Channeling That Anti-SOPA Energy Into Getting Important DMCA Exemptions

from the sign-up-now dept

Wed, Feb 1st 2012 7:01am — Mike Masnick

We've talked a bunch of times about the (somewhat ridiculous) process by which the public gets a shot, once every three years, to beg the US Copyright Office to throw the public a bone and grant "exemptions" to the ridiculous DMCA anti-circumvention clause. This process is completely backwards. The anti-circumvention clause is a disaster that should be dumped completely. It goes against the basic principles of fair use and leads to all sorts of ridiculous situations. The fact that the public needs to beg for fair use rights seems pretty crazy. Either way, it's that time again, and the EFF looks to be taking some of that fervent anti-SOPA (and now, anti-ACTA) energy and channeling some of it into convincing the Copyright Office to take these exemptions seriously. They've set up two sites:

Each site lets you sign on to an open letter to the head of the US Copyright Office, and hopefully, finally get the Copyright Office to recognize that there are other constituents beyond the legacy entertainment industry players.... It's sad and ridiculous that the public has to beg for its own fair use rights every few years, but if it must happen, we might as well channel some of that interest and excitement into the system under which we live today. The more impact that can be made there... the more likely it is that a proactive effort in the future will actually make a difference.

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Filed Under: copyright, dmca, exemptions
Companies: eff, public citizen

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Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:16am

Why are they not taking up the most important cause, getting a permenant exemption for the purpose of making backup copies of DVDs? Copying media for archival purposes as a backup in the event of damage to the original has been part of copyright law for decades, and yet this very basic exemption is missing from the DMCA. I'm pretty sure court precedent would protect jailbreaking.

Why does the EFF take up causes for special interest groups (video "artists") but largely ignores the needs of the public at large? Has the EFF beauracracy been infiltrated by remix artists?
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- jailbait, 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:25am
  
  Re:
  Court precedent protects jailbreaking (for now), however, it is still illegal to be in possession of "jailbreaking" tools, even if you don't use them.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:29am
  
  Re:
  The EFF has a policy of picking its battles. It probably realizes that a blanket exemption for ripping DVDs is impossible in the current system and is instead focusing on a more narrow exemption. I think that is probably the wise thing to do.
  
  However, there are other groups seeking the exact exemption you request, such as Public Knowledge.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Keroberos (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:31am
  
  Re:
  Because, unfortunately permanent exemptions would require an amendment to the existing DMCA, which means congress would have to pass it. Do you really see that happening? The EFF at least has been using the existing exemption process to try and lessen the worst of the abuses. Most people who want to back up their DVDs probably already do so (I know I do) regardless of its legality.
  
  Jailbreaking is important because many device manufacturers are bricking devices that have been jailbroken regardless of the reasons for jailbreaking. Ripping DVDs for educational/review/commentary purposes could get you sued. Backing up your personal DVD collection? Never heard of anyone getting in trouble for that.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Richard (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:32am
  
  Re:
  Why does the EFF take up causes for special interest groups (video "artists") but largely ignores the needs of the public at large? Has the EFF beauracracy been infiltrated by remix artists?
  
  Possibly because it is easier to marshall a small group with a strong incentive than a large group with a weaker one. This sad fact of life is behind the existance of IP law inthe first place.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:52am
  
  Re:
  better yet, get a permanent exemption for ALL fair use.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:17am

All the fucked up shit that is going on; jail-breaking and mix tapes are the target? Really? REALLY!!!!

Bhaaaa bhaaaa bhaaa. We deserve what we get.
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- :Lobo Santo (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:31am
  
  Re: IKR
  I know, right!?
  
  We should totally be focussed on something important: like Californians illegally drinking unpasteurized milk or having their own chickens.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:37am
    
    Re: Re: IKR
    LOL. It is a non issue for me as I live in farmland in western Pa.
    
    They should be allowed to have chickens though. Ever had an omlet from freshly picked eggs? YUM!
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - The eejit (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:47am
    
    Re: Re: IKR
    Correction: we should be focussing on more important things like capturing the domestic terrorists in Congress.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 10:23am
  
  Re:
  Maybe I'm misreading you, but are you saying that pushing issues other than the most important issues makes you a sheep?
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Keroberos (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:20am

....hopefully, finally get the Copyright Office to recognize that there are other constituents beyond the legacy entertainment industry players....
Really? Are there any other constituents? Well, they must not be very important, 'cause they don't give us high paying job when we retire or have major lobbying firms representing them.
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weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:23am

the process
Its flippin sad that the process that brought us SOPA/PIPA and all the other crap is just being ignored. But as long as the sheep can crack their phones and game consoles its ok. Unbelievable. Not even noon and my blood is boiling. ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!
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- E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:30am
  
  Re: the process
  What is being ignored? I don't understand what you are complaining about?
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:52am
    
    Re: Re: the process
    It is the process of back room deals and bought and paid for politicians that is the problem. While you have this many peoples' attention, don't waste it on petty little things like jailbreaking, and mixtapes. Because if they do get the revisions they ask for, i believe, a great number of ppl will drop out because that's all they really care about. They will get their little inch while in the back rooms they will be chipping away, I believe, a provision at a time added to unrelated legislation to reach their goal. I just think they should be aiming higher up the ladder.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:57am
      
      Re: Re: Re: the process
      This is one of the many many efforts by the EFF to bring sanity back o copyright law. They are not dropping everything to focus on these exemptions. What makes you think that this is the only thing the EFF is doing?
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - btrussell (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 10:10am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Throw the dog a bone so it will quit growling.
        
        ""I think the first-sale doctrine... would say you have a right to sell your old game... and you have the right to purchase a used game... but the first-sale doctrine doesn�t require somebody to build a used book store, if you know what I mean," she continued. In other words, just because you can sell a used game doesn't mean the platform maker has to make it easy, or even possible, for the new owner to play it.
        http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/01/is-it-legal-to-stop-people-from-selling-their-games. ars
        
        You have the right to sell your old game, but that doesn't mean that the publisher can't stop it from working.
        ?????
        Who can I sell it to?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:15am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        I know it is not the only thing they are doing, it was them that made me aware in the first place. My point, and maybe I did not make myself clear enough, is that while the momentum is on our side, use it wisely, because it will not last long. Silly me for wanting to maximize the effort to things that really matter. I do not think mixtapes and jailbreaking are a higher priority than the corruption that brings forth the laws that make above mentioned acts illegal. It's like putting out secondary fires while leaving the burning inferno going. Tell the guy that is detained and tortured without a trial, or even the right to know what he is accused of:
        Its ok dude you can jailbreak your IPhone and make mixtapes. I am sure that will make him/her feel better.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:27am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        So? Tell the kid who dies of malnutrition before his tenth birthday: Its ok dude we are protecting adults from unlawful detention and torture.
        
        There's always someone with a worse problem than the one you're trying to tackle, but that doesn't invalidate the lesser problems.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:36am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Who is playing games now? Nice to see you can troll with the best of them.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:55am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        I'm not trying to troll you. I'm telling you I fundamentally disagree with your philosophy. You are the one flipping out that this effort is being directed incorrectly - I'm afraid I don't agree, because I think that's a mentality that can only lead to ridiculous conclusions.
        
        Do you have a response to my point? You claim that there are bigger problems than these - I'm telling you there are ALWAYS bigger problems. So why do YOU get to draw the line on which problems are worth focusing on and which ones aren't?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:11pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Ahhh Marcus, Marcus, Marcus. I offered MY OPINION.
        
        I'm telling you there are ALWAYS bigger problems. - Well thank you captain obvious. I didn't know that. /s
        
        It is MY OPINION that much more can/should be done. All they are doing is fueling the freetard fire for the industry to say see, all they want is to copy our stuff. Now if we were going after the process, it gives the appearance of having a righteous cause, and it is. I believe copyright is out of hand as well and it appears to me that, all they want is to copy our stuff is the case, and I know better. Imagine those who dont, and how the industry will spin this.
        
        So Mr. Carab, do you believe that going after the effect is better than stopping the cause? Subject does not matter.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:13pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Yes, subject does matter. I believe that, in a complicated system like a government, you need to push for change on many levels at many different scales at once. Are you claiming you can boil all problems down to a single root cause? That's impossible in a system this complex.
        
        There are lots of people out there who say "the government is corrupt and nothing can be solved until it's disbanded entirely". In their minds, government is beyond repair, so pushing for any kind of change is pointless. That's what I see as the logical conclusion of your line of reasoning - and I'm afraid I'm not on board with that.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:18pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Really, put quite simply, I believe that the right to remix and to jailbreak are very important. No, the specific need of having a jailbroken iPhone is not important in the "grand scheme" of things - but the underlying philosophies (you own a device you have bought and can do with it as you please; anti-circumvention laws do not override fair use; etc.) are ESSENTIAL to fixing copyright. So I'm sorry, I just don't agree that this effort is a waste of time.
        
        And so far you haven't really offered any reason why it is - you are just mocking it as a trivial issue as if that goes without saying. Well, it doesn't.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:50pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        "I believe that the right to remix.. (is) very important. "
        
        Of you course you do. Your entire low grade musical career depends on it. You can't actually play the music yourself, you can't be original, you depend on other people's work and try to act like it is your own.
        
        It's nice to see someone else has spotted you for the asshole you are.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:51pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        I have a musical career?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:04pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Its not trivial, its just a game of whack-a-mole without addressing the underlying issue. You do see that?
        Hypothetical:
        We get the laws changed to allow non-profit use of everything. Then there will be back room deal to chip away at that little by little, on top of all the other back deals to continue to erode our freedoms. Cat and mouse. Whereas if we address the issue of closed proceedings, pay for legislation, and the lobbying efforts that border on (to be nice) bribery, nothing will change. It will be the same old same old, and I have been watching this kind of crap for far too long now. I see an opportunity slipping away. Why? [Looking at this from the outside] Because those damn Internets just want to be able to copy our stuff. You know they will be saying that.(Not word for word, but close)
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:11pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        So go work on it, then.
        
        I've realized that this is even simpler than I thought: you are being the worst kind of counterproductive person.
        
        Here are people who are DOING SOMETHING. They have identified a problem, and they believe they can solve it. So they're trying to. And your only response is to criticize them - calling them sheep, in fact! - for not doing enough?
        
        That's a very counterproductive attitude. I'd go as far as to say a childish attitude. "Why bother doing something productive? It's not going to solve every problem."
        
        That's like people who say "why bother turning off the lights when I leave home? big corporations are the ones doing the most damage to the environment"
        
        Change is not a zero-sum game.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:17pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Incidentally, had you simply said at the beginning that you feel there are even bigger problems we could be tackling, I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. It was your insistence on belittling the people behind this initiative that I found astonishingly wrongheaded. But you seem to have dropped that now - and if so, we really aren't in disagreement. Next time, think before you start yelling "bhaaaa bhaaa!" at people who are contributing a lot more than you are.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 2:20pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        "It was your insistence on belittling the people behind this initiative that I found astonishingly wrongheaded."
        Um. "belittling the people behind this" Dude you read waaaaayyyyy too much into things. LSD, MDNA maybe?
        
        "All the fucked up shit that is going on; jail-breaking and mix tapes are the target? Really? REALLY!!!!
        
        Bhaaaa bhaaaa bhaaa. We deserve what we get."
        
        Its flippin sad that the process that brought us SOPA/PIPA and all the other crap is just being ignored. But as long as the sheep can crack their phones and game consoles its ok. Unbelievable. Not even noon and my blood is boiling. ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!
        
        I think, Mr. Carab, you had a reading comprehension fail.
        "It was your insistence on belittling the people behind this initiative that I found astonishingly wrongheaded." With the exception of the sheep thing, and do you deny most Americans have the sheep mentality, if so go to an all night wallmart and look around, the only one i belittled... was... YOU, and I am rally not sorry about that. Almost time for me to go. You have a great night Marcus.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Ninja (profile), 2 Feb 2012 @ 4:14am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Dude... Fail. Think about it a bit: protecting the right of a kid to jailbreak reaches as far as protecting YOUR freedom. If a corporation can dictate what you do with your property what kind of freedom is this? It's not just about the kid jailbreaking the game console, it's about his RIGHT to do so. It's not about protecting the right of a kid to remain anonymous and play pranks with a pseudonym online, it's about the RIGHT for anonymity for any1, from the kid to the Arab Spring protesters.
        
        Marcus is criticizing yous incredibly bad myopia on this. You can't fix the car if you don't disassemble the parts and deal with the small pieces that are broken. You may change the entire engine but it won't run if you don't fix the small fuse that is burnt or the few degrees that went misaligned in one of the wheels. Granted these small degrees are not nearly as bad as a broken engine but they will prevent you from running in the long run. Open your eyes, protecting the jailbreak kid is protecting yourself.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:44am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        What an asshole. You dont have many friends do you? All im saying is while the momentum is in the direction it is, take it a step further and address the real issue of back room dealings, and the process that brought it to us.
        
        You have a problem with that? Or just me? It is rhetorical, no need to answer, we all know the answer.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:56am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Yes, I have a problem with that. You are claiming that YOU get to decide how far is not far enough, and how far is the correct amount. Why?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:23pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        I am flattered you think I have such influence by posting here on TD. I offered my suggestion/opinion, and how/where I FEEL they should go. You disagree with it? Im ok with that.
        
        So, Marcus, is it your position that going after the Mix/jail is more important than the process?
        
        "You are claiming that YOU get to decide how far is not far enough, and how far is the correct amount." - Whew, man, can I have some of what you are smoking? Must be some Cali killer. See the whole suggestion/opinion thing.
        
        So after going back through my posts I have come to the conclusion that Marcus Carab is out of his fucking mind. You inject a lot of assumptions that quite frankly I cant figure out where it comes from other than a drug induced haze. It has troll written all over it.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:27pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Relax, man. You are clearly way too angry to have a rational discussion here. Maybe you never got over our disagreement on vaccinations, or something? I'm not sure. But look, I'm saying I fundamentally disagree with the idea that this is a waste of time - I'm sorry that offends you so much. I've tried to give you pretty clear reasons as to why I think your reasoning is incorrect, by taking it past what you said into what I feel are its inevitable conclusions - but you apparently interpret that as me putting words in your mouth. That's not what I'm doing or trying to do. I'm just exploring your line of reasoning and explaining why I think it's flawed. There's really no need to get this upset about it...
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:17pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        "Maybe you never got over our disagreement on vaccinations" Long done. No worries.
        
        You just come off as a snarky asshole really.
        http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120124/03263517521/infographic-showing-just-how-frequent ly-hollywood-has-cried-wolf-about-piracy.shtml#c325
        It may not be your fault, we all have personality flaws to overcome, but I dont believe that to be so. Ive read some of your other things and as I said before, you craft you words carefully. You know exactly how you write it.
        
        "You are clearly way too angry to have a rational discussion here." Not angry. Where did you get that? I just plain dont like you. No mystery there.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:24pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Not angry. Where did you get that?
        
        Lol. Yeah, wow, I have no IDEA where I got such a crazy idea:
        
        weneedhelp - Feb 1st, 2012 @ 7:23am
        Unbelievable. Not even noon and my blood is boiling. ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!
        
        Done with this. You're being a child. "Why bother trying to do good? Everything just sucks anyway." Have fun moping.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:30pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        is it your position that going after the Mix/jail is more important than the process?
        
        No, I don't. But I also don't think that means the people behind this initiative are sheep and spoiled kids, or that we should just ignore mix/jail because their are bigger issues - which is the line you have been pushing from the very beginning in this thread. It's funny that you call me a troll when you kicked this thread off with two rage-filled comments full of insults and exclamation points.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:29pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        "with two rage-filled comments full of insults and exclamation points." TROLLS BEWARE WE HAVE A NEW CONTENDER.
        
        Comment1)
        All the fucked up shit that is going on; jail-breaking and mix tapes are the target? Really? REALLY!!!!
        
        Bhaaaa bhaaaa bhaaa. We deserve what we get.
        Comment2)
        weneedhelp (profile), Feb 1st, 2012 @ 7:23am
        Its flippin sad that the process that brought us SOPA/PIPA and all the other crap is just being ignored. But as long as the sheep can crack their phones and game consoles its ok. Unbelievable. Not even noon and my blood is boiling. ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!
        
        Rage filled? full of insults? and 8 !'s. Yeah ok marcus. Put the pipe down, its rotting your brain. Seriously man quit the shit it will kill ya.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:08pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        The momentum is being used in a variety of areas. We have groups working to rewrite copyright laws to be saner and more inline with the Constitution and reality. We have groups trying to fight ACTA and the TPP. We have groups that are trying to out all the pro-SOPA, pro-NDAA politicians in office. We have groups trying to get reasonable exemptions applied to the DMCA. Just because we have one article today talking about one of these issues does not mean that the rest are being ignored.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:32pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        It seems we are fractured and EFF is a central point of contact and I believe, it is my opinion, I feel, just to make that clear, that we could do much more productive effective things by taking it up a notch. And all of it boils back down to the process in which these things get passed. Stop that, and the effects will vanish.
        
        Gee my basement is flooded, lemme just get a sub pump. Call a plumber to actually fix the leak? Nah.
        
        Thanks you Mr. Knight.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:32pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Thank. ERR.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:35pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        So what you are saying is that those behind the anti-SOP/PIPA protests are completely incapable of focusing on more than one thing at a time?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:21pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        "what you are saying" WTF? You and Marcus doing bong hits together today? Please explain to me where you got that from this:
        It seems we are fractured and EFF is a central point of contact and I believe, it is my opinion, I feel, just to make that clear, that we could do much more productive effective things by taking it up a notch. And all of it boils back down to the process in which these things get passed. Stop that, and the effects will vanish.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:51pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Or it could be that these types of efforts are merely the smoke screen to distract the corrupted while we prepare are targeted laser strike.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 2:26pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        "targeted laser strike." Back away from the computer, go outside, and get a breath of fresh air cuz you're just off the wall now.
        
        Most normal PPL will just say YOUR A CONSPIRACY THEORIST and run away. Please do so next time it will be easier for you, and much easier to see.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:21pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        ...Ok. I will be backing out now. You obviously missed my point.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:42pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Gee my basement is flooded, lemme just get a sub pump. Call a plumber to actually fix the leak? Nah.
        
        No, it's more like your basement flooded and a friend showed up with a sub pump to help minimize the damage, and you said "fuck you, you spoiled idiot! what the hell are you bringing me a sub pump for? don't you realize that's not the cause of the problem? bring me a plumber or piss off"
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:32pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Exactly! Except the expletives to make your sorry point. Its more like:
        
        wow thanks man it will help greatly, but you know, what I really need is a plumber to stop the flow of water; can you help me, or do you know others that will?
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:50pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Do you know the first thing the plumber will do when he gets to your flooding basement is? He will pull out his sump pump and start draining the basement in order to get to the leak. So what is your point again?
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        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 2:04pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        If you think that. I started out my working career working for a master plumber and the first thing we would do is... are you ready... turn off the water at the curb.
        WE WOULD STOP THE ROOT CAUSE.
        
        So 10 fail points for you Mr. Knight. Thanks for playing.
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        E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:22pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Sorry. Didn't know you were an apprentice to a master plumber. I will try to remember that nxt time we get into a plumbing metaphor. Still, you missed my point.
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        weneedhelp (profile), 3 Feb 2012 @ 2:14pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Still, you missed my point. - Or did you miss mine as well?
        
        Plumbing or as in anything. I am a tech now and when a virus outbreak happens, the first course of action is to find the machine that is propagating it and shut it down, then clean up the mess.
        
        All I was saying here was to address the root cause rather than band-aid the effect.
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- PaulT (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:11am
  
  Re: the process
  "But as long as the sheep can crack their phones and game consoles its ok"
  
  So you'd rather the rights to use your own property as you wish and to reuse materials that you have been able to reuse a decade ago without problems disappear? You'd throw away these abilities (which include uses for scientific and security research, among other things) because you think that the average person would use those rights for trivial things?
  
  Just because the focus isn't currently on the government processes doesn't mean they've been forgotten. But, right now, which do you think is easier for people to achieve? Widespread changes to fundamental systematic structures in government or extending a law that's already in place and has a current method for extending it?
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  - weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:59pm
    
    Re: Re: the process
    "So you'd rather the rights to use your own property as you wish and to reuse materials that you have been"
    
    No Paul, I would rather fix the system so that future legislation is open and honest to the point where the people can see exactly what the Congress critters are trying to pull so that this kind of crap does not happen again.
    
    It appears that that point of view today gets bashed.
    
    If I didn't know better, it would appear that as long as your fighting for the right to copy and remix thats ok, but mention that you would like to see a more concentrated effort to stop the root cause and all of a sudden I am a pariah. Its OK though, I can take it.
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    - Ninja (profile), 2 Feb 2012 @ 4:31am
      
      Re: Re: Re: the process
      I would rather fix the system so that future legislation is open and honest
      
      Good, we have all sorts of ppl trying to do that. While we are at it, small fixes will do too. EFF can't embrace the world. The system won't be changed overnight with a single action, it's the work of several little ants like EFF (and you and me) that will slowly change everything. The fastest path for failure is trying to do everything.
      
      EFF is doing it right.
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- Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 10:27am
  
  Re: the process
  Its flippin sad that the process that brought us SOPA/PIPA and all the other crap is just being ignored.
  
  You can play that game forever. There is always something, somewhere that is a bigger problem. If you follow your logic to its natural ends, you reach the ridiculous conclusion that everybody in the world must focus on the world's worst problem any given time, and not think about anything else until it's solved - that the entire population has to take on the entire array of global problems one-at-a-time in descending order of importance. Well... that's just kind of silly.
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  - weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:34am
    
    Re: Re: the process
    Mr asshole,
    "you reach the ridiculous conclusion that everybody in the world must focus on the world's worst problem any given time" - WOW you must have creskin like abilities to reach that conclusion from what I said. Never did I imply or suggest that. Keep off the drugs they are distorting your reality. You would make a good troll.(Oxymoron I know)
    
    I reached the conclusion that gathering a mass of people to try and get jailbreaking and mixtapes legal is a waste of good resources that will eventually vanish, when they could be using the resources to go after the cause not the effect.
    
    We will then be the ones playing whack-a-troll.
    
    Its OK Mr. Crab, I know if I said the sky was blue you would argue me to the death saying its something else. Kiss kiss.
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    - Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 11:57am
      
      Re: Re: Re: the process
      Wow - clearly I have offended you. Not really sure why. Do you not understand what I'm saying about the logical ends of your line of reasoning? Why do you get to decide how far is far enough, and how far isn't?
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      - weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:44pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        "Not really sure why." Really? You must not be as smart as you think then.
        
        "Why do you get to decide how far is far enough, and how far isn't?"
        I'm sure I answered this elsewhere, but I have a couple, so I will address it again. I don't, Period. I don't see where I gave you the impression that I did. What i suggested were my OPINIONS & SUGGESTIONS. That is all. You took off on a tangent with assumptions and accusations that would make the best trolls on here envious.
        
        "Why do you get to decide how far is far enough, and how far isn't?" As a member of this Republic I have a right to speak my mind and offer my opinion and feelings, and you have the right to disagree.
        
        Marcus Carab (profile), Feb 1st, 2012 @ 10:27am
        Some people are naturally abrasive and may not realize the way they word things, but I dont think Marcus falls in that category. He knows exactly the way he crafts his words.
        "clearly I have offended you. Not really sure why." Sell it to someone else Marcus.
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        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:47pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Some people are naturally abrasive and may not realize the way they word things
        
        Is that your excuse for the two incredibly childish and angry comments you opened this debate with?
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        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 1:36pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the process
        Well then Marcus, if that is the way you interpreted it, then yes. I AM abrasive, I do not deny it, and clearly realize it. I can absolutely be an asshole sometimes. What about it? Whats your excuse?
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MadCow (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:31am

This may not be the best solution that us pro consumer rights readers want, but it's a step (however large or small you may see it) in the right direction. If we don't stand up for something, they'll strip it away. Small but consistent victories will hopefully win the war. Maybe not for us, but maybe hopefully our children or children's children so they may live in a truly free and rich cultured world.
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- Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:07am
  
  Re:
  I agree. And the other thing to consider here is timing. They have prior small victories (in the form of existing exemptions that were granted) that will be undone by allowing them to expire. This is one of the reason they are pushing this now. The EFF defends us on many different fronts. Only a few can be front and center at any one time.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:43am

The issue for the ripping is that the small minded children that populate pirate boards and file lockers can't control themselves. They are unable to restrict themselves just to backing things up, they insist on sharing it with the world illegally.

Your rights are restricted by those who abuse them. Fix the abuse, and the system can always be adapted. But the content producers know what happens when you had out ripping tools, you just have to go online to see. So sorry, until you can stop the children from doing so much damage, you cannot change the laws.
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- :Lobo Santo (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:52am
  
  Re:
  "...you cannot change the laws."
  Are you for real? Here's a one word reply: FALSE. You CAN change laws.
  
  I'd list some example, but if the phenomenon isn't plain as the nose on your face (you DO have a nose, right?) then give further additional examples to not learn from would be a waste of my time.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:06am
    
    Re: Re:
    Thank you for intentionally misreading my comment.
    
    You can change any law you like, technically. However, you cannot change a law to satisfy your desires if the harm to the greater good is bigger than the benefit in general.
    
    TECHNICALLY you can change the law. But the law is unlikely to change because of the problems it would create.
    
    What EFF is really trying to do is expand fair use to cover almost every non-commercial or not intended for commercial use. It's an attempt to pretty much rip up all of the copyright law when it comes to individual use, and to even extend it to online distribution where the original creator doesn't intend commercial benefit - even if commercial benefit comes to others as a result.
    
    It's an insulting end run that makes SOPA look honest on it's face.
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    - Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:14am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      You can change any law you like, technically. However, you cannot change a law to satisfy your desires if the harm to the greater good is bigger than the benefit in general.
      
      My mind boggles at how you can say this and still support the the continual ratcheting of copyright law against the public good for the benefit of a few tiny companies.
      
      Even you cannot possibly be that short sighted. Really, what are your motives here?
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    - Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 10:33am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      What EFF is really trying to do is expand fair use to cover almost every non-commercial or not intended for commercial use. It's an attempt to pretty much rip up all of the copyright law when it comes to individual use, and to even extend it to online distribution where the original creator doesn't intend commercial benefit
      
      Pretty much, yeah. And a lot of us support that - because it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the lopsided way copyright works right now. It's hardly dishonest: most of us opposed to copyright laws will freely and openly admit that we believe fair use should cover "almost every non-commercial or not intended for commercial use" - at least I will, and I suspect plenty of people at the EFF will too. It's not something we're ashamed of - why would you think it is?
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      - Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:54pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        ...and where exactly would your talentless musical career be if there wan't other people's work to sample from? You might actually have to learn to play music and do it yourself. That would be a crime, that is for sure.
        
        You just want to take everyone else's rights away to satisfy your need to show your lack of talent. Grow some balls, get some talent, and play the music yourself.
        
        EFF is nothing more at this point than an opportunistic bunch, playing to the whining masses. They lost their way, probably back when guys like Larry Lessig took over. It's no longer about freedom in any meaningful sense, more of a land grab.
        
        Lessig is still probably butt hurt from having the courts toss his first amendment ideas out the windows.
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        Marcus Carab (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 12:57pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I thought you were leaving the site forever? Just can't stay away, huh? I guess you derive a lot of self-worth from insulting me, or something...
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        weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 2:31pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        "self-worth from insulting me, or something..."
        
        See see, I'm not the only one. LOL.
        
        (You can take a lighthearted joke right?)
        God I hope so.
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        Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:45pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        You two are funny.
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        Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:32pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        A land grab like granting a monopoly and exclusionary powers for life + 95 years?
        
        Oh that is a land grab alright, even more so when it a monopoly starts to threaten the foundations of democracy eroding free speech rights and causing censorship to be seen as an acceptable consequence of doing business.
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        Ninja (profile), 2 Feb 2012 @ 4:41am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Now Marcus is a musician. That's gold (but no I don't want to listen to THAT, sorry Marcus).
        
        Aren't you posting in the wrong comment section? Shouldn't you be posting in your colorful dreamland? Your trolling might make sense there =)
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- weneedhelp (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:55am
  
  Re: But the content producers know what happens when you had out ripping tools
  Yes they do know exactly what will happen when you hand people tools to break the law;
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc
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- Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:07am
  
  Re:
  The issue of corruption is that the small minded children that populate corporate boards and legislatures can't control themselves. They are unable to restrict themselves just to passing good laws, they insist on passing ridiculously bad laws and spreading them around the world.
  
  Your rights are restricted by those who abuse the political process. Fix the abuse, and the system can be saved. But the public knows what happens when you hand out a free pass on bribery, you just have to go to Washington to see. So sorry, until you can stop the children from doing so much damage, we need to dissolve these political bonds.
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- Gwiz (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:09am
  
  Re:
  Your rights are restricted by those who abuse them. Fix the abuse, and the system can always be adapted. But the content producers know what happens when you had out ripping tools, you just have to go online to see. So sorry, until you can stop the children from doing so much damage, you cannot change the laws.
  
  Fix the abuse? How about defining the actual impact (with actual facts and figures) of the this so called abuse first, then we can see if there is anything needs fixing.
  
  Sure, I can go online and see file sharing happening rather easily, but what I cannot seem to find is verifiable proof that this filesharing is actually economically damaging anyone.
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- PaulT (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 8:16am
  
  Re:
  LOL, yeah that's right laws were never broken before the internet, piracy never existed before then and it's not possible to even consider allowing people rights until ever person on the globe is a saint. So long as any possible abuse against your corporate better is possible nobody should have rights (although, of course, you give a pass when it's them abusing laws for their agenda).
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- E. Zachary Knight (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:02am
  
  Re:
  I mentioned this in the last article on the EFF's exemption efforts.
  
  The evil pirates you deride so much are not waiting for laws to give them permission to rip their DVDs. Why is that hard to grasp? If they are doing what they want anyway regardless of what the law says, how will opening up the law to allow fair uses make things worse? Answer: It won't.
  
  People already jailbreak their phones, their game consoles and other personal electronics. The law isn't stopping them. Adding this exemption will only protect those that are doing so for fair uses. It will not protect people who actually infringe copyrights.
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- John Fenderson (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 10:01am
  
  Re:
  "Your rights are restricted by those who abuse them. Fix the abuse, and the system can always be adapted."
  
  Bull. My rights are being restricted by a small, but powerful, special interest group. That people abuse their rights in no way makes removing those rights from the general public OK. If it were, then we would have no rights whatsoever.
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- Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 6:37pm
  
  Re:
  >Your rights are restricted by those who abuse them.
  
  Works both ways. Abuse the DMCA, demand for copyright extensions, sue kids and grandmothers and printers and dead people, and don't be surprised when people refuse to respect copyright. So sorry, until you can stop the greed on behalf of the industries, you cannot change the laws.
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- Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:37pm
  
  Re:
  As opposed to the little children that populate the record industry that can't control themselves when granted absurdly long term monopolies that are used for censoring not only the internet but others forms of speech and anti-competitive market acts against competitors?
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John Fenderson (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:38am

Not fair use
"The fact that the public needs to beg for fair use rights seems pretty crazy."

True. But jailbreaking your phone isn't even a fair use question. It's not even a copyright question. It's a fundamental (physical) property right question. That the anti-circumvention portion of the DMCA prevents doing this is insane.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:52am

I submitted my inputs.
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btrussell (profile), 1 Feb 2012 @ 7:46pm

Wow!

Some energy got channeled here on this topic alright.

How about we shoot for the stars and settle for the moon?
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Feb 2012 @ 9:29pm

I see this process as a travesty.
We should let everything be outlawed and let the people feel the pain so they understand what copyright really is.

It is excluding everyone from doing what was, is and always will be normal everyday things.

We should have some pride and negate that process, we should need to beg for scraps, we should have those freedoms not as exceptions but as the foundation of our society, participating on those things is like acquiescing to the validity of those views.

What I want is to the industry to go apeshit about it and sue everyone, so people really understand what they are facing it is not the welfare of artists is the control of your freedom at stake here.
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