Yes, The NSA Surveillance Story Shows Why Wikileaks And Similar Sites Are Necessary

from the leakers-are-needed dept

Tue, Jun 11th 2013 3:54am — Mike Masnick

With all the attention on NSA surveillance, the Bradley Manning trial has faded a bit into the background (and it already wasn't getting nearly the coverage it deserved). And yet, this should be a reminder of why sites like Wikileaks are so important. The big revelations over the past week on NSA surveillance both came from internal leaks. And, given the Obama administration's laser-like focus on punishing anyone who leaks anything marginally embarrassing, it's not difficult to see just how hard the administration is likely to come down on whistleblower Ed Snowden for leaking this information. And yet, this information is important for the world -- and especially Americans -- to understand how the government appears to be twisting the law over and over again to expand their ability to spy on everyone.

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Filed Under: edward snowden, leaks, nsa, nsa surveillance, whistleblowing, wikileaks

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horse with no name, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:10am

thyere ya go
You got NSA Surveilance into a title again. Keyword stuff much?
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:12am

firehose of Information
that US gov agency sucking up the entire world's communications, how much does it cost to build the required storage, how much money is diverted from urgent infrastructure work, surely the US economy would be better of if the money was spent on roads, bridges, railways, flood control, ports, enviromental cleanups, parks, rivers, space-program. currently as it stands big companies make money by selling services to deal with the info flood, Good Honest people are sent to jail when they reveal acts of the government against the citizens of the country
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out_of_the_shoe, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:14am

Re: thyere ya go
You mentioned his keyword! You're in league with Pirate Mike and his Google overlords!
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:28am

Re: thyere ya go
Wow, you've been reduced to uselessness in record time. I hope AJ isn't jealous.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:31am

Re: thyere ya go
Better get used to it or find a new place to troll, much more to come...

"We are going to have a lot more significant revelations that have not yet been heard over the next several weeks and months," said Glenn Greenwald of The Guardian."

http://news.yahoo.com/journalist-us-surveillance-case-more-come-050921834.html
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:34am

Re: thyere ya go
Mike is just trying to make a lot of noise over this minor, unimportant incident.

It's perfectly normal in a Democracy for a branch of the government to trample the constitution and spy on it's citizens.

Mike, just bring back the usual chatter about Copyright so that we can have pointless discussions on morality while the USA crumbles into the dark ages.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:42am

I certainly hope that there in the USA people are making a lot of noise over this issue.

In my country, the news coverage about this incident was something along the lines of "Some whistle-blower leaked some papers about the NSA spying on Americans. Now, back to Soccer news.". Two minutes stuffed between Nelson Mandela almost dying and sports news.

The most in-depth news coverage I've seen came from BBC World News.

Anyway, back on point: I certainly hope that, for the sake of your freedoms, you Americans don't let them brush this under the rug. Heads need to roll. You need to make it abundantly clear that you will not tolerate this kind of behaviour from your government.

Or else, you might as well start practising your "Heil Obama" (or Heil whoever comes next...you get the point).
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The_NSA_Already_Knows_My_Name_Just_Ask_Them, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:44am

Informed Consent
By design, the US people and government get to refine and interprate laws. The consent of the justly governed required in this nation's constitution, in modern day, means the Informed Consent of the justly governed, the same interpratation we apply to all other consent forms.

Without accurate information, we are denied our designed role in this nation's governance.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:46am

Has Wikileaks mentioned what's the technologies they are using? They would be pretty useful for all the media now.

New Yorker showed DeadDrop/Strongbox but so far that system is unproven. At least Wikileaks has been proven, since US had to find out from very different sources that it was Manning.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:48am

it's funny you should say that considering how much (or little) Wikileaks had to do with any of this.

Makes them look kind of pointless really, right !!!

instead this person when to someone or something THAT MATTER, the print media.

and especially Americans -- to understand how the government appears to be twisting the law over and over again to expand their ability to spy on everyone.

except the majority of Americans agree that what the NSA is doing is both necessary and appropriate..

Snowden, he's simply another traitor, just like Manning, what is worse is neither of them are very bright. Snowden has been (correctly) portrayed as a "low level computer tech who clearly does not understand the appropriate checks and balances, nor the Constitutional correctness of the information he released (or fabricated).
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LivingInNavarre (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:49am

Re: firehose of Information
Yes, I agree with that but lets first take care of the vets that are fighting, being wounded or dieing so we can be free.
We ask young men and women to risk their lives to fight wars with no cause. Then we take their school benefits away, deny them proper health care, punish them if they have christian or conservative views.
It's sickening to see money wasted on overbroad spying programs or welfare for people who do not benefit this country.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:53am

Re:
Darryl, don't worry, Blue will be here soon to take over the "most delusional" spot for you.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:55am

Re:
"when to someone"? Do you use one of those speech-to-text programs and bang on the punctuation mark keys on your keyboard for fun, darryl?

Funny how keen you are for governments to spy on people and anyone who disapproves is a traitor. Or does shutting down hundreds of thousands of websites in Australia give you a hard-on down under, you turdtwat?
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:56am

Re:
"except the majority of Americans agree that what the NSA is doing is both necessary and appropriate.."

56% in a random poll is not "a majority".

It's a coin toss.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:56am

Re: thyere ya go
Perhaps you find discussions of this topic uncomfortable ... care to explain why?

Could it be the hypocrisy of parading so called Benghazi whistle-blowers in front of a sympathetic audience asking for consequences for the perceived persecution as opposed to the desire for revenge in this particular case ?
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Niall (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:57am

Re: Re: thyere ya go
Yes, you'd love it have people 'obsessing' over actually unimportant stuff like copyright instead of important stuff like government-sponsored abuse of power. Oh wait, that's copyright as well.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:59am

Re: Re: firehose of Information
"punish them if they have christian or conservative views"

Huh?
How so.
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Niall (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 4:59am

Forward planning
No-one has commented on the steps that Snowden had to take to protect himself, having obviously learned from Assange and Manning.

Whether or not you agree with what he did, this man has cojones...
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:00am

Re: thyere ya go
I think I know what your angle is. Your angle is nothing. Or rather, your angle is to be completely at odds with whatever Mike reports on.
Abuses of the law in the name of copyright? You harp on about Mike even reporting that.
Lawyers shaking down thousands of people using shoddy evidence in an extortion racket? You harp on about Mike even reporting that.
US government is revealed to be conducting massive surveillance on AT LEAST 121 million of its citizens? You harp on about Mike even reporting on that.
President Obama goes on a shooting spree and kills hundreds (fantastical I know, but bare with me)? You would without a doubt harp on about Mike even talking about it.

You're not criticizing anything being reported. You're criticizing the fact it is being reported at all. What pray tell is a valid article then? What should Mike talk about? Please oh please tell us at Techdirt what we should be talking about? Do we have your blessing to talk about abuses of the law?
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:03am

Re:
Terrible grammar and sentence structure aside lets think through what you saying.

1) Print media vs Wikileaks
Is it not possible that leakers might have different needs and may not have connections in a well established media outlet (not just print) such as the guardian. The aim is to inform the public.

2) "the majority of Americans agree"
What a load of tosh. There's been a small survey done on a limited sample and even that was close. Then there's the fact that no member of the public knows what the NSA are actually doing so they can't agree with it.

3)Snowden is a "low level computer tech who clearly does not understand the appropriate checks and balances"

I think you're wrong but lets examine this. If he doesn't understand the system and he's been given the privileges he claims, then the NSA is either failing to train it's staff and/or is not performing the required oversight. Either way that is not an organisation I want having my data.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:04am

Re:
Apparently the department of Damage Control and Public Opinion is experiencing the affects of sequestration.
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:04am

Re:
Same here. There was a short article in one of Ireland's national papers about the whistle-blower's name being revealed, but nothing else. Meanwhile, over the past few days, the most memorable front page story I can remember is the fact that Michael Jackson's daughter attempted suicide. While that is bad in and of itself...one would think that the most powerful country in the world, one lauded as a bastion of freedom and liberty instead being revealed as spying on its citizens would be far more interesting and newsworthy. Nope, instead we get blurbs on the front about a politician wanting the tax-payer to fund his wife's trips abroad.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:04am

Re: Re:
Stupid polls mean nothing. Here's a poll that says very much the opposite...

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/june_2013/59 _oppose_government_s_secret_collecting_of_phone_records
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:08am

Re:
"it's funny you should say that considering how much (or little) Wikileaks had to do with any of this."

Wikileaks and SIMILAR SITES. Not just Wikileaks, but other sites focusing on leaked material. God, you guys have admitted to not bothering to read articles, are you now not bothering to even read the HEADLINES?
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Pragmatic, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:11am

Re: Re: Re: firehose of Information
What is it about TD that attracts right-wing fanatic trolls? We have White Supremacists in every other day. Weird.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:12am

Re: Informed Consent
Mr NSA do you know my name ???

NSA " I don't know, what is your name ?"

Fred Smith.

NSA "then Yes, hello Fred"
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out_of_the_blue, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:14am

Re: Re: firehose of Information
@ "LivingInNavarre": "...first take care of the vets that are fighting, being wounded or dieing so we can be free." -- THE VETS ARE NOT MAKING US FREE, THEY'RE JUST SLAUGHTERING INNOCENTS FOR THE EMPIRE.

You're spouting the jingoistic crap of those who fall for the worst and simplest lies, that the US in under "existential threat" and must wage war on -- someone, doesn't really matter -- a vague "al Qaeda" that's everywhere and nowhere, easily expanded to "dictators" as in Libya and now Syria, but in reality it's peoples with brown skins who have oil. The whole Iraq war was knowingly based on fabrications of "WMD" and the sheer lie that the US was going to "liberate" Iraqis from an evil dictator.

Well, HERE'S some of the results of you believing those LIES and unleashing the dogs of war, first an only too typical item that shows how Iraq is FAR worse than ever:
Another Bloody Monday in Iraq: 94 Killed, 289 Wounded
http://original.antiwar.com/updates/2013/06/10/another-bloody-monday-in-iraq-94-killed-289- wounded/

And next, you'd better have a strong stomach for:
What's delaying the WHO report on Iraqi birth defects?
http://uruknet.com/?p=m98206&hd=&size=1&l=e
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:16am

Re: Re:
Then there's the fact that no member of the public knows what the NSA are actually doing so they can't agree with it.

that would equally apply to someone disagreeing with it !!!
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:18am

Re: Forward planning
Helps to have been part of the game I guess.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:19am

Re: Forward planning
That's why he went to Hong Kong, a place with very strong extradition agreements with the US. Yes, you really want Assange and Manning as your teachers !!!!
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:25am

Re: Re:
over 50% is a majority, by definition.

last I checked 56 is higher than 50..
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:25am

Re: Re: Re:
A person can disagree with large scale spying on principle, without having to know the details.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:32am

Mikey supports those who commit treason and felony violations of the Espionage Act.

Shocker!

Is there no criminal piece of shit that Mikey doesn't idolize?

No wonder he's too chicken shit to have a direct and honest discussion about ANYTHING.
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:32am

Re: Re: Forward planning
Uhh...
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1257639/treaty-gives-hong-kong-option-reject-snow den-extradition-us

So...US citizen heavily embarrasses the US government, shows how evil it is, flees to Hong Kong. If I were the Chinese government, I'd give him a fucking palace and a harem as a reward. I simply cannot conceive of the Chinese granting extradition in this case. They would have no reason to, and every reason not to. By keeping Snowden in Hong Kong, they can keep pointing to him and say "Look here, he's living proof that the US government is just as bad as they say we are".
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:34am

Re: Re:
"despite the fact that WikiLeaks hasn�t been accused of a crime. And viable alternatives have not yet emerged (a splinter group headed by a former WikiLeaks lieutenant tried to set up a competitor called OpenLeaks without much success, and the New Yorker recently launched its own effort called StrongBox)."

but NO "sites" were used, this guy went to the PRINT MEDIA to get 'his' word out.

Wikeleaks, is talked about a lot because they released lots of information,

THE INFORMATION DID NOT PROMOTE DEBATE, and has been shown to be mostly useless at best, aiding the enemy at worst.

Quote from 'Mark' on Gigaom

"Whatever good it COULD have done was swiftly and thoroughly invalidated by Assange�s bad behavior. What bad thing was exposed from this huge dump of secret stuff stolen by Manning. War sucks? Soldiers are mean to the enemy? Bad people do bad things, and think their uniform justifies it? One ambassador called another ambassador names in a secret cable? Is anything different because of the loss of 300K documents?
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:34am

Re:
Shut the fuck up AJ. Not everything is about you and your one man war on Emperor Palpati...I mean Mike Masnick.
What you call treason is anything but. It is treason for the US intelligence community to spy on its own citizens in such a way as this, and then for their head to lie to Congress about it. That is treason.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:36am

Re: Re: Re:
Here's a poll [Rasmussen Reports] that says very much the opposite...

�Which Polls Fared Best (and Worst) in the 2012 Presidential Race�, by Nate Silver, New York Times: FiveThirtyEight, November 2012

For the second consecutive election � the same was true in 2010 � Rasmussen Reports polls had a statistical bias toward Republicans, overestimating Mr. Romney�s performance by about four percentage points, on average.

�
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:36am

Re: Re: Re:
Did not promote debate? Wha...?
Whether or not one believes Manning did the right thing or not in releasing those cables, to then say there was no debate?

OF COURSE THERE WAS DEBATE! That's why whenever you get a group of US citizens in a room and just mention Manning's name, some of them will support him, some of them won't and there will be a DISCUSSION over it!
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
And of course, again, the thing you link (or rather quote with no link, so I can't check. Who the fuck is Mark?) to in support of your stance (no debate) is in fact...a debate in and of itself. Just like the numerous other times you try and discredit Mike Masnick and link to things that in fact prove him right and you wrong.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:45am

Re: Re: Re: Forward planning
that's true, it's equally true that generally china and Hong Kong will not exercise that, and will happy give up this traitor and leave it up to Americans to deal with him.

Time will tell, but it does not look good for him, that is probably why he's gone back into hiding.

Hong Kong will not take up that option. Simple as that.
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The Real Michael, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:47am

Re: Re:
The American mainstream media's job isn't to keep us informed and up-to-date about important news and pressing issues. Its job is to keep us distracted.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:47am

Re: Re: Re:
Basically what the other AC said.

How can you possibly believe that what they're doing is justified and acceptable if you don't know what it is that you're saying is justified?

On the other hand even with the limited knowledge I have I can form the opinion that it's already too much snooping for too little benefit.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
The point is polls mean shit. Polls are always biased in favor of the people asking the questions and who their audience is.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Forward planning
I'd take it as a kindness if you stopped referring to one of Americas greatest citizens as a traitor.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:58am

Re: Re: Re:
last I checked 56 is higher than 50..

Claimed margin of error for the Pew Research Poll is 3.7% at 95% confidence.
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FarSide (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:58am

Re: Re: Re:
It does apply equally.

But some of us like to use our brains and make a general opinion using decades of govt activities and stories as a basis.

From this we can determine:

a) the govt always finds fun and interesting ways to interpret laws to gain more power

b) sometimes just takes more power and then later changes laws and forgives itself

c) plenty of people don't want to think for themselves and so will just wait for whatever the govt tells them is going on, with no sense of irony that they were lying to our faces 12 seconds ago but NOW they are telling the truth. For real this time! Guys, seriously! They swear they aren't crossing their fingers or ANYthing!
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 6:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The point is polls mean shit.

Which is why Karl Rove had a meltdown.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 6:13am

Re:
When "Bawk bawk bawk" is your definition of a direct and honest discussion don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

No wonder you're too chickenshit to have a direct and honest discussion about John Steele. Is there no criminal piece of shit that average_joe doesn't idolise?
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FarSide (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 6:15am

Re:
This is a comment backed by incorrect assumptions.

Glen Greenwald is NOT typical print media. He cut a deal with Salon years ago, which he also cut with the Guardian, to have full editorial control over his columns.

He is able to post directly without an editor. He also gets most of his income not from the paper, but from those readers who choose to support him.

Additionally, Greenwald is one of the leading journalists covering and Assange, Manning, Wikileaks, and anything else related to govt encroachment on liberties.

Whats more, he is EXCEEDINGLY critical of most journalists for playing political games at the expense of getting the truth and exposing corruption.

So to say this was standard print media and unlike wikileaks or that type of website is absurd.
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TaCktiX, 11 Jun 2013 @ 6:22am

Re: Re: Re: firehose of Information
Some required reading for the former:
http://gazette.com/pentagons-strange-alliance-with-mikey-weinstein/article/1500225
http:// www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/the-pentagon-most-certain_b_3368434.html

Or generally look up the recent furor (late April, early May 2013) about the curtailing of religious freedom, particularly for Christians.
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PRMan, 11 Jun 2013 @ 6:35am

Re: Re: firehose of Information
"punish them if they have christian or conservative views"

Not in this country buddy. We have freedom of religion. If you want that sort of thing, there are plenty of atheist countries in Asia that I might suggest to you. Please. Go now. Don't come back. You un-American communist.
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Rikuo (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 6:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: firehose of Information
So a guy correctly points out how the US military can't have a painting of a Christian Crusader (ya know, the whole separation of Church and State) in the dining hall for US soldiers to look at...and that's proof of discrimination against Christians?
Ya know what would be proof? If in applying to be a soldier, one were asked "What religion are you?" and upon answering "Christian", you were then summarily rejected.
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Josef Anvil (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 6:58am

No story here
I'm guessing there would be no story to tell at all, IF the US gov't could supply a list of all the terrorist plots this program has revealed (not the ones the FBI instigated).

It's very difficult to swallow the "We need this to keep you safe" explanation, with zero proof that it is actually keeping anyone safe.

Intercepting all communications to prevent a statistically improbable event seems like a leap of faith.
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horse with no name, 11 Jun 2013 @ 7:10am

Re: Re: thyere ya go
Perhaps you find discussions of this topic uncomfortable ... care to explain why?

I don't find it uncomfortable at all. I was only pointing out that Mike and techdirt are being keyword sluts, desperately trying to drive traffic to the site by repeating the keywords over and over hoping to get a top ranking in Google.

It's slimy.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 7:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forward planning
sorry if I have upset your delicate sensibilities, does not change the facts, or what he is..

"Americas greatest citizens" LOL
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 7:30am

Re: Re: Re: Forward planning
China is no Equator, but if you believe that tripe then be prepared for a major letdown when China hands this traitor to the US on a plate, with an apple in his mouth. (and a stake up his ass).
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 7:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
last I checked 3.7% is STILL LESS that 6% !! I am 95% confident that it is !!
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
yes, there IS a debate about MANNING !!! not one about the documents manning stole and made public.

Do you see the difference ??

I guess not..
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Pragmatic, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:10am

Re: Re: Re: thyere ya go
So why are you here?
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Pragmatic, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:11am

Re: Re: Re: firehose of Information
Thank, you Sane Blue.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:18am

it also shows why the US government will go to any lengths possible to shut up the truth, shut up the whistle blowers, remove as many options for seeing that truth, accuse and imprison as many people as possible (Assange, Manning and Snowden when they get him). in fact, they will do whatever it takes to try to carry on making out that they are the dogs bollocks when, in fact, they are the biggest hypocrites and liars going!
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forward planning
Maybe that was to complex for you.

Stop talking shit, you've got nothing other than baseless accusations. The man is a hero who has stood up against what he (and roughly half of the public) believes to be wrong.

Treason means something else entirely.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:23am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Exactly. My "something is wrong in Mayberry" buzzer went off when I started to hear about 'secret' interpretations of 'secret' laws. Nothing else was required for me to be EXTREMELY concerned about these programs.
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horse with no name, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:25am

Re: Re: thyere ya go
It's perfectly normal in a Democracy for a branch of the government to trample the constitution and spy on it's citizens.

It would be important if they had done it. They have not.

So really, it's just lots of hot air and top search activity on Google as far as Techdirt is concerned.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:29am

Re: Re: Re: thyere ya go
"It would be important if they had done it. They have not."

Wow...ignorance is bliss.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's still a coin toss.

Are you seriously willing to bet the future of your country on a coin toss?
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:33am

Re: Re: Re: thyere ya go
Your country is quickly sliding into a Dictatorship.

I urge you to stop being a wise ass and demand that your government sorts this out quickly, or else you won't be "Land of the free" for long.
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John Fenderson (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 9:35am

Re: Re: Re: thyere ya go
It would be important if they had done it. They have not.

So you say. I disagree in the strongest possible way.
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John Fenderson (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 9:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: thyere ya go
Your country is quickly sliding into a Dictatorship.

Not dictatorship. Tyranny and corporate rule. And we aren't just sliding there, we've fully arrived.
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John Fenderson (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 9:43am

Re:
Snowden has been (correctly) portrayed as a "low level computer tech who clearly does not understand the appropriate checks and balances, nor the Constitutional correctness of the information he released (or fabricated).

He's not alone -- almost nobody "understands the appropriate checks and balances" or "the Constitutional correctness", as none of that has been shown outside of a small group of elites.

And that is the biggest (but not the only) problem with this whole situation. A highly invasive, and on the face of it, unconstitutional program was implemented completely in secret by fiat, and is run completely in secret, and the only justification or explanation we've been given is "trust us, because... terrorists!!"
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 11:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: firehose of Information
He must have taken his dried frog pills today.
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PopeyeLePoteaux, 11 Jun 2013 @ 12:40pm

Re:
"No wonder he's too chicken shit to have a direct and honest discussion about ANYTHING."

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120818/01171420087/funniestmost-insightful-comments -week-techdirt.shtml#c1210

You were saying?
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John Fenderson (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 1:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You are mistaken. I have seen and engaged in lots of debate about the documents themselves, both online and in mainstream news outlets.
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John Fenderson (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 1:50pm

Re: Re:
It is treason for the US intelligence community to spy on its own citizens in such a way as this, and then for their head to lie to Congress about it. That is treason.

Technically, although despicable, that isn't treason either.
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Matthew Cline (profile), 11 Jun 2013 @ 5:28pm

Re: Re: thyere ya go
While he appears to be a troll, that doesn't seem to be his trollish-angle. His angle seems to be:

1) Mike (and the other contributors) don't give a shit about what they write, they just want to get as many page views as possible.

2) Mike should clearly lay out his political and ethical philosophies, and debate that with commenters.
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horse with no name, 11 Jun 2013 @ 7:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: thyere ya go
You are free to do so. However, there are plenty of court rulings that say the opposite. Are you saying everything is rigged?

Do you think the helicopters are there only for you?
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 7:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: firehose of Information
Required reading?
How about some rational thought instead.

The term Religious Freedom may not mean what you think it means.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 8:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
darryl relies on coin toss to decide whether to spell words correctly.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Jun 2013 @ 10:41pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Forward planning
Where the fuck did anyone claim China to be an equator?

For some nobody hack in Australia you seem to have a lot of vested interest in citizens being spied on. Is that how you get a hard-on? Personally I don't think solar panels work too well if you jack off over them.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Jun 2013 @ 12:26am

Re: Re: Re:
Over 50% of a sample group LESS than 3 ten-thousandths of a percent of the entire population. Somehow doesn't seem to be a representative sample size.
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