Australian Government Plans To Continue Holding Secret Anti-Piracy 'Stakeholder' Meetings With Industry; No Consumer Advocates Allowed

from the ridiculous dept

Mon, Apr 23rd 2012 10:01pm — Mike Masnick

You may recall that the Australian government has been holding a series of secret "anti-piracy" negotiations between the entertainment industry and ISPs. When more information was sought via a Freedom of Information request, the Australian Attorney General sent a fully redacted document, claiming that it was "not in the public interest" to reveal how the industries and the government would be screwing over the public (slight paraphrase). This, alone, is ridiculous. However, getting even more ridiculous is that, following the High Court ruling saying that ISPs are not liable for infringement by their users, the AG has said such meetings will continue:

The Federal Government would “closely examine” the High Court’s judgement in the long-running copyright infringement case won by ISP iiNet over film and TV studios this morning, Federal Attorney-General Nicola Roxon said this afternoon, as she noted that closed-door talks held by her department with industry on the matter would continue.

Thankfully, iiNet's CEO seems to realize that with this ruling in hand, he doesn't need to give in to industry blackmail. While noting that the meetings had been "been going around in circles," in the wake of the High Court ruling, iiNet CEO Michael Malone announced at a press conference that "My preference would be to walk away now." If only it were that easy.

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Filed Under: australia, liability, negotiations
Companies: iinet

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Random, 23 Apr 2012 @ 10:16pm

Why can they not embrace a new model for distributing content. Is it they will loose the power of telling us what to watch or is it purely about money.

More importantly its another way for the federal government to screw us more, gee better get some more lube.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 10:26pm

Love the way your blogs always contain at least one 'slight paraphrase', which is invariably a slur on someone you don't agree with.
Claiming 'secret meetings' is also a loaded phrase.
I believe it's been normal practice for the Australian Labor government to hold closed session meetings with industry stakeholders when consulting on changes to any law.
Pirates are breaking current law, so why they would be worthy of a place at the negotiating table I'm not sure.
In the meantime, Aussie ISP's are at the table. So unless you think the ISP's having won in the courts, are too weak, then I'm sure they are perfectly capable of representing themselves and their customers in this negotiation process.
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Renai LeMay, 23 Apr 2012 @ 10:56pm

The latest
hey Techdirt guys,

thanks for the coverage :)

The latest on this issue? A govt review has backed the censorship of documentation associated with the meetings:

http://delimiter.com.au/2012/04/24/piracy-meetings-still-censored-no-public-interest/

Cheers,

Renai LeMay
Editor/Publisher, Delimiter
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:05pm

Contact the Attorney General
Here are her contact details, since she does not want anyone from the consumer base being there I am sure she would be happy to hear our issues on this and present them on our behalf. If everyone sends an email maybe it will take her reality distortion field glasses off for long enough to read one.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov.au/Contacts/Pages/default.aspx
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:10pm

Re: Contact the Attorney General
Personally i think she's doing a great job, and may write to tell her so.
Thanks for the address.
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ImTheRhino (profile), 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:13pm

You obviously have no idea how incompetent the Labor Party is.
People love to through down terms such as "meetings with industry stakeholders" and other variations with the key word being stakeholder. It is a sad state of affairs when the public who pay for these services are ignored as stakeholders, and the only people who get a say are the people who donate vast sums of money, while the real stakeholders get to shake our heads at the pure stupidity of what gets jammed down our throats as being good for us.
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The Moondoggie, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:13pm

Re:
'secret meetings' = closed session meetings

That much is very clear.

Aussie ISP's are at the table. So unless you think the ISP's having won in the courts, are too weak, then I'm sure they are perfectly capable of representing themselves and their customers in this negotiation process.

Is it really hard to listen and give the customers of ISP's what they want, and how they want it? Do IP maximalist find it hard to talk to the common people and instead talk to ISP about how to repress and control what the common people wants? Because the way I see it, if only copyright holders listen to us and give what we want how we wanted it, there is no reason for us to pirate.

ARE COPYRIGHT MAXIMALIST THAT MUCH DUMB? Or is it about money?
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:26pm

Re: Re: Contact the Attorney General
Personally if I saw you on fire I would not piss on you to put it out. Stop thieving oxygen from people that would use it better than yourself.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:35pm

Re:
You don't believe in anything unless it is paid for you to believe.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:36pm

"What i want, what we want, what I want, what we want..."
Yep, I was driving around with a couple of ten year olds in the back of my car over the weekend.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:37pm

Re:
Pirates are breaking current law.
Good, they should not only break the law but also stop paying altogether so you people can feel it where it hurts the most and that is your pocket.
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Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:38pm

Re:
Let me guess they wanted to be stars.
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Zakida Paul, 23 Apr 2012 @ 11:51pm

Response to: Random on Apr 23rd, 2012 @ 10:16pm
I agree with this. I don't think it is about money though because they could make a whole lot more by embracing what the Internet has to offer instead of trying to stifle it. No, it is more about there own arrogance in clinging to an outdated business model. They want to control what we watch, and how and when we watch it. The internet lessens that control.
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The Moondoggie, 24 Apr 2012 @ 12:09am

Re:
You could be also mistaken to have been studying history:

Abe: What I want is freedom for the negroes, and democracy for everyone.
South: What we want is to keep them slaves so shut the fuck up Abe.

Hitler: What I want is to kill all Jew prats.
Everyone not Nazi: What we want is for you to GTFO!

Old Catholic Church: What we want is for everyone to worship God...
Non-Catholic: What I want is to worship whom I choose...
Old Catholic Church: Burn him.
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The Moondoggie, 24 Apr 2012 @ 12:09am

Re:
You could be also mistaken to have been studying history:

Abe: What I want is freedom for the negroes, and democracy for everyone.
South: What we want is to keep them slaves so shut the fuck up Abe.

Hitler: What I want is to kill all Jew prats.
Everyone not Nazi: What we want is for you to GTFO!

Old Catholic Church: What we want is for everyone to worship God...
Non-Catholic: What I want is to worship whom I choose...
Old Catholic Church: Burn him.
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G Thompson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 12:26am

Re:
It is a secret meeting the ALP (Australian Labor Party) has actually stated as much.

It is absolutely NOT normal practice for this, since even the senate is concerned about these one sided meetings that minutes are being withheld from even them. This is quite unusual unless for things like national defence or similar.

When the Industry in question only has .5% (yes one half of a percent) of the total Australian GDP and are getting more special treatment than mining or other more beneficial industries you need to wonder what type of duress is the so called **AA's of the USA placing upon the Australian Government . The obvious conclusion drawn doees not bode well for our democratic process.

Pirates are breaking current law
Really? Which laws? please point them out and please show proof that anyone has been charged with these laws in the last 4 years within Australia.

Basically what you have stated shows you have no clue whatsoever about what is happening within Australia or within the laws themselves. Instead you are trying to force your prejudgements on others based on your bias, your culture, and your lack of first hand knowledge.
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G Thompson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 12:41am

Re: The latest
Damn.

Not sure a OAIC appeal would do any good, Ludlam might be best bet though I also suspect they are going to try to drag out the Greens request in the Senate.

The major anomaly in all this is the inclusion of the Communications Alliance which really destroys all the AG's arguments since equity isn't shown on all sides.

Wonder if there might be a way to go after what CA have though... hmmmm it's a long shot but EFA might have standing to do something.

Oh and welcome to TD.. If you ever want some of the trolls here don't hesitate to ask... we have more than we need here *evil laugh*
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G Thompson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 12:45am

Re: Contact the Attorney General
While you are at it you might also mention her fallacious statements in regards to Julian Assange and ask why she has not either resigned nor reported herself to the Victorian law Society for ethical breaches
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G Thompson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 12:47am

Re: Contact the Attorney General
While you are at it you might also mention her fallacious statements in regards to Julian Assange and ask why she has not either resigned nor reported herself to the Victorian law Society for ethical breaches
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 12:48am

Re: Re:
quote
When the Industry in question only has .5% (yes one half of a percent) of the total Australian GDP and are getting more special treatment than mining or other more beneficial industries you need to wonder what type of duress is the so called **AA's of the USA placing upon the Australian Government . The obvious conclusion drawn doees not bode well for our democratic process.

Funny that you should mention the mining industry. The Gillard government had closed door talks with miners when framing the MIneral Resource Rents Tax, just the same way they've held negotiations behind closed doors with ISP's and Content Creators.

quoteWhich laws? please point them out and please show proof that anyone has been charged with these laws in the last 4 years within Australia.
Ahh, the links are numerous. All I can do is point you to a couple, one even from a pro hacker site:
http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/ill-wind-blowing-for-software-pirate-2012 0117-1q4ti.html
http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2012/02/how-youre-breaking-the-law-every-day-and-what- you-can-do-about-it/

quoteBasically what you have stated shows you have no clue whatsoever about what is happening within Australia
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G Thompson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 1:04am

Re: Re: Re:
The "mining tax" was held within closed doors for part of it yes but it was also open to community debate and senate reviews.. Or is that not relevant to your viewpoint.

Want to talk about the "Carbon Tax" as well? same situation. The Copyright talks they are having at the moment are not just secret but also undermine the Law Review that is currently in progress that will finalise its recommendations late 2013.

Also I asked for actual Australian laws.. not extradition to US based on US laws, nor a US written article solely for US laws. [From the Lifehacker link: Oz editor note: while the specific laws discussed in this article apply in the US, the general principles also apply in Australia. ]

Show using the Copyright Act (1968) or using the Crimes Act (of any state) any person who has been charged and convicted of a breach of any of these statutes within Australian courts..

Good try though
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The Moondoggie, 24 Apr 2012 @ 1:15am

Re: Re: Re:
Although I didn't find the laws Thompson was asking for I did found this:

From one of your links:

Although you can encrypt and anonymise your BitTorrent traffic or subscribe to a Usenet provider that offers a connection via SSL to protect yourself when downloading anything from either service, you still have no legal right to download any copyrighted content without expressed permission. For now there is little we can do to make this situation better other than encourage the film and television industries to regard piracy as competition. As iTunes has proven with music and cartoonist The Oatmeal has cleverly illustrated, when it�s easier and affordable to use the legal route, that�s the route most people will take.

Really should be a thing to emphasize. This is what should be done by them, and not making more backroom deals, secret meetings and such.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 1:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
What don't you understand about "the general principles also apply in Australia"?

The Mining Tax was wrapped up behind closed doors, that's just a fact. If it wasn't, Andrew Forrest wouldn't have been so pissed off.
Maybe any agreement made between the content industries and ISP's will also go to a senate review. Who knows? Nothing has been decided.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 1:48am

why is it that every government seems to be so intent on bending over backwards to do what ever it possibly can to please the entertainment industries whilst at the same time doing whatever they possibly can to screw over their own citizens? what is it that the entertainment industries have that they can use to blackmail every government so effectively? and please, dont just say money. no industry can pay enough to bribe the whole world! so what is it?
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G Thompson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 1:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Actually stating the "general principles also apply to Australia" is misleading in the extreme. Since Our Laws both criminal and statute (under the CA1968) do not corresponde with US statutes.

For example DRM, fair dealing, backups, illegal compared to unlawful, statutory damages, registration.

need I go on? The US laws are not harmonised with ours other than on a very very elemental level. The only real harmonisation we have is with length of Copyright terms, and that copyright is instantaneous (though we were first with that too).

Comparing US laws with Australian is always fraught with danger, and in the case of copyright anyone who has had major legal and first hand experience with the actual laws within Australia in day to day usage like an IP Solicitor or someone consulting within that field would tell you that.

Don't believe everything that Lifehacker places on their site just because they have a disclaimer about US v AUS so called similarities of laws.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 2:07am

Re:
Sure, maybe pirates shouldn't be at the table - but why shouldn't consumers be at the table? Unless you consider all consumers as pirates which might explain why no one takes you seriously...
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 2:37am

Re: Re: Contact the Attorney General
Go ahead, then. I think there'll be far more people writing in, concerned that she thinks their opinions don't matter.

What was that you shills were talking about those with the minority opinion should just zip it?
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 3:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
@ #22

'Although you can encrypt and anonymise your BitTorrent traffic or subscribe to a Usenet provider that offers a connection via SSL to protect yourself when downloading anything from either service, you still have no legal right to download any copyrighted content without expressed permission. For now there is little we can do to make this situation better other than encourage the film and television industries to regard piracy as competition. As iTunes has proven with music and cartoonist The Oatmeal has cleverly illustrated, when it�s easier and affordable to use the legal route, that�s the route most people will take.'

this is the obvious route, the sensible route, the route that consumers have been asking, no, practically begging for, for ages. it is also the route that the entertainment industries refuse to take.

what needs emphasizing is that not only is it the 'route most people will take' but it is the entertainment industries themselves that refuse to allow this 'route' to be taken, not consumers that wont take it! they should stop blaming everyone else for a situation that they not only created but refused to do anything themselves to alleviate, other than keep getting the bad laws made worse and really pissing off the very people they rely on to make money. how bloody stupid is that?
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 3:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
quote:
For now there is little we can do to make this situation better other than encourage the film and television industries to regard piracy as competition. As iTunes has proven with music and cartoonist The Oatmeal has cleverly illustrated, when it�s easier and affordable to use the legal route, that�s the route most people will take.

Has iTunes reduced music piracy? I wasn't aware it had.
What can be more affordable than illegally free?
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The eejit (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 4:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Cite for statutes: in principia only applies in extremely narrow circumstances when discussing actual law in the relevant states.
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G Thompson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 4:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
For someone who keeps waffling on about laws and principles and all the other stuff you seem to like using the word 'illegal' when in fact under Australian law there is NOTHING illegal about it.

Unlawful maybe, though the actus has to be proven first before it is deemed unlawful.

Criminal =! Civil ... another area where US and Australian statutes/laws depart
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 4:46am

Game Over
Call it what you like - it's pure evil.

One could not be blamed for concluding that most western so-called 'leaders' (including those of several major countries) and politicians are corrupt shills of special interests, controlled by them in one way or another, and that both they and that and those who control them must be wiped form the face of the earth for all time.

Hang them all. Then burn them to ashes, Then disintegrate the ashes.

Message to the old-school copyright industry: fuck you – you’re dead.
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abc gum, 24 Apr 2012 @ 4:50am

Re: You obviously have no idea how incompetent the Labor Party is.
Apparently the citizens lack influence, otherwise their opinions would garner equal time next to those of the corporations when considering laws which directly affect everyone.

This outrageous behavior makes me chunder.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 4:51am

Good to see the most violent language in the debate being used by the anti-copyright lobby.
By the way, this from THe Australian Greens Policy Page:
"artists� intellectual property rights to be protected"
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surfer (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 5:05am

Re: representation
by your own logic, your missing the point, 'stakeholder' is a term used to equate interested parties. The public is an 'interested party'.

by your own logic, can I represent you at your 'will hearing'?, I'll be sure and keep your best interests at heart.

Better yet, just send me all your banking information, and I will be sure and start representing you right away.
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surfer (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 5:08am

Re: Re: Re: Contact the Attorney General
I got a better one for the above AC. (not the AC I'm replying to)

I would not wipe the sweat from my balls to save your life if you were dying of thirst in the desert.

*slap*
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surfer (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 5:13am

Dyslexia
I'm a bit dyslexic, did you say 'artists imaginary property right to be protracted' ?
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 5:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Has iTunes reduced music piracy? I wasn't aware it had.
What can be more affordable than illegally free?"

Well, what you aren't aware of could fill the planet. To say the least. What you are blatantly unaware of could fill another. :)

Give people convenience and they'll give you their money. Which is why iTunes is a billion dollar business. It's convenient and easier to use than the free alternatives.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 5:53am

Re:
"I believe it's been normal practice for the Australian Labor government to hold closed session meetings with industry stakeholders when consulting on changes to any law."

Sounds like "secret meetings" to me, boy.

A sphincter by any other name is still an asshole.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 5:57am

Re: Re: Contact the Attorney General
"Personally i think she's doing a great job, and may write to tell her so."

Except she's probably censor or delete your email, boy.
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Niall (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 6:00am

Re:
"When discussing the new strip mine and smelting plant proposed, local government held closed-door meetings with energy and mining company representatives. When this was protested by local environmental and citizen groups they were told 'You little people just go back to your reality TV and let the grown-ups decide what is happening to your backyard. And yes, we have complete assurances no despoiling, poisoning, ripping off or pollution will occur.'"
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Niall (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 6:04am

Re:
Did you say "artists' imaginary monopoly to be fairly and fully compensated by thieving cartel of **AA hucksters"?
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 7:51am

Still trying to figure out why you think that you are a stakeholder in a business you don't work in.

Are you also a stakeholder in a gold mine because you have a wedding ring?
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 8:09am

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 23rd, 2012 @ 11:36pm
Your ten year olds sound a lot like the **AA
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Baldaur Regis (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 8:10am

Re: Re: The latest
Oh, I don't know....it would hard to give up boB or darryl - they provide some welcome relief and even an occasional insight before going off the tracks. But you can definitely trade out that one AC who blunders through here like a drunken frat boy. And the one that has that bizarre fixation on Marcus.
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Baldaur Regis (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 8:21am

Re:
Go find some photos of what coal mining does to West Virginia. Or what copper mining does to Montana. Or what clear-cutting does to the Pacific Northwest. Resource extraction is a necessary process, but company profits shouldn't trump all other concerns. The public ARE stakeholders in most businesses.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 9:00am

I think what these labels have missed in all this is that I and many others will never buy anything from them again no matter what deals they strike.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 9:23am

Your elected officials are supposed to represent their constituents. Perhaps they are, in fact, representing the majority on the many issues before them. Otherwise I presume they'd be voted out. Maybe they don't consider your ability to unlawfully enjoy copyrighted content a big priority.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 9:27am

Re: Re:
A sphincter by any other name is still an asshole.

So says the expert. BTW, boy- a closed meeting is known or announced. A secret meeting is not. Got that, boy?
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Watchit (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 9:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I wouldn't be so quik to say itunes is "easier" to use than the free alternatives... itunes drm is a pain to deal with :P
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Watchit (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 9:49am

Re: Re: Re: The latest
yes, please take the one with the Marcus fixation! He's so annoying :[
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BeeAitch (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 10:48am

Re:
Out for a drive with your intellectual peers, were you?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
gab4moi (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 10:51am

Re: Re: Contact the Attorney General
Sorry, even Nicola doesn't read post(s) from trolls...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
gab4moi (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 10:54am

Re:
Sooooo, have the feds come knocking about your penchant for socialising with prepubescent children?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
gab4moi (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 11:02am

Re:
Utilising faux political naievety cuts no mustard butch...
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John Fenderson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 11:16am

Re:
Pirates are breaking current law, so why they would be worthy of a place at the negotiating table I'm not sure.

Who said they should be?

What I find baffling is that you seem to think the only stakeholders are industry groups and pirates. Not one mention of the largest stakeholder group that would be the most affected by this stuff: the citizens.

And no, the ISPs (or any industry group) do not represent their customers. They represent themselves and their interests, which are often not aligned with that of the general public.
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John Fenderson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 11:17am

Re: Re: Re:
That's a nice bit of hair-splitting, right there.
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John Fenderson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 11:20am

Re:
Are you also a stakeholder in a gold mine because you have a wedding ring?

No, but I am certainly a stakeholder if the gold mine were next door to me, or if they are pushing laws that affect me.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Perhaps, but "secret" sounds more sinister. That's why Kim Dotcom's "mini-me" chose it over 'closed'.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 2:46pm

Re: Re:
Funny, that was the claim when SOPA was killed off.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2012 @ 2:51pm

Re:
You probably downloaded all of their stuff for free. Why would they care? Much of the non-label/non-studio content available for nothing is worth precisely that. Enjoy life cultural exile.
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Jake, 24 Apr 2012 @ 2:54pm

Well I for one would be mighty interested in a fly on the wall documentary about someone setting up a local, officially recognised chapter of the church of kopimism. As has been done in Sweden and one US state already. Just because the **AA mobs would probably self destruct with outrage, and all the inevitable road blocks that would suddenly be erected would display the farcical manipulation goin on by the Governments*.

*plural because it's just as much USA meddling as the Oz gov.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 3:19pm

Re:
Did you offer them candy first? I heard you have to offer them candy before they get in the van.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
John Fenderson (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 4:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Or perhaps he used it because it's a commonly used term for such meetings.
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xebikr (profile), 24 Apr 2012 @ 4:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You can even remove drm from your post and it's still true.
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Watchit (profile), 25 Apr 2012 @ 12:11am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
haha, true that.
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Kevin (profile), 25 Apr 2012 @ 12:42am

Idiotic move
Julie Gillard's government is already treading a thin wire and one of her party's advantages over the opposition is the way they have been dealing with the Internet, especially arguing that optic fibre high speed is necessary and keeping a hands off approach.
All this is changing because of the never ending political interference from USA and the corporation lobbyists wich in many cases mounts to blackmail.
Well Julie if you want votes start standing up for us voters and tell all the anti everything parties to go jump. let them know that you represent a Government for the people not for private industry.
let them know if they have a beef with alleged illegal downloading deal with it through civil courts and not rely on Governments to legislate just for their favor.
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Apr 2012 @ 4:09am

Re: Idiotic move
Keeping a hands off approach???
This is the gang that have been trying to introduce a filter.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
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