US 'Blackmails' EU Into Agreeing To Hand Over Passenger Data
from the you-have-no-more-fundamental-rights dept
A couple months ago, we wrote about a debate in the EU Parliament, concerning an agreement over how much data should be shared with the US on passengers flying from the EU into the US. The person in charge of analyzing the agreement, Sophie in't Veld, urged the Parliament to reject the agreement, saying that it violated EU citizens' fundamental rights. Specifically, the US wanted access to more data with fewer restrictions than the EU felt was fair. However, it appears that after the US pulled out its big gun over this -- threatening to stop allowing EU citizens to visit the US without first obtaining a visa -- the Parliament caved and agreed to the deal. The one big concession from the US, however, was that EU passengers will be able to see their records and correct errors. Sophie in't Veld is still not happy -- and for good reason:"This Agreement is contrary to European Treaties and privacy laws and does not meet the minimum criteria set by Parliament itself. Diplomatic relations with the United States appear to be more important than the fundamental rights of our own EU citizens."In a statement sent to Techdirt, she also noted that, in caving, the EU Parliament "loses its credibility and EU citizens draw the short straw." Part of the problem is just how unequal the setup is, with the US getting tons of power over EU citizens. And, of course, the fact that the EU caved to the US sets a bad precedent. "The Trans-Atlantic relations need to become more balanced. EU should take a less timid stance towards the US." In the end, she notes that what happened was "almost to the extent of blackmail."
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Filed Under: data sharing, european union, rights, visa
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How can we fix our government when every other government wants to be like ours!?
All that does is add fuel to the fire... then our government uses excuses like: "We need to keep our policies consistent with the rest of the world." WTF?
It seems to be a chicken/egg issue, and while our government often starts it, it seems everyone else goes along with it until it's a complete disaster in the end.
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OK, so maybe that won't work, but then in the senate/house, I can.....vote for one guy who tows a party line I disagree with, or vote for another guy who tows a different party line I disagree with.
Get the point?
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How about we made this kind of agreement mandatorily reciprocal ?
It would be fun seeing US talk its way out of having to give the same info they request so badly...
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Do Americans have to get a Visa to visit EU countries?
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Require every EU citizen to obtain visa to travel to US.
Require every US citizen to obtain visa to travel to EU.
See citizen from which side will protest more against this! In such case, EU Parliament is in better position because it's US who started it.
On the other hand, caving in to this will dismay EU citizen only. That's bad choice even on "game theory" stand point.
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Perhaps this is in need of explanation.
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I knew a girl from Slovakia a few years ago. If I remember correctly, she had to queue for 2 days outside the British embassy to get a visa to visit the UK. I don't believe I would have even needed a visa to go the other way. (Though by the next year, Slovakia had joined the EU and she could just show her passport at the border to get in like someone from any other member state.)
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After they got a foothold here it has been doing downhill generation after generation. The problem is the elites that own everything have massive amounts of power. It's hard to stop someone in their position with practically endless funds.
It's not just the USA or EU they have the better part of the world in their debt. It was like the ship that was "sunk" so they said and we entered Vietnam. 20 Years later the truth came out that it was never even near the area it was supposedly destroyed.
Every dollar in circulation we are paying interest to them. Then with some good ol fashioned fucked up loopholes banks can borrow 1 billion then put up another 90% of that into the computers making it 1.9 then 90% of the 900 million and so on. Inflation is the best way to keep people down since we're all too busy just trying to get by.
These Satanic types worshiping their fairytale devil is a joke. I would just like to do my 60-80 years here and enjoy myself much as I can. In the grand scheme of things 1-2 billions years down the road nothing will be remembered. Probably less since we have a bad habit of using technology to blow shit up.
Einstein - e=mc2!! Goddamn I'm epic.
Our government - WTFBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Japan - OH MY GOD THE END IS HERE!!!
Russia - Oh shit we better get some of them made ourselves.
Saddam Hussein - Yellow cake plox Russia!
Russia - In mother Russia bomb Saddam's you.
USA - Did someone mention cake! I'm starving!!
Canada - LOL
USA - What did you say?
Canada - ... nothing sheesh.
China - Censored sorry..
George Bush - There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again
World - Da fuck?!
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AArrggghhhh :-)
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*puts on tin foil hat*
This is most likely due to many EU countries making biometric data required at border checks. It's making life harder for our spooks, who are used to coming and going under many different identities. If Europe is going to track our spies more closely, its only fair we acquire the data to track theirs back.
*removes tin foil hat*
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Contrast this with, for example, Schengen in the EU. This allows citizens of many EU states to cross each others' borders without showing their passports. Sure there's a loss of control, but there are also big benefits in terms of free movement of people and goods. I'm not saying it's a panacea, and I'm sure others with much more experience can chime in with a more nuanced view, but this sort of setup does have benefits.
* At least in my limited experience.
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I don't want you in my country anyway!
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The correct response...
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So..........
Why do i think i already know the answer?
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Or I wonder why I am starting to hate you! do you know what a Useless P.O.S. is? That is a perfect definition of you!
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U.S. does a lot of bullshitty things that just makes everything complicated, and anything complicated worse.
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Disgusting
While the U.S. is within its rights to ask for more data concerning who comes into the country, shouldn't we let the E.U. decide who gets to get on the planes first?
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Re: Disgusting
They're taking everything, from simple remix of a song to this, way way too seriously....
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO BASIC! I REPEAT! BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS?
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If you make the journey unpleasant then it lessens the enjoyment of the trip, which makes me think I might as well go somewhere else.
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All this means, of course, is that the bad guys now know the rules in detail and can use them to freely enter and leave the States while the rest of us are harassed and bullied in the name of security.
Well done!
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So, what's next? Is the US government going to demand that someone on a flight from EU country A to somewhere in the Middle East must be vetted by Homeland Security
*checks back a few articles*
Oh wait. That's already happened. The US wants data on passengers flying between the UK and Canada, even if the flight never enters US airspace.
What was the rallying cry over the American War of Independence? "No Taxation without Representation"? What about "No Control/Vetting without Representiation"? We're foreigners, not citizens of the US and yet the US is demanding to VET US? To not try us, to declare a punishment/curtailment of our freedom with no chance for us to argue in a court of law?
No wonder I don't want to go to the US. Respond to this thread if you agree not to travel to the US.
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2. ....
3. "Let's piss off the whole world and destroy more US jobs."
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The Northeastern Alliance - Mass., Conn., New Hamp. Vermont, NY, NJ, Penns., Maine, Rhode Island.
The Southern Union - Virginia, W. Virginia, Maryland, N & S Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi
The Midwestern Range - Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Minnesota, N & S Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa
The Sands of the Southwest - Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Nevada, Oklahoma
The Northwestern Union - Oregon, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming
Hawaii and Alaska would be independent nations by themselves. And I think that covers all of them.
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Having realised that we got it wrong in N. America we then went off and messed up India instead!
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Gee, I didn't know that!
Though I have known Brits who land in Vancouver to visit relatives and then want to pop over to Toronto for an afternoon visit.
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Instant recipe for a world war.
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And you realize that you've forgotten that there are regular old citizens who reside in DC (who, even in this theoretical grouping of yours, still have no representation whatsoever). Make all the jokes you want about what DC represents, in many ways it's nothing but a (poorly run) city where ordinary people live.
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I think this is the important part. The states were in control to begin with, but then the Federal government pushed for more and more power and the States gave it to them. If anything, I'd just split California up into two states (North and South) and then revert all power back into the states, but that won't happen.
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If you believe in states' rights, I got news for ya... It ain't really the case. Further, the blue (Dem) states have done quite well while the Red (Rep) have been suffering with their austerity plans. But I'll tell you exactly how to fix the system:
Abolish the Electoral college. There's better systems and quite frankly it's the way to begin the process of allowing better candidates into the White House.
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And the worst state to live in is a blue state.
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Red states take more money in federal spending than blue states.
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Compared to North Dakota economically (Best state, Red)
Please don't generalize, things are crap all across the country.
As for SOME of those red states in the mid-west, please remember that they were hit with a MASSIVE flood last year and are still recovering from it.
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now that Obama is in office...
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My Country is getting more unpopular and hated throughout the World.Hate my asshole Government but don't hate the many of us who would love to see it torn down and replaced.
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Uhmmm
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I hate to disturb you in your government-supplied comfort cocoon, but the US destroyed "tourism in the US" all by itself in the last 10 years.
Personally, I'd rather stick two forks in my eyes than go there. The US acts like a huge gun-totin' mind-controlled rambo (or is it dumbo?) cult.
What did they do to you poor bastards to make you so horrible?
Thuh terrists wun.
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They did.
All they have to do is sit back and laugh at the United States as it destroys itself.
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Take the hint, free citizens of the free world.
In my world the punch-line would be: "that's a feature, not a bug."
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2nd point is, yet again, the USA has to use threats, even against it's so-called allies, just to get it's own way. it's the same as 'if you dont play what game i want, i'll take my ball home'. how absolutely fucking pathetic is that??
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Before we get going, let's understand something: The US is a sovereign nation, and as such, may set the rules required for entry into it's territory - even if it is only in an aircraft overflying it's territories.
In many countries, that requirement would be an entry visa or such, or on the case of a countries like Russian and China, it was that no aircraft could even fly in it's airspace. Still others may require decontamination of an aircraft upon arrival, or each passenger is interrogated before being allowed on a flight.
As such, what the US asks for passengers inbound to it's country is not outrageous. Rather, it's pretty smart - why accept someone onto a flight who isn't going to be allowed into the US anyway? It seems like a pretty good way to control security risks, making sure that those who are clearly a risk can't even get to the country.
Now, the spin: "almost to the extent of blackmail" is a great phrase, it certainly can give you a visual / mental impression of what is going on. But it is truly spin, because the EU minister is completely ignoring the sovereign rights of the US. The US has the right to refuse access to anyone. They have the right to determine what aircraft can and cannot come into the US.
The minister does protest too much. EU citizens can choose NOT to go to the US, and thus not have to give their information to the destination country.
There is no invasion of privacy, only an invasion of self-serving politicians trying to spin this into their favor.
I wonder what her stand was when websites all over the world were forced to use EU privacy guidelines?
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You are right - the US has the right to let whoever they want in, or not.
But they also have the right to be treated exactly the same back. That is what the EU's response should have been.
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Remember, what the US is asking for isn't making the EU travelers have to do much more than they did before. In fact, it's making the EU agents and airlines do what they always should have had to do to start with, which is KNOW THEIR CUSTOMER. They need to know who they are dealing with.
The EU needs to realize that the US is right on this issue, and that if they want to have their citizens travel to the US, that they have to deal with it.
Here's an example of "the rules" when you get to the extreme end. If you want to travel to China, you need a visa. In order to get that Visa, you have to do something that is totally disagreeable to most people: You have to hand over your passport to them for a week or more. That's means you legal ID in someone else's hands. It's the only way to get the visa. Your choice is do it and travel there, or don't do it and don't travel there. We always have choices. Any time you think the US is being too demanding, just remember what demanding really is.
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In Nothing We Trust
This showed up on Slashdot this morning. If it is true (polls should always be suspect) I wonder when or if it will show up in the elections?
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Could be the main reason why so few bother to vote in the EU election..
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their big guns..
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I did My part, when will you do it?
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American in Europe
As this is a techy group, the best analogy that I can come up with is IT security. The EU has security in depth, while the US is sticking with perimeter defense. Of course that security in depth comes at a price, and the price is privacy. Personal data is much more readily shared within EU countries than it is in the US (example, Denmark sends its citizens their completed tax forms for "approval" at the end of each year). Big brother is always watching, its just a matter of how visible and pervasive his presence is felt.
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Re: American in Europe
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I'm a US citizen and I just assumed that I would need a passport or visa to travel to a foreign country. Canada and the Bahamas are fine with driver's license/ID but I assumed anywhere else would *require* a passport or visa.
I'm actually surprised that apparently there are countries I could travel to without needing anything! Really???
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I've made it a personal mandate that I will never ever visit the US. The government is too damn paranoid and I simply don't trust them.
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Power crazy Yanks
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