Los Angeles May Dump Red Light Cameras

from the pushback dept

Thu, Jun 9th 2011 5:10am — Mike Masnick

We've been hearing more and more stories of late about cities with red light cameras deciding that they're just not worth it. A lot of these have been smaller cities, however, so it's interesting to hear (via btr1701) that Los Angeles is now considering dumping its red light cameras. Apparently the civilian Police Commission that oversees the police department has put the program on hold, much to the chagrin of the police themselves, who were in favor of the proposal. The commission's main concern appeared to be the fact that for all the redlight camera tickets being sent, most were never collected, and there was no effort to collect -- raising questions about the effectiveness of the program. Separately, studies had shown "no evidence the cameras reduced accidents, deaths or injuries at the intersections where they were placed and in fact, found those numbers actually increased at some intersections."

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Filed Under: los angeles, red light cameras

38 Comments

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Casey Bouch (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 5:16am

w00t!
This tells me that if I get a ticket from a red light camera, I don't have to worry about paying it.
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John Doe, 9 Jun 2011 @ 5:30am

Re: w00t!
Better hope they don't send SWAT to collect.
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Shawn (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 5:39am

Of course traffic infractions won't go down if you don't enforce the fines. Here in Ontario, all traffic fines are accumulated by the vehicle owner, and if you don't pay your fines right away, you get slapped with a late charge and you get to pay it when you renew the plates. Even if you sell the vehicle for scrap, the ownership isn't transferred until all the fines are paid. In other words, the scrapyard won't deal with you until the fines are paid.

If you have red-light cameras, you need to get serious about collecting the fines.
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Danny, 9 Jun 2011 @ 5:59am

Re: Re: w00t!
Nah as long as Casey isn't stealing someone else's wifi while running a red light camera that won't be a problem.
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teka, 9 Jun 2011 @ 6:04am

Re:
And nowhere in there does Safety, the supposed reasoning behind the cameras, get mentioned.

Methinks that the police (or more likely the third-party redlight camera company) was lax in enforcement to lessen the eventual stink that would be raised. Buckshot out violation letters, hope a few people pay but don't risk pursuing people who would fight it.

(weird, its like another business model we have heard about here)

Thankfully it seems the Police Commission is realizing that this program is a bit short of Protecting and/or Serving the public good, just like people across the country.
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Haywood (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 6:20am

Re:
"Even if you sell the vehicle for scrap, the ownership isn't transferred until all the fines are paid. In other words, the scrapyard won't deal with you until the fines are paid."

So, cut it up with a torch and a 4" grinder and set it to the curb, a little at a time with the trash.
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John Doe, 9 Jun 2011 @ 6:27am

Re: Re: Re: w00t!
Yeah, but is he late on his student loans?
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noesbueno (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 6:35am

collecting fines
here in long island, non-payment of the fine will prevent you from renewing your registration. seems simple enough, and it seems to work.
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NullOp, 9 Jun 2011 @ 7:15am

Tickets
You may think you've gotten away without paying your red light camera ticket until you're stopped for some infraction and the cop checks wants & warrants. The ticket is in a database and it won't go away until paid! Then the city might just decide to rip you a new one for trying to skip.
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Cloksin (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 7:25am

Re: Re:
It mentions safety right here.

"Separately, studies had shown "no evidence the cameras reduced accidents, deaths or injuries at the intersections where they were placed and in fact, found those numbers actually increased at some intersections."

Now here's the thing, of course the cameras aren't going to reduce accidents at the intersections if there's no enforcement of the fines. People realize that they don't have to pay the fine and so there is no deterent to obey the light.

Enforcing the fines in a manner that some have already suggested here, like suspending vehicle registration or license renewal, will force people to pay the fines. With enforcement in place people are less likely to violate the lights, thereby reducing accidents at the intersection.

I think the police commission is taking the wrong approach here, instead of suspending the program, they should be looking at ways to better enforce the violations.
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Danny, 9 Jun 2011 @ 7:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: w00t!
I hope not...
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jun 2011 @ 7:49am

Camera's in intersections don't prevent accidents, they increase them. The idea that was sold where the owner of the camera's would share revenue for putting them up around the city isn't interested in safety, it's interested in getting money. When these cities put them up, since the revenue split was so high, the first thing done was to raise ticket fines. The next thing done was to take the time the yellow light stayed on down to the legal minimum. This often means you don't have time to stop if you are going the speed limit. Reaction time and braking distance can put you right in the middle of the intersection.

What the camera at the red light has done is increase rear end accidents by a big amount.
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CommonSense (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 7:54am

Re: Re: Re:
Sure, spend more money on "no evidence the cameras reduced accidents, deaths or injuries at the intersections where they were placed and in fact, found those numbers actually increased at some intersections."

Sounds like a good idea, I mean, the more money we throw into the drug war, the less people do drugs, right?
/sarc

Some problems can just never be eradicated, and it's wise to identify them and not waste valuable resources on them. This is one of those times.
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pixelpusher220 (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 8:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Running red lights is *not* the same as doing drugs. Full stop. Or how about speed limits? Seat belt usage? Why have any rules at all?

Changing the rules of driving without properly *training* the drivers is of course going to lead to confusion and improper behavior - i.e. last minute recognition of this particular intersection as having a red light camera and slamming on the brakes. Since the person behind isn't expecting this, you get accidents.

Every study I've seen shows an increase in rear end collisions but a decrease in the much much worse t-bone accidents these cameras are trying to prevent. That's is a worthwhile savings.
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Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 8:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And the same decrease could be seen by increasing the yellow lights to a safe margin and having both sides be red for a brief period of time. It won't stop all accidents (nothing will), but it will lower the t-bones and avoid the increase in rear end collisions.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jun 2011 @ 8:36am

Re: Re: Re:
the safety issue isn't from non-enforcement. I can't remember the source but in a study that was done a while back showed that the red light cameras actually caused more accidents than they prevented because people saw a yellow light and slammed on the breaks even though they had plenty of time to clear the intersection before the light turned red. Because of the studies that were done the camera's in my area were shut down and taken out.
BTW in my area they did actively enforce the cameras as they would any moving violation, you have a court date and a pre-payable fine amount. If you ignored it your license was suspended and a warrant put out for your arrest.
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Cloksin (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 9:05am

Yellow light = slamming on brakes = accidents
I've seen this argument many times over regarding the traffic light cams, and I just don't buy it. Rules of the road dictate that when a traffic light turns yellow you stop, unless you are too close to the intersection to do so safely in which case you proceed through the yellow light. Whether there is a camera at the intersection or not is moot, those are the rules.

Now, if you cross the stop line while the light is yellow and the light turns red while you are in the intersection you CANNOT get a ticket, and this is the point I think most people using this argument are relying on. The fear that if the light turns red before they've cleared the intersection they'll get a ticket, therefore the only recourse is to slam on the brakes in a fashion that forces the driver behind them to run into the back of them. This is just plain bad driving, and the people that do this shouldn't be behind the wheel in the first place.

In order for a rear end collision to happen because a traffic light turns yellow a string of events needs to take place, first, the driver in the front needs to be going too fast to stop safely at the stop line from their position, they need to be going too fast to make it past the stop line before the yellow light changes to red, they need to slam on their brakes ridiculously hard, causing them to SLIDE to a stop, the driver behind needs to be driving too close to safely stop, and has to not be paying attention to the car in front of them OR the traffic light.

Can this series of events occur? Of course they can, but the chances are very unlikely that all of these will occur at the same time. So, take just one of these factors out of the equation and you've eliminated the rear end accident.

I really am sick of hearing people use the argument that because a light turns yellow you have to slam on the brakes which will cause a rear end accident just so they can justify running a red light. Work on being a better driver, and you won't have to resort to this argument anymore.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 9:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Or how about speed limits?

You could probably get rid of them and suffer little to no ill effects.

Seat belt usage?

Definitely get rid of those laws. Helmet laws too.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 9:19am

Re: Yellow light = slamming on brakes = accidents
Now, if you cross the stop line while the light is yellow and the light turns red while you are in the intersection you CANNOT get a ticket

Prove that statement.
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Ben Buchwalter, 9 Jun 2011 @ 9:33am

Too bad
Red light cameras can be a pain. It's never fun to get a ticket in the mail for something you barely even remember. But reports have shown red light cameras to be effective in terms of improving traffic safety in some cities. I'd like to see the LAPD boost their collection methods instead of stalling the red light cameras altogether.
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Cloksin (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 9:44am

Re: Re: Yellow light = slamming on brakes = accidents
Oh come on??!! Are you serious? It's this ignorance that is causing all these accidents, maybe if people learned the traffic laws before they decided to get behind the wheel of a 3000 pound killing machine, there would be fewer accidents. But since you need proof of something that you should already have known before you were able to get your license, here is a quote from the city of Savannah, Georgia, red light camera FAQ page.

http://www.savannahga.gov/cityweb/SavannahGaGOV.nsf/47b9dd27b9097a5485257296007391cc/70f24ed2c3d 2a3be852573250053855c?OpenDocument

Its the fifth question down in case you have a hard time finding it.

"What counts as a red light camera violation?
A violation occurs when a car is behind the stop line when the light is red, then crosses the line into the intersection while the light is red. Vehicles already in the intersection when the light turns from yellow to red WILL NOT receive a citation."
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Cloksin (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 9:53am

Re: Re: Re: Yellow light = slamming on brakes = accidents
Oh, and just so you don't think that's an isolated description of the law, here is an FAQ page from the city in question in the original post, Los Angeles.

http://www.lapdonline.org/get_informed/content_basic_view/1026

This time its only the second question down on the LAPD's own website.

"What is a red light violation?

A red light violation occurs when a vehicle travels across the limit line when the traffic signal is red.

It is not a violation if the vehicle has already passed the limit line at the time the signal turned red. At no time will a citation be issued if the vehicle crosses the limit line while the traffic signal is still yellow."
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jun 2011 @ 9:55am

Re: Re: Yellow light = slamming on brakes = accidents
I think he meant "SHOULD NOT" get a ticket.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 10:16am

Re: Re: Re: Yellow light = slamming on brakes = accidents
maybe if people learned the traffic laws

I didn't say that I didn't know what the law said. I asked you to prove that you cannot get a ticket.

Yesterday I would have said that you "cannot" be dragged out of your house in your underwear at 6 AM and at gunpoint and be made to wait in a police car with your three children for 6 hours while police look for your ex-wife who they think may have committed financial aid fraud, but I think we all know better now, don't we?

The facts are:
(A) The city makes a lot of revenue through these cameras. They have an incentive to create a lot of violations.
(B) The company that sells the cities these cameras gets of a cut of the profits. They have an incentive to create a lot of violations.
(C) The police can say or do anything they damn well please, and what are you going to do about it?
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option.j, 9 Jun 2011 @ 10:18am

Re: Too bad
Link to a study showing they improve safety?

Here is a link to five studies showing they are detrimental to safety.

http://blog.motorists.org/red-light-cameras-increase-accidents-5-studies-that-prove-it/
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jun 2011 @ 10:19am

Now, if you cross the stop line while the light is yellow and the light turns red while you are in the intersection you CANNOT get a ticket

That is a matter of state and city law, and you can't make a general statement about the entire US. That is how the law works in some places, and not how the law works in other places.

And it's a moot point, because the question is not what the law says, but about how people behave. People worry about the cameras ticketing them for behavior a human wouldn't, and so they behave differently; more dangerously, apparently.
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Cloksin (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 10:50am

Re:
First, its not that people think a human wouldn't ticket them when a camera wouldn't, its that they know if there is no camera, there is most likely no human there either. If no one sees them breaking the law, then there is nothing stopping them from doing it.

Second, I just posted TWO links from opposite sides of the country stating the same thing about the red light laws. Find one that states otherwise and post it here.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 11:27am

Re: Re:
Being acquainted with some police officers, I have personally heard at least one say that they ticket anyone who is not at least halfway across the intersection by the time the light turns red.
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Any Mouse (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 12:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Speed limit laws have nothing to do with safety. They were enacted in the 70s for fuel conservation.
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Any Mouse (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 1:00pm

Re:
Actually, read up on this. Yellow times were often taken below the federally mandated limits.
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Any Mouse (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 1:08pm

Re: Re:
Oregon ORS 811.265
Michigan MCL 257.612

Texas and Indiana have similar laws. Yes, you can and will get a ticket for running a yellow unless you're already in the intersection or 'at the point of no return,' as judged by the police. Not you.
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btr1701 (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 2:41pm

Re: Re: Re:
> I think the police commission is taking the
> wrong approach here, instead of suspending
> the program, they should be looking at ways
> to better enforce the violations.

The police commission has no authority to enforce the violations. The violations go to the courts for enforcement and the courts have decided that holding someone responsible for a violation when the actual driver of the car can't be determined is a violation of due process and have refused to enforce the tickets.

The police commission has zero control over that.
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btr1701 (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 2:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> Or how about speed limits? Seat belt usage?

We actually could do without speed limits. Most people drive at a naturally safe speed regardless of what the signs say. And those that don't never obey them anyway.

As for seatbelts, it's no one business but mine to worry about my own safety.
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btr1701 (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 2:45pm

Re: Tickets
> until you're stopped for some infraction and
> the cop checks wants & warrants

A warrant can't be issued for failure to pay a camera-generated fine because there's no evidence that the car's owner was actually behind the wheel. They can impose an administrative fine, but they can't issue a warrant, which is constitutionally required to describe the actual *person* accused of committing the offense.

So no, an NCIC check will not yield warrants on failure to pay camera tickets.
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Ben Buchwalter, 9 Jun 2011 @ 4:34pm

Re: Re: Too bad
option.j,

Here's the link: http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr020111.html

The IIHS report shows that red light cameras could reduce accident deaths by an average of 24 percent in 14 cities across the country.
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Jun 2011 @ 4:43pm

Re: Re: Re:
You beat me to it for Oregon. I'm an Oregonian and it was part of driver education that a yellow is legally like a "soft red" -- you legally must stop for a yellow unless it is unsafe to do so. People can and do get tickets for running yellow lights.
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Gwiz (profile), 9 Jun 2011 @ 5:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
...part of driver education that a yellow is legally like a "soft red"...

Part of driver education in Michigan too (at least it was 30 yrs ago).

Although, the only times I have seen the police pull some one over for it are when driver does a "yellow means go faster" move.
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CommonSense (profile), 13 Jun 2011 @ 9:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I never said running red lights was the same as doing drugs, and the only similarity I brought up is an undeniable one, you'll never be able to completely stop people from doing both things.

As everyone has already said, speed limits and seat belts are also bullspit laws, and it's a big taxpayer money waste to try and enforce seatbelts (speed limits should be enforced, the way I've heard most police officers say they enforce them, only giving tickets that will stick in court, at 10-15 MPH over the limit). Some rules help, some don't. The ones that don't are useless, that's a fact.
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