American Bankers' Association Claims Routing Numbers Are Copyrighted
from the um,-feist-feist-fesit dept
Reader J Cronin alerts us to the apparent fact that the American Bankers Association (ABA) believes that federal routing numbers are covered by its own copyright, and they've sent a takedown letter to a website that published routing numbers. Greg Thatcher runs a website that, among other things, publishes bank routing numbers. Those are the numbers that appear on the bottom of checks that basically tell you how to send the banks money. Thatcher gets those numbers directly from the Federal Reserve's website. Having a single source for those numbers is really useful for people trying to wire money, so you can see why Thatcher's page would be really popular with lots of people. But the ABA sent this bizarre email:Demand for Immediate Take-Down: Notice of Infringing ActivityAs you'll probably note, this is a typical DMCA takedown notice. But it seems ridiculous that they're claiming copyright on routing numbers. Thatcher responded to their email, pointing out that he was providing information that came from the Federal Reserve. While I can understand where he's coming from, his argument doesn't really mean very much. The federal government can distribute copyrighted works. Just because the Fed is distributing it, doesn't mean it's automatically public domain (if they had created the numbers it would be a different story). It would seem that a much stronger argument is that there is no copyright in routing numbers because there is no creativity in them, and they are merely factual bits of information, and you cannot copyright facts.
URL: http://www.gregthatcher.com/Financial/Default.aspx
Case #: 10
Date: 30 May 2013
Dear Sir or Madam,
The American Bankers Association has received information that the domain listed above, which appears to be on servers under your control, is offering unlicensed copies of, or is engaged in other unauthorized activities relating to copyrighted works published by the American Bankers Association 1. Identification of copyrighted works:
Copyrighted works:
ABA Routing Numbers
ABA Key to Routing Numbers
Copyright owner:
American Bankers Association
2. Copyright infringing material or activity found at the following location(s):
http://www.gregthatcher.com/Financial/Default.aspx
The above copyright works are being copied, displayed and made available for copying by others, including through downloading, at the above location without authorization of the copyright owner.
3. Statement of authority:
The information in this notice is accurate, and I hereby certify under penalty of perjury that I am authorized to act on behalf of American Bankers Association, the owner of the copyrights in the works identified above. I have a good faith belief that none of the materials or activities listed above have been authorized by American Bankers Association, its agents, or the law. We hereby give notice of these activities to you and request that you take expeditious action to remove or disable access to the material described above, and thereby prevent the illegal reproduction and distribution of these copyright works via your company's network. We appreciate your cooperation in this matter. Please advise us regarding what actions you take.
Yours sincerely,
Gareth Young
Internet Investigator
On behalf of American Bankers Association
1120 Connecticut Ave NW,
Washington,
DC 20036.
Either way, the ABA's lawyers from bigshot law firm Covington and Burling shot back that the ABA had, in fact, been "creative" in creating those numbers, and thus it had a valid copyright.
The ABA Routing Number was originally developed by the ABA to identify only check processing endpoints, but has evolved over the years to also designate participants in automated clearinghouses, electronic funds transfer, and on-line banking. These advances in the ABA Routing Number were the result of significant effort and creativity by the ABA. Today there are thousands ABA Routing Numbers and they play a critical role in the integrity of bank payment systems. Each nine digit ABA Routing Number is an original copyrighted work carefully selected and arranged as a result of the ABA's creativity. Copyright exists from the moment of creation of each ABA Routing Number and registration in the United States is voluntary.I have trouble seeing how that passes the laugh test. The lawyer who wrote those words, Nigel Howard, must have known they were ridiculous when he wrote them. He's an experienced lawyer. In the same letter (embedded below), Howard points out, reasonably, that the ABA is concerned about the continued dissemination of retired numbers. That's a legitimate concern, but it's not a copyright issue. It's also a concern that is easily taken care of by giving Thatcher up-to-date info on routing numbers, or (here's a crazy thought) having the ABA publish them itself. But, no, Howard explains:
The ABA is currently re-assessing with Accuity whether it will engage in any licensing programs, but does not have a licensing program available for websites like yours at the current time.Well, maybe rather than bullying small sites like Thatcher's with expensive lawyers and highly questionable copyright claims, the ABA should be figuring out a way to fix that problem.
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Filed Under: bankers, banks, copyright, facts, numbers, routing numbers
Companies: american bankers association
Reader Comments
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It would be like saying, who owns the copyright on the clothes I am wearing? The person on the other side of the mirror.
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Re: Re: @ "So who owns the copyright to 127.0.0.1?"
(Other religions vary on the point.)
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Re: Re: Re: @ "So who owns the copyright to 127.0.0.1?"
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I carefully & creatively selected my VPN IP address range so as to minimize the possibility of collision with most LAN IP addresses without having to custom configure the VPN adapter used to connect to it.
I think I should file for a copyright.
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Southco v Kanebridge (3rd Cir. En Banc, 2004)
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At least that is how I see it.
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Re:
(a) Copyright protection subsists, in accordance with this title, in original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed, from which they can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine or device. Works of authorship include the following categories:
(1) literary works;
(2) musical works, including any accompanying words;
(3) dramatic works, including any accompanying music;
(4) pantomimes and choreographic works;
(5) pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works;
(6) motion pictures and other audiovisual works;
(7) sound recordings; and
(8) architectural works.
there is no category "information" there. And as long as you don't enact any stupid "Leistungsschutzrecht", there is no way that there CAN be any rights on it.
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Prenda, for example ;-D
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I have a hard time believing that a routing number contains any more creative effort than a telephone number. Likely less because I have never heard of a vanity routing number.
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Which brings me to creativity, what is the effort in creating a serial number?
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What a fantastic copyright! Ever since 1876!
Eighteen-seventy-six and the copyright is still going strong! Can you believe that!
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That does not prove that there actually are any such rights!
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That's a classification system. Routing numbers are not.
Also, the lawsuit you mention was a trademark dispute, not a copyright dispute.
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In any event such a claim is extremely tenuous and tedious, and the lawsuit was eventually settled, so I'm not sure if it would have held up in court or not (hopefully not).
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Something's not right there. Copyright covers the expression of ideas. With the DDS, this would be the numbers themselves, or any documents written that describe the system. The system would not be copyrightable, as it is an idea, not an expression of an idea.
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The �system of numbering� ?
17 U.S.C. �102 - Subject matter of copyright: In general
The �system of numbering� ?
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Yes I know that logic is probably responsible for half the idiots in congress today.
However, it seems that,
1. It was a trademark dispute, not copyright
2. Unless it was renewed at some point, any relevant copyright has long expired.
3. My point is probably moot
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Re: Re: (Dewey Decimal)
I remember that story! It looks like they weren't successful in their lawsuit:
http://www.libraryhotel.com/dewey-decimal-system.html
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Therefore various serially assigned numbers (routing numbers, customer numbers, product serial numbers, etc) should be copyright eligible.
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So I owe ABA whenever I transfer cash between my bank accounts?
Hmm, must withdraw all $300,000 from my bank account, and store them in an armed safe to protect my money from the ABA.
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Not original!
Looks like the banks just want another slice of the pi!
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Re: Not original!
The courts certainly don't agree with that categorical statement. For example, the Ninth Circuit has held that price estimates (consisting of less than nine digits) are protectable by copyright in at least one case.
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Re: Not original!
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What circuit are we in?
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Re: What circuit are we in?
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Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
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Re: Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
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Re: Re: Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
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Re: Re: Re: Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
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Re: Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
IP numbers aren't terribly arbitrary.
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Re: Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
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Re: Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
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Re: Actually, there may be some ROUTING in the numbers.
Damn, that's the dumbest thing I've read from you guys since an AC tried claiming that WEP wasn't crackable!
If you put as much effort into actually learning how technology works as you do in spouting uninformed garbage... well, you probably wouldn't post here. Either you'd spend too much time actually learning how the real world works, or you'd be so ashamed at how wrong you've been all this time you wouldn't show your face.
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Filing for a copyright
I creatively selected this number and therefore I should be able to get a copyright on it.
Anyone that uses "3" is going to need to license it.
If you would like to purchase a pre-license, feel free to contact me.
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Re: Filing for a copyright
If a collection of letters together (known as 'words') can be copyrighted, why couldn't numbers?
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Re: Re: Re: Filing for a copyright
The general rule from courts that have really considered copyright protection for very short works is that the shorter the work (e.g., word or phrase), the greater the quotient of originality required to obtain protection.
I'm not aware of any case ever upholding copyright protection for a single word. I am aware of cases upholding copyright protection for, e.g., price estimates.
In fact, there was a recent case that refused to grant summary judgment of no copyright protection for a ranking of an NFL draft prospect (which could reasonably be characterized as a single number).
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copyright vs patent
also, they know they are on shaky (like San Francisco earthquake zone shaky) ground since they indicated that they didn't need to register the 'original' (my quotes) work. Guess all phone numbers are copyright covered too? And license plates? And street numbers? Highway numbers? who has the copyright to my SSN?
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copyright vs patent
also, they know they are on shaky (like San Francisco earthquake zone shaky) ground since they indicated that they didn't need to register the 'original' (my quotes) work. Guess all phone numbers are copyright covered too? And license plates? And street numbers? Highway numbers? who has the copyright to my SSN?
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My parents put a lot of effort and creativity into coming up with my name. Thus, they clearly have a copyright to that, transferred to me. Now I just need to file a C&D to all those guys that have illegally copied my name into various databases.
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Payment Due
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Does the ABA have a copyright licensing program?
Various software systems I've worked on over the years, which printed checks, and in some cases the MICR characters at the bottom. We never obtained or heard of any copyright license from the ABA. And we worked closely with one or more banks during development.
So is everyone using ABA in violation of copyright because they have not obtained a copyright license that gives them rights reserved exclusively to the copyright owner?
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Re: Does the ABA have a copyright licensing program?
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Model numbering systems also copyrightable?
OMC(Evinrude and Johnson) has a model numbering system
that equates INTRODUCES with the numerals 1 thru 0..
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Re: Model numbering systems also copyrightable?
(Emphasis added.)
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Number 9?
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There's no creativity in the first 4 digits of a route, nor the last
A route is a fact, just like an address (or a name)... there may be a element of creativity in there, but it is still a fact.
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Re: There's no creativity in the first 4 digits of a route, nor the last
Good luck with that.
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How is this different than a phone book?
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Re: How is this different than a phone book?
This case is not the same as Feist v. Rural. Instead of arguing that their list of numbers is copyrighted, the ABA is claiming that each individual routing number is a copyrighted creative work. The problem with this argument is that it is absurd.
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Started change.org petition
https://www.change.org/petitions/american-bankers-association-stop-claiming-copyrights-on-r outing-numbers-and-harassing-greg-thatcher
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Why this happens�from a lawyer
Instead of explaining to the client that there stance is incorrect, Covington Burling decides to back an incorrect cease and desist letter.
Let's be charitable. Let's say Mr. Howard spent 1 hour reading the response from Mr. Thatcher, reviewing the file in the matter, and drafting his letter. Or, alternatively, as a partner he may have had an associate spend this 1 hour.
Depending on who spent the time�Mr. Howard or Joe Doe Associate�you have the potential of this 1-hour bill being $300 or $500. This is another billable hour for the firm. Another billable hour for the partner's credit (and possibly the associate's).
Further, this billable hour will get lost on an invoice to the ABA which includes many billable hours for many matters. So the ABA general counsel will not notice and question the hour.
Plus, there may be a followup response from Mr. Thatcher. That will be more time that gets to be billed. Not a lot, but nevertheless a nice bit of time for the firm. Let's say another 2-3 hours potentially in the tune of potentially another $1,500.
In fact, this matter could be managed in such a way that this becomes a bigger issue for the ABA. Heck, maybe there are a series of correspondence, and more research has to be done on the question of whether these numbers are copyrightable. Then the insignificant matter becomes a real "project." This project might end up with another 10-20 hours of partner and associate time�anywhere from $6k to $20k.
Plus, Mr. Howard does not have to initially challenge the premises of his client. Instead of serving his client by actually advising his client on the law, and on the practical side effects of these kinds of actions (such as this story on Techdirt), he can choose not to counsel his client and instead send out clearly erroneous threat letters.
The upside is two-fold: (1) not challenging an important client on questionable decisions and (2) potentially milking more from this matter down the line.
The only down side really is that Covington Burling and Mr. Howard have chosen not to counsel their client on the legal and practical issues facing it in this matter. They have declined to discuss the risks associated with this kind of practice. They have waived their duty to counsel their client in lieu of serving merely as a drafter of legal documents.
This happens all the time with many lawyers. For example, look at the case involving that New Jersey township ( Epic Cease and Desist Letter ). The lawyer is looking to get paid. A side effect of the initial silly letter is that it fires up the other side (sometimes) and results in more billable hours. If it doesn't fire up the other side, then that usually means the bullying and intimidation based on questionable or false legal grounds worked and silenced a client's critics. One way results in more money for the lawyer, the other results in a satisfied client. Neither results in counseling a client on the risks associated with a particular legal action.
I deal with lawyers like this more often than I wish. Some will even admit they don't care about the law and are just satisfying their client's wishes. I wish I could say this will result in those lawyers making less money, or having less respect in the legal industry, or having a harder time finding clients, but I cannot.
You just have to deal with the jackasses as they come.
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Re: Why this happens�from a lawyer
The Covington attorney(s) may very well have advised the ABA about the weakness of their position, but told them that they could make the claim and send out the letter and see what happens for about $_________. Perhaps the ABA thought that was a wise use of funds to try to prevent a use they don't like.
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URL copyright
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Case Law
http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/197_F3d_1256.htm
But there is also case law that supports Greg.
Here are some overviews.
http://www.coolcopyright.com/chp4.htm
I know Greg personally and I'm going to recommend that he contact the EFF. If anyone can and would help it would be them.
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Thank God I am not an American!
In the United States the bullying of individuals by large organisations and the recent spy scandal involving your European Allies are just incredible.
"Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad."
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Our Response
http://martinassociateslaw.us/About%20Us/misc/thatcher.pdf
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