http://en.swpat.org/wiki/I4i_v._Microsoft_(2009,_USA)
Sure, i4i could have tried to compete with Microsoft (hah!), but when your product adds a feature to MS Word, and MS Word starts offering the same feature for the same price with the added advantage of being better integrated, how do you even start to compete? "Out-innovate"? "First mover advantage"? How much can you "innovate" and "move" in a freaking XML editor?
Without a patent to protect their product, i4i would have been just another case of "embrace, extend, extinguish".
But then, Techdirt has to put an anti-patent spin on everything. Else how will it get the eyeballs of the FOSS/anti-copyright crowd?
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Re: Actually this is a poster case...
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Re: Actually this is a poster case...
Perhaps because the idea of separating out the XML for editing was an obvious idea that was already being worked on, and when Microsoft realized that they already were doing it, it seemed silly to talk to this company, no?
Doesn't seem like a good argument for patents at all. Seems like a terrible one.
Heck, it's all there at one of your favorite websites: http://en.swpat.org/wiki/I4i_v._Microsoft_(2009,_USA)
Honestly, I've never heard of that site before in my life. Why do you think it's "one of my favorites"?
Sure, i4i could have tried to compete with Microsoft (hah!)
Why is that so funny? Lots of companies competed successfully with Microsoft.
but when your product adds a feature to MS Word, and MS Word starts offering the same feature for the same price with the added advantage of being better integrated, how do you even start to compete?
Um. Perhaps that shows that i4i didn't create a business at all, but a minor feature. In which case they deserve to go out of business.
"Out-innovate"? "First mover advantage"? How much can you "innovate" and "move" in a freaking XML editor?
So we should prop up this one company that made something that even you admit is not a business?!?
Yikes.
Without a patent to protect their product, i4i would have been just another case of "embrace, extend, extinguish".
It's own damn fault for not building a business, and only building a feature. Welcome to capitalism.
But then, Techdirt has to put an anti-patent spin on everything. Else how will it get the eyeballs of the FOSS/anti-copyright crowd?
I love this line or argument. As if there's some giant rush of traffic for this sorta stuff. Hint: these posts don't get any traffic at all. I just think it's important.
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Re: Re: Actually this is a poster case...
The timeline makes that unlikely. The patent was filed in 1994. CustomXML (the offending feature) was released in Word 2003. Not really in the same time frame, I think. Apparently, MS talked to i4i a bunch about the technology in question, and of course, dirty laundry in the lawsuit included incriminating emails that ruled an independent invention defense out. In fact, that is what led to the really high damages.
Also, everything appears obvious in retrospect, but I honestly don't think the it was in 1994. Did they even have computers back then?
Um. Perhaps that shows that i4i didn't create a business at all, but a minor feature. In which case they deserve to go out of business.
Well, they found a gap in existing products and made a niche product out of it, that was actually selling copies. It may be a "minor feature", but what did you expect them to do? Write a whole word processing product to compete with MS Word on the basis of that minor feature? They saw an opportunity and they took it.
So we should prop up this one company that made something that even you admit is not a business?!?
Like I said, they found a niche and were making money out of it. Being a niche product does not make it "not a business". If they were making something people found useful and paid for, no matter how minor *you* think it is, it is still a business.
It's own damn fault for not building a business, and only building a feature. Welcome to capitalism.
They say monopolies are bad for a free markets. And yet here we have MS Word and its de facto monopoly on the word processor market. Fighting a de facto monopoly with a government-granted monopoly seems fair to me. With all kinds of unfair business practices, I think capitalism could use some help from the government.
Honestly, I've never heard of that site before in my life. Why do you think it's "one of my favorites"?
It was just a guess because it's pretty anti-software patent in nature, didn't really mean anything by it.
I love this line or argument. As if there's some giant rush of traffic for this sorta stuff. Hint: these posts don't get any traffic at all. I just think it's important.
I agree, that was uncalled for and detracts from the point. I'd rather not have written it.
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Re: Re: Re: Actually this is a poster case...
Of course, not that there is such a thing, legally... poor choice of words on my part.
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This article seems to be little more than a continuation of the anti-patent bias that permeates this site, and this is a shame because it does nothing to assist readers in understanding the actual case and why it came out the way it did. Large per copy damages? Evidence presented to the court, coupled with evidence of wilfull infringement. Injunction? eBay is more nuanced that the article here would have readers believe. CAFC? They analyzed the proceedings below and applied longstanding precedent that supported the trial judge's decision. To say this manifests a lack of common sense is wholly unwarranted.
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Re:
RUN!!!
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Who is this "Microsoft" of whom you speak?
Microsoft doesn't make the rules regarding patents, and if it had its way, the rules would probably be changed quite substantially. But whether or not "Microsoft" likes the rules, it is still going to try to make the best of any situation it finds. Sometimes that means trying to license patents it owns. Sometimes that means trying to defend against patent claims from others. At least Microsoft isn't a troll.
If you're playing a game, nobody cares whether you like or dislike a rule. You're expected to play by the rule regardless. You're expected to take advantage of that rule when possible, and you're expected to live with the consequences when that rule works against you. Taking advantage of the rule doesn't mean you agree with it, and having the rule work against you doesn't mean you disagree with it. It's just the way the system works.
As it stands, software patents are more-or-less what Microsoft has to deal with (or it could give up and stop doing business). Since this is the way the world happens to work right now, Microsoft tries to make the best of its situation. It tries to license its patents where possible (because the law allows it to do so) and it tries to defend itself from patent litigation where possible (because the law allows it to do so). Microsoft is trying to play with the cards it has been dealt. I'm not sure I understand why that's so wrong.
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