CISPA's Sponsors Can't Keep Their Story Straight: If Snowden's Leaks Are False, How Do They Harm America?

from the keep-trying dept

Mon, Jun 17th 2013 1:13pm — Mike Masnick

We already discussed how bizarre it is to see NSA defenders trying to claim both that this story is nothing new and a huge danger to America, but that kind of thing continues. Witness two of Congress' biggest NSA defenders, Rep. Mike Rogers and Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger -- the two sponsors of CISPA -- try to claim that Snowden was both lying and exposing secrets that harm us all.

"He was lying," Rogers said. "He clearly has over-inflated his position, he has over-inflated his access and he's even over-inflated what the actually technology of the programs would allow one to do. It's impossible for him to do what he was saying he could do."

"He's done tremendous damage to the country where he was born and raised and educated," Ruppersberger said.

So, um, if he's lying and the information he leaked is not true, then how is he doing "tremendous damage" to the country? I guess the "damage" could be to our reputation as a freedom loving country that respects the 4th Amendment and basic rights to privacy, but that doesn't seem to be what Ruppersberger is claiming.

"Some people are saying that he's a hero. He's broken the law," Ruppersberger said. "We have laws in the United States for whistle-blowers, for people that think there's an injustice being done. All he had to do was raise his hand. ... Under the whistle-blower law, he is protected. Yet he chose to go to China."

Er... except we've seen exactly what happens to NSA whistleblowers who go that route. They get completely ignored and then charged with trumped up claims of leaking secrets anyway, and threatened with over 30 years in jail. It's pretty clear that just "raising his hand" doesn't work and actually puts you even more at risk. Furthermore, the current "whistle-blower" law is rarely used and even more rarely successful, with whistleblowers almost never winning their cases.

"I hope that we don't decide that our national security interests are going to be determined by a high-school dropout who had a whole series of both academic troubles and employment troubles," Rogers said.

Yup. The best Rogers can do is try to smear the guy, rather than respond to what he actually leaked, which is apparently all lies, but threatens us all. Sorry, Rogers, but the story doesn't hold up.

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Filed Under: cispa, dutch ruppersberger, ed snowden, mike rogers

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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:20pm

Yup. The best Rogers can do is try to smear the guy, rather than respond to what he actually leaked . . . .

That's right out of your playbook, Mikey. Attack the person while ignoring the merits of what he or she is saying. No wonder this stuff gets you all worked up. You would fit right in with these guys.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:23pm
  
  Re:
  Ironic.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- The Groove Tiger (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:33pm
  
  Re:
  "That's right out of your milkbook, Milkey. Attack the milk while ignoring the milk of what he or she is milking. No wonder this milk gets you all milked up. You would fit right in with these milkmen."
  
  FTFY. You're welcome.
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- jackn, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:35pm
  
  Re:
  what are the merits of what he or she is saying?
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:42pm
  
  Re:
  You trying to run for congress?
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- JMT (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:02pm
  
  Re:
  Feel free to link to examples of Mike attacking someone while ignoring the merits of what they said. If it's so common it should be easy for you. Way you go, we'll wait...
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:24pm

What does it say
"I hope that we don't decide that our national security interests are going to be determined by a high-school dropout who had a whole series of both academic troubles and employment troubles,"

What does it say about:

- The organization that hired him
- The government employee who approved his security clearance

Surely if he's as an underachiever as they're making him out to be, there's a high degree of incompetence involved for those who decided to allow him access to all of this.

When are THOSE idiots going to be identified as "national security risks?"
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:31pm
  
  Re: What does it say
  Around the same time as Haliburton are decried as a National Security risk.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:33pm
  
  Re: What does it say
  It says a lot about the person making the statement, it confirms they have no legs to stand upon.
  
  When you have no substantial argument(s), the standard fall back position is character assassination. Attack your opponent's character, friends, accomplishments rather than address the issue. This is SOP, sadly it works on some people.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - AC Unknown, 17 Jun 2013 @ 8:05pm
    
    Re: Re: What does it say
    You mean like what you just fell back on?
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - nasch (profile), 18 Jun 2013 @ 7:34am
      
      Re: Re: Re: What does it say
      You mean like what you just fell back on?
      
      He was attacking the guy's tactics, not his character.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:25pm

One particular thing that worries me about all this is that "a high-school dropout who had a whole series of both academic troubles and employment troubles" gets a job at the NSA.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 8:11pm
  
  Re:
  Those sorts of people do not work for the NSA. Do you think it took a person of inadequate skills and incompetence to do what he's done? No, probably not, and neither would the NSA. The incompetent people are sitting in Congress I'm afraid. The responsible people are sitting on their ass.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:30pm

Er... except we've seen exactly what happens to NSA whistleblowers who go that route. They get completely ignored and then charged with trumped up claims of leaking secrets anyway, and threatened with over 30 years in jail. It's pretty clear that just "raising his hand" doesn't work and actually puts you even more at risk. Furthermore, the current "whistle-blower" law is rarely used and even more rarely successful, with whistleblowers almost never winning their cases.

So Mike, are you saying that whistleblowers should just not even try to report whatever wrongs they perceive through proper channels first? Are you OK with people just deciding for themselves what should remain classified? Do tell (although, of course, you won't).
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- The Groove Tiger (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:34pm
  
  Re:
  Not enough milk in this comment.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    
    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:37pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Did someone ask for milk?!?!?!? Here ya go! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbN3WaAYyT4
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - The Groove Tiger (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:07pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      So did you get that job as a dairy farmer after all?
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - silverscarcat (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:24pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        So, what you're saying is...
        
        He argues like a dairy farmer.
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        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:25pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Actually, I think he argues more like a cow.
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        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:27pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        He sure moans like one.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        btrussell (profile), 19 Jun 2013 @ 4:58am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Chews his FUD over and over again too!
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:45pm
  
  Re:
  Hmmm, so you have decided to just quote the reason people would give you for your nonsensical arguments in your original post.
  
  Bold move troll. A bold move.
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- TheLastCzarnian (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:48pm
  
  Re:
  Damn, I heard there was an ENTIRE COUNTRY of people who are supposed to think for themselves, and not just follow the chain of command and do what they are told.
  
  What was the name of that country again? Oh, yeah, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
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    Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:51pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Damn, I heard there was an ENTIRE COUNTRY of people who are supposed to think for themselves, and not just follow the chain of command and do what they are told.
    
    That appears to be Mike's view. We don't really know though since he never bothers to discuss his views on the merits.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      
      Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:02pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      We want to debate the merits of you having a cactus shoved up your ass. Sideways.
      
      I think that will be more fun AJ.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:06pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      He won't discuss Meredith deal with it.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - TheLastCzarnian (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:31pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Then what's your view?
      
      Gutless wonder here dodges the statement, doesn't debate me on the stupidity of his comment.
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- JMT (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:06pm
  
  Re:
  "So Mike, are you saying that whistleblowers should just not even try to report whatever wrongs they perceive through proper channels first?"
  
  Did you even read the link that was in the text you quoted? Clearly not, or you'd realise how ignorant your comment sounds. Why would you choose a path that will have the exact opposite outcome that you want?
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 8:18pm
  
  Re:
  Only an idiot would have tried to stay within the prescribed reporting channel or chain of command for this given the current state of affairs. If that sounds to you like a good idea then you might an ...
  
  He went right to the top - and just in time (imho). Last chance for alcohol.. "virtual spirits" if you will.
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- Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2013 @ 1:10am
  
  Re:
  Guess what dipshit: Binney, Drake, and Wiebe all went through the proper channels. They failed. This was the only way, the American people didn't fucking pay attention before despite high-ranking former NSA telling anyone who'd listen.
  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials- roundtable/2428809/
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  - BearGriz72 (profile), 18 Jun 2013 @ 12:23pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Thanks for that link, lots of good info.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:34pm

"I hope that we don't decide that our national security interests are going to be determined by a high-school dropout who had a whole series of both academic troubles and employment troubles,"

I'd trust most high school dropouts more than most congressmen
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:45pm
  
  Re:
  You know, I had a crazy idea the other day. What if congress worked like jury duty? It'd be difficult to implement (some sort of videoconferencing system?), but I'd love to throw out the idea of congressmen having "political careers", being lobbied/getting job offers from the companies they regulate, etc.
  
  I mean, how many times have we seen congressmen proudly admit that they have no understanding whatsoever of the subject they're writing laws about? Clearly, no experience is necessary to be a congressman. Congressmen are also not exceptionally wise or mature, as anyone who watches C-SPAN can tell you. Maybe I'm missing something, but offhand, I don't see any reason why they couldn't be replaced with laymen.
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  - nasch (profile), 18 Jun 2013 @ 7:41am
    
    Re: Re:
    What if congress worked like jury duty?
    
    I think you would have straight up cash for votes bribery rather than the campaign contributions we get now, so not much difference there, except more people would be bad at it so they'd get caught. So that might be an improvement. The people who don't take bribes would be voting generally from a position of benign ignorance rather that ignorance plus political self interest. Unclear how that would turn out.
    The question is, who would the staffers be? If you left it the way it is now then they would be the ones with the real power, the ones taking the bribes, and the ones running Congress. The congresspeople would be figureheads. If you made the staffers randomly selected as well then they would mostly be bad at their jobs. Proposed legislation would probably be a mess. It would accidentally conflict with existing laws, would not contain what it needed to have to accomplish what it was supposed to, fail constitutional scrutiny, etc. I think on the whole it would be a disaster, just a different sort of disaster than the one we have now. Interesting idea though.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:50pm
  
  Re:
  What are you some sort of jerk?
  
  This is the third time you have posted the same stupid incompetent dribble.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:08pm
    
    Re: Re:
    What you have more trust in the US Congress?
    
    Say it ain't so.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 8:28pm
    
    Re: Re:
    I liked the jerk's incompetent dribble better than your competent(?) dribble. I'm sure the jerk is not the first to have that horrible sense of something being not quite right.
    
    Oh, right, because you like voting for the same. fucking. thing. year. after. year. I forgot.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:36pm

Well, those two senators are hopping mad, aren't they?
Something tells me they know a detail or two about the leaked items that have yet to be released. That, or they've been coached by someone who does.
Just a liiittle bit too eager to discredit Snowden, there. Not sure why they're bothering; anyone paying attention to what's going on is going to know offhand that Obama has attacked more whistleblowers than all the previous presidents put together.

Then again, I suppose that if the people in charge were actually competent, we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place, would we?
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:55pm
  
  Re:
  Well, those two senators are hopping mad, aren't they?
  
  Ed Snowden has committed the ultimate crime, made congress look stupid.
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  - TaCktiX (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:29pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Ed Snowden has committed the ultimate crime, made Congress, the President, and generally the US government look stupid.
    
    FTFY.
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    - Rapnel (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 6:23pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Ed Snowden has made a fat, complacent people look stupid.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - That One Guy (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 5:19pm
    
    Re: Re:
    For being 'the ultimate crime', sure doesn't seem hard to pull off.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Pragmatic, 18 Jun 2013 @ 5:45am
    
    Re: Re:
    Not that he had to do much. Have you SEEN who's on the Science committee? I despair!
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- Anonymous Coward, 18 Jun 2013 @ 12:41pm
  
  Re:
  Well, as long as we're doing ad-hominem attacks, Mike Rogers is married to a former president and CEO of Aegis LLC. Aegis LLC is the American branch of the global Aegis Group, and its headquarters are a few miles from CIA headquarters in Langley. Aegis does consulting, programming, and technology for intelligence and counter-terrorism work. It's not clear if they worked on any of the actual NSA programs at issue, but they're absolutely involved in similar projects.
  
  In other words, when people say that Rogers is "in bed with" the intelligence and spying communities, they mean it literally.
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Lord Binky, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:41pm

If these are his statements after being prepared, I'd much rather have the highschool dropout making the decisions.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:45pm

Employment Troubles
How exactly is making $122k a year and living in Hawaii considered "employment troubles?"

Not for nothing, but that sounds like one helluva gig.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:56pm
  
  Re: Employment Troubles
  $122K is very good compared to going to college.
  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/duke-grad-student-secretly-lived-in-a-van-to-escape-loan-deb t-194021112.html
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 1:51pm

Actually, I disagree completely with the thesis of this article, even though I strongly support Snowden and regard the two Senators' words as a calumny.

Obviously a person could lie, and yet leak a lot of sensitive documents at the same time. For example, he could lie about things he'd witnessed that went beyond the scope of the documents. An unstable or unprincipled person would be the most likely to do this. The alien enemy would be able to profit from the revelations in the documents while filtering the spoken claims.

Not that the Snowden leaks tell real enemies (terrorists or rival states) anything they didn't already know. The actual effect of the leaks is to inform the public and shift the debate. That's what's criminal, in the eyes of the government.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:02pm
  
  Re:
  You're right, a person could like...like James Clapper did while under oath, to congress.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:36pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Why is there not a warrant out for his arrest?
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Rapnel (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 6:24pm
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Because national security is more important than a national conscience.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 8:39pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Hear, hear! ... .. wait. ..
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- St. Patrick, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:43pm
  
  Re:
  You could also make the case that he's "harming America" by getting everyone needlessly riled up. Mind you, that's a long shot at best (and hopelessly unsubstantiated by the facts), but you know. Interests of fairness and all that.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:00pm

Quote:
"I hope that we don't decide that our national security interests are going to be determined by a high-school dropout who had a whole series of both academic troubles and employment troubles," Rogers said.

Fuck me, this coming from Mr. Buck Rogers there LoL

The guy is an ex-cop sitting on the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (Chairman) and his wife Kristi Clemens Rogers, was previously President and CEO of Aegis LLC, a contractor to the United States Department of State for intelligence-based security services. Does any more of his relatives work for companies that he is chairing a committee?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Rogers_(Michigan_politician)

I take the troubled dropout word over his any day.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:37pm
  
  Re:
  Can they spell Conflict of Interest?
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:12pm

"I hope that we don't decide that our national security interests are going to be determined by a high-school dropout who had a whole series of both academic troubles and employment troubles," Rogers said.

not a bad comment from someone who was all for getting more and more surveillance implemented, just because his spouse is in that game.

Snowden is, in my opinion, nothing less than a hero and the more you hear about him doing harm to his country, the more you know what he has said is true and those decrying him are liars, not worthy of the positions they supposedly hold of representing the people!
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out_of_the_blue, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:13pm

I'm going with Snowden being CIA to take a shot at NSA.
One still has to account for the secrets this guy (supposedly) has. Good speculation:

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/06/did-cia-give-nsa-documents-to-ed-snowden.html

Naomi Wolf: My Creeping Concern That The NSA Leaker Is Not Who He Purports To Be

http://www.cryptogon.com/?p=35659

Still more possible:

Multiplying scandals to hide the one scandal that could sink Obama

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/multiplying-scandals-to-hide-the-one-scandal-that-co uld-sink-obama/42448/

At least don't fall for the first story ya hear.

And gotta admire Mike for tying it back to CISPA!

Take a loopy tour of Techdirt.com! You always end up same place!
http://techdirt.com/
Where Mike fights CISPA without mentioning major data sources Google and Facebook.
10:12:49[l-145-4]
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- Howard the Duck, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:26pm
  
  Re: I'm going with Snowden being CIA to take a shot at NSA.
  Google man fights the google wherever he can.
  
  http://www.zdnet.com/how-did-mainstream-media-get-the-nsa-prism-story-so-hopelessly-wrong-70 00016822/
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- Niall (profile), 18 Jun 2013 @ 5:52am
  
  Re: I'm going with Snowden being CIA to take a shot at NSA.
  Rinf? OMG, that site makes Breitbart look like actual reporting.
  
  I wonder what all these frothing sites will do next time (hopefully far away) a Rethuglican is voted in. Maybe have orgasms over some Rand/Paul clone.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:14pm

It sounds less like he's saying 'These state secrets being public harm national security efforts... oh and they are false' and more like he is saying 'The falsehoods spread throughout the country as to the nature, scope, etc, of NSA spying are undermining people's faith in government, causing widespread panic and disruption, and causing severe turmoil in government as investigations are levied attempting to investigate these falsehoods.'.

Basically, I think he's saying 'One kid lied about it all and caused all this trouble'.

He's lying, but that seems to be what he's saying.
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- John Fenderson (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 2:31pm
  
  Re:
  If he's lying, then all of those government agencies who verified the essential facts of his story must be lying as well.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 4:42pm

Funny how members of congress make use of selective outrage.
1) Lie to Congress - ok
2) Lie to American public - not ok
Ohhhh, wait a sec .... they do that all the time
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Paul Renault (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 5:30pm

Rogers and Ruppersberger have learned from the Scientologists..
..one of their techniques, whenever some do-gooder published their advance and expensive books on the 'Net, they would: 1) drag the do-gooder to court, charging them with copyright violations; 2) claims that those weren't the real books anyway.

Scummy, unprincipled, and dishonest tactics then. Scummy, unprincipled, and dishonest tactics now.
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That One Guy (profile), 17 Jun 2013 @ 5:37pm

Wait... a... second...
I think I just figured out who the guy who keeps going on and on about milk is...

It's The Milkman from Psychonauts!

http://youtu.be/GR-FwptzdOQ

Fixation on government secrecy, obsession with all things milk, it makes perfect sense now!
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- AC Unknown, 17 Jun 2013 @ 8:08pm
  
  Re: Wait... a... second...
  Mind=blown
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jun 2013 @ 11:32pm

So you dont understand, but WE DO !!
So, um, if he's lying and the information he leaked is not true, then how is he doing "tremendous damage" to the country?

do you Masnick HONESTLY not understand that?? really !!!!

Apart from it being very sad you can not get your head around this, it is far worse that you expect therefore that no one else can work it out.

There does appear to be a lot of "if I cant understand it, then no one can"!!!

Fact is, it's not that hard, most can see this is not 'opposed' or self-contradictory statements.

Just because it's your opinion, does not make it right, yes you have a right to express your opinion, but that does not make it right or a fact.

The fact you cant understand something does not mean others with normal levels of intelligence and reasoning can understand something you admit you cannot.

I guess, you not understanding something is no barrier for you when it comes to commenting on it.

You probably don't understand that much about quantum mechanics either, that does not mean all transistors or CPU's will suddenly stop working!
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- Michael, 18 Jun 2013 @ 5:27am
  
  Re: So you dont understand, but WE DO !!
  If he were lying, they could easily prove it.
  
  Show people.
  If something is to sensitive for security purposes, show our Congressional representatives - there are certainly a few that would be happy to look at the program in detail and tell the American public if there is a problem.
  De-classify interpretations of the law.
  Allow tech companies to give us the numbers of orders they have received.
  
  The NSA is not doing any of this.
  Even if Snowden is lying about some things, enough of what he has said has been confirmed by the NSA to make the program suspicious enough to warrant a VERY close look and they do not want to give anyone that look.
  That is a problem.
  
  Instead of explaining their actions, they are jingling their keys in one hand about anti-patriotism and terrorism and using their other hand to try to get the lid back on the cookie jar.
  It will be a very sad day if enough of the citizens of this country look at the keys long enough to allow them to get the lid back on.
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Chuck, 22 Jun 2013 @ 1:55pm

He was lying about what he was capable of doing
He was lying about what he was capable of doing. There are 7 billion people on this planet. To suggest that a guy like Snowden could casually tap into any chat session, phone call or email at will is laughable. So that part he was lying about. But he evidently had documents that he shared showing that we spied on Russia and China.....when and how. That's pretty fuckled up if you ask me.
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- nasch (profile), 22 Jun 2013 @ 2:58pm
  
  Re: He was lying about what he was capable of doing
  There are 7 billion people on this planet. To suggest that a guy like Snowden could casually tap into any chat session, phone call or email at will is laughable.
  
  I don't think he was claiming to be able to spy on any of 7 billion people at will. It sounded to me like he was saying he could tap anyone's phone line in the US or intercept internet communications. The exact reach of the system on the internet is not clear and broadly not very important. If he could do even half of what he claimed that is horrible.
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