If TekSavvy Won't Oppose Copyright Trolls Who Want Customer Info, Who Will?

from the privacy-before-piracy dept

Thu, Dec 20th 2012 7:25am — Leigh Beadon

We recently covered the latest attempt by Voltage Pictures to identify alleged Canadian filesharers in order to launch one of their infamous copyright shakedown schemes. Rather than target one of the big ISPs, they made a list of thousands of IP addresses from TekSavvy, an independent service provider, and sought a court order forcing them to identify the users behind the addresses. TekSavvy has been admirably transparent and communicative about the issue, and was clear from the start that it would not release any information without a court order. On Monday, the court granted TekSavvy's request to adjourn until January so it could notify its customers and give them a chance to oppose the motion that would reveal their identities. However, TekSavvy has also been very clear about one thing: it won't be opposing the motion itself, and it's left a lot of customers and commentators wondering why.

Nobody would expect TekSavvy to personally defend each customer against accusations of infringement, and the company's statements so far seem to hinge on that idea as the reason it's not going to oppose Voltage's request in court. On the surface that might seem reasonable, but in fact it sidesteps the real issue: TekSavvy may not be responsible for its users' defence against infringement lawsuits, but it is responsible for protecting its users' privacy—and there are plenty of serious privacy issues with Voltage's motion that need to be addressed long before we get to the point of determining the actual guilt or innocence of individual users.

This isn't hypothetical. Howard Knopf explains the key legal comparison in this case—a 2004 attempt by BMG to get information on a mere 29 users from much larger ISPs. Not only did the ISPs oppose the motion, they won, and established important precedents in doing so.

Despite Teksavvy’s openness concerning this issue, questions are still bound to arise why Teksavvy is not actually opposing this disclosure motion in 2012, as Shaw and Telus actively and successfully did in 2004, with Bell and Rogers taking a similar if less vigorous position. In this regard, it is interesting to compare Voltage’s material with the BMG et al material filed in 2004 that was rejected by the Federal Court and Federal Court of Appeal at that time as inadequate in a very comparable situation, as a result of which we now have clear and binding appellate case law.

...

The law about all of this was clearly laid out by the Federal Court of Appeal in 2005. Here is a very balanced discussion of this presented by myself and one of my worthy opponents in that case, Richard Naiberg. The key criteria for potential success in a disclosure motion such as this is that there must be substantial, admissible, non-hearsay, and reliable evidence in the form of affidavit material and at least a bona fide case.

A key intervener in that case was the Canadian Internet Policy & Public Interest Clinic, which fought hard for the privacy of the Doe defendants. CIPPIC also sent a letter to the court regarding this recent Voltage motion, requesting the adjournment that was granted Monday. That letter focused heavily on the factors established in the BMG case, and when you run through those factors, you begin to see why this is a privacy issue before it's an infringement issue. The court's disclosure test was designed to ensure that customer info isn't released without a solid reason—and perhaps the most important requirement is that there be a bona fide claim, further clarified as a true intent to pursue further action based on the disclosure, and no ulterior motive. When it comes to a shakedown operation like Voltage's, everyone knows that the exact opposite is true, and CIPPIC's letter (pdf) cites the company's past (while explaining precisely what a "copyright troll" is) to make this point:

On the question of bona fides, the plaintiff has identified literally thousands of John Does and Jane Does. BMG v. Doe involved only 29 potential defendants. It is worth asking the plaintiff if it holds a bond fide intent to bring 2000 actions for copyright infringement. As will be noted below, this plaintiff has a track record in the United States of demanding subscriber data of internet service providers for the purposes of demanding exorbitant payments to settle under threat of litigation, with no bona fide intent to prosecute such litigation. In CIPPIC’s view, this scheme does not meet the requirements of the need to show a bona fide claim, but instead is evidence of another purpose.

...

the applicant has in the past engaged in similar mass litigation in the United States. The applicant’s business model for such litigation has earned it the label of “copyright troll”. Trolls’ business model involves alleging that consumers are liable for copyright infringement, and demanding compensation under threat of litigation. The compensation demanded invariably grossly exceeds the damages a troll might expect if the troll were to actually litigate and obtain judgement and a damages award. However, such compensation does not typically exceed the cost to a defendant of defending the action. Enough defendants will choose to pay rather than defend to make the scheme profitable to the troll. The troll typically never litigates through to a judgement, since the costs of doing so would render the scheme as a whole less profitable. The troll’s business model, thus, is an arbitrage game, exploiting judicial resources to leverage defendants’ fear and the costs of defending into a revenue stream. And, of course, no part of these revenues finds its way back to the court to offset costs borne by the taxpayer as the judiciary plays its inadvertent role in this scheme. In CIPPIC’s view, such a purpose is improper and bars the applicant from establishing a bona fide claim.

Not only that, as the letter notes, Voltage's motion accuses the users of commercial infringement—a much higher bar carrying much higher potential fines. This accusation seems completely unsupported by the evidence (which amounts to little more than "these IP addresses were connected to BitTorrent swarms") and even less likely to qualify as a bona fide claim.

Since we've been seeing lots and lots and lots of US judges slamming copyright trolling operations and dumping their cases, there's clearly an opportunity here for Canadian courts to smack down this practice before it gets off the ground—or re-assert their earlier smackdown, anyway. But the only way that can happen is if someone actually opposes Voltage's request (CIPPIC's letter was just supporting a delay). TekSavvy is still insisting it won't be them; CIPPIC might seem the logical candidate, and I'm sure they'll do what they can, but it's unclear how much they will be allowed to intervene if none of the directly-involved parties put up a fight. The only other option is the customers themselves, once TekSavvy notifies them—but, of course, the whole point of this scheme in the first place is that most people can't afford to take on a complex legal battle.

So will Voltage waltz right past the clearly-established test for the disclosure of private information? If TekSavvy doesn't do anything, they just might.

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Filed Under: canada, copyright trolls, isps, privacy
Companies: teksavvy, voltage

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ChrisB (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 7:37am

Canadian privacy laws
Canada's privacy laws are pretty crazy. For example, some witnesses to a plane crash dragged some survives out of the burning plane. Later, when they wanted to reach out and make contact with the survivors, they were told that no info could be given out about the survivors because of privacy laws.

People went ballistic about Google "accidently" recording info from unsecured wifi. Now some company wants to sue people for downloading a movie they could go rent for $1.50, and all of our privacy laws go out the window?
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 7:39am

Public Image
This is rather interesting. Just recently in the slashdot article about iiNet over in Australia walking away from the copyright groups, people were wishing we had our own iiNet's all over the world. A bunch of those tech savvy users on slashdot pointed out that TekSavvy was a good one to be with for Canada. If they are looking to destroy the good image they have with the techies, this would easily do it in a single move (or failure to move as it is). And the thing is, those who were praising TekSavvy are the exact ones who would notice this if TekSavvy doesn't stand up. With the precedent already set in Canada, it can't really be that costly to fight the initial request, can it?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 7:39am

Is copyright the worst idea that we have come up with? Its main use is to enrich publishers and lawyers at the cost of everyone else.
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qP, 20 Dec 2012 @ 7:41am

Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Why are we blaming teksavvy for something the government should be insuring? (Our privacy rights). This sounds like you want your ISP to fight for your right to pirate.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 7:46am

Re: Public Image
The one skill the copyright industry seem to have acquired is that of threatening to bankrupt people by use of every legal track they can come up with, including if you oppose us we sill sue you for secondary liability.
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Teresa (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 7:58am

Meanwhile, just last month Distributel & 3web (2 other major indie ISPs here in Canada) didn't do what Teksavvy has done (ie fought to push back the order so that they could inform affected customers, and advise them to get legal counsel), and just rolled over and handed over the subscriber info.

They did NOT fight the order in any manner whatsoever, and will now be seeing settlement letters in their near future.

http://copyrightenforcement.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/NGN-Order-Montreal.pdf

I think its good on Teksavvy that they gave customers time to get their own lawyers anonymously so as to dispute being named in one of these suits.
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Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:01am

Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
"This sounds like you want your ISP to fight for your right to pirate."

No, we want our ISP to fight for our right to privacy since our governments won't.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:04am

until there is clear laws written that forbid this type of extortion and then clear laws that sort out the whole mess and screw up that governments, particularly the US, have made of copyright and infringement, this will continue. as for Teksavvy, they deserve to lose so many customers now (not just those that will be ob the receiving end of a Voltage Pictures letter) that they have to close!
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:09am

Re:
as for Teksavvy, they deserve to lose so many customers now

I wouldn't go quite that far... As a commenter above notes, they have done more than some others in their shoes. And we don't know what legal advice they've been given.

I do think they have reason, opportunity and at least some responsibility to fight this -- and I question whether they've gone far enough. But they deserve credit for being very open about the whole thing.

Now, what I do believe is the counterpoint to yours: if they do take this opportunity to stand up against copyright trolls and defend their users from a shakedown operation, they deserve to gain so many customers that they become one of the biggest ISPs in the country.
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Josef Anvil (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:14am

Infringing???
"Now some company wants to sue people for downloading a movie they could go rent for $1.50, and all of our privacy laws go out the window?"

This brings up an odd situation that happens quite frequently. If I have a Netflix or LoveFilm account and I "pirate" a copy of a film that is available on those services, am I infringing?

I've already paid for the service, so in theory, the content creators have been compensated. But one day I was too lazy to look through Netflix and just downloaded the movie. Why should I be targeted by a troll if I've already paid?
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AC (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:21am

Check your facts, please...
From someone who was actually present at the court hearing this past Monday:

After explaining to the court at Monday�s hearing how TSI has been acting in good faith by cooperating as best it can with Voltage, their counsel � Nicholas McHaffie of Stikeman Elliott - surprised the room by stating they could not continue to take their original position as a neutral party and let the motion go unopposed.

... and the judge ended up granting an adjournment.

Source:

http://www.davidellis.ca/watching-voltage-and-teksavvy-duke-it-out-in-fed eral-court/
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Robert (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:23am

Re: Infringing???
How else do you get to view the content while skipping the unskipable anti-piracy BS and advertisements?

If you paid for it, you should not be lectured or forced to watch ads. Simple as that!
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dave blevins (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:27am

Copyright the worst idea?
Well, the whole concept of royality for entertainers is right up there too -- only enriches the publishers not the entertainers themselves -- the idea of being paid multiple times for each performance is outlandish: a doctor should get paid for his "performance" of birthing a person every person's birthday?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:38am

Another way is to target troll lawyers directly. I don't mean "target" as in "targeted killing," but there are plenty of ways to embarrass and harass them: they are people made of flesh and blood, have families and neighbors and hence vulnerable to emotional damage.

Enough is enough. You guys, fightcopyrighttrolls and others are preoccupied by "not stooping on their level" while these shitheads continue raping students and seniors. I'm not as picky as you and want trolls to test their own medicine, to inconvenience their lives as much as I can. My immediate target is "my" troll Lipscum and a sweet pair from Malibu (who celebrate their wedding anniversary tomorrow).
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Another AC, 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:39am

Re: Check your facts, please...
Close, you needed to keep reading the next 3 paragraphs:

McHaffie made it very clear the only grounds for opposing the motion was trying to ensure potential defendants got adequate time to be notified.

SO they only opposed it to let their customers have more time, not on privacy or any other grounds. So I believe Leigh's original analysis is accurate.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:40am

Re: Check your facts, please...
No, I know that -- there is just a lack of clarity (on both my part and that article, admittedly) about what "unopposed" means.

They opposed the motion in terms of requesting an adjournment, but that's all. They won't be actually opposing handing over the info -- they just wanted time to inform their customers so the customers could individually oppose it if they wanted. As your link notes a few lines later:

"McHaffie made it very clear the only grounds for opposing the motion was trying to ensure potential defendants got adequate time to be notified."
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:43am

Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
Uh, let's see. They clog the lines and use much more than the average bandwidth. If you ask them to pay more, they start waving around half-baked legal philosophy and theories about "artificial scarcity" or "censorship". They parse the contracts and jump on any mention of the word "unlimited" and turn it into some right to endless bandwidth for themselves and their children and grandchildren. Sometimes they attract the attention of pot smoking law professors who have extra time on their hands thanks to the ABA cartel and these law professors proceed to write endless briefs full of arcane footnotes that egg on the anonymous file sharing leeches.

Why would anyone want a file sharer as a customer? Why would anyone want a customer devoted to a philosophy of not pulling their own weight and freeloading off of other people?
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:45am

Re: Infringing???
I don't know about copyright infringement, but you're certainly violating the terms of service.
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:46am

Re: Re: Infringing???
Well, you could also buy the dvd and rip it.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:47am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
if your business is selling bandwidth, and a person who uses lots of bandwidth is a bad customer, then you are doing something seriously wrong
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:52am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
They parse the contracts and jump on any mention of the word "unlimited" and turn it into some right to endless bandwidth for themselves and their children and grandchildren.

If by "parse" you mean "take the overt and obvious claim seriously," then you're right. Why would you think it's wrong to object to not getting what you were promised when you bought it?

Why would anyone want a file sharer as a customer? Why would anyone want a customer devoted to a philosophy of not pulling their own weight and freeloading off of other people?

And yet again, you are ignoring the fact that filesharers are not necessarily pirates, and that not only filesharers are affected by this stuff anyway.

You seem to think that the only real opposition to the abuse of copyright law is from pirates. Most pirates, pretty much by definition, don't care about the abuse of copyright law.
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Trails (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:52am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_trSIBCgF0
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Berenerd (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:53am

Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
"This sounds like you want your ISP to fight for your right to pirate."

Actually we want the ISP to hold to their privacy policies that they showed us when we signed up for our service. Not to roll over and die because someone claims they have proof but can't show us right now...so Trust them.
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Baldaur Regis (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 8:54am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
Do you pay Techdirt anything for the use of this website to post your ramblings? No? You must be a freetard. Do you pay any commentors on this site for sharing their thoughts and being able to respond? No? You must be a pirate.
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Teresa (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:05am

Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Nowhere in the privacy policy does it say they have to fight a potential court order on behalf of their customers. Privacy policy does essentially say that if there is a court order, they have to follow it.

I don't get why people seem to think Teksavvy should they pick up the bill to defend their customers from the suit?
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:18am

Re: Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
It's not about defending their customers in a copyright infringement lawsuit, it's about opposing a motion to reveal customer info from someone who doesn't have a legally-required bona fide claim against those people.

It's about TekSavvy standing up and saying "we know how you operate, and that you just want to launch a shakedown operation and intimidate a bunch of our customers with threat letters, and we're not going to let you do that"

I agree they don't have to, but they could (as other ISPs have in the past) and I think there's plenty of reason to argue that they should
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Berenerd (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:19am

Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
He also fails to think that some of these people might not actually be sharing files, their wireless may be compromised and such. But most of these people will settle because it costs too much to fight and thats what these tolls are hoping for. he doesn't bother to bring that up either.
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Rikuo (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:20am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
Bob *sells bandwidth to customer

Customer *uses lots of bandwidth, keeping an eye on the word unlimited in his CONTRACT*

Bob "HEY! You're using a lot of bandwidth! Stop that, you greedy bastard! You're not allowed do that!

Customer "Wtf?"
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Ressy (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Marc's been responding this morning regarding reasoning.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r27824891-Why-we-are-not-opposing-motion-on-Monday.~st art=440
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Hmm... yeah that thread has been going on for a while, but I still think the central point isn't coming up.

Marc is saying that he doesn't think there are any grounds on which to oppose the motion -- he even cites the test from the BMG case that I discuss above. But as the CIPPIC letter and other commenters assert, there is serious question as to whether this passes the bona fide criteria. CIPPIC also brings up the hearsay issue, which was central to BMG -- though I'm less clear on the legal details there.

I'm not sure why TS is taking it as granted that neither of those things applies here...
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:48am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
Now that smoking pot is actually legal in at least two states (for now) I take offense at the remark about "pot smoking professors" why not drunken professors or right wing liberal professors. No, have to be "pot smokers" right? Of all the nerve!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 9:51am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
...because Voltage have a pretty long history of acting like trolls in this area.
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Milton Freewater, 20 Dec 2012 @ 10:27am

Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
"They parse the contracts and jump on any mention of the word "unlimited" and turn it into some right to endless bandwidth for themselves."

The use of the word unlimited in a contract does mean endless bandwidth according to the service provider.

Again, someone intends to attack file-sharing and ends up attacking the idea of expecting a contract to be honored.

Less people would file-share if trolls and shills could somehow, someway figure out away to argue against file-sharing without also arguing against the most basic of consumer rights. Bob, you're encouraging piracy of the worst kind. Content creators beg you to stop.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 10:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Maybe what the court should do, if they grant the motion demanding the data be turned over to Voltage, is to also compel Voltage to place an amount equivalent to, say, one thousand court filing fees in an escrow account to demonstrate Voltage's bona fide intent to litigate.
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paul, 20 Dec 2012 @ 10:40am

ISP Custodian of Private Info
I'll be watching the Voltage / Teksavvy case closely and postponing a planned ISP switch to Teksavvy to see how much responsibility they assume for clients private info.
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 10:44am

Re: Re: Public Image
Good signs that the laws need to be massively revamped. Actions like extortion and mafiaa style threats should not be tolerated.
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 10:59am

Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
I would agree with you if these ISPs were indeed selling bandwidth by the megabyte but they're not. They sell so-called unlimited plans designed to take care of the average customer. Now I realize that the file sharing customers are perfectly within their rights to expect that "unlimited" means exactly that, but they shouldn't be surprised when the business doesn't see the high demand, high maintenance customer as an asset.
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Ressy (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 10:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Some US judges have ordered that, due to the company suing being a foreign company...
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:00am

Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
Actually, TechDirt should be paying me for injecting something novel to what's usually an echo chamber full of people dreaming of getting something for nothing. When people respond to my posts, I create page views. I'm an asset.
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:01am

Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
And so what if they're downloading something from the public domain, they still use more than the average amount of bandwidth and then they complain when anyone talks of metering them.
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:03am

Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
I said nothing about whether the pot smoking was against the law, but anyone who knows any pot smoker knows that the habit doesn't increase the faith of the clients. Most of the pot heads I know have moderate to severe memory problems.
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quawonk, 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:04am

If TekSavvy want to become heroes, and be seen as serious about privacy, they should encourage their customers to use third-party proxy and VPN services. Third party because if it was owned by TekSavvy, they could still be made to log and cough up the info.
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:06am

Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
No, I understand perfectly well that the customer can expect the contract to be honored. I hate with ISPs claim something is "unlimited". I'm just pointing out that the ISPs have no reason to like these consumers of hefty bandwidth and they're happy to do anything to scare them off.

The average ISP owner I know says that they're forced to offer "unlimited" because that's what the customer expects. So they try other passive aggressive techniques to limit hefty consumption. Bandwidth is too expensive to offer truly unlimited service.
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Killer_Tofu (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:06am

Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
It is legal in quite a few others for medical purposes. Michigan is one of those which allows legal medical licenses to purchase or even grow small amounts.
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:08am

Re: Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Exactly. But you're talking the echo chamber full of people who think they're owed everything for free. Of course they think that everyone out there is just chomping at the bit to defend their file sharing fun.

Frankly I think that the ISPs have every incentive to undermine these heavy consumers that just push up their bandwidth costs and expose them to law enforcement pressure.
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bob, 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:11am

Re: Re:
Why do they have "reason" and "responsibility"? These are the worst customer who put the most demand on their network and impose all of these unreimbursed legal costs for dealing with the warrants and subpoenas. What reason do you imagine would compel them to defend the file sharing leeches and thus attract more of them to add even more stress and cost to their network?

And as others have said, they never promised to defend the customers and it's not clear they even could do so. They don't monitor the traffic and they're not responsible for what their customers choose to do with the connection. Why would they put their head in the guillotine?
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:29am

Re: Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
I would agree with you if these ISPs were indeed selling bandwidth by the megabyte but they're not.

TekSavvy offers three plans with different bandwidth levels -- only the most expensive is Unlimited. Don't make stuff up, bob.

Again, if you don't see the people with the highest demand for your product as good customers, then there is something wrong with your business. To assert otherwise is idiotic (and I am fairly sure TekSavvy would NOT take your stance that they don't care about high-bandwidth customers)
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 11:38am

Re: Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
Yes, and so what? Why do you think using more than the average amount of bandwidth, or disliking metering, is some terrible thing?

BTW, those two things aren't linked. I detest metering, but don't use more than the average amount of bandwidth.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 12:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Since when did heavy bandwidth consumption become equal to piracy? Heavy bandwidth use does not equal bittorrent use, and that in turn does not equal piracy.
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athe, 20 Dec 2012 @ 2:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
If they are going to have such a problem with their "unlimited" customers using it as "unlimited", then don't provide "unlimited" services. Plain and simple.

I'm on an "unlimited" plan myself, and would definitely have quite high usage. Downloading games on Steam and Xbox, watching Movies and TV on Apple TV - these both are high bandwidth applications (unless it's not available, I only purchase movies and TV in HD and stream, I don't run an iTunes server).

There are plenty of perfectly legal uses for an "unlimited" plan. If my provider turned around tomorrow and told me that when they sold it to me as "unlimited", they didn't really mean it, can I please stop downloading so much, I'd be considerably displeased...
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Dec 2012 @ 5:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
Chances are they had that to begin with. Just because you buy into the hooey the government feeds you doesn't mean it's true.
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ebilrawkscientist (profile), 20 Dec 2012 @ 6:37pm

I love the smell of buring trolls in the morning.
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Lima echo alpha victor echo - Charlie alpha november alpha delta alpha - November alpha oscar.
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The only good troll is a fireballed voltage-troll!
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2012 @ 12:32am

Re: Re: Re: Face it-- file sharers are bad customers
An asset? Well, I suppose you got the first three letters right, and not much else.
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btrussell (profile), 21 Dec 2012 @ 6:21pm

Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
I thought it sounded like they wanted the ISPs' to protect their own business model, which in turn could lure many new customers.
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btrussell (profile), 21 Dec 2012 @ 6:32pm

Re: Re: Re:
"These are the worst customer who put the most demand on their network and impose all of these unreimbursed legal costs for dealing with the warrants and subpoenas."

You assume people are guilty?
What about the extra load from monitoring a $0.99 rental?

People like you make me want to start my own "pending" list.
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David Collier-Brown (profile), 29 Dec 2012 @ 11:20am

How many ISPs silently rolled over?
If Voltage had 2000 IP addrersses from a small Chatham-based ISP, how many did they have from Bell and Rogers?

I don't see anyone getting a notice letter from Rogers for using bittorrent.

--dave
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Laroquod (profile), 3 Jan 2013 @ 10:13am

These people aren't even guilty
For the record, I am among those accused and I am totally innocent. I have not downloaded any of the films on Voltage's list nor would -- they all sound perfectly awful or I had already heard they were awful. Nobody else I know who visits would have any visits in those movies either. Nobody torrented any of those movies in this house -- it just simply never happened.

And now I may have to try to prove this in court, because there are roving extortionists in the world and TekSavvy refuses to stand up to them?? Excuse me THIS BLOWS and this'll be the absolute end for me and TekSavvy if they do not eventually step up here and do the right thing for their customers.
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John, 3 Jan 2013 @ 11:33am

Re: These people aren't even guilty
I'm in the same boat as you Laroquod. I've never heard of or seen any of these movies made by Voltage, in fact I don't even watch movies in general, I have no interest in them really. Nobody in my household knows how to torrent except for me, and I simply did NOT download any of these Voltage films, so I'm absolutely confused about the whole situation
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Laroquod (profile), 3 Jan 2013 @ 12:00pm

Re: These people aren't even guilty
Turns out that I am not on the list of those accused. TekSavvy sent out a rather blanket information email about the lawsuit which I misinterpreted as an inclusion of my user account in the danger zone. I complained and their customer service notifying me that I am not on the list was fairly prompt -- however, the fact that I don't feel personally in jeopardy any longer does not change at all my concern over how TekSavvy is handling this because I am still their customer (for now) and as a personal with a dynamically rotating IP address that *frequently* dynamically rotates (sometimes every 10 minutes!), I could still end up innocently on the wrong list and therefore this is still highly relevant to my interests and the interests of all TekSavvy users.
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Laroquod (profile), 3 Jan 2013 @ 12:03pm

Re: Re: These people aren't even guilty
John, check the email from TekSavvy again. I found it rather confusing; I thought it was telling me I was on the list. On closer reading, it turns out that it was telling me that I *may* be on the list and that I was supposed to log into the TekSavvy site under 'My World' in order to find out whether I am actually on the list. When I did that, turns out I was in the clear. I should have read more carefully, but maybe TekSavvy's communication policy in this regard wasn't the best way to go about it.

I hope you are not on the list either but even if you are, you still are probably innocent and don't deserve to be exposed, IMO.
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John, 3 Jan 2013 @ 12:54pm

Re: Re: These people aren't even guilty
Laroquod, I logged into MyWorld, how do I know if I'm on the list? There no information regarding that, does that mean I'm in the clear? If so I must have read the email incorrectly as well :S
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John, 3 Jan 2013 @ 1:21pm

Re: Re: Re: These people aren't even guilty
Alright, so I re-read the email, and I guess I made the same assumption you did, thinking I was on the list. Logging into MyWorld confirms that I am in fact not on the list, as there doesn't seem to be any notification or information there regarding this issue, as should be :)

Thanks for clearing that up Laroquod!
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Laroquod (profile), 4 Jan 2013 @ 7:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: These people aren't even guilty
Yeah basically if you have no notification within MyWorld then you are not on the list, is my understanding. I was talked through this over the phone with a TekSavvy Service Representative, and that is what he said so I am relying on that phone-based authority, for what it's worth.
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ChukuMuku, 4 Jan 2013 @ 9:36pm

Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Very simple.
Because ISP is the one who gives you the possibility to surf the internet.Teksavvy taking our money and only they should give the answers.If they don't like it,they should filter all forbidden content to their users.If Teksavvy giving me the permission to enter the web so they are the one responsible for the results.I didn't kill anyone in the web ,I just use the available web content in front of me.If you don't like it disable it .As simple as it is.
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ChukuMuku, 4 Jan 2013 @ 9:36pm

Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Very simple.
Because ISP is the one who gives you the possibility to surf the internet.Teksavvy taking our money and only they should give the answers.If they don't like it,they should filter all forbidden content to their users.If Teksavvy giving me the permission to enter the web so they are the one responsible for the results.I didn't kill anyone in the web ,I just use the available web content in front of me.If you don't like it disable it .As simple as it is.
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btrussell (profile), 5 Jan 2013 @ 3:07am

Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Yes and we should sue the government every time there is a car accident as they are the ones handing out licenses and allowing you to drive.
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David Collier-Brown (profile), 5 Jan 2013 @ 3:08pm

Re: Re: Why is it up to teksavvy to protect us?
Oh dear, do you really want Tek Savvy to be responsible for everything you do on-line?
Imagine if Bell Telephone was responsible for everything you did vial the telephone? They'd have to monitor every call, and cut off anything that sounded like it might break the law. If they didn't, they'd be an accessory to the crime.

If you wanted to discuss a peaceful protest against, for example, gang rape in India, you would have to convince the Bell censor that you wouldn't be likely to do anything illegal in a fit of emotion. If you couldn't, the censor would have to cut you off and report you to the police as possibly proposing to break a law.

--dave
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James Plotkin (profile), 6 Jan 2013 @ 11:14am

I'm happy to see CIPPIC involved on this file. This really is right up their alley as copyright and privacy law are their two largest focuses.

In the interest of full disclosure I worked as an intern at CIPPIC for two semesters in 2010-2011. It was an amazing experience.

Keep it up David and Tamir!
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Phil Osopher, 12 Jan 2013 @ 11:59am

File Share users are not thiefs
Take a few simple facts to start

1) Nothing has actually been stolen
Example if you went to a hardware store measured and analyzed a tool right down to the metal content then using your own resources you made an exact copy for your own personal use (not for sale) is that stealing.

There is not a single hardware company that could get a judge to do more then laugh if they tried to sue the person for even the cost of the tool let alone charging several thousand time more for it.

2) Instead of these movie companies changing the way they sell their product to protect their right to make a profit they go after people maliciously. But they still spend millions on movies knowing full well people will share it because they dont want the hassle of an oversized CD/DVD taking up precious room in their house.

How much room would several thousand movies in DVD format take up and how long before they get scratched and are useless.

The movie companies have choosen to stick with outdated technology and sales tactics. But it doenst mean we should be stuck with their stupidity.
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