Google: Major Labels Got In The Way Of Cool Features In Google Music
from the anti-innovation dept
Earlier this morning, we wrote about the expectation that Google would be launching a music locker without first getting licenses from the labels. That's now been confirmed and officially launched (though, still limited to US users by invitation only, but it sounds like that will be expanded rapidly). I'm at the conference where Google announced this, and there's a fair bit of discussion about the legality of the service. At the press briefing afterwards, Google was clear: it was the major labels who responded with "unreasonable and unsustainable terms." They also noted that if they had abided by the terms offered by the labels, they would be offering a service that wasn't compelling. Other reports note that Google really wanted to offer some more innovative features, such as letting users "beam" music to their account by showing they had copies of it, without uploading it. At the press briefing, Google effectively admitted this by saying that it could enable that feature "with proper agreements." Separately, Google made it clear that, although the major labels were the issue, the indie labels and artists they spoke to directly were all excited about the offering. Indeed, the offering itself does appear to be a lot slicker than Amazon's music locker service, which is a bit surprising. I was expecting, in typical Google fashion, that it would appear pretty barebones, but instead it looks fairly advanced.Separately, in another question concerning how Google would deal with the fact that some people will certainly upload tracks that were obtained through unauthorized means, Google first pointed out that the terms require people to only upload lawfully acquired music... but then also claimed that it would "respond appropriately to rightsholders who believe their rights were violated." That seems like a strange statement. I imagine it means the company will follow through on takedown requests... but how would the rightsholder ever know? If this is a private music locker, then the only person who should have access is the user. I'm kind of wondering if that statement was made just to make a "we're legal!" statement, without recognizing that such a situation doesn't seem to make much sense.
The whole major label situation is yet another example of fear driving the record labels, rather than opportunity and innovation. Again, these music lockers are really just a way to make the consumers' music experience better. It's an opportunity to make the music more valuable and to open up more opportunities for copyright holders to make money, but rather than embracing it, the labels make ridiculous demands to try to clamp down on the usefulness. So, instead, the industry moves forward in spite of their complaints, rather than with the majors.
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Filed Under: copyright, licenses, music locker
Companies: google
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You can't negotiate with crazy people
They will then wake up and smell the Internet and realize they could have been a big part of it.
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Re: You can't negotiate with crazy people
They balked, and now they're paying the price.
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The labels need to embrace technology
Mandatory brain implant chips inserted at birth. Whenever you hear any copyrighted music, your credit card is automatically charged.
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Re: The labels need to embrace technology
Don't forget that if you heard it in a public place, thats a seperate license. If you were reciting the lyrics to yourself, you are going to need a license for that. What, you were singing too? Well now you owe us performance royalties as well. What, you walked into a coffee house while still singing? Now the coffee house owes us. Since you were singing along, out loud, now everyone in the coffee house owes us.
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Re: Re: The labels need to embrace technology
Souls will also be considered negotiable.
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Re: Re: The labels need to embrace technology
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My first thought after hearing google music locker was how will they prove that you own or don't legally own the music?
How will they regulate someone making a dummy account and sharing it with their friends?
Would they prevent multiple users not be able to stream simultaneously, even though some couples/married share 1 email, and only purchase their music once.
lol @ we promise to take down music, as if you could ever know who, statement.
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Re:
Either way, "Big Music" will have to be drug kicking and screaming out of the late 90's(digital downloads) and into the 2010's before they finally acquiesce and allow people to enjoy their product.
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Still wondering how great any music locker is?
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Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
I know myself and many others often just use youtube to play music we want on our phones or at work.(at least 20 youtube songs a day)(often the same ones, I at least try to keep the window open(multiple tabs) to keep cached. to prevent bandwidth burn)
A streamed mp3 is far far more efficient then restreaming the same youtube video everyday.
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Re: Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
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Re: Re: Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
Some places will always have everything locked down, that is fine with me. But in the areas that it's not, then it clearly is a major advantage.
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Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
The lack of desire for ISPs to upgrade their networks should never be a reason to hold back innovation.
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Re: Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
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Re: Re: Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
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Re: Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
I'm not saying hold back innovation, I'm just saying at this point in time.. what is the use of it? And yes, I block YouTube also on my network. I have a iPod, I have a iPhone and if there isn't something of my own music I don't want to listen to I have Pandora.
I plug my iPhone or iPod into my stereo to listen to it, using Home Sharing to listen to my full library on my iMac. And you would STILL need a computer or device hooked up to your stereo to listen to your music through the cloud.
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Re: Re: Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
And as for needing a computer attached; Android tablets and phones, old hardware with limited space, Windows Thin, Google Chrome OS, Google TV, devices designed for this like the Pandora appliance (If only I could find that link again, it was pretty cool).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Still wondering how great any music locker is?
Myself, I don't feel the future is in music (or other media) lockers.. it's in streaming. Although Netflix is flirting with making me cancel it. (I would use it on my laptop (Ubuntu) and my phone (Android) and my TV (Xbox), but they foolishly block the former two) But I digress; The point is: Why would I spend $1000/yr for 1TB of space via one of these services when I can get Movies (netflix) and TV (Hulu) and Music (Grooveshark for me, since I snagged a $20/yr deal-- but there are many others) for a fraction or that, totaling far larger than 1TB?
Man, that was one big rambling mess, wasn't it? :)
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Of course it could be cooler
Google has a habit of assuming that it can just do whatever it wants with the content. It makes me wonder how they think they're different from MP3.com. Didn't that company try the same thing and didn't that company get shot to bits?
Given that the book settlement didn't work out the way they wanted, I wonder what makes them think this will work out.
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
Not to mention anti-trust issues.
Btw, WMG's business is up; I thought you bozos said all the majors were dying?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/may/10/warner-music-group-revenues-up
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
Moreover, WMG is the largest briber of Congresscritters in the Content industry, by an order of magnitude, in order to cry that 'piracy is killing us all!' I think someone might be telling a porkie pie.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
You're about as sharp as a bowling ball, aren't you?
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
"As of 31 March, Warner Music held a cash balance of $319m with total debt of $1.95bn and net debt of $1.63bn."
From what I read in that article. They are hemoraging over $100 million USD a year. It doesn't matter if you have revenue gains if your company is losing money.
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
I have to *buy* the music before I can upload it to Google Music. If Google wants to give me free space in the cloud for music (and they do, I can upload anything to Google Docs) and then give me a way to stream it to my devices (as opposed to downloading it and then listening, as I can already do, what have they done wrong? The artists have already been paid. How many times should they get paid before I can listen to my music how I want in your world?
I look forward to your logical and well-reasoned response.
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
My, optimistic aren't we?
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
But Mike is implying that they'll wink, wink and nudge, nudge when people upload any old content. Then they'll scrutinize any DMCA takedown notice and make the content creators jump through endless hoops. Sounds like a good way to make friends.
I want to like Google. I admire many things that they do. But listening to Mike put a spin on the deal makes me think they're mighty sleezy.
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
What I see is him reporting that Google had innovative ideas, and the music industry wouldn't allow it.
It also sounds like the music industry priced themselves right out of a deal to sell online music.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
He's asking a legitimate question.
If Joe Pirate uploaded a pirated mp3, how would Google know that it was pirated?
How would the RIAA know the track had ever been uploaded?
How would the RIAA know that Joe Pirate had uploaded it?
But that's not so different from this case: if Joe Pirate put the pirated CD under his mattress in his apartment, how would the RIAA ever know about that?
Mikes questions apply the same to how would Joe Pirate's landlord respond to such an accusation? Search Joe's apartment without a warrant? How would the RIAA ever know about the CD under the mattress to begin with?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
However, what Mike is suggesting is that Google will have no practical way of enforcing said rule without scrutinizing the content that each user uploads, which in turn essentially violates the users' right to privacy, which in turn will get the privacy advocates up-in-arms. Mike is suggesting that Google's statement is toothless and merely a CYA tactic.
Likewise, since the user is the only one who will presumably have access to the uploaded content, the labels will have no way to determine if any unlicensed content is uploaded, so they have no way to seek legal recourse.
Of course, it is worth noting that in the US, it is not illegal to posess unlicensed copyrighted material, though it does equate to copyright infringement if you distribute said content without a license. Since Google's cloud service is designed to be accessible to a single user, distribution does not seem to apply.
You might be able to argue that distribution is technically possible if a user shares login information with others, though it seems rather unlikely that anyone will be willing to open up their account information to the masses the way content is shared via P2P and torrents; therefore the kind of large scale infringement that the industry hates and fears seems impractical via this service--especially when the currently available system of torrents is so much more efficient.
But, I digress...any reasonable person can see that Mike was simply wondering about how enforcement of such a rule would balance with privacy rights in a service such as this.
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
Hey Mike Masnick, when are you going to pay MusiCares the $500 you owe them?
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
you are assuming that the Recording Industry has actually payed the artist in the first place..
don't you understand that they need to have at least [pick some arbitrary number between 2 and infinity] sales of the same exact product to the same entity before they can even consider paying the artist.
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Oh goodie, the property analogy again!
If the store were a place that held my legally purchased goods for me, I would expect to be able to take them back whenever I want.
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Re: Oh goodie, the property analogy again!
Detinue sur trover
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
You know what, someone took the idea of not waiting in line and turned it into a really profitable new business. Perhaps you heard of Amazon? Of course, I suppose the brick and mortal stores don't like them very much because they have a hard time competing with them - we should make them illegal. *eyeroll*
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
What he was talking about was buying things online, with or without the one click patent. Even without one-click, buying online is vastly faster and more convenient than waiting in line.
So his example is a good example.
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
Please explain what exactly I'm "taking" when I rip a CD I own and upload those tracks to Google's service where only I have access to them? What am I "taking" when I upload a track I've legally purchased from Amazon's MP3 service?
Google has a habit of assuming that it can just do whatever it wants with the content.
Google is doing nothing with the content here. The user, who already has the content is uploading it. Google is just providing a service that is perfectly legal. If you want to claim it is illegal, please cite specific applicable laws and cases.
It makes me wonder how they think they're different from MP3.com. Didn't that company try the same thing and didn't that company get shot to bits?
Weren't they the Russian company who was selling MP3s for cheap? Vastly different.
Given that the book settlement didn't work out the way they wanted, I wonder what makes them think this will work out.
The book settlement went bad when Google caved in to the ridiculous demands of the publishers. If Google had fought that case, they'd most likely be much better off. Looks like they're learning. Also, again, vastly different case.
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
You are confusing mp3.com and allofmp3. MP3.com versus AllOfMP3.
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
You are confusing MP3.com and AllOfMP3. Links to Wikipedia on my other comment once the moderators approve it.
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
Ok, still different circumstances.
Looks like MP3.com allowed a user to pop a CD into their drive, a program would determine what CD it was (probably some hash value), then allow streaming from a single copy that MP3.com made themselves.
Even all that being said, judge made a bad ruling. MP3.com settled before damages were awarded and did not appeal.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
The reason they are still around is because yes judges do still make bad rulings.. also in a jurisdiction that prides itself on due process (which it seems the likes of RIAA/MPAA et.al wish was dead) the ability of the accused to question any errors that they think may have occured is a right of every person.
For you using a sarcastic term to refer to so called 'bad judgements' in this context is by definition a sophism itself
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Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
And someone else has already explained about MP3.com. Why don't you do some research and see how that case worked out since you're asking for a reference to case law. It wasn't pretty.
And while you're at it, look at the details of the book settlement. It's not over yet, but it only got close to a settlement when Google started working with the publishers. If they didn't cave in, they would be looking at multi-trillion dollars in damages.
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
They gave up and settled before appealing. Things usually don't end up pretty when you settle with someone who is extorting money from you.
Also, that case doesn't apply here. MP3.com was streaming from a single file to anyone who uploaded the hash value. Google is simply giving you your own space and allowing you to stream what you put there.
And while you're at it, look at the details of the book settlement.
I have been, thanks. Google had a very strong fair use case when the publishers first threw their hissy fit. By trying to work with them, the current agreement turned into a monstrosity chock full of anti-competitive features, and that's why its being rejected.
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Re: Re: Re: Of course it could be cooler
All google is saying they would use their content recognition technology the industry made them make for google to scan the file. If it's already uploaded, it's more efficient to use those bits than to make another copy of the same bits.
There's no difference of allowing a user access to the same bits they own or making them upload their own copy. It's just pure waste of resources based on people who don't comprehend the underlying tech.
Maybe we can add that the RIAA hates the environment to their list of perceived evils since they don't allow for efficient data centers :)
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
They're not trying to scan the entire history of music and make every song searchable, like with the book thing.
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
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Re: Of course it could be cooler
It will be wonderful to see those thieves that bought CD's but are storing them in their lockers and not paying for the privilege to be finally confronted.
I also want to see, music industry workers stopping people in the street at random to search their iPods and cellphones for stolen goods.
Oh wait, you can't do that, there is that 4th amendment thingy, and I wonder when people will realize that it also applies to the virtual world.
People wouldn't accept that kind of behavior in real life what makes you think people will comply with absurd laws in the virtual space?
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These people are crazy. They would turn the entire world into a police state in order to protect their ability to charge monopoly rents. They would have no moral or ethical hesitation about it.
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Hell yes! I want to get an account full of music just by POSTing forged SHA-1 hashes to an URL. Bitzi will finally be useful!
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Idiocy
I really hate waiting in line at the store to pay, but it seems to be what we need to do. The store could be so much cooler if we could just take whatever
we want.
What does that argument has to do with piracy?
Google is not providing the music to the public but a service letting people store their own presumably bought music.
Why should the labels be paid twice first by the consumer and then by Google?
Should manufacturers of hard disks and cloud services also pay the labels for selling a product enabling the storage of copyrighted works?
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Re: Idiocy
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Re: Idiocy
If you are in spain, canada, etc have fees associated with CD's, Hard drives, etc.
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Re: Re: Idiocy
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One more thing..
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AC/DC
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Re: AC/DC
In most cases, its the rights holder that has the final say depending on how the contract was worded. That would be the labels and not the artists.
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Re: Re: AC/DC
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Re: Re: Re: AC/DC
Put a price on it and release it later, why can't people do that?
Not to mention the other revenue streams that exist like live gigs and original merch and endorsements.
How many years of 100$ million dollars one needs to get paid?
Why is copyright nearing 200 years in length?
Why is copyright so absurd? If it was applied to real life things it would be ridiculous and nobody would take it serious, what makes that crap valid?
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Re: AC/DC
Morally speaking, the RIAA wouldn't get payed if I upload songs from an independent band. Yet they want money for it and they do get payed in other mediums.
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Re: Re: AC/DC
For music CD's: Format shifting here is quite legal, time shifting is legal, removing region coding by any means is very legal, backing up Cd's for private use is very legal, and removing any copy protection to enable backing up is very legal too.
I'm guessing Australia will be a bad bad person on the Special 301 report soon ;)
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Re: AC/DC
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Re: AC/DC
And if the bands say "hey, you shouldn't be able to sell your used CDs in second-hand stores", does that mean that such stores are infringing copyright?
A stupid argument is a stupid argument, regardless of who's using it.
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Re: AC/DC
It was paid already, he should not have any more control over it, just like everything else in life.
Can you imagine, the builder of your home coming to say to you what you could or could not do with what you bought?
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Amazon has the ability to terminate your account if
your usage is "substantially" above normal, and the ability to go through your stuff "as [they] determine is necessary to provide the Service or comply
with applicable law."
So in other words, you have no right to privacy because the *possibility* of legal liability intensivizes unwarned inspection based not on proof but on purely arbitrary "above normal" usage solely within Amazon's discretion.
I have 500+ cds both new and used, and would likely trigger that clause.
How am I going to prove that I own the cds? Credit card and bank statements don't help if the cd was bought from a friend or from (irony alert) Amazon's resellers.
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Amazon has the ability to terminate your account if
your usage is "substantially" above normal, and the ability to go through your stuff "as [they] determine is necessary to provide the Service or comply
with applicable law."
So in other words, you have no right to privacy because the *possibility* of legal liability intensivizes unwarned inspection based not on proof but on purely arbitrary "above normal" usage solely within Amazon's discretion.
I have 500+ cds both new and used, and would likely trigger that clause.
How am I going to prove that I own the cds? Credit card and bank statements don't help if the cd was bought from a friend or from (irony alert) Amazon's resellers.
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Re:
You don't even have to be guilty to have this impact you dramatically, you can be accused of piracy or someone mistakenly (or maliciously) flagged you, and you are out of a lot of potential data.
Now extrapolate this to a Google account that is a manager of a Google Apps account, that manages hundreds of people on a medium sized business. What happens when that manager loses his/her account and notorious Google Customer Service is not there?
Linux --and funnily enough MICROSOFT (client only, not cloud of course)-- start to sound a lot better now, eh?
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I think Google knows
I think Google understands completely that the situation doesn't make much sense. Unless we're all missing something where they'll have to reveal all the songs in a persons locker at every simple request or something. I'd bet Google made that statement for the idiot lawyers foaming at the mouth looking for a way to take this service down... maybe calm them down a bit because there's a way to police it, and then keep them busy by trying to actually find out how that way to police it works (it wouldn't, but could take a while for Lawyers to figure that out haha).
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Re: I think Google knows
Sure they Gym may have the right to search your locker, but in practice they don't. I suppose someone could come in saying that someone stole something and its in one of the lockers, can you please search them all?
Even if the RIAA knew what person uploaded what track (which they don't) how can the RIAA know it isn't a properly licensed purchased track from, say, Amazon or iTunes?
If the RIAA cannot know whether a track is properly licensed, then how could Google possibly know?
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Re: Re: I think Google knows
Which is really absurd considering the small financial size of the labels.
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Re: Re: Re: I think Google knows
We believe that one or more users of Google Music has uploaded pirated content?
Wow, that's specific. That's like going to the landlord of an apartment building and saying:
We believe that one or more tenants of Foobar Apartments has pirated content on one or more optical disks, hard drives, or portable devices.
Please give us blanket authority to search the entire apartment complex. After all, someone surely must have at least one pirated song somewhere in that complex.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I think Google knows
That's how they'd do it, pay the right people enough money. It's not right, but it's happening. We can only hope Google slaps them back down to reality when they try it.
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Blanket licensing
If you are in spain, canada, etc have fees associated with CD's, Hard drives, etc.
Yes, but the bargain is that downloading and possession of copyrighted works for noncommercial purposes is legal.
Applying copyright law to noncommercial users simply doesn't make sense.
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Re:
The ***A et al need these copy protection laws to continue their efforts to advance their GIM power on Internet distribution as well (and, in many instances, they have done a pretty good job. Some businesses are afraid to use CC licensed content because they may later find out that the content isn't really CC licensed and it was 'mistakenly' uploaded as such). That's another reason why these laws need to be abolished.
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Blanket licensing
but
bands ARE Artists. Artists to me have the final say, no matter what the fans want.
But whether I want to store my music in a private cyber locker is simply not their business because I have already paid for the music.
ACDC could not break down my door and sue me for ripping my music to my hard disk. Why should they have the final say over *how* and *where* I listen to the music which I have already paid for.
The purpose of copyright is not granting artists a moral right but the promotion of science and art.
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Re: Blanket licensing
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Google/Apple/Microsoft collectively buying the labels and splitting the companies off as a single separate entity can work to all their benefits, and cut out negotiations and middlemen at the same time. The artists will be happy because they will get a cut still, the big IT players will be happy because it locks customers into their ecosystems at very minimal costs.
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Re:
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Re: Re:
I don't believe this is true. I'm pretty sure that YouTube has been profitable for quite some time now.
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Re: Re: Re:
Typical of IP maximists. Their brains are obsolete.
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Re:
1. Rapidshare, etc doesn't stream your content down to your headphones.
2. Your Google Music locker is exclusively yours. It's not designed for sharing. It may not even be possible to share unless you share your login credentials. It would be fairly obvious (to Google) if one locker was being accessed from a large number of locations, and more content was being streamed than one person could listen to.
I'm a lot more sure of (1) than I am of (2).
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Re:
Extremely different. Rapidshare and Hotfile let people store files that anyone can then access. That's it.
These music lockers -- Google, Amazon, MP3tunes and others like it -- are really providing a personal service. They let you *store* your own music and offer a streaming front end. No one else can access the music, and even you are unable to download your music (I think that's true for all of them... MP3Tunes might let you redownload your own music).
In other words, Rapidshare and Hotfile are designed to share files.
Amazon and Google Music are designed to let *you* host *your* own music remotely and then let you and only you listen to it via a streaming interface.
So they're very different.
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I won't ever buy the same music twice. I am a paying music industry customer, but I'm no fool.
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[ link to this | view in chronology ]