Straw Man

from the informal-fallacy dept

Fri, Sep 16th 2011 10:03am — Nina Paley

Definition of straw man

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Filed Under: arguing online, straw man, trolls

58 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:09am

Yes, not every argument of yours is a straw man, but many of them in fact are. You're as bad as those you purport to ridicule and expose.
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Tallbonez, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:12am

Not every but...
most arguments in the media and on the internet are. Having not seen the original argument and it's rhetorical value, he could very well be accurate.
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Lyle Verbilion, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:18am

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
no comment
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Dark Helmet (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:18am

Re:
"Yes, not every argument of yours is a straw man, but many of them in fact are. You're as bad as those you purport to ridicule and expose."

So you're saying that her being a woman means she can't write about straw MEN? How the hell can you say that? Writing about Straw Men is Nina's, nay, every woman's natural right.

Your campaign of mysoginism ends here, my friend. No longer can you rail against women just because they have boobs and such....
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Cowardly Anon, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:27am

Re:
Dude, lighten up a bit would ya? It's a comic.
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Cowardly Anon, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:31am

My haiku :)

People use this term,
But they don't know what it means.....
Wikipedia.
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inc, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:36am

Re: Re:
Boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina.
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Suggestions, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:37am

A way to improve your site
I honestly dislike these comics, they're kinda painful to look at. Could you please provide a way to filter these from the site feed, a check box of some sort who's contents are saved as a cookie that would allow me to not have to see these comics?

Thank you very much.
~~~A reader
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Mr. Smarta**, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:37am

A little gender neutrality here
What's with the gender identification. It should be "Straw person". Stating man or woman, or his or her, or whatever leans toward sexism. Anything 'man' or 'woman' needs to be changed to 'person' in order to avoid a sexist situation.

Some proposals:
"That man over there..." changes to "That person over there..."
Man-hole cover becomes person-hole cover
A "Ladies' man" becomes a "person's person".
Manager becomes Personager
Mandate becomes Personadate
History becomes persontory
Herman becomes Personperson
Mandatory becomes persondatory

If we're going to remove sexism from the english language, we need to get serious about it.

... What was the topic again?
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AJ, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:39am

Re: A way to improve your site
+1 Douch-Bag
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Dark Helmet (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:41am

Re: A little gender neutrality here
....George Carlin would like his bit back.
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Jesse (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:47am

Let us not discriminate against the women made of straw.
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Mr. Smarta**, 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:48am

Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
Is that where that came from? Stuff like that was floating around my college for years. Someone with too much time on their hands even posted a three-hundred line or so list of all th words changed. The ones above are the only ones I could remember.

Good to know, thanks. I'll never use that again anywhere. Don't want to get sued for copyright infringement or anything.
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:51am

Re: A way to improve your site
No one forces you to read them.

+2 Douche-Bag.
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The Mighty Buzzard (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:52am

Re: Re:
Funny and a straw man argument. I give it an 8.5.
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mike allen (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:56am

Re: A little gender neutrality here
In the words of the British prime minister "calm down dear"
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Dark Helmet (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 10:58am

Re: Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
"Good to know, thanks. I'll never use that again anywhere. Don't want to get sued for copyright infringement or anything."

I'm pretty sure you're safe from George suing you :)

From IMDB of his standup:

George Carlin: When it comes to changing the language, I think they make some good points. Because we do think in language. And so the quality of our thoughts and ideas can only be as good as the quality of our language. So maybe some of this patriarchal shit ought to go away. I think "spokesman" ought to be "spokesperson." I think "chairman" ought to be "chairperson." I think "mankind" ought to be "humankind." But they take it too far, they take themselves too seriously, they exaggerate. They want me to call that thing in the street a "personhole cover." I think that's taking it a little bit too far!
[laughter]
George Carlin: What would you call a ladies' man, a "person's person"? That would make a he-man an "it-person." Little kids would be afraid of the "boogie-person." They'd look up in the sky and see the "person in the moon." Guys would say "come back here and fight like a person," and we'd all sing "For It's a Jolly Good Person," that's the kind of thing you would hear on "Late Night with David Letterperson"! You know what I mean?
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Kingster (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 11:05am

Re: A way to improve your site
There is. But only if you join at the "TechDirt Paywall" level.

OK, maybe not. But that's how I would implement it.
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The eejit (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 11:18am

Re: Re: Re:
But women have the mystical art of Vaginamancy. Which is both awesome and horrifying to men everywhere.
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The eejit (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 11:20am

Re:
But they're not as scary, y'know. Something to do with this Rule 34 malarkey.
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Richard (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 11:33am

Re: A little gender neutrality here
"That man over there..." changes to "That person over there..."

"That man over there..." changes to "That perchild over there..."

and btw the "man" in "manager" is a contraction on the latin "manus" meaning hand and is gender neutral already.
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pegr, 16 Sep 2011 @ 11:41am

A counter opinion
To counter anonymous:

I love Nina's cartoons and look forward to seeing them here. I often click through to her site to catch the latest. Perhaps anon is one of the anti-mike trolls we see here so often? Meh, if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, make them better. Oh, and don't be anon.

(Did I just feed a troll?)
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 12:13pm

As always, Nina's cartoons are, well, more of the same trash.

Although I do have to say that the character on the left does seem a lot like Mike Masnick. WTG Nina, you just punk'd the boss.
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Rich, 16 Sep 2011 @ 12:25pm

Re: A way to improve your site
The amusing thing is you probably thought you were being so funny when you wrote that, giggling to yourself like a schoolgirl.

-3, double-plus douche bag.
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Rich, 16 Sep 2011 @ 12:30pm

Re:
Wow, can you wipe your own ass, too?
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 12:41pm

Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
"....Person Person would like person's bit back"

FTFY
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 12:42pm

Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
Are you intentionally missing the point of the joke to try to tell your own joke or...?
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The eejit (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 12:55pm

Re:
And thus, the comic is proven.
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A Dan (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:08pm

Re: A way to improve your site
I can understand the sentiment. I would probably filter out the "Daily Dirt" posts and possibly the weekly "favorite stories" and "best comments" meta-posts if it were easy.
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MrWilson, 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:10pm

Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
If we're getting that technical, "history" is of Latin origin and "his" is of German origin. The "his..." in "history" isn't related. Same with mandate, mandatory, and manager.

If you're dividing Herman into "her" and "man," it'd be "person's person" since "her" is possessive.

Also, "man" originally meant "human" or "person" and only later was used more specifically for the masculine gender.

Woman comes from the term "wifman" which meant "female human."

People who want to change language usage really need to understand the underlying etymology before they go off on how some terms are inherently sexist.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:11pm

Re: Re: Re:
Depending on which part of the country you live in, some girls might have a penis too.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:13pm

Re: Re:
The only thing proven is your lack of a sense of humor.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:21pm

Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
We clearly need to retroactivly change Latin such that the latin word for "hand" is "personus".
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Rich, 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:36pm

Re: Re: Re:
Wouldn't that be *your* lack of a sense of humor? You're the one trashing the comic.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
What can I say? It's not even funny, even if you are completely drunk on the kool-aid. It is really low end.

Yet there is some unintentional humor in it, because it captures Mike Masnick so well.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 1:52pm

Re:
it is funny because it is true.
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Fizzy Lizzy, 16 Sep 2011 @ 3:00pm

Re: Re:
Your comment is nothing more than another strawm... bah, nevermind.
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Jeffrey Nonken (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 3:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"It's not even funny..."

And so you're claiming your tastes are definitive? Arrogant presumption.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Sep 2011 @ 4:39pm

Re: Re:
That strawman went up in flames.
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Nina Paley (profile), 16 Sep 2011 @ 5:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
Going too far is when you call a male mailman a person personperson.
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John Doe, 16 Sep 2011 @ 9:45pm

Dumbass - You just Made a Straw Man Argument in your simple comic
Original Argument: Mike's 9/11 Argument is a straw man argument.

Your STRAW MAN ARGUMENT: Not All of Mike's arguments are straw man arguments. (ALL dead clocks, even Mike, are right twice a day, and many of Mike's arguments have other problems.)

A GOOD ARGUMENT: Mike's 9/11 argument is NOT a straw man argument because he correctly represents the other person's position.

Nice drawing Nina, but if you believe the BS on this blog, stay in school or stick to drawing.
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The eejit (profile), 17 Sep 2011 @ 12:11am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Again, strawman, meet scarecrow.
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Prisoner 201, 17 Sep 2011 @ 2:39am

Re: A way to improve your site
Dear A Reader,

I find your post so utterly stupid and devoid of value that I feel life draining from my body. I estimate that as much as three days of my life was lost.

To prevent this loss of life, could you please provide a filter that allows me to not have to see your comments, on this site or any other, forever?

Thank you very much.
--Prisoner 201
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Prisoner 201, 17 Sep 2011 @ 2:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You do realise that "funny" is subjective?

That what you think is totally not funny might be funny to someone else?

Or are you so naive that you believe that your opinions are by default "right"?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2011 @ 7:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Japan?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2011 @ 7:13am

Re: Re: A way to improve your site
Don't worry, he'll be unpesoned shortly.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2011 @ 7:14am

Re: Re: A way to improve your site
Don't worry, he'll be unpersoned shortly.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2011 @ 7:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I understand funny is subjective, and I was expressing my opinion. Am I not allowed to have one?

I do note that, even in this thread, that there are others who just don't find the cartoon funny at all. While I wouldn't attempt to broadbrush anything (that is Mike's job), I would suspect that put in the public eye and exposed to 1000 random people who are not techdirt readers, the vast majority of them wouldn't find much humor in the toon.

It is perhaps the reason why they aren't in wider circulation or referenced outside of this very small circle of people.

Taste is subjective. Accept that I also have the right to taste and the right to express my opinion.

My opinions are right by default for me, but not for you. That is why they have my name attached to them, and not yours.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Sep 2011 @ 12:25pm

Re: Re: A way to improve your site
At least someone agrees. What's with all the toxic hostility from everyone else? I am being polite, and I am not saying that you all don't have a right to enjoy these comics if you like them. I am simply saying that I do not like them and would appreciate a filter option.
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Prisoner 201, 17 Sep 2011 @ 8:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Maybe it's because I am not a native english speaker, but I would expect "I think it's not even funny" or "I think it's the low end" (or similar) if you were expressing an opinion.

You come across (again perhaps its a language barrier thing) as trying to "educate" and smack-down rather than just having an honest opinion.

Your "1000 people" example highlights this - you defend your opinion by some made up statistics - when (as you say) an opionion on something as subjective as humor doesn't need defending.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2011 @ 5:36am

Re: Not every but...
that would by definition include TechDirt then !
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darryl, 18 Sep 2011 @ 5:46am

Re: Re: A way to improve your site
that I feel life draining from my body

Next time you getthat feeling, embrace it, run with it, and follow it to it's conclusion.

It appears clear your life is not that valuable anyway.

But there is a great deal to be critical of when it comes to the quality of how material is presented on TD.

Mike has yet to work out the "brief summary" of an artical that if you want to read you click on, no instead you come here are have to wait for 30 odd (sometimes very odd) articles IN FULL have to load..

If you want to click back to HOME, you have to freaking LOAD them all again.

For someone who claims to know everything about the internet and 'connecting with fans' you do you piss poor job at your own site and customer satisifaction..... Mike...
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darryl, 18 Sep 2011 @ 6:11am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A little gender neutrality here
it would be non-gender specific, non-race specific mail delivery official.

but it is not PC to say that a 'manager' cannot be either gender.

Nina do you consider yourself an 'artist' or an "artistess"?

There is nothing incorrect in PC if you call your mail man a mail man if he happens to be a man !!!

Or a straw man a man if the effigy of the person is of a man.

Or a police man a police man if he is a man.

A "fireman" is a title, not a gender, just like "manager" is a title and not a gender, you can be a 'fireman' and be female.

that is why 'best man' is still a man and is correct and PC because that is his title.

and a "male mailman" would be a 'person mail person" according to this odd line of thought you have :)

Unles you think the stuff you get in your mail box has a gender !!!!..

Mail and Male,,, if your going to try to be funny, at least get it right !!!
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2011 @ 9:09am

Re: Re: Re: A way to improve your site
To be fair that's only a problem for those of us without broadband.

Unfortunately broadband access in the united states is falsely reported to be much higher then it, in truth, is.
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Fizzy Lizzy, 18 Sep 2011 @ 8:33pm

Re: Re: Re:
"That strawman went up in flames."

You mean the golden flames of enlightenment which burns away the ignorance? Yup! :^p
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2011 @ 2:06am

is it funny or not... ??
NOT
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darryl, 19 Sep 2011 @ 2:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: A way to improve your site
it is a problem because the web master of this web site thinks it is acceptable to offer the bare minimum of quality of service.

Or it is something that is technically beyond him, or there is a financial incentive for him doing it this old and inefficient way.

I believe Mike is of the belief that quantity is far more important than quality. We get alot of the first, but very little of the later.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Sep 2011 @ 10:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
how many of those 1000 people could even explain what a 'strawman argument' is? The comic is humorous to those that understand the concept and the constant 'strawman arguments' posted by shills on forums all over the internet every day.

Stop 1000 people on the street and ask them to explain the fallacy of a straw-man argument. The number that can correctly explain the concept are probably the same ones that would think the comic humorous.

I don't care what the joke/humor is, if you have to explain the concepts and underlying terms used to someone... they are not going to find it funny.

There are only 10 type of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.... Not really funny at all if you don't understand binary now, is it? Just sounds like someone who doesn't know how to support all his facts... claiming there are 10 types of people but only explaining two of the types, I mean what is that guy thinking? That's totally not funny at all.... Oh, 10 = 2 in binary... I get it now....
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