Yes, Apple, You Have To Tell The UK Public That Samsung Didn't Copy You

from the silver-lining:-you're-still-cooler dept

Thu, Oct 18th 2012 8:05pm — Mike Masnick

While Apple won its big case (so far) against Samsung in the US, over in the UK it was the exact opposite, with the judge telling Apple that it needed to run advertisements saying that Samsung didn't copy Apple's products. The silver lining for Apple: part of the judge's reasoning was that Samsung's products just weren't "cool," while Apple's were. Either way, Apple fought back and argued that it shouldn't have to advertise that Samsung didn't copy Apple -- and, in fact, tried again to convince the court that, no, really, of course Samsung copied it.

It appears that strategy has failed, as the judges handling the appeal have refused to overturn the original ruling, saying that it was important that Apple clear up confusion that might occur among the public:

"The acknowledgment must come from the horse's mouth," they said. "Nothing short of that will be sure to do the job completely."

While I find the ruling amusing, I'm really not sure that it makes sense. I find Apple's attacks on Samsung silly and counterproductive, but forcing it to advertise that Samsung didn't copy Apple may go too far in compelling a company to say things.

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Filed Under: advertising, copies, patents, uk
Companies: apple, samsung

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izzitme101, 18 Oct 2012 @ 8:22pm

You can read the whole of the text here, it is worth a look for context.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2012/1339.html
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Oct 2012 @ 8:38pm

Apple thinks they have a right to a patent on rectangular phones. I wish the US would say that Apple needs to do this also.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Oct 2012 @ 8:39pm

How is it going to far, to make them say admit it in public? It won't cost them a lot of money for the advertising. The only cost is to there pride. That seems like quite the reasonable price to pay for trying to be a bully.
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Bergman (profile), 18 Oct 2012 @ 8:49pm

Obviously the judge is at least partially in error.

I wouldn't describe Apple as the horse's mouth. I'd describe them as the other end.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Oct 2012 @ 9:07pm

Let me begin by saying I don't agree with anything Apple.

They filed a suit and consequently lost; so be it. If they filed a false suit then impose a fine, reimburse the defendant, revoke the patent, whatever, but I don't really see where any "justice" is being served by forcing Apple to advertise the ruling of the court.

Although, forcing a con-artist to admit they're just trying to rip people off might get them to stop wasting their money on useless crap.

If they really wanted to do something original, they could buy out the press already telling everyone about the court order to tell everyone about the court's ruling and make them still turn a profit - now that's "innovation."
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G Thompson (profile), 18 Oct 2012 @ 9:31pm

I think paragraph 4 of the ruling states it all:

So this case is all about, and only about, Apple's registered design and the Samsung products. The registered design is not the same as the design of the iPad. It is quite a lot different. For instance the iPad is a lot thinner, and has noticeably different curves on its sides. There may be other differences - even though I own one, I have not made a detailed comparison. Whether the iPad would fall within the scope of protection of the registered design is completely irrelevant. We are not deciding that one way or the other. This case must be decided as if the iPad never existed. [emphasis added]
In other words Apple have been blabbering and screaming to the media and anyone who will listen that Samsung Copied the iPad" when they instead in the UK (and elsewhere) took Samsung to task over the alleged infringement of a registered design (think design patent for those in USA)

This was absolutely wrongful on Apple's behalf and highly misleading to state "copy" in context with the iPad.

Therefore Apple need to pay the piper by making the public aware that Apple wrongfully and fraudulently misled them.
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techflaws (profile), 18 Oct 2012 @ 10:12pm

Re:
Exactly. They didn't think they went to far with claiming publicly (and against their better judgement) that Samsung was copying. Now they have to redact these outrageous statements publicly.
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Jay, 18 Oct 2012 @ 10:31pm

I'm all for this, it just might make other companies thinking about starting in the bullying buisness think twice.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Oct 2012 @ 10:31pm

Well, it's not really Apple saying it, it's the judge saying it.

I do agree that IP is mostly useless and should mostly be abolished, under very limited circumstances it might be good but, by and large, its purpose is to promote income inequality and stifle innovation.
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Oct 2012 @ 11:04pm

I like that Apple has to advertise form Samsung, it's karmic.
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Dionaea (profile), 18 Oct 2012 @ 11:14pm

Re: Re:
I was thinking the same, what's wrong with making them retract statements proven false in court?
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Wally (profile), 18 Oct 2012 @ 11:22pm

Amused.
I sort found it amusing but the thoughts in my head when the ruling came out immediately ran to "It's a very very inappropriate ruling". I can easily tell you why I think that. It goes a tad deeper than counter-productivity.

Simply put, the judge acted inappropriately. Maybe it's just me, (I'm no expert in British Law) but I don't see how that helps either company. I mean you have Apple having to advertise for Samsung saying Samsung didn't copy. However, at the same time the judge made it particularly public fashion that in his opinion, Samsung was a weak product. I'm quite surprised Samsung hasn't grasped the fact that they got humiliated as much as Apple would have in advertising for them.

I like South Korea's ruling inbthe matter best. Everybody's infringement canceled each other out and in South Korea, that ruling was with prejudice.
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Wally (profile), 18 Oct 2012 @ 11:31pm

Re:
Samsung is getting equal humiliation out of this as well. It was a very public case and the judge knew it was. He lost his common sense and basically told a respectable Asian company that their product was inferior and way less cool. I mean that's just unprofessional for any judge or magistrate to do that. G Thompson I was beginning to miss seeing you on here.

I still think South Korea had the best ruling.
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Bergman (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 12:10am

Re:
This. It's simply good business and basic courtesy. If you call someone a thief and then it turns out you were wrong, you apologize. At a minimum.
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G Thompson (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 12:27am

Re: Re:
Yes I agree the statement of "not as cool" in HHJ Birss's judgement was not necessary nor warranted even though it was obiter.

Though it seems that statement and Apple's usage of it to be granted the Oberlandesgericht order has made them even more responsible for making this court [at 78 to 88] not only enforce the original order for publicity but to change it to reflect the current state of things.

It was originally:
On 9th July 2012 the High Court of Justice of England and Wales ruled that Samsung Electronic (UK) Limited's Galaxy Tablet Computer, namely the Galaxy Tab 10.1, Tab 8.9 and Tab 7.7 do not infringe Apple's registered design No. 0000181607-0001. A copy of the full judgment of the High court is available on the following link [link given]
It is now
On 9th July 2012 the High Court of Justice of England and Wales ruled that Samsung Electronic (UK) Limited's Galaxy Tablet Computers, namely the Galaxy Tab 10.1, Tab 8.9 and Tab 7.7 do not infringe Apple's registered design No. 0000181607-0001. A copy of the full judgment of the High court is available on the following link [link given].

That Judgement has effect throughout the European Union and was upheld by the Court of Appeal on �.. A copy of the Court of Appeal's judgment is available on the following link [�]. There is no injunction in respect of the registered design in force anywhere in Europe. [found at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2012/1339.html ]

Personally I think Apple got what they deserved, especially if you look at what they tried to do to Samsung elsewhere in regards to publicity orders etc. The court was generous actually.

Though Samsung's behaviour hasn't been any better in some respects.

awww you missed me? well As I tell my wife.. Keep working on it and your aim will surely improve ;)
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Geeb, 19 Oct 2012 @ 12:35am

Possibly related context
The UK has been debating libel laws recently, and one of the big things that has come out is that people aren't really that bothered about damages (ie cash compensation), but they do want their reputations repaired. Usually a newspaper will print "CELEBRITY MARRIES GOAT" in three-inch letters on the front page, then a week later put up an apology in 8pt on page 17. One of the proposals is that the retraction should be at least as prominent as the original, so that the readers are likely to see it and give it credence. Obviously this isn't a libel case, but I wonder if some of the same thinking is at work - if Apple shout "copycat" then a certain group of people will listen, and a direct retraction from Apple is likely to be the best way to get the "actually they're not" message to that same group.
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JamesF (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 12:40am

Re: Amused.
The message that patent lawsuits are lose lose is not a bad one though.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 1:10am

Re:
But the judgment did not take a position on whether Apple copied the iPad, because that was not the issue at court -- as the judge was careful to point out. The only question was whether Samsung infringed on the protected device as described in the patent application. As the judge pointed out, these differ from each other.

So from a legal point of view, it is still open whether Samsung copied iPad. And Samsung may well have. And that would be legal, insofar as the Ipad is not protected by the patent, or the court (by its own admission) either admitted that it was not covered, or did not even attempt to determine whether it was covered.

And it might even be a healthy and good thing for technology to progress by copying, as long as the copying is legal. Samsung could even assert this.

In this context -- that the issue of copying was not addressed by the court -- why shouldn't Apple have the right to continue to claim that it was copied?
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 1:19am

someone at apple who has some brains in the advertising department would easily be able to turn this announcement into a major and positive advertising campaign..

"at apple the best idea's just cannot be copied"
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 1:23am

Re:
Or to go further -- it might be appropriate to force Apple to make public statements, but only concerning matters that were actually determined by the court. Here are two interesting statements from the ruling that the court could order Apple to make public:

(1) According to the opinion of the court, the iPad may not be patent protected, because in the opinion of the court Apple may have built a slightly different device. In any case the court has no opinion. Therefore it may be legal to copy the iPad.

(2) In the opinion of the court, the Ipad is cooler than the copy.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 1:34am

Re: Re:
p.s. these points are substantiated in the original ruling, as pointed out above by @izzitme101 :

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2012/1339.html
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nospacesorspecialcharacters (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 1:56am

Re: Possibly related context
Exactly This.

If you'll forgive me for employing a hyperbolic technique that's usually used by the trolls here - imagine someone on trial accused of pedophilia. The victims parents take every opportunity in every interview and public speech to state that the defendant is a pedophile.

Then some crucial evidence comes out that the defendant actually did not commit the crime after all. The parents and child are still victims, but that doesn't negate the damage they've done to the reputation of the accused (who is now also a victim).

Therefore it would be fair for the judge to order them to publicly retract their earlier statements (whilst they work on finding the real perp). After all they should have waited until the trial was over before making public statements as "fact".

This has been a problem in the UK recently and it is right to make Apple accountable for their vexatious PR stabs. What I'm really interested to know now is if Samsung gets to use the new UK disclaimer in their appeal in the US trial!
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 2:14am

remember that Apple started this shit! what they have now got to do, under protest, is exactly the same as they expected Samsung to do. bit different now the shoe is on the other foot, eh? it's about time Apple had some real serious fucks stuck into them! they are so quick to sue for use of what they class as theirs, when the chances are it never was to begin with, but equally as fast to use someone else stuff and expect to do so for free, just because they are so massive a company, the financial muscle they have puts up the 'scared of litigation' barrier. nothing but an arse hole company that over charges for stuff that people are gullible enough to keep supporting!
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G Thompson (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 2:14am

Re: Re:
Because they have told the media and potential customers that they took Samsung to court for copying and that is blatantly false and misleading.

Also on the point of copying the Appeals judge (who looks at it all de novo even) talks about how Apple wanted scope creep on their design so that any further interations were also a part of the original design registration/patent. Which leads one to posit that they are talking about any copying of anything they think MIGHT occur ever. The Judge placed them on notice about this methodology
[at 54] I would add that even if I were forming my own view of the matter, I would have come to the same conclusion and for the same reasons. If the registered design has a scope as wide as Apple contends it would foreclose much of the market for tablet computers. Alterations in thickness, curvature of the sides, embellishment and so on would not escape its grasp. Legitimate competition by different designs would be stifled.[emphasis added]

Therefore even copying is ok in this context.
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G Thompson (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 2:19am

Re: Re:
The public statements they are ordered to make are ONLY concerning the matters before the court. They have not been told to do anything else, that was made clear in the recent judgement.

As for your point #2, since this court looked at everything de novo (afresh) they don't have to say one is "cooler" than the other, in fact the judges state they have no opinion on it either way, and reading between the lines, the appeals court is NOT happy with that original obiter wording from HHJ Birss either.
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Tim Griffiths (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 2:45am

Re:
If you are not sure enough about your case that you are not willing to issue an apology and redress any negative PR impact your accusation had then you shouldn't be in court.
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Lisa Westveld (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 3:04am

Well, the effect of this ruling could be that Apple is now forced to tell the World (okay, just the UK) that Samsung did NOT copy them. Such a confession might have some additional effects on similar cases world-wide and possibly even help with the case in the USA, which Apple won.
In the USA, Samsung could now present this advertisement/confession from Apple and turn that ruling around...
Of course, not just in the USA. It could happen everywhere, where Apple sued Samsung over the design. Apple is forced to confes they've been wrong. Such a confession can be very valuable, when other courts recognize it as such.
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k-h, 19 Oct 2012 @ 4:02am

Re:
Exactly, It's just more advertising for both of them.
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Ninja (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 4:54am

All Apple has done is provide free advertising for Samsung. If I were from Samsung I'd pat their juridic director and say "Good job. And thank you for all the free advertising."
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Berenerd (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 5:09am

Re:
I think they will have trouble saying what makes the phones different without pointing out what better in the samsung phone than their phone
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Michael, 19 Oct 2012 @ 5:16am

It depends on how you frame the message
Well, apparently we were wrong. We though Samsung had copied our products and were making phones and tables that could rival our iProducts.

We have been told, very clearly, that the Samsung products are inferior.

You have our sincere apology for any confusion we have caused over who makes the best phones and tables.
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Michael, 19 Oct 2012 @ 5:18am

Re: It depends on how you frame the message
Before I get attacked...

I use a Galaxy Tab, and a Galaxy S2 phone. I do have an iPod, as well.

Both companies make pretty cools stuff. I wish they would spend more money on R&D than legal though.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:08am

Lies and half-truths
Lies that go unchallenged are often accepted as truth. Apple's attempts to bully the competetion out of existance in the courts is exactly why they need to comply.
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Wayne Masters, 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:10am

Despite what some simple minded judges in the US might think, corporations are in actuality NOT human beings, do not have the "right" to free speech and can indeed be compelled to say things when necessary. The employees of Apple can disagree and can easily find many media outlets to publish those views, so there is nothing limiting the free speech rights of anyone who works for Apple. Apple itself, not being a person, has no such "right".
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:31am

Re: Re:
Sorry, but in real life, who gives a damn what products judges and lawyers think is cool ?
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:34am

Re: Re: Re:
In fact I think Apple got its bran tarnished for going legal. There's nothing more anti-sexiness in marriage than a marital contract and court quarrels of divorces.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:37am

Re: Re: Amused.
tell it to the patent trolls... they lose no sales to consumer brand tarnishment
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JC, 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:48am

Re:
Like you say, a bit of spin is all that's needed.

"OK, Samsung didn't copy our products... if they had maybe theirs would be as cool and innovative as ours are..."

BTW, I'm not a fan of Apple, just used to looking for the silver linings.
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DannyB (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:53am

Re:
Here is what some people do: File a patent lawsuit, then lose.

Here is what Apple did: File a patent lawsuit, make huge stink about it publicly, damage the reputation of a competitor, then lose.

It seems a very just remedy that Apple now should have to publicly advertise that Samsung did not copy.
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DannyB (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:56am

Re: Amused.
It's not inappropriate. While the lawsuit was pending, which Apple ultimately lost, Apple made a huge public stink about it and damaged the reputation of a competitor. That makes it very appropriate.

Otherwise, Apple could just repeat this behavior as part of marketing strategy. Sue while expecting to lose, make huge public noise quoting court documents, lose lawsuit, no harm no foul.
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DannyB (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 6:58am

Re:
Maybe Apple will get just a bet too creative with the court's order and the court will find them in contempt and impose some worse sanction, including making them repeat the entire apology campaign again but doing it right.
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kenichi tanaka, 19 Oct 2012 @ 7:00am

Finally, Apple has come up against a court system that simply won't bow to its perceived "God-granted immunity". Thankfully, the court system in the U.K. has realized that it's not beholden to the interests of Apple.

While U.K. law isn't binding on American courts, it certainly grants it a new argument in the lawsuits they are involved with against Apple and it could prove to be major hit for Apple, considering that they have a multitude of lawsuits aimed at Samsung.

Apple needs to realize that they do not have immunity from lawsuit judgments against their own company and the fact that they are also being forced to reveal potentially damaging sales data, such data that they don't even reveal to their stockholders, they are finding out that they are losing the fight.

Kudos to the U.K. court system for not bowing to Apple's side.
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Steph (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 7:27am

"The acknowledgment must come from the horse's mouth,..."

Or from the horse's ass's mouth.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 7:39am

In other news: Samsung uses Apple's own words in it's appeal in the U.S.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 7:46am

the UK is hilarious making companies apologize

i want to see what apple prints its going to be great
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tawsenior (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 8:10am

Fitting punishment
After all, when one of my kids blames his brother and then is found out to be wrong, I make him apologize. It's the humiliation factor.
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Anonymous Coward, 19 Oct 2012 @ 8:37am

Re: Re: Amused.
Shh. Wally is an Apple fan. Logic need not be applied to an Apple related story.

Not that this isn't the first time Apple's done something like this. During the Galaxy Nexus hearings to determine if it would banned from being sold, Apple went out of their way to email and fax documents to retailers effectively saying, "It's illegal! Stop selling it! Now!" Despite the fact that it wasn't and they were still in the process of determining whether there would be an import/sales ban.

It was only after several tech sites heard about this (and received documentation from various retailers) that Apple quit doing that, but only after being called out for doing that in the first place.

Apple is a company that firmly believes in "do what I say, not what I do".
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Gregg, 19 Oct 2012 @ 8:45am

in the voice of that annoying kid from the Simpsons
Ha Ha
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Gregg, 19 Oct 2012 @ 8:57am

excellent solution
I wish more Judges did this. It would make companies think twice about frivolous law suites! money is money, sure, but making a company publicly apologize and also post it on their website! priceless. They'll think twice next time they bring up a stupid law suite like this. And you don't see this level of law suites happening in any other industry except the tech industry! your ford looks a helluva lot like my toyota....hmmmm 4 wheels, steering wheel...4 seats! copy cat!
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Beta (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 9:17am

repeat after me
An acknowledgement that is compelled is not an acknowledgement, it's a recitation. The court could just as well have forced Apple to publicly admit that Samsung's products were better than Apple's, or that the iPad were just a knock-off of the Samsung tablet, or that 2+2 were 5.
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Thomas, 19 Oct 2012 @ 9:44am

This isn't going too far
This is just the kind of punishment needed to make companies think twice about frivolous lawsuits.
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Mason Wheeler (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 10:02am

Re: Re: Re:
Agreed. If they speak malicious lies against Samsung in public, causing damage to their reputation, what's wrong with forcing them to do what they can to repair the damage they've caused?
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Dave, 19 Oct 2012 @ 12:38pm

Frivolous
What the judges are REALLY saying is that they think the case is a complete waste of time and money. Hence the tongue-in-cheek judgements and instructions.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 3:30pm

Re: Re: Re:
If the iPad had a powdered wig and a gavel, judges would think it's cooler...
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Wally (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 9:02pm

Re: Re: Re:
I won't discount that Apple deserved punishment. I think the ruling and the way it was said just really inappropriate from an ethics standpoint.

Cheers :-)
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Wally (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 9:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Amused.
AC, I'm looking past your trolling and dis-information about me. DannyB, I'm not saying Apple shouldn't be punished, it's just how the verdict was carried out. A judge would have been de-benched here in the states for such insolent a verdict.

Either way both companies suffer from the verdict. Yes, Apple needed to be punished for its stupidity in the matter, but does that make it right for a judge or magistrate to act as this one did? It's quite clear it could have been handled better so it would not humiliate a major South East Asian company such as Samsung. But no, the judge said "It's a far cooler product," and thus severely risking Samsung's reputation.
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Wally (profile), 19 Oct 2012 @ 9:21pm

Re:
Nokia started at Apple.

2009, Oct 22: Nokia sues Apple over 10 patents.[6][7]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone_wars#section_1
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2012 @ 3:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wally, from previous posts I get the impression you have something to do with government. If this is true, is there any way to contact you with a problem privately concerning a situation I find myself in?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Oct 2012 @ 8:10am

Re: Re:
Exactly, Apple behaved in a manner that deserves a lot more of a legal punishment to set precedent for these kinds of bogus patent suits that are just a clear money-grab serving no other purpose than to create a false advantage of market share while injuring competition.

If they win, they get billions - if they loose, take out an ad. Does that sound like justice to you?
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spaetz, 21 Oct 2012 @ 11:15am

Great for apple
How often do you get a court ruling that forces you to announce that the law found that your competitors products are not cool while yours are. If Apple is playing this smart this could be a great opportunity for them.
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