New Data Dump Shows Feds Massively Increased Spying On Who You're Talking To

from the well,-of-course dept

Fri, Sep 28th 2012 3:16am — Mike Masnick

While the feds absolutely hate to reveal this kind of info, due to successful legal action by the ACLU, the Justice Department was forced to reveal information on how often they monitor electronic communications of Americans without a warrant -- using what's known as "pen register" and "trap and trace." This kind of surveillance isn't over the actual communications (that's left up to the NSA, apparently), but rather just the info on who contacted whom. For various reasons, such information is considered obtainable without needing a warrant. Not surprisingly, the data shows a rather massive increase in such surveillance by the Justice Department.

The numbers are quite incredible:

In fact, more people were subjected to pen register and trap and trace surveillance in the past two years than in the entire previous decade.

And yet, whenever anyone suggests that maybe, just maybe, there should be a little bit of oversight on these kinds of things to prevent abuse, law enforcement freaks out. Perhaps that's really because they know they're widely abusing the ability to spy on communications, and they don't want to have to admit it. The fact that it took a lawsuit just to get this information (which is required by law) to be released really says something about the state of surveillance by the federal government. And what it says is not good at all.

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Filed Under: doj, pen register, spying, surveillance, trap and trace
Companies: aclu

126 Comments

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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 3:30am

And yet, whenever anyone suggests that maybe, just maybe, there should be a little bit of oversight on these kinds of things to prevent abuse, law enforcement freaks out. Perhaps that's really because they know they're widely abusing the ability to spy on communications, and they don't want to have to admit it.

You just love to jump to the "ABUSE!" claim, don't you? I remember two years ago you kept saying that *I'm* abusing the legal system for profit. Yet, you have never once produced any evidence that I have ever done anything like that (and you can't produce that evidence, because it's not true). Funny that. It's almost like you just made it up whole cloth in some desperate attempt to lash out at a critic.

Have you ever considered that maybe you could look at the evidence first and then jump to the claim of "ABUSE!" second? Or are you just not wired to work any way other than backwards? I guess you're satisfied with being the Yellow Journalist/Glenn Beck/Rush Limbaugh of IP "reporting." Good on ya!
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 3:35am

Sorry to report this but for a moment thought headline said "new data shows feds taking a massive dump"
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 3:39am

Re:
It's a law of human nature that *everything* left unchecked will corrupt. It's just the way it is.

If you have to wait for evidence first then you're already to late and corruption already happened.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 3:43am

Re: Re:
Also nice one using your own irrelevant anecdote to discredit Mr. Masnick without providing any proper counter arguments.

That's called an ad hominem.
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Zakida Paul (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 3:53am

And America is known as the land of the free, what a load of bollocks.

Your government are quick to condemn any middle eastern country who perpetrate such surveillance on their citizens but it's all fine and dandy when it suits their own agenda.

US hypocrisy makes me sick.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:14am

Re:
How many times have you called Mike a pirate apologist?

Has the proof of that ever materialized?
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:22am

Re: Re: Re:
That's called an ad hominem.

It was certainly an ad hominem when he accused me of abusing the legal system for profit, even though he had zero evidence to back it up. My point is that Mike has no evidence here to back up this claim either: "Perhaps that's really because they know they're widely abusing the ability to spy on communications, and they don't want to have to admit it." He throws out the weasel word "perhaps," but clearly he is spreading FUD and trying to discredit law enforcement. Where's his evidence that "perhaps" this is true? Oh yeah, there is none. Just like when he attacked me for being an abuser without any evidence. Bottom line, Mike jumps to conclusions about people being abusers--just like a yellow journalist would. It's not an ad hominem to point out the fact that he jumps to conclusions and works backwards.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:28am

Laws are there for the benefit of the people, not to accomodate Law Enforcement. This means that Law Enforcement should abide by the law, just as the average Joe is expected to do. If I see that Law Enforcement doesn't respect the law, why should I? See where this could be going?
Trust lost = state in decline
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:38am

Maybe, just maybe, they have found this to be a particularly effective way of dealing with terrorists threats, and that the general lack of terrorist activities these days are in part because of this?

Oh wait, you preferred it the old way, right? I know about 2500 people who would disagree with you if they were around to do so.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:41am

Re:
Laws are there for the benefit of the people, not to accomodate Law Enforcement. This means that Law Enforcement should abide by the law, just as the average Joe is expected to do. If I see that Law Enforcement doesn't respect the law, why should I? See where this could be going? Trust lost = state in decline

Yep, law enforcement must abide by the law. No please explain how law enforcement using a "pen register" or "trap and trace" without a warrant is illegal.

I'll give you a hint:
This case presents the question whether the installation and use of a pen register constitutes a "search" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment, made applicable to the States through the Fourteenth Amendment. ***

Given a pen register's limited capabilities, therefore, petitioner's argument that its installation and use constituted a "search" necessarily rests upon a claim that he had a "legitimate expectation of privacy" regarding the numbers he dialed on his phone. This claim must be rejected. ***

We therefore conclude that petitioner in all probability entertained no actual expectation of privacy in the phone numbers he dialed, and that, even if he did, his expectation was not "legitimate." The installation and use of a pen register, consequently, was not a "search," and no warrant was required. The judgment of the Maryland Court of Appeals is affirmed.
Smith v. Maryland, 442 U.S. 735 (1979).
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:43am

Re:
Maybe, just maybe, they have found this to be a particularly effective way of dealing with terrorists threats, and that the general lack of terrorist activities these days are in part because of this?

Wait. You think law enforcement is actually enforcing the law and keeping us safe? Blasphemy! Did you not get your allotment of anti-government/anti-authority Kook-Aid.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:48am

Re: Re:
How many times have you called Mike a pirate apologist?

Has the proof of that ever materialized?

Really?!?!? The proof can be found here: http://www.techdirt.com

Can you point to a single article where he sided with the artist/author whose rights were being violated by pirates? Nope.

Yet I can point to thousands of articles where he defends the pirates, claims that piracy causes no harm, tells people they should embrace piracy, hyper-focuses on anything a rights holder does while giving pirates very little scrutiny, etc.

This blog is the No. 1 pirate-apologist blog on earth.

You guys are too much.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:55am

Re:
... you kept saying that *I'm* abusing the legal system for profit

Dude, chill out, this article is NOT about you ...
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, I get you vitriol now, It's personal. Did "pirate mike" upset you some time in the past by calling you out on some weasel lawyer type activity and it stuck in your craw, choking you like a sudden realization of a life misspent?

Just what kind of weasel word is perhaps? I take it as a word that means something, like all others. It, in this instance, signifies that Mike is making a conjecture as to the possible reasons for the freakout.

"Perhaps" you should step back from your rabid hatred of Mike for a minute and think about the stupid shit you post on this site. You do end up looking like a fool, or should I say tool, most of the time.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:59am

Re:
Yeah dude, there was a real surge in unreported, secret terrorist activity right around 2006. Before then, everything was calm, right?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:00am

Re: Re:
Worse than that, I actually think that air traffic controllers keep planes generally a safe distance apart, and that the FDA occasionally reviews drugs before approving them.

Worse yet, I think that law enforcement types generally operate with good faith and good intentions. Not all the time, not every case, but generally.
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gyffes, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:01am

Hah
Here we see average_ho arguing... with himself. Go away, funny little man, big people are talking.

As to the question of whether "the feds" have achieved anything via their well-documented wiretapping (illegal and otherwise), that's pretty-well settled: every "terrorist" bust the FBI has conducted in the last 10 years has been nurtured, fed, watered, encouraged, supplied and in some cases almost entirely peopled by.. the FBI! Woo! "Let's make us some terrists to nail!" must be on all the tshirts they hand out at initiation.

This is bogus and egregious. And just because some damned judge somewhere said it was legitimate doesn't make it so: sometimes, judges are later viewed as having.. *gasp* erred.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:02am

Re: Re:
Dude, chill out, this article is NOT about you ...

I never said or thought it was. I'm merely pointing out that he jumps to conclusions about people abusing the system. Without evidence, he accused me of abusing the system. And here he is again doing the same thing. It's a pattern.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:03am

Re: Re: Re:
OMG. Next you'll say that you don't hate this country and everything about it. It's too much! I can't take it!
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:05am

Re: Re:
It's all about him. It always has been and always will be. Mike has slighted him in the past and he is a one trick pony. On his deathbed he will utter the words "pirate mike done me wrong, please sky daddy send him to an eternity of damnation."

Then he will close his eyes and his lips will curl up in a little smile, confident in the knowledge he is going to a better place. A place where everything everywhere is monitored, licensed, and redacted without end.
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anon, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:05am

wikileaks
The rise coincides with wikileaks getting in the news.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:08am

Re:
They are! All over the average US citizen.

Ah the home of the brave and the land of the free.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:08am

Re: Re: Re:
that's not even about piracy dumbass, oh I get it, the whole damn site. Clever boy, dumbass but clever.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:09am

Re: Re: Re:
Ok, if you want to play it that way.

The proof that you are a abusing the legal system for profit can be found here:

http://www.techdirt.com/user/average_joe

It's in there, in the middle of those 2000+ comments you made. Anyone that denies it is stupid.

Also, the proof that ancient cultures on Earth had contact with alien astronauts in the past is in Stonehenge. I mean, just look at it, the proof is RIGHT THERE.

(this is the part where you realize that your argument makes no sense, say you are sorry, and we all move on with our lives)
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's definitely personal. Mike has been very abusive to me, as well as to any other person who dares question the man behind the curtain. I've been abusive to him as well. Yet, I have apologized and admitted that I lost my cool. Mike has never once admitted any fault or apologized, nor do I think he ever would/could.

Nor does Mike ever engage anyone substantively who points out obvious errors in his "reporting" about copyright. He's obviously not interested in getting at the truth about things. He's more interested in spreading his anti-IP agenda, facts and reality be damned. I've never seen a man so willing to tear apart anyone and anything who dares to think differently than him, yet so completely unwilling to talk about his own beliefs. It's truly amazing to watch.

"Perhaps" is a weasel word because it allows him to impugn and discredit law enforcement without any actual facts to back it up. When called out on it, he can claim, "I said 'perhaps'!" It's a common tactic amongst the tinfoil hat demagogue types. "Perhaps" Mike should base his claims on facts. I know, I know. That's crazy! It'll never happen.
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Awww - it's all about AJ.
There there.
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:17am

Re:
"US hypocrisy makes me sick."

As it does to many of its citizens.

As is usually the case no matter what country, the common folk have little to nothing to do with the setting of policy or the resulting hypocrisy and those that pay attention are usually sickened by it.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
While I agree that this article has a negative undertone towards law enforcement I don't think it's entirely unwarranted.

As you can see by the pretty graphs (aka evidence) and their past reactions it's quite obvious they're spinning out of control and need a reality check.

About your specific quote, my guess is Mr. Masnick is getting tired of seeing law enforcement abuse the rights & try to spy as much as they can get away with. I don't think the conclusion he draws is far fetched at all.
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:19am

Re: Re:
As many realized some time ago - there is a difference between right and legal.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
So no, amongst the thousands of articles written by Mike about piracy, you can't find a single one where he sides with the authors or artists who were having their rights violated by pirates. Got it.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
This is interesting, there have been a few occasions where a larger part of this community has pointed out where Mr. Masnick was wrong (with very valid reasons to back it up) where he kept insisting there was no issue.

I can't recall the article, but it was about how google maps and how people don't like having pictures of their home nicely indexed on google maps. Masnick suggested that anyone can drive by your home & take pictures there's no problem by putting all this online & making it easily accessible.

I and a whole lot of people disagree with this, I'd link to the article but I can't find it.

So while I agree with a lot of things, I (and many others) definitely aren't just sheep believing everything Mr. Masnick says.
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:26am

Re: Re: Re:
" I actually think that air traffic controllers keep planes generally a safe distance apart, and that the FDA occasionally reviews drugs before approving them."

Have you been paying attention?

"law enforcement types generally operate with good faith and good intentions. Not all the time"

Those put in places of authority and provided with deadly force should be held to a much higher standard than those who are not.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, you failed to find the proof that you are a abusing the legal system for profit from the evidence I presented? Then maybe there is some sort of problem with you.

But never mind, I'll give you another chance, the same way you gave Mike a chance so many times before:

Prove that you are not abusing the legal system for profit.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Perhaps" the technology is catching up such that law enforcement has better tools and access to records to combat crime. "Perhaps" it was crime that was spinning out of control and these graphs show that law enforcement is starting to more effectively take the offensive. Without more (like evidence of actual abuse), these graphs don't tell us much about how much abuse is happening.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120915/23073220393/how-royal-family-got-world-to-look-naked-photo s-kate-middleton.shtml

Mike made a mistake, Mike posted a correction.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Found it: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120809/03475219973/is-facebooks-facial-recognition-that-scary.sht ml#comments
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:32am

Re: Hah
Average_Joe should probably look a little bit inside himself and take a step back. If it is true that "pirate Mike" (Whoever that is?) has wronged Average_Joe I would suggest that Average_Joe finds a legal angle and gets it overwith that way, contact "pirate Mike" (If he actually exist!) and sets up a meeting to mend the wounds or see a psychologist to get some tools to treat this severe trauma. Only then, can we hope for a better discourse in the discussion.

Point is: AJ is far too focused on sabotaging to actually discuss the content of the articles in itself without implying some malicious intend on "pirate Mike".
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:34am

Re:
re: increased warrentless spying and attempts to hide it

AC -> "Maybe, just maybe, they have found this to be a particularly effective way of dealing with terrorists threats, and that the general lack of terrorist activities these days are in part because of this? Oh wait, you preferred it the old way, right? I know about 2500 people who would disagree with you if they were around to do so."

Logic fail. This fails so badly that it could be used in the classroom as an example of logic failure. Thank you for your contribution to to the curriculum.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:37am

Average joe has had his rights violated by mike, there should be a formal appology such as in New Zealand. He has done nothing but make Average joe feel abused.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You are making various fundamental mistakes (which means I'll never be able to convince you):

1. How are you so sure they actually violate these rights? There's *lots* of circumstances where we can freely use copyrighted material without asking permission / paying. Fair use ring a bell?

2. About more blatant piracy: The cost of punishing pirates the way the MAFIAA is doing is *HUGE*. It's basically dismantling all our freedoms just to get those damn free loaders. Mr. Masnick and others rightfully say that they do not care enough about copyright to give up their fundamental rights.

3. Reality. The point is to make a living, what does it matter if a few people get your stuff for free? If you have plenty fans willing to pay for what you create and you don't have to dismantle our fundamental freedoms then what's wrong?

4. This blog has tons of examples of how people combat piracy without taking away our fundamental freedoms/ privacy.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Good point. I'm happy we agree governments need to be more transparent & actually check to see if their policies have a positive effect.

Read the last paragraph of this article again. That's exactly what Mr. Masnick is suggesting too.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Also "evidence of abuse" ?

I find that breaching people's privacy for no reason at all just to spy on us is abuse (which is exactly what's happening).
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 5:46am

Re: Re: Re:
I think that law enforcement types generally operate with good faith and good intentions.

Gallup Poll �Confidence in Institutions�, June 7-10, 2012

I am going to read to you a list of institutions in American society. Please tell me how much confidence you, yourself, have in each one -- a great deal, quite a lot, some or very little?

��...

The police

26% Great deal
30% Quite a lot
28% Some
15% Very little
1% None
* No opinion

56% Great deal/Quite a lot

��...

The criminal justice system

11% Great deal
18% Quite a lot
41% Some
26% Very little
3% None
1% No opinion

29% Great deal/Quite a lot

��...

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vastrightwing, 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:11am

Symbiotic relationship
Consider the relationship of enforcement agencies and crime. Enforcement agencies want to get bigger and have their budgets increased each year. To do so, they need to justify that by showing an ever increasing threat of some kind. Therefore, I conclude that the very enforcement agencies must not only tolerate a certain amount of crime being perpetrated, but also must find new crimes or worse possibly encourage crimes in order to sustain their enforcement model going forward. I know this is a very cynical view, however, it's in line with Mike's premise that our domestic agencies are forever reaching further and further into the bag to find new threats domestic, foreign or otherwise.
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silverscarcat (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
You can always move to Mexico.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:15am

Average joe, they are mocking you and hiding your glorious comments. Come shine a light on this dark corner of the internet. Show us the way.
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bratwurzt (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:24am

Re: Re: Re:
Pattern? Like someone calling you out on your logo and you swiching it and basically not saying a thing?
Like calling sharers (that is me, I share) pirates and thiefs? Deliberately confusing theft and infrigement? Like LYING about not finding a single article "where he sided with the artist/author whose rights were being violated by infringers" (FTFY) when he has a whole page dedicated to help them adapt to reality of today (Step 2)?

If I could spell hypocrisy and irony with one word, it'd be your middle name.
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Tony MC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:35am

funny how i expected to get a sudden rise around 2001 when 9/11 happened but it's actually much later, about the time Wikileaks happened.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"it's definitely personal. Mike has been very abusive to me"

Wow, dude. If that ego of yours gets any bigger, it's going to need it's own seat the next time you're in a plane....
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:43am

Re: Re: Re:
He is a lawyer wannabe, for the rest of his life he will ignore anything and everything that is right, just for the sake of what is 'legal'. All rational thought left awhile ago.

Which is rather disappointing. I used to defend AJ as a rational thinker back when he tried to make actual legal arguments and actually had discussions. These days its just all insults and accusations. =(
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:48am

Re:
funny how i expected to get a sudden rise around 2001 when 9/11 happened but it's actually much later

Perhaps linked to decrease in NSL abuses?

U.S. Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, �A Review of the FBI's Use of Nation Security Letters: Assessment of Corrective Action and Examinantion of NSL Usage in 2006�, March 2008
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JaseP, 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:49am

Re: Re: Re:
The very fact of monitoring is abusing the system. Masnick doesn't need to go any further than that. The Constitution sets out a relationship between the State and the People. Gov't in the US is supposed to govern by consent of the People.

It's layed out in the themes presented in the first 10 Amendments. Those Amendments were, basically, an apologetic appeal to the People by the "Founding Fathers" as a way to assure them that the new State would not be set up in tyrannical fashion. It was only after they were proposed and ratified that the Constitution gained popular appeal with the People. That was what the Federalist Papers were all about...

Whenever Gov't acts in a way that is contrary to the "Bill of Rights" the People are, and should be, justifiably concerned. Why should the Gov't be able to pry into my, or anyone else's, private affairs without probable cause and a valid warrant?! I can't think of a valid reason,... only some invalid ones...
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Tony MC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:50am

Re: Symbiotic relationship
they already do that. have you missed all those fake FBI terrorist plot stories lately?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:51am

I would guess Mike is being spied upon by like 10 agencies right now.

Prolly has gps trackers in his car, cellphone taps and his webcam is used to monitor him.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 6:53am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
" All rational thought left awhile ago."

Yeah, some time back when he started derailing "Funniest/Most Insightful" threads with "why won't you debate me?!"

I agree though. There were times when AJ would actually come off as reasonable, but he could flip from article to article from perfectly reasonable to slinging ad homs like a madman. Nowadays he just slings ad homs and moves the goal post whenever he tries to come off as "wanting to have a discussion", which happens whenever someone proves him wrong on a given point. "Well, what I meant to say and was referring to/asking about was..." Because we're all supposed to read his mind and address any and all future points he MAY bring up eventually, so that he isn't ever wrong (even when he is).
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Gregg, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:10am

Years ago my work place was invaded with video surveillance cameras and people got upset with them. There was theft and there was abuse of the video cameras. Both sides fought and I understand the employees side, and I understand the employers side. in the end I just always assumed there was a video camera on me at all work places.

The same concept applies today with the internet. There are valid arguments for both sides.

But I'm not going to weigh my opinion in on the argument instead I'm going think like my old job, I'm going to assume that someone is always reading my emails, posts, blogs and status.

It's not right, but it works. I think everyone should write more and more boring stuff to read and send it to everyone to continue with the same boring stuff. Eventually there will be a critical mass of boring stuff bringing the spy guys to suicide :)
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Tony MC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:27am

Re:
or use FOSS and encryption.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, he corrects obvious mistakes. Given how quickly he rushes to publish his inadequately researched articles, it's not surprising that there are many. I'm saying that he won't engage people (especially critics) on his misstatements of copyright law.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
How is egotistical to point out the fact that he has been extremely rude to me?
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
There is no reasonable expectation of privacy in the numbers you dial on your phone or the addresses you send an email to. That information must necessarily be given to intermediaries who make the connections for you.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So you can't to one, just one, single article where Mike sides with the authors/artists instead of the pirates. Got it.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
The Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable searches. These aren't even "searches," as the Supreme Court language I posted below indicates.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, because we know you're the victim in this and that you yourself have NEVER been extremely rude to Mike, Leigh or anyone else on this site. /s

Please, get off your cross already. What is apparent for any and all to easily see about you AJ is that you can dish it out but you can't take it. You're always the first to denounce others for making insulting comments and yet you're also (almost always) the first to enter an article and leave an ad hom laden comment about Mike. And it happens day in and day out.

So yes, it is quite egotistical of you to go "but but but Mike started it". He may have, I honestly don't know. But I doubt it, and I definitely doubt you didn't have it coming or say something first.

But the part that matters is "grow the fuck up". Get over it, move on, etc. But the truth is you don't want to.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:49am

Re: Re: Re:
It's not all about me. I'm pointing out that Mike is spreading FUD on this, claiming that "perhaps" there is abuse. But he has no evidence of abuse. Wouldn't it be more productive to write about things for which he has evidence? You know, shouldn't he be held to the same standards that he holds everyone else?
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:50am

Re: Re: Hah
I'm pointing out that Mike has no evidence for his claim that "perhaps" there is abuse. Sorry to question your leader. Obviously critical thought is shunned on TD.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:54am

Re:
instead ... I'm going to assume that someone is always reading my emails, posts, blogs and status

Q:How can you tell that the Stasi has bugged your apartment?

A: There's a new cabinet in it and a trailer with a generator in the street.(*)

�

(*)(Explanation for Western readers: This is an allusion to the underdeveloped state of East German microelectronics.)
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I said it already in the comments to this very article. I have been rude to Mike in the past. Absolutely. It was wrong of me to act that way, and I've let my emotions get the best of me. I've acknowledged that it was wrong, and I've apologized. I get a lot of shit from a lot of people on TD--more so than probably any other person--and sometimes it gets to me. I'm only human.

Mike on the other hand has never once even acknowledged that he's been rude to me, much less apologized. Nor do I think he ever will. I would greatly value that apology.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No, 'unwarranted' is the kind of surveillance that law enforcement uses these days. This article is, if anything, being generous.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:07am

Re:
2700+ comments. Your name belies who you are. No "average" person with a real job can spend that much time posting at a blog. Who are you, really?
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:30am

Re: Re:
LMAO! Mike knows *exactly* who I am, because I let him know. It's none of your business, though.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"How is egotistical to point out the fact that he has been extremely rude to me?"

How is it NOT egotistical to interject yourself and personal issues w/Mike and/or Techdirt in the comments of an article that has ZERO to do with you?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:42am

Re: Re: Re:
The point wasn't to get your identity. The point was that you are VERY FAR from average. The fact that you picked that name shows you are a liar.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I pointed out that Mike had no basis for claiming that "perhaps" there was abuse here, just like he claimed with no basis that I in fact abuse the law for profit. Do you not understand analogies? That's not thrusting myself into the comments. That's me pointing out a flaw in Mike's position. I know you can't stand it when anyone challenges him.
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:51am

Re: Re: Re:
This has to be one of the most idiotic comments I've seen this week.

Can you point to a single article where he sided with the artist/author whose rights were being violated by pirates? Nope.

This is a highly leading question. What do you mean by "violated by pirates"? Even if this is so, it's not even relevant to your point. This is not an anti-, or pro-, piracy site. The question is, what evidence is there that the site is pro-piracy?

Yet I can point to thousands of articles where he defends the pirates, claims that piracy causes no harm, tells people they should embrace piracy, hyper-focuses on anything a rights holder does while giving pirates very little scrutiny, etc.

Find me one single article where piracy is defended as a justified activity or that advocates that people engage in it. I've been reading the site for years and haven't seen such a thing, but I'll admit that I don't read every single article.

Where you may be getting confused is when there are articles talking about the damage IP laws are causing to society in general (and artists and labels in particular) and ways to operate in a an environment where piracy is a thing without causing such damage.

To acknowledge that piracy is a factor and to offer ways to work with that fact is a long way away from saying that piracy is wonderful.
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Find one that sides with the pirates.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Do you not understand analogies?"

Do you not understand that analogies and egotism are not mutually exclusive? Do you not understand that, of all the possible analogies you could have made, your choosing your own personal affront is what I'm referring to? Do you not understand this steady defense of such egotistical behavior is in itself egotistical? Do you not understand that starting dismissive sentences with "do you not understand" is haughty in a way that one might say is egotistical?

"That's not thrusting myself into the comments."

That's true. And by true, I mean completely false on a scale that is laughable.

"I know you can't stand it when anyone challenges him."

Oh, yeah. I'm really concerned. Whenever someone "challenges" Mike my nipples shrivel into innies and my sphincter quivers in anger.

Why don't you just post the link to the Techdirt comments that created this supposed affront to demonstrate your point. I, for one, would love to see it....
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Have you been paying attention?"

Yes, have you been reading? "generally". There are exceptional cases, but when you consider the number of flights in the US each day, and the number of controller actions during those flights (even a short haul flight, up and down, would deal with 5-10 different controllers) I would say that generally they do a good job.

Now, the media tends to dwell on the exceptional cases, so people like you are deluded into thinking that planes are flying into each other and dropping out of the sky with regularity. It's the same way Mike builds a case against patents and copyright, by highlights the very small percentage that don't go right.

"Those put in places of authority and provided with deadly force should be held to a much higher standard than those who are not."

Ahh, so you want them to no longer be human, to have no emotions, no feelings, and no nothing. Call in Robocop.
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 8:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's an opinion piece (like all of the articles here), not an exercise in investigatory journalism. Judge it by what it is.

It's not even a very radical opinion. I rather suspect that the vast majority of Americans are sympathetic to it. His point is that given the long and rich history that law enforcement has of abusing such powers, that there is a large increase of exercising such power increases the likelihood that it's being abused and we should be on guard about that.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:05am

Completely derailed...
by average_joe. Who cares? Go cry to your mommy.

Subject at hand, increased electronic surveillance. You really didn't need "proof" in this form to substantiate the fact that our electronic communications are being "tapped" in numerous forms by our own government. The very simple fact that any large data center has a government presense in the form of allocated disk space for them, in some cases going so far as to have their own secured room at the location, should have been a dead giveaway.

In the past 3 years I've visited a half dozen data centers at which there have been rooms with taped over door-windows that have been dedicated to our government. You don't think we need systems at every major data center just to back up government information do you? They're snooping at every location they have this in place. It's not conjecture, it's not jumping to conclusions, it's a simple fact. If you're a tech guy in the trenches at these places you can ask and you get a straight answer; "We're monitoring the data flow at this location." It isn't warranted or targeted, its a very broad system of monitoring with who knows what algorithms in place.

This isn't a conspiracy theory and its not some hidden agenda, its very "in your face" within these data centers. There's no hemming or hawing or political attempt to avoid the truth at all. Welcome to the new order, you may not like it, but its not going to change unless our government changes and that's more than a little unlikely. The general public doesn't seem to care at all, only a very small minority of the population really pays any attention to this stuff at all. Hell, most of the population is willing to give up their privacy completely if they can save $.67 on an online purchase! At least I believe that's what one of the relevant studies showed. If the average citizen of the US is willing to give up all their private info online for saving less than a single dollar what makes anyone think they're going to care about this, especially enough to actually try and do anything about it? *shrug*
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:06am

Re:
It's not right, but it works.

But it doesn't work. If you really operate as if everything you do on the internet is monitored, then that means there is quite a lot that you would avoid saying on the internet, even in communications not intended for general reading.

Which means that the internet cannot be used for free communication. Which means that the internet is without value except as business infrastructure and a media delivery platform. Which means that the internet is a colossal failure.
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E. Zachary Knight (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:07am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I know you are a complete moron and you are just baiting those here. But I thought to myself, "Why the crap not?" Let's feed the troll."

I guess you were absent during the whole Oatmeal saga:

http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=matthew+inman

Now, can you kindly shut up?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Why don't you just post the link to the Techdirt comments that created this supposed affront to demonstrate your point. I, for one, would love to see it...."
I would love to see it as well
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"That information must necessarily be given to intermediaries who make the connections for you."

Nobody is taking issue with giving that info to telcos. The problem is when LE gets it.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"It's definitely personal. Mike has been very abusive to me."

Translation:

"ABUSE! ABUSE!!!"
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh lawks, Angry Joe is doing the classic "answer yes or no, Mr. Witness!" lawyer shtick. Guess he did learn something at that community college law class all those years ago.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Ah look, one of Mike's faithful is being an asshole.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'm a liar because of my screen name? Wow you guys are desperate.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You don't want law enforcement to have the information it needs to fight crime?
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Rikuo (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:30am

Re:
The day afer 9/11, I met a friendly guy on the street, who convinced me to buy a magic rock. Since then, there hasn't been a single terrorist attack in my country (Ireland if you really want to know). Clearly, my rock is to be praised for stopping terrorism!
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Is there such thing as an average person? I don't agree with AJ's views but I am also against making accusations without merit.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:04am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Still waiting on the link for where Mike horribly wronged you, big guy....
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
See Joe. And this is why a lot of people don't respect you and never will.

He didn't even insult you that badly, just pocked your semi-profession (and not even that badly at that). Then you come back with "asshole". See, the ADULT thing to do would be to just ignore the comment aimed at you entirely. Not even respond to it. But oh no, not you. So basically, you bring it on yourself.

You took your shots at Mike, got called out on it, climbed up on your cross, and all the while saying people are being mean to you, you kept giving them reasons to be disrespectful to you. And it's more hilarious because you kept saying you're not egotistical, yet here we are. Half the comments are about you and your weird obsession with Mike and how he apparently picks on poor little ol' you.

[shakes head in amusement]
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ltlw0lf (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:28am

Re: Re:
Clearly, my rock is to be praised for stopping terrorism!

"Most people in America right now think of Iraq as a dangerous country. Now, if I were to stand up, I might get killed. But to us, behind this wheel it's pretty safe. So to us, Iraq is a safe country. Right here, I feel pretty safe. Do you feel safe?" - Lt. Nathaniel Fick
"Pretty Safe, I guess." - Evan Wright
"See? It's all Relative"

From Generation Kill, by Evan Wright

It is, as always, relative. Your rock is saving you, and I hope my freedom is saving me. Yet I fear that your rock is protecting you a little better than my freedom is at the moment.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I thought they didn't respect me because I question the Man Who Shall Not Be Questioned. Huh.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well I don't think that crime is a major problem, and I don't feel that it is such a big concern that we need to give up our right to privacy. Some level of law enforcement may be necessary, and it certainly is in some parts of the country, but right now I am much more concerned about law enforcement violating my rights than I am some random criminal attacking me.
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's a FUD piece, like so many others on TD, that is meant to impugn and discredit anyone in a position of authority in this country.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
STILL waiting on that link, hotshot...
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 12:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Same strawman as "well if you have nothing to hide, why worry"....

Guess what i have nothing to hide, but i still dont want fuckwits in my email, my house, my cell, or anything else...
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 12:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wish he would get on a cross * where is that spear again?*
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 12:25pm

Re:
Hey, welcome to the club. It's making most U.S. citizens sick too.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 12:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Ah, look, Angry Joe getting angry again. And rude!

Hey Angry Joe, are you going to apologize for being rude?
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average_joe (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 1:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's not rude to point out the fact that you're being an asshole. Don't worry. I know you're not capable of actually saying anything substantive. Mike prefers his legions to be mindless idiots. You fit the bill perfectly. Congrats.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 1:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
That's excellent! This means you admit that Mike was never abusive to you. He was just pointing out the fact that you are a douchenozzle scumbag liar that abuses the law and trolls blogs trying to derail conversation for some personal agenda :)
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 1:45pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If that evidence is obtained through spying, then I don't want law enforcement to be able to do it without strict supervision.
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 1:47pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
That's not even close to being why you don't deserve respect. That you think it is is just more evidence of why you don't deserve respect.
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 1:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I love your sense of recursion! A FUD comment accusing the post of being FUD. Well done!
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Dark Helmet (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 1:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
HEY! OVER HERE!!! I'm STILL waiting for that link to the most horrific offense you've ever suffered at the hands of Mike! Are you going to post it, or should we all assume you're just making shit up?!?!?!
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Cory of PC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 1:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Does it start with a "M" and end with a "T"? And it's more than that...
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Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 2:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
There is no reasonable expectation of privacy in the numbers you dial on your phone or the addresses you send an email to.

Bullshit.

That information must necessarily be given to intermediaries who make the connections for you.

Yes, and I'm perfectly happy to share it with those intermediaries - the private companies that need the information in order to make it work.

Sharing it with the government is a whole other thing. If the government needs it for legitimate law enforcement requests, I'm fine with that - thats what warrants are for. But these are warrantless intrusions into our private lives by the government. Even worse, thr ACLU had to take the government to court to get this information, which the government was supposed to make available according to the law.

Maybe in your fascist paradise, you think this is okay, but I do not. (Sorry for the insult, but you spent the week calling me a hippie, so deal with it.)
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Cory of PC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 2:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Idiots do have minds, Joe. Albeit their intelligence isn't pretty high, they can think. Though I call myself an "idiot" sometimes (this is more than less me commenting on my lack of knowledge, of course), I do view myself as mindless or a true idiot.

Got another insult you can use on us, Joe?
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 2:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
This takes me back to last year when Angry Joe had his complete emotional breakdown and started insulting everybody indiscriminately... then started calling everyone a Big Meanie for being abusive to him! Hilarious! :D

"I'm not being rude, I'm just calling you mindless idiots! That's not rude at all! Also, the law! And apologize to me! You big MEANIE! Abuse!"

"Help! Police! Murder!"

"I have a law degree!"

Then he ragequit and started cowering under the Anonymous Coward nickname to pretend that he wasn't reading this site anymore. Every second of his life, not being able to stand not knowing if we were saying something behind his back.

My, how they've grown... :)
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 2:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The Supreme Court may not think they're searches, but they obviously are nonetheless. You keep quoting the law as if that makes everything OK. It doesn't. the problem is the law, and the supreme court is a large part of that problem.
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John Fenderson (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 2:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Ahh, so you want them to no longer be human, to have no emotions, no feelings, and no nothing. Call in Robocop.

That's quite a leap, going from "held to a higher standard" to "robocop".

The fact is that police must be held to a higher standard of conduct, and be subjected to a high degree of oversight, precisely because we give them exceptional powers that are easy to abuse.

It's not that all cops abuse their powers, but that when the small percentage do, the consequences are significant. not just to their victims, but to the ability for honest cops to do their jobs.
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Cory of PC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 2:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well, you don't have to be a liar because of your user name. You're just one in general.
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Cory of PC (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 2:46pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Can I ask you something: what is there to understand about copyright law? As far as I know, it's a jumble mess. Care to explain it as simply as possible?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 4:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Authority needs to be questioned. Always. Sometimes it is justified, sometimes not. If we aren't at least scrutinizing their behavior and discussing our opinions, we are giving up whatever democratic control we have left to those in power.
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"the media tends to dwell on the exceptional cases, so people like you are deluded into thinking that planes are flying into each other and dropping out of the sky with regularity."

Wow - what are you smoking? I am not the one who is delusional.

Sorry - I'm not all that comfortable with generalities where specifics are more appropriate:
- Generally, we prevent airplanes from flying into each other ... well isn't that special!
- And, the FDA occasionally reviews drugs before approving them - this really improves the level of confidence.

Now you might reason that the above is an endorsement for pre-flight anal probes - but you couldn't be further from the truth.
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"the consequences are significant. not just to their victims, but to the ability for honest cops to do their jobs."

This is the biggest travesty.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
In another recent poll, 25% of Republican party members think Obama was born in Africa, and at smaller percentage think he is related to Saddam Hussein (because of his middle name).

surveys can say anything you want, doesn't make them true.
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abc gum, 28 Sep 2012 @ 7:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Hah
Perhaps the "perhaps" was said with tongue in cheek, because as we all are aware there have been egregious over stepping of bounds in this realm ... remember the retroactive laws which authorized telco wiretapping?

Oh, I'm sorry - were you only addressing one little aspect of the whole entire picture? Yes, was using my broadbrush - my bad.
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JMT (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"I get a lot of shit from a lot of people on TD--more so than probably any other person--and sometimes it gets to me. I'm only human."

You're such a sniveling weasel Joe. You expect us to believe you were rude because everyone was rude to you? How can you be so deluded? People are rude to you because you're rude to everyone. You get shit because all you do is fling shit. The odd nugget of knowledge you bring doesn't even come close to excusing you from you rest of the crap you regularly dump here in an ongoing effort to stroke your own ego and assert your imagined superiority.

"Mike on the other hand has never once even acknowledged that he's been rude to me, much less apologized."

Mike has acknowledged his behaviour towards you multiple times, including today, and explained why you deserve it, and I don't recall anyone disagreeing with him. Are you forgetful or do you willfully block facts from your mind when they don't line up with your latest claim of terrible treatment?
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JMT (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 9:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"It's not rude to point out the fact that you're being an asshole."

OK, Joe you're being an asshole. You really, really are. And that's not rude.
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JMT (profile), 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"It's not all about me."

So stop commenting about yourself. I DARE YOU to make a series of comments in a post and not mention yourself once. I don't think you're capable, but I'd be a pleasant surprise

"II'm pointing out that Mike is spreading FUD on this, claiming that "perhaps" there is abuse. But he has no evidence of abuse. "

Until you can figure out the difference between an opinion blog and a court of law, you're always going to struggle to make a useful point here. There is no need to present evidence of actual abuse in order to make a suggestion that given the long history of abuse of private info by governments, combined with the pretty sold factual info in the graphs, that abuse is very likely to be taking place. You'd be an ignorant fool to think otherwise.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Welcome to the world of opinion blogs, where authors are stating opinions and not reporting on news.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:26pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If there is a reasonable expectation of criminal activity, then get a warrant. Don't continue to give us appeals to authority and act like we're defending criminals when we're defending ourselves from governmental overreach.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Sep 2012 @ 10:41pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Hah
Nah, he just wants Mike to provide proof of his opinion. I wonder if he grew up reading the 'Letters to the Editor' and editorials, and sending letters saying 'Nuh uh! Prove it!'
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