Houston Votes To Turn Off Red Light Cameras; City Officials Trying To Figure Out How To Cancel Contract
from the redlight-cameras-get-the-red-light dept
btr1701 alerts us to the news that Houston residents have voted to get rid of red light cameras around Houston. The vote was actually pretty close, with 52.82% wanting to ditch the cameras, and 47.18% wanting to keep them. Of course, the cameras might not disappear all that quickly. It turns out that the city -- which has made $44 million from the cameras -- has a contract with the camera provider that runs for another four years. There is a 120-day cancellation policy, so the absolute soonest that the cameras might turn off is four months or so in the future. However, the city is currently reviewing its "options." And, of course, any citation sent out while this is going on is still a valid citation, so Houston drivers shouldn't run around thinking that the cameras are already off.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: contracts, houston, red light cameras, speed cameras
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Thank Goodness
Its also interesting to note how the city reacted to the proposition - which was added to the ballot via a petition signed by thousands of people. The hospital systems were involved, attesting to the lives saved by the system. Sadly, the lives saved by such a system is outweighed by the true driving force, the revenue.
After the vote was finalized, the reation from the city was focused on the impact of the financial loss. "We are going to have to fire or furlow city employees" was the message, not "We are going to have to accept an increase of xx% in fatal collisions". Where did the safety argument go?
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Re: Thank Goodness
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Re: Thank Goodness
This was revenue that they didnt have recently. Did they really hire more people with the money they made from these cameras? Really?
This reminds me of the comedian who made the joke about a man who sells rape whistles. In the beginning, he does it to help prevent rape, but now that he is in business, he realizes that if rape goes away, he wont have a business.
I wonder if the town gets mad at its residents if they violate laws less. "Get out there and speed!!! We need that money!"
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Wretched cameras
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Wonder if it'll happen... and whether thay'll count properly if it does.
I think we in the UK probably have a much higher density of "enforcement" cameras than the US, and the rollout is allegedly for "public safety" but the statistics are usually dodgy. E.g. I think the standard is something like 3 accidents on a stretch of road or junction in a year merits a camera. Except that when you look "3 accidents" includes some nutter throwing himself in the road deliberately, or a dog being run over that caused a pileup - nothign to do with speed or jumping lights. Then the next year after the camera goes up there happens to be only 1 accident there (small number statistics after all being meaningless on the whole), they claim a 66% reduction in accidents due to the camera, usualy in a report released strangely enough by the contractor responsible for the cameras. Yeah right!
Even more than when/whether it happens, if it does it's to be hoped they monitor closely to see the effect of it on accidents. There was an experiment done in Swindon in the UK to turn off speed cameras to see if they really made a difference. I'd forgotten about it but this reminded me. Anecdotal evidence suggests the experiment that seems to have been done in good faith confirmed the theory that cameras did little for road safety.
On the other hand Oxfordshire (county nearby to the town of Swindon), who also switched theirs off are switching them back on it seems, though the reasons seem nebulous so it's not clear if they had a definitive objective in mind.
I'd be interested if someone has a fuller report of any of these experiments and US data would be interesting too if it's been tried before.
My own opinion is that these devices are much more firmly aimed at revenue generation than road safety and that if road safety were the issue, the same budget spent on these devices would have a far grater effect if spent on driver traning.
The UK driving test certainly tests little beyond basic mechanical control of the vehicle and basic theory, and as far as I know the US test is similar or perhaps worse. Training for situational awareness, reactions to emergency situations, skid control training, judging speed/distance/convergance times and similar things would seem to me a far better use of cash than putting up another device that purports to fix the syptoms rather than address the problem.
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Re: Wonder if it'll happen... and whether thay'll count properly if it does.
> out the clock until a regime change when they
> can "re-review" the policy, i.e. "decide teo
> keep the cash-cow".
Doesn't matter which regime is in office. The city can't just decide to ignore the results of an election in which the people voted to get rid of the cameras.
The results of that process are binding on the government.
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Re: Re: Wonder if it'll happen... and whether thay'll count properly if it does.
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Re: Re: Re: Wonder if it'll happen... and whether thay'll count properly if it does.
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Um, cancel and dismiss any ticket mailed out.
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The citations were *never* valid. Ignore them.
2nd, I read that 10% of Texans already have outstanding warrants. I doubt that these will be obeyed.
3rd, all legitimacy is now gone. No prosecutor should even consider bringing a case to court, nor should a judge allow it to continue, when the people have spoken.
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Re: The citations were *never* valid. Ignore them.
Sorry.
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Re: Re: The citations were *never* valid. Ignore them.
They're not crimes by being administrative violations. Most states decriminalized the routine offenses in their traffic codes years ago just so they could do things like take advantage of automated cameras.
If running a red light is criminal offense, the Constitution requires the state to prove the *person accused* committed the offense beyond a reasonable doubt. That means they have to have clear evidence that person was behind the wheel of the vehicle when the offense occurred.
If it's an administrative violation, the state can hold the registered owner of the vehicle responsible for it regardless of who is driving.
In doing this, the state has to give up some of its power, but it also gains a lot of flexibility and opportunity to raise revenue. They can't, for example, issue a warrant for your arrest for failure to pay an administrative violation. They could when it was a criminal offense. Now the most they can do is report you to a collection agency and the credit bureaus like anyone would do with a bad debt. And they can place a hold on renewing your registration. But they can't come arrest you or put points on your license for these violations.
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Re: Re: Re: The citations were *never* valid. Ignore them.
So your assumption is incorrect. In Houston, at the very least, the civil code covers traffic cameras and makes it a civil offense but they kept tickets issued by actual officers of the law completely separate and those are still criminal offenses. I suspect, without any evidence at all, that most municipalities have done the exact same thing are your above interpretation is completely incorrect.
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Re: Re: The citations were *never* valid. Ignore them.
> the law is called crime.
Unless it's part of the penal code, it's not a crime.
For example, where I live, it's prohibited to build on or renovate your home without a permit. If I built a patio in my back yard without a permit, that's hardly a crime. I can't be arrested and charged under the penal code for it. I'd just be required to pay a civil fee for violating an administrative requirement.
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Re: Re: Re: The citations were *never* valid. Ignore them.
Stay where you are at. Do not come here or you will most assuredly wind up in jail.
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Huh?
I don't see what options Houston has. They HAVE to stop sending out tickets. Now dealing with the red light camera company may be difficult, but they would just have to go into contract arbitration and probably pay the camera company to go away.
Of course depending on how the contract is written, the city might just be able to stop sending out the tickets, and since they would no longer be collecting revenue the % they give to the company remains the same (60% of 0 is 0) ... so no contract problem?
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I know, but....
I'm of two minds on this- Earlier, I received a ticket for not stopping fully before turning right at Richmond and Dunvale. I watched the video and found they were right. As indignant as I was, I did run the damned light, and did deserve the ticket. Now, I go out of my way now to not do this anymore, primarily at intersections that I know have cameras installed. So is it reasonable to say that these lousy things increase safety? Maybe. I haven't looked at the data yet beyond my own experience.
On the other hand, when the only concern voiced by city officials after the vote was a lament over lost revenue, I initially said piss on'm- I'm glad the vote went the way it did. This was, however, the only response published in the Chronicle. As (Ahem) reliable, neutral and comprehensive as our media is known to be, might they have only included that one remark (of several) in the story? I don't know. There may have been another, more public-safety focused statement that didn't make it.
So, assuming there is no abuse occurring (short yellows, etc)... Do you quit the whole thing because someone's making money from it? There are nuances to this issue that go beyond those raised by the pissed-off ambulance chaser that started this after getting his own ticket.
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Re: I know, but....
It doesn't matter if someone was making money or not the fact is the voters struck down the law and at this point the city is operating the cameras without a law to back them up. I know they want the revenue and I can appreciate that (have recently driven on Westhiemer they certainly need if) but the fact is that the law the cameras operated under is now null and void. They should shut off the cameras or at least cease issuing citations. To continue issuing citations is most likely illegal and there is already a class action in the works to get it stopped. I expect the class action will succeed pretty quickly and before the 120 days notice requirement is fulfilled. The city should have never signed a contract that did not include a provision for the voters to strike down the law. That provision is not the concern of those being issued citations now that the law has been struck down but rather for the city lawyers. Any ticket issued after the vote was certified needs to be declared null and void.
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Re:
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Contract
On another note, I wish people would realize that these cameras do more good than one thinks. At the very base of it all is that it reminds people that running red lights should not be a part of your daily routine.
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Wrong direction
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Red-Light Cameras in Houston
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wow
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Red-Light Cameras
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Why do politicians OK the cameras?
1. They think we like the cameras!
Last month a blog exposed Astroturf Lobbying in the red light cam Industry. (To read it, Google Rynski and Astroturf.) Astroturf Lobbying is when a PR firm manufactures a fake grassroots movement via comments posted on news articles like this one. The politicians read newspapers and the web, just like anyone else. They see the pro-camera comments, assume they represent genuine public support, and so they vote to install cameras.
2. Politicians - and their extended family - are immune to the tickets.
In California 1.5 million privately-owned cars have plate numbers protected from easy look up, effectively invisible to agencies trying to process red light camera violations. Such "protected plate" lists exist in other states, too. (In CA the list includes local politicians, bureaucrats, retired cops, other govt. employees, and their families and ADULT children! Unbelievable? Read Cal. Veh. Code 1808.4.) Someone should check to see who and how many are 'protected,' in each state.
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idiots that don't know how techdirt works...
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red light cameras
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Bad Move!
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cameras
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Re: cameras
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cameras
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Re:
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revenue
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Victory!
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res light camera
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res light camera
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