Oh Look, The Overall Music Industry In Canada Has Been Growing As Well...
from the and-so-it-goes... dept
We've discussed many, many times how the recording industry is merely a subset of the music industry, and it's quite unfortunate that many (including in the press and among politicians) seem to think that the recording industry is the music industry. However, if you actually take a look at the larger view, you quickly realize that almost every other part of the music industry has been doing quite well over the past decade. It's really just the recording industry part that's struggled. In fact, we've pointed to studies covering the UK, Sweden, Sweden and Norway which have all seen their overall music industry grow.Even more importantly, in all of those, musicians themselves were making a lot more money than before. That's because the shift in the industry was towards markets and business models where the artists were able to collect the money, rather than a gatekeeper who kept most of it (i.e., the record labels). In an excellent article for the Toronto Globe and Mail, by professor Dwayne Winseck, which details all the problems with the copyright reform proposals in Canada, Winseck also does the same analysis for Canada, and once again finds that pretty much every other area of the music industry is growing:
As Winseck notes:
Ultimately, only once the myth that the music industry is in peril, and that it is the canary in the coalshaft for all media, is discarded will we get copyright laws fit for these digital times.
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Filed Under: canada, copyright, copyright reform, growing, music industry
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These recording organisation work hard doing... hmm what do they do again?
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These recording organisation work hard doing... hmm what do they do again?
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Because that segment gives the gatekeeper the greatest margins
"And why do politicians and the press buy this false story that the industry is in trouble? "
Because they are stupid
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The politicians - because they are bought and paid for.
The press - because they are in the same business, content sales.
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No, because their income depends on buying into this false story. They're paid to be ignorant mouthpieces that parrot whatever they are told to say.
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if you are stupid cause someone pays you to be or because your brain doesnt work, you are still stupid.
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." -Kurt Vonnegut
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So either they act stupid even though they know the truth, or they are willfully ignorant and refuse to learn because, well for whatever reason i am sure there are many. Ignorance is still stupidity its just stupidity caused by never being given knowledge as opposed to being so stupid you can't retain or comprehend the knowledge
we are arguing semantics but i see your point. Its not that they are too stupid to understand, its that they refuse to learn or feign ignorance and act as if they don't know when they do.
Ill will then again argue my point, pretending to be stupid = being stupid.
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That's actually not true. Ignorant basically means "uneducated" or "uninformed", in regards to a particular topic. Here's the definition from dictionary.com:
ig·no·rant
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
It is often thought to be an insult, but it really isn't. There are numerous things I am ignorant of, such as the "quantum physics" example given in the definition above. No insult there, I just don't know jack about that topic and I'm ok with that.
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I used to think that they were wrong in that belief - but then along came the UK AV referendum where the "no" campaign won a spectacular victory based on the premise "you're too stupid to vote with a numbered preference".
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I had an argument like this
I tried to explain how he was wrong, but he didn't listen. He only cared about the loss of a job. I have since given up on humanity.
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He's one of the smartest guys I know, if he can't figure this out, what hope is left for the majority?
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There's a lot of upgrading needed here in the US and it won't just be as simple as putting cable in the ground and lay off your work force. As network capacity increases, so will usage as new services learn to use it, resulting in more demand for bigger networks. It will increase exponentially, if we can get the incumbent service providers to stop clinging on to the past.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I had an argument like this
But truck drivers don't know tier 3 networking.
(Not playing devil's advocate)
It's so hard to argue like this since I know how easily my arguments are debunked.
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Having said that, I DO think we have a duty to look after those whose current jobs are lost, during the transitional period. The mistake we make is to allow the free market to create victims - tarnishing its image.
The motto should be "competition between ideas, co-operation between people."
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They don't need to know tier 3 networking, they need to know how to drive the truck & deliver packages. Somebody still has to deliver all those new routers, cables, servers, etc.
Whoa! Look how we went full circle there! It's almost like we're now creating new jobs.
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Re: Re: Re: I had an argument like this
Serious answer:
..and if my company no longer has to pay hundreds of people to ship things (indirectly or directly) then I now have much more money to create new jobs.
Non-serious Answer:
..and if my company no longer has to pay hundreds of people to ship things (indirectly or directly) then I can pass that savings on to the customer, who will then have more money to buy beer. More people buying beer means more people moving beer around, which stabilizes the shipping industry.
Shoot, my non-serious answer proves my point, too. Ah well.
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Whew. That was a close one.
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Since the increase in digital communications my usage of overland and international shipping has increased several hundred percent. I buy laptop batteries from China, truck parts from Texas, and computer parts from Ontario just in the past few weeks. Prior to ubiquitous Internet shopping I used couriers once every couple of years.
Sure, game sales are increasingly distributed by being downloaded on-line, but I am sure if a real study was made (like the example in the article) it would be shown that the Internet has increased the use of shipping services.
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Reasoning: Steam has gotten a helluva lot better with digital distribution. Now, you can get games over Steam far quicker than you can get them at Wal-Mart.
EA used to dominate the retail market. Somewhere a game such as Half-Life had to fight for shelf space along with the newest Madden.
Finally, your manager is basically saying he wants Steam or Kongregate to go out of business because they are finding a niche and seeking to fill it with quality games.
Valve took our jobs!
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Why hasn't the RIAA used that argument yet? "Piracy is killing the shipping industry."
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Us gamers can spot each other a mile away. :p
"Piracy is killing the shipping industry."
Dude, they already have the corn farmers on their side. The shipping industry they just have everyone's laptop be confiscated at the border. I don't think they need anymore help. >_>
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Don't give them ideas!
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So let them, we can enjoy making fun of them.
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no matter how big digital purchases get there will always be box copies, people like their manuals and maps and boxes and collectors edition special items.
seems to be pulling threads with your argument.
on the overall idea of the thread. I would say the digital market has increased the revenue of the shipping business. I am just thinking of all the shit sold over Amazon or Ebay. Even if the market for digital versions of goods continues to grow (books, music, movies, games) there is still plenty of physical shit that needs shipping, and I doubt games and movies and books sold will ever be 100% digital.
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That Amazon and Ebay argument was a damn good one. I'll have to remember it. Finite goods, that's where the money is.
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Unless you realize that internet access is becoming more ubiquitous every day. So today box copies may be necessary, but that will not hold true for long.
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you can buy a digital version and can print most of that out, but whats better a piece of paper with a map printed on it or a cloth map? also the figurines and night vision goggles and all that stuff isnt going away, people like it and they make good money on selling it.
Although I know alot of people, myself included, dont really care about the physical goods. So like I said someday I think the digital versions of this type of good will out sell the physical version but I don't see the physical version completely disappearing.
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Ehhh... not quite. The gatekeepers are still alive and strong in the areas where the "growth" is happening. Publishing has increased because more music is licensed to film, TV, and ads, but that money isn't necessarily making it to artists. Besides the usual publishing firms that have always taken cuts, you now have the placement companies taking enormous cuts. Film and TV music coordinators aren't out there exploring the internet and indie charts for music; a band pays *a lot* of money to have their music pitched for placement.
Concerts are another case where gatekeepers like the ticketing companies, promotion firms, and the firms that place acts together for tours are taken larger and larger percentages. Tours are often pay-to-play for small bands; a lot of headliners increased revenue comes from the money the opening act pays for the "privilege" of opening for a big name.
So maybe the industry is growing, but it's not at all a paradise for the artists. In this instance, I'd almost prefer labels, since they do at least give money to bands to make new music. Ticketmaster, et al does no such thing.
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More companies are becoming adept at finding niches.
I'm sure that you'll see even Ticketmaster going down and becoming competitive. It just takes time.
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Just a little trend based on this chart.
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Re: Just a little trend based on this chart.
It's just resting.
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Re: Re: Just a little trend based on this chart.
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It's interesting that I find this here on TD when I just finished reading this:
http://www.cringely.com/2011/05/netflix-too-big-to-fail/
It seems that all traditional media is becoming obsolete. Broadcast TV, analog phone, cable TV, Sat TV, and even traditional cellular phones will eventually be surpassed by services that ride on the back of the internet. There will eventually be no "data" package to add to your mobile service, data will be your mobile service. Pay per view will be gone and replaced with Net Flix style streaming video.
Oh, let's not forget music! It's already changing and the old way is already obsolete! Why listen to the radio, when you can just plug your mobile media player/phone into your aux jack in your car and listen to ad-free entertainment all the way to work? Even streaming could work here, retaining access to NPR for those that can't let go of their live media.
Now, if science could just figure out quantum entanglement, we could see infinitely faster service from anywhere in the universe!
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Lets hope our soon to be discovered alien overlords never developed the concept of copyright.
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Overall Music industry grows DESPITE recording industry
I notice Internet and Mobile is climbing the fastest and is now equal to dinosaurs-R-us.
At some point when the red line for buggy whips goes to zero and can drop no further, I wonder what the overall growth will finally look like?
That will be a nice day!
Either no more trolls, or trolls just lamenting over something that no longer matters.
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I don't know, so why bother making albums, eh? Sales are going down according to that chart, so I guess people don't care and just want to consume music via live shows.
You guys go ahead and get the word out about this, and we'll ask bands to skip recording and just play shows instead.
Sound good?
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So if people aren't going to pay for albums and then not go to the shows, seems pointless to record albums.
We'll just stick to the live shows. Obviously you people don't value the recorded works, right?
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The point is if people spend less on cds they are still funneling an equal amount of money into the music industry, whether thats live shows or digital sales the same amount of money is being spent on music.
of course you could stop recording albums in studio and do something like this / http://www.owlandbear.com/wilco-archive/ / allow fans to hook to your soundboard and record and release your shows for free, and then still release albums because you are in it for the fans and the music not because you are a money grubbing dbag who doesnt want to work for a living
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Your attempt to invalidate the argument by making it look stupid fails because you misconstrued the opposing argument, making you look stupid instead.
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Inaccurate
I'd urge you to research the music industry more.
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Re: Inaccurate
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Re: Inaccurate
I'd urge you to RTFA.
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Re: Inaccurate
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Struggling concert industry? Source?
Bands are struggling on the road? Citation needed.
You're the only one submitting opinions without factual support and lacking of research. I'd urge you to back up your opinions with data more.
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Re: Inaccurate
Now, you might want to go back and reread the article that points to someone else's research. This isn't Mike's research, just his commentary on it.
Better yet!
[citation needed]
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Re: Inaccurate
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Re: Inaccurate
First, you pick publishing and then present projections without sources or data. Then you argue about concerts and bands on the road struggling.
Bands have always struggled on the road. The life is brutal. My girlfriend's brother literally starved to the point of illness in the late 1970's as a lead guitarist of a club band even though they were relatively successful and worked steadily for over a year.
You also skip over the tiny fact of the world just barely recovering (and maybe not) from the biggest depression since 1930. How wouldn't the concert industry not suffer?
You should realize this is not a chat site for a group of politicians or media hacks that head bob to anything recording industry shills say.
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If you stop gaming on xbox and switch to PC you can probably get most of the rest of your preorders from Steam, digital w a preload
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Labels are not dumb. At this point in time they underwrite the lion's share of music being provided to the consuming public. If they lose revenue in one area you can be sure they will look elsewhere to cover the decline in revenue.
If nothing else, this graph suggests to me the labels will surely turn their attention to 360 contracts and take a much more active role that covers the entire and useful life cycle of the performers they have signed.
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1988?? So if they big decline is between 1988 and 1998 then it certainly wouldnt be the fault of piracy. Piracy didnt gain legs till the late 90s. Dial up piracy, really? Napster came out in 1999 so I think that is why they start where they do, that is considered by most to be the dawn of mass piracy.
But if you have some figure from 1988 of them makeing 1.6 billion or something I would love to see your source.
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I'd like to see actual 2010 concert revenue
Another question I have about the graph (maybe it was already answered somewhere). It shows mobile devices. Does this mean the sale of hardware?
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Re: I'd like to see actual 2010 concert revenue
I believe mobile devices meaning downloads via services like iTunes into protable MP3 players.
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Re: Re: I'd like to see actual 2010 concert revenue
And what the overall figure shows is that music industry income is the same as it was in 2004.
I think music spending has been and will continue to be hit by the overall economy. More money going to necessities and less going to discretionary spending. That's why I am particularly interested in concert income. I don't think it will be a growth industry.
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Want did not go down was the population, disposable income, employment, or many, or GDP or inflation.
Again, there is just no way you can claim 'growth' of a market based on that graph of statistics.
Do you also not the massive decline in recorded music with the incline in 'internet/mobile'. ?
The direct correlation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I'd like to see actual 2010 concert revenue
The direct correlation."
Now that is some english sir. Its like poetry so beautiful. Too bad it doesnt make a lick of sense.
"Want did not go down was the population, disposable income, employment, or many, or GDP or inflation."
Your right want did not go down, but job rates and disposable income plummeted. At least I think you are right but again I cant really understand you.
"so for the 6 years between 2004 and 2010 the OVERALL market went down."
yeah most other industries are still struggling to get back to prerecession numbers but the music industry seems to be back at its highwater mark and growing. But points for having one sentence that actually makes sense, thats an improvement Darryl.
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That's what I am curious about. I don't think the live music portion is continuing to grow. I haven't seen the actual 2010 figures for Canada or the est. figures for 2011, but I think there have been cutbacks and will continue to be cutbacks. It makes sense to me as fuel and food costs increase, something has to give, and going to concerts is a relatively easy spending item to drop from one's budget.
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Ironic
The other fact often ignored by recording types is that even though it is true China and Quebec have a larger amount of illegal downloading than over political regions it is not due to the lack of copyright laws or enforcement measures. It is due to cultural content laws. The Quebec and Chinese people download content because it is the only available delivery channel. The usual retail channels for any foreign content are highly restricted.
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WTF - You get that from THAT ????
and how can so many people here be blind enough to agree with him.
Did ANY of you ever go to school ???
and once again, Mike provides zero references to show that overall the industry is NOT doing what Mike claims it is.
Why not include a plot of GDP or inflation on the graph, or a comparison with some other markets, or the market in general ?
I know why, because it would show what Mike does to get his mantra across, truth and honesty go out the window..
which is a shame, as Mikes integrity goes with it.
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Re: WTF - You get that from THAT ????
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Re: WTF - You get that from THAT ????
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Re: “Mike provides zero references”
Also, notice those words in blue? Those are links. In other words, references, to “the UK, Sweden, Sweden and Norway”. That’s vahn, two, three, four, FOUR references! Ha-a-a-a-a! (In a strong Hungarian accent.)
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Re: WTF - You get that from THAT ????
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Re: WTF - You get that from THAT ????
Now that is funny.
"Why not include a plot of GDP or inflation on the graph, or a comparison with some other markets, or the market in general ?"
Mike didnt make the graph or do the research, he is just sharing the work of someone else. Since you are so smart and well educated why don't you make the graph you are talking about and show how wrong he is.
I would LOVE to read an entire post from you.
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When the law stops representing the wishes of society
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Re: When the law stops representing the wishes of society
Copyright isn't a cause that is going to determine I vote for. I'm much more interested in health care and clean tech issues. However, I, too, wonder when people are going to get out and vote for what they believe in. Politics depends heavily on political funding and in the US right now the laws favor big organizations that have the money to pour into campaigns. Let's see what we can do to change that.
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All the more reason to stay independent...
I mean look at the stats for touring... far surpasses the distribution of music in any category. On or offline. The musician who tours in today's new music industry is going to find themselves in a much better position financially than those focusing on distribution and their online presence. Let's face it... fans want to see you play and for that privilege - they will pay.
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Re: All the more reason to stay independent...
The economics of touring can be brutal, though. When fuel prices go up, not only do the bands have to spend more money to get from gig to gig, their fans have less money to spend on ticket prices. That's why I expect touring to take a hit.
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Re: Re: All the more reason to stay independent...
People that live in their parent's basement wouldn't know what it's like to miss your family. They think life on the road is all luxury and parties. They don't understand that there is little difference between being a touring musician and being a carny or circus worker.
Even if you tour in the plushest bus, you sleep in a space that is smaller than a coffin. You are only allowed to pee, when it comes to using the bus bathroom.
...unless you go rogue like Dave Matthews, and that will bring you big trouble.
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Re: Re: Re: All the more reason to stay independent...
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