China Gleefully Uses UK Desire For Censorship To Validate Its Own Censorship

from the who-didn't-see-that-coming? dept

Fri, Aug 12th 2011 12:47pm — Mike Masnick

We've talked repeatedly of the blatant hypocrisy of many Western nations talking about the importance of internet freedom and condemning China (and others) for their internet censorship... while still wanting to censor at home. As we've warned, such efforts only give repressive regimes who censor the "cover" they need to continue. And, of course, with UK politicians looking to censor the internet to try to stop the riots, China has quickly used this as validation for its Great Firewall censorship:

Apparently the rioters used social media, like Twitter, Facebook and the Blackberry messenger system and Prime Minister David Cameron said Thursday he's looking at banning potential troublemakers from using the online services.

The British government, once an ardent advocate of absolute Internet freedom, has thus made a U-turn over its stance towards web-monitoring.
Communications tools such as Facebook and cellphones also played a delicate role in the massive social upheaval earlier this year in north Africa and neighboring west Asian countries, whose governments then imposed targeted censorship over message flows on the Internet.

In a speech delivered in Kuwait in February, the British prime minister, however, argued that freedom of expression should be respected "in Tahrir Square as much as Trafalgar Square."

Learning a hard lesson from bitter experience, the British government eventually recognized that a balance needs to be struck between freedom and the monitoring of social media tools.

In other words, "look, the UK is doing the same thing we are." You can argue how this is "different" all you want, and it won't change a thing. Internet censorship like what's being proposed in the UK only serves to make China more convinced that its own repressive censorship is the same sort of "balance." The UK government has now completely lost any moral high ground in arguing against internet censorship.

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Filed Under: censorship, china, free speech, uk

76 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 12:57pm

Who cares?
It must be Friday again. Masnick, don't you have better things to do than to care what China is up to? Let them censor the web. Just because they do something doesn't mean we (or even the royal we) need to do the opposite.

Look, I know you freetards are all about an 'open web' (free to infringe on whatever copyrights you want!!!1!ONE!!), but the days of the Internet Wild West are over. China realized that it had to end before others (good for them, even if I don't agree with most of their government policies), but the rest of the countries are coming around to the idea and China is just pointing out that they were right.

The party is over guys. Accept it.
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Anonymous Poster, 12 Aug 2011 @ 12:59pm

Re: Who cares?
You do realize that China's censorship is about more than copyright infringement, right?

You do realize that China has no First Amendment equivalent, right?

You do realize that you're an idiot troll, right?
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:03pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
You do realize that your opinion on the matter doesn't count, right?

You do realize that I already said I don't agree with most of their government policies, right?

You do realize that if I am a troll then you fell for it and fed me, right?
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:Lobo Santo (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:03pm

Re: Who cares?
"The party is over"

LOL. "The transition from cocktail party to raiding party was a surprisingly easy one" -Douglas Adams

The party doesn't end, just the people who have no idea how to party.

;-P
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Spike (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:04pm

Wow, lots of industry shills on here today.
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Anonymous Poster, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
The problem is that you agree with China's web censorship. That is part and parcel of China's overall efforts to censor speech and suppress free expression of its citizens. Even if you don't explicitly approve of China's censorship efforts, you implicitly approve of those efforts by supporting China's web censorship.
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Kaden (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:05pm

Re: Who cares?
You've been drinking again, haven't you?
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:10pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
Of course! How else am I supposed to read this drivel? I get incredibly drunk every day, sit down, read Techdirt for a while, then need to drink a bit more once I realize that there are still people like this in the world.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Thank you for coming back with an actual argument rather than just a collection of random stupid questions. China was doing a lot of things before there was an internet. How anything dealing with the internet can be 'part and parcel' of things that they were doing years before the intertubes started is beyond me.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:19pm

Re: Who cares?
"Oppressive governments were ahead of the curve on how to be oppressive!"

2/10 Unconvincing trolling. Would not feed again.
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Lobo Santo's Ugly Sofa, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:19pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
Look at me! I can quote someone! That makes me look smarter than I would if I brought an actual argument to the table!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:19pm

Re: Who cares?
I have to say I agree with you here.

What China is pointing out is that, when push comes to shove, "unlimited freedom" isn't good for the people at all times. The UK is starting to understand that the methods of communications created may be the same ones used to undermine the very existence of the country. China understands this, and considering that they are a communist dictatorship of sorts, they are even more at risk when this happens.

I don't think China is "gleeful" (I don't see that anywhere Mike, care to point out the glee?), I think they are obviously profiting a bit from the fact that the most open of countries has realizes that there sometimes needs to be some limits.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:21pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
Stopping people from stealing isn't being oppressive.
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Duke (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:21pm

The British government, once an ardent advocate of absolute Internet freedom,
Ah, those Chinese and their silly ideas and rewriting of history.

The UK governments (or elements of them) have been supporting web censorship since at least 1996.
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V, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:22pm

Beyond this point there be trolls...
Hungry trolls aside, we are all civilized until we face death. And then we will fight with tooth and nail and any other weapon at our diposal. It's human nature.

It's survival instinct.

The British government's fascade of freedom is crumbling under the very real threat of death... of uncontrollable, unstoppable riots in the streets.

It's easy to do the right thing when things are easy. So much more difficult to do the righ thing when things are tough.

And we're all just one step away from barbarism.

That's why the 2nd amendment is so important in the US. When the government fails to protect its citizens... they must protect themselves.
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btr1701 (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:22pm

Re: Who cares?
> The party is over guys. Accept it.

Then why is everyone still partying?

You're like that one guy in the corner at a party, yelling "Everyone go home!" and being totally ignored by everyone else.
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Chris Rhodes (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:23pm

Re: Who cares?
Started strong, ended strong. I really felt infuriated throughout.

I award you an A+. Phenomenal trolling.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:24pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
You mean the guy that owns the house and has to call the cops because a bunch of drunken morons don't respect other people's property?
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btr1701 (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:27pm

Re:
> Wow, lots of industry shills on here today.

Which is amazing because this issue has nothing to do with the industry. Whether a government censors Facebook during an 'emergency' has jack all to do with the nonsense they usually shill for.

I guess it's just become reflexive for them to take the contrary position to whatever Mike proposes, whether it makes sense or not. If he said water is wet, they'd come running in and scream, "You wetards have had your way for far too long! The party's over and water is now dry as dust. Just accept it!"
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:27pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
They don't see it this way. All they can see is that they want to party. No property should belong to anyone. Everything should be free!!!

JUST BECUZ ITS UR HOUSE DOZNT MEEN I GOTTA STOP TEH PARTYZ!!!
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HothMonster, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:30pm

Re: Who cares?
Yeah, this party ends MAO!
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:Lobo Santo (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Quoting an author one enjoys is a way of sharing the joy s/he has brought to you over time.

Also, seemed relevant/humorous.

Funny anecdote, I do not own a sofa though I do have a wicker loveseat out on the balcony...
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Atkray (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
"You mean the guy that owns the house and has to call the cops because a bunch of drunken morons don't respect other people's property?"

More like the homeless person that wandered in and people took pity on so they allowed him to stay.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:37pm

Re: Who cares?
No, the party is just beginning. I'm sure that newbies like you don't grasp how the entire Internet has been carefully engineered to deal with this -- at all levels, from the IP protocol up -- and so it will simply be routed around the censors.

We've been doing this for decades, and we're very good at it. We know how to tunnel traffic, anonymize it, spread it, redirect it, encrypt it -- and when necessary, how to move it with a station wagon full of tapes/disks/DVDs/USB sticks. We know how to build servers that will fit in your pocket, we know how to use point-to-point connections, we know how to build ad hoc networks, we know all kinds of things.

And before you say "...but the government will..." you should keep something in mind: the techies who work for those governments? They were our students. We are still the masters.

Over? No. The wild west is just beginning. I know that frightens you, but you are completely powerless to stop it.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
So you are drawing a comparison between the rich and powerful, the people who control the country, the people who make more in a day than most freetards make in a year to a homeless man that you allowed to come to a party?

I don't know what you're smoking buddy, but I'll take some. Masnick, you may wanna tell these people to get off of your side of the argument. They're making you look bad!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:41pm

Re:
No, just the same one as always.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:41pm

Re: Who cares?
You know, even with the "I disagree" bit you still mangaged to come off as a complete moster. Good job.
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HothMonster, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:41pm

Re: Re:
ummm, that guy is just a troll not a shill and he is winning this thread at least 6 to 1
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:41pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Dude, the banksters own the house. Get over it. Never was yours, and once you lost your job, they've foreclosed.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:47pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
Just because some internet hippie in virtual Birkenstocks tells me that the party is just beginning doesn't mean it's true.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
This is the closest thing to the truth that I've read all day.
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teppupkcos, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:50pm

Re: Re: Re:
He's not winning. He won. That's what happens when you talk sense rather than spouting the same crap over and over about how you want to infringe on the copyright of others.
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The eejit (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Is it made of wood?
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md1500 (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:54pm

Also, similarly:

Malaysia police use the London Riots as an excuse to use Tear Gas and Water Cannon against protesters.

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/international/malaysian-cop-uses-uk-riots-to-justify-c rackdown/458805
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:57pm

Re:
Oh, look! More people who don't respect the property of others!
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crade (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 1:57pm

I'm not too worries, the chinese people have shown plenty of times they can stand up for themselves. If they don't like the government they will just topple it again. They'll be fine.
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Rick, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:01pm

Re: Who cares?
Wow I hope you are not a American. You see we built this great country with some basic freedoms. And Censoring ones speech is not and should never be allowed.
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crade (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
wtf? He is just spewing endless insults at people, there isn't even anything that I could check if it makes sense or not.
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anonymous, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:05pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
they're not worried about 'undermining the very existence of the country' at all. they are worried about 'undermining the very existence of the GOVERNMENT'!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
"How anything dealing with the internet can be 'part and parcel' of things that they were doing years before the intertubes started is beyond me."

Wow, that's so wrong, it isn't even false.

The Chinese government, unlike the RIAA and MPAA, is willing to extend its efforts to new technologies. Even though the Chinese government suppressed free speech and a free press for many years before "the internet", it has noticed the rise of free speech using internet-enabled communications, and attempted to suppress that speech as well.
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:Lobo Santo (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
it's made of wicker--dried reeds or something of that ilk.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:07pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
There you go again! Conflating "theft" with "infringement"!
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HothMonster, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:11pm

Re: Re:
"demonstration organized by civic groups last month to demand more transparency in electoral laws that they say help the ruling coalition continue its decades-long grip on power. "

or infringement whatever
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HothMonster, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
7 to 1
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Patrick Henry, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:14pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
Who gets to decide what limits to place on freedoms (which are now correctly denoted as "privileges" by the way)?
Who gets to decide what situations demand limiting privileges? Who gets to deicde what methods of communications can be used to undermine the very existence of the country?

There's some people I know I wouldn't trust with these decisions.

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:15pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Just because some internet tough guy in virtual jackboots tells me the party is over doesn't mean it's true.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:16pm

Re: Who cares?
"It must be Friday again. Masnick, don't you have better things to do than to care what China is up to? Let them censor the web. Just because they do something doesn't mean we (or even the royal we) need to do the opposite."

It is Friday, don't you have better things to do than read about something you dislike and comment on it just to be contrarian? Are you actually arguing oppression is good for the people (whether it be China or the UK or the US)? You're right that just because China does something doesn't mean we have to do the opposite, but if China does something oppressive, you bet your ass we better do the opposite.

"Look, I know you freetards are all about an 'open web' (free to infringe on whatever copyrights you want!!!1!ONE!!), but the days of the Internet Wild West are over. China realized that it had to end before others (good for them, even if I don't agree with most of their government policies), but the rest of the countries are coming around to the idea and China is just pointing out that they were right."

What the hell does this have to do with copyrights? This is about allowing people to communicate without having to fear their government for it. You know something on which the US was founded. And yes those in power of the Chinese government figured out that oppression of the people is a power they can use to stay in power. So when someone in power in a country that isn't oppressive has an reflexive response to impose oppressive ideas so that they too do not lose power, it should make you angry, because the direction China is pointing is not the right direction for the people, but for those in power.

"The party is over guys. Accept it."

You'll have to find me cold and dead before the freedom party is over.
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Atkray (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
WOW 4 minutes to respond

Let me see if I can help you follow along

1: btr1701 compared YOU to the one guy at the party yelling

2: you responded that you were yelling because it is your house

3: I countered with no it is not your house you are the homeless person that the party guests took pity on.

4: you made some kind of quantum leap to the rich and powerful and threw in a freetard and Masnick for good measure.

Now while it is possible that you are in fact one of the "rich and powerful the people who control the country" your deportment on this site, your willingness to stoop to name calling, and the general lack of critical thinking skills you demonstrate over and over again tend indicate you are not.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, me and my sock puppet pretty much worked a bunch of people into a frothy nerd rage. My work here is done. Thanks for keeping score, Hoth.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:29pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
Thanks. I try.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 2:39pm

Re: Re:
Monopolies =/= property
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Anonymous Poster, 12 Aug 2011 @ 3:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Censoring free speech is, though.

Enjoy being on the same side as China when it comes to free speech, bro. I'll be over here in America enjoying my First Amendment right to call you one of the RIAA's housebitches.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 3:16pm

The grey area is between a political act, and a criminal act. That definition is frequently abused in both directions. From what I saw, nearly all the riots in England had only criminal, not political purposes.
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InoSee (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 3:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Three monkeys agree - there is no party.

The only thing that can reasonably even attempt to accomplish that which you seem to support is a full perimeter shutdown. If you do not know this or if you do not understand this then you are part of the problem. What is the problem? Well the problem is yours and it closely resembles a complete and thorough inability to evolve. You would rather suppress than think. You deem control as successful governance.

We will not be controlled. We will route you and all that you stand for.. or we will die. Who are we? We are members of the human race that recognize what is right and what is wrong without being told. We are people that believe that every human has a voice, at any cost, at every moment. Those moments may include rioting, peace, war, suppression, agreement, disagreement, rebellion and revolution.

If you fail to come to terms with the fact that more and more voices are being heard every day and you advocate for silence AT ANY MOMENT then you WILL fail and you will fall.
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fireTriangle (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 3:41pm

Re:
Ohhh, I just feel like being a criminal for a few days..

To lay the blame there, on that alone, is to lack critical thinking skills. Criminal behavior does not a good catalyst make. Good fuel perhaps. Some might say excellent fuel, especially those that would use events to constrict and suppress.
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Charles, 12 Aug 2011 @ 3:44pm

Anyway... Back to the article
The Uk didn't isn't trying to ban people because of copyright infringement; they are trying to do it to look like they are taking measures in stopping future riots. However its really just a means for them to save face, as most news coverage has pointed out how the UK goverment felt the riots were an "embarrassment".

Of course banning people from communication on the internet isn't going to stop a riot, similar riots of gone on in the past without aid of the internet (watts riot, 1965 as an example). The only thing that is going to stop riots is addressing the reason behind them before they begin, but lately modern countries seem to think banning people from forms of communication are plausible substitutes. And as Mike pointed out only give China more ground in their arguments.

I don't know about you, but I don't really want to live in a country with as little freedoms as china.
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Bruce Ediger (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 3:51pm

Finally telling the truth
Whoops! I think your Identity Management software is on the fritz, dude! You admitted to having sockpuppets, and to trolling. What's left? Admitting that you're employed by (A) the RIAA (B) the MPAA, (C) DtecNet or (D) the US Government, or worse, admitting you're employed by Wagg-Ed?
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Bruce Ediger (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 3:53pm

Re: Re: Re:
That's not true. In the case of "Intellectual Property", more specifically copyright and patent, a state-enforced monopoly is really all the "property" that exists.
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Jeremy2020 (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 4:49pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
like limits on corporations writing laws?
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The eejit (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 5:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Dammit stop trying to out-Bender Bender "Bending" Rodriguez!
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The eejit (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 5:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
only for the next....15 months.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 5:20pm

Re: Finally telling the truth
Nah, just a random troll doing random troll things. Nerd rage is its own reward
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rrrrr (profile), 12 Aug 2011 @ 5:26pm

Re: Anyway... Back to the article
"I don't know about you, but I don't really want to live in a country with as little freedoms as china."

The fact that it is even being considered... should be perceived as a threat in and of itself. To act upon it would be treasonous. ... I would add that that should hold true for any governing body. Henceforth and forevermore. la lala
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2011 @ 7:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
There's no property on the internet, only content. Try again.
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Leonel, 13 Aug 2011 @ 6:30am

Re: Who cares?
What are you talking about? The reasons behind the rebelions are a result from the dirty policies led by governments backed by the oligarchy of high finance. If the polititians don't want to have unrest, they better start doing what is expected of them: clean and clear decisions for the masses instead of what they have been doing for decades in order to protect the interest of a few. This was bound to come for a long time.
Cutting on people's freedom of expression will only press harder towards a full scale rebellion and ultimately start a GLOBAL STREET WAR which will make far more victims than the world wars together. Failure to see this is the sign of a retarded mind and a lack of knowledge basis to look back at history's lessons and learning something from them.
And everybody knows that you can't stop a river from its destiny: you might divert it for a time but it will eventually overcome obstacles and find its way beck to its path. You cannot stop the future from where it is going no matter how hard you try.
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2011 @ 6:34am

censorship
censorship is always wrong
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2011 @ 6:45am

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
There are no limits for freedom but one: do not do unto others as you will not have done unto you!
Freedom with border is like you being free to walk around a prison cell as long as you stay in it.
In this case, is more like: hide the shit under the rug and hope nobody will notice it. What a joke!
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Angelito, 13 Aug 2011 @ 6:57am

Re: Re: Finally telling the truth
But... but... the trolls!!
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Leonel, 13 Aug 2011 @ 7:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
This post came out as posted by the original poster. Corrected.

There are no limits for freedom but one: do not do unto others as you will not have done unto you!
Freedom with border is like you being free to walk around a prison cell as long as you stay in it.
In this case, is more like: hide the shit under the rug and hope nobody will notice it. What a joke!
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2011 @ 2:33pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
Nahh, you have to pay attention to Mike. Someone will patent something about the internet and then it will all be shut down.
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2011 @ 3:48pm

If everybody stole from everybody else, using nothing but the internet, everybody would steal about the same from everybody else, making everybody equal since they dont have to pay for anything on the internet.
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techflaws.org (profile), 14 Aug 2011 @ 6:51am

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
You do realize that your opinion on the matter doesn't count, right?

Right back at ya.
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techflaws.org (profile), 14 Aug 2011 @ 7:03am

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
Just because some internet shilltard who doesn't have a first clue about what's really going on tells us that the party is over doesn't mean it's true.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2011 @ 2:47pm

Re: Re: Re: Who cares?
At least he brought a quote, its better than an insult when debating.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2011 @ 2:55pm

Re: Re: Who cares?
The force is strong with this AC.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2011 @ 3:11pm

Re: Beyond this point there be trolls...
Very true V.

I often hear about how our culture has evolved so much and how no longer could we do the terrible things of humanities past. Apparently some people don't open their eyes and see we are the same; we just have better ways to veil our humanity and greed is a big part of our culture today.
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