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Valerie Plame & Joe Wilson: This Has Nothing To Do With Snowden, The Intelligence-Industrial Complex Is Out Of Control

from the transparency-needed dept

Fri, Jun 28th 2013 7:39pm — Mike Masnick

Husband and wife Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson are well-known for an earlier "leaking" of "intelligence" information that resulted in Plame being outed as a covert CIA officer. The two have now written a powerful op-ed for the Guardian pointing out that the "intelligence-industrial complex" is completely out of control and very ripe for abuse:

We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. This alarming, unchecked growth of the intelligence sector and the increasingly heavy reliance on subcontractors to carry out core intelligence tasks – now estimated to account for approximately 60% of the intelligence budget – have intensified since the 9/11 attacks and what was, arguably, our regrettable over-reaction to them.

They point out that the size of the operation, the reliance on private companies and contractors more focused on profits than what's best for the country, combined with the massive amount of secrecy all needs to change:

On this spying business, officials from Director of National Intelligence James Clapper to self-important senators are, in effect, telling Americans not to worry: it's not that big a deal, and "trust us" because they're keeping US citizens safe. This position must be turned on its head and opened up to a genuine discussion about the necessary, dynamic tension between security and privacy. As it now stands, these programs are ripe for abuse unless we establish ground rules and barriers between authentic national security interests and potential political chicanery.

Separately, they point out that the focus on Ed Snowden is nothing more than a "sideshow" which distracts from the real issue: which is just how insanely out of control the intelligence infrastructure of the country has become.

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Filed Under: corruption, intelligence, intelligence-industrial complex, joe wilson, valerie plame

36 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2013 @ 7:54pm

Separately, they point out that the focus on Ed Snowden is nothing more than a "sideshow" which distracts from the real issue: which is just how insanely out of control the intelligence infrastructure of the country has become.

I don't get why you think we have to only focus on the NSA and not on Snowden as well. Both are interesting stories in themselves. It's not a sideshow. It reminds me of how you reacted with Swartz, where you wouldn't discuss what Swartz had done and instead try to steer to the conversation only to the CFAA and practices of journals. Both can be compelling stories that are worthy of our focus, Mike.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2013 @ 8:00pm

Re:
Snowden is ultimately irrelevant beyond his role in leaking the information; it could have been anyone else with access to that information. Snowden himself is as news-worthy as the average celebrity. The reason why he's a sideshow is because the government and media intentionally try and make him the issue, so that we don't think the NSA is the issue. Same thing with Swartz and the CFAA. All they are is a distraction from the key issue.

In short, they're the circuses in "bread and circuses".
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velox (profile), 28 Jun 2013 @ 8:21pm

Re: Sideshows
The fact that sideshows are interesting doesn't change the fact that they are still sideshows.

The US Constitution, and the government's duty to uphold that essential American document is the story.

What is some guy named Snowden who we never heard of until a few weeks ago compared with the that?
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TtfnJohn (profile), 28 Jun 2013 @ 8:25pm

I can understand the idea that endless discussion and attention to Snowden can become and may already be a side show. Particularly since the publicity hounding Assange and Wikileaks got involved.

What is technically fascinating is the route he's taken to keep the rest of his material away from the American government and intelligence community unless or until something happens to him. It's possible the key could be as little as a single byte which could trigger the sending of his other documents out after they've been unscrambled.

Despite what he's charged with he's a whistle blower, nothing more or less. Which is an honourable thing in an open and free democracy when government starts to get out of control. which, in this case, and more it seems, it has.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2013 @ 9:54pm

Out an operative, possibly putting them in danger?
No big deal

Confirm what everyone already suspected?
Treason
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Jun 2013 @ 10:04pm

Culture of Celebrity
I'd totally watch an Ed Snowden - Kim Kardashian sex tape.
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JMT (profile), 28 Jun 2013 @ 11:40pm

Re:
His story is interesting but far less important. Those who have the most to lose will try to distract from the massive secret surveillance by pushing Snowden into the limelight. Don't let them.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2013 @ 12:06am

Evidently other folks are beginning to see what I've been talking about here. The not hearing public officials own up to the issue of out of control spying. No one in the intelligence community is coming out to say, "yeah we went too far". Instead it's been that very lack of coming out and being transparent that tells me what is going on.

It's now about damage control and shutting down those known programs so they can be restarted in another name still doing the same things once the attention is gone. It's not about recognizing it's gone too far.

Character assassination has always been a tool of media and the intelligence community to divert attention away from what they are doing and to justify seeking the maximums for a spy when all it is, is as mentioned a whistle blower who does not deserve this sort of reaction from an embarrassed government. In this Obama and the DOJ have pretty much been caught red handed at it. Only now it is out in the open about it. It will be far harder to institution these kangaroo courts and charges without the public asking questions. I also suspect that this might still be early enough to help Bradley Manning with another of these kangaroo courts.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 29 Jun 2013 @ 3:12am

Re:
"Despite what he's charged with he's a whistle blower, nothing more or less. Which is an honourable thing in an open and free democracy when government starts to get out of control."

Unless of course they have been out of control for so long that it is impossible to turn the ship.
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antymat, 29 Jun 2013 @ 3:22am

So tell me - do NSA това́рищи have small red books for IDs?
And does Honecker^H^H^H^H^^H^H^H Obama still live in a delusion of the free country of free people?
Oh, sorry, Honecker might have been deluded that it will just stay that way...

They have trained you, Americans, very well indeed. And for the good - instead of barbed wire, death zones, defectors and costs of that all - everyone is happy with the brain washed so well it shines. If anything - this definitely IS a success of the "war on terrorism".
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2013 @ 4:29am

the best form of defence is attack and that's exactly what all the intelligence/security agencies are doing. if they cvan keep the spotlight on Snowden, blaming him for everything, making out how what he did is so heinous a crime, the real crimes and the real perpetrators are able to get away with what they have done/are still doing and have no backlash or recrimination against them. the only thing i have read recently that ought to stop is Snowden's father being his mouth piece. if the man actually thinks that nothing will happen to his son, even if iron-clad conditions are given, he is in cuckoo land! the word of the government is about as much use as a chocolate coffee pot. it means nothing! even Obama has lied about protecting whistle blowers. if Snowden came back to the USA, he will either be imprisoned for life or will meet with a fatal 'accident'. if i were his father, i would keep my mouth shut unless he wants a corpse for a son!!
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2013 @ 5:56am

Re: So tell me - do NSA това́рищи have small red books for IDs?
Long live the Lizard People
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Crusty the ex-clown, 29 Jun 2013 @ 8:11am

LIBOR rigging
So did the NSA help catch the banksters who fiddled with the London bank rate? What did the NSA know about HSBC's money laundering for drug cartels and terrorists and when did they know it? Enquiring minds want to know precisely who NSA is protecting, and from whom.
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Ergo, 29 Jun 2013 @ 8:52am

Some people don't help your point...
"Separately, they point out that the focus on Ed Snowden is nothing more than a "sideshow" which distracts from the real issue..."

Are they correct? Yep. Are they massive, undying, hypocrites who showed were so concerned about their "sideshow" that they *appeared on the cover of Vanity Fair*? Yep!
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2013 @ 11:51am

Re: LIBOR rigging
Launder drug money? , finance terrorists? - (the real kind)
Too big to jail

Nibble a poptart into a shape that sort of resembles a pistol
Suspension
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2013 @ 2:31pm

Re: Re: LIBOR rigging
Of course, power is the only thing that matters to those sociopaths. Lack of power is a sin that invites punishment.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2013 @ 7:11pm

The pathetic part is no one here has equated NSA and Stasi or NKVD.

Consider the US has more political prisoners (we call them drug convictions) than the USSR ever had.

The US has a more powerful domestic intelligence organization than the USSR ever had.

The US disappears people at places like Gitmo and Diego Garcia. Once on Google one could see the gulag camp and the area surrounding the camp, not now.

That elections are just as rigged in the US today as they were in the USSR.
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Rudy, 29 Jun 2013 @ 9:24pm

Re:
"I don't get why you think we have to only focus on the NSA and not on Snowden as well."

Review and redo: Mike said THEY pointed this out, whereas your reply suggests "Mike" did. These two stories are not equally yoked in the press either. They are clearly pushing character over action on this one.
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Haudenosaun, 29 Jun 2013 @ 9:27pm

Re: Re:
A possibility, yes. But there is also the probability that the ship will sink. All empires fall and we may be witnessing the denouement of this one.
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Anonymous, 30 Jun 2013 @ 6:31am

Re: Culture of Celebrity
It would never happen. Snowden isn't black enough for Kim.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2013 @ 8:50am

Re: Re:
Someone makes public classified documents, engaging in espionage, and that's not a story? Like I said, both the documents and the man are viable stories. Many (Mike included) only want to talk about the documents, but I think it's important, if we're putting things into context, to discuss why certain types of documents are classified to begin with.

Do you think that it's OK for people entrusted with state secrets to just disclose them whenever they want to? Should we just let one person decide for himself what's important and worth keeping secret and what's not? Let's talk about that too since it's also a big part of this story.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2013 @ 8:53am

Re: Re: Sideshows
But it's not a sideshow. Whether we should be encouraging individuals to violate their duty and to take things into their own hands is very much central to this story. Do you think that every person entrusted with classified documents should just make them public if they unilaterally decide that that they think that's best? I don't.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2013 @ 8:54am

Re: Re:
No one is losing focus on the surveillance because they're focusing on the propriety of Snowden's actions. It seems to me you guys are just sweeping the inconvenient stuff under the rug.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2013 @ 9:01am

Re: Re:
My point is that Mike is doing the same thing. He's focused on the surveillance, but unwilling to discuss whether Snowden did anything wrong in the moral sense.
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bigpicture, 30 Jun 2013 @ 10:22am

Re: Blinkers
They used to put blinkers on draft horses so they could only see in front of them and not to the sides. This was so they could control the horses decisions/actions. This is what the government is doing to you, keep you focused on their agenda so that you will not look at the bigger picture.

(1) Who pays for all this? The Taxpayer? That makes the taxpayer a CONSUMER. But not protected by the normal consumer protection laws. The consumer laws protect the consumer from false and misleading advertising, from certain forms of secrecy, from collusion, monopoly etc.

The Swartz issue was that the taxpayer had already paid for the information, AND THEREFORE IT SHOULD BE IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN, just because the government has a monopoly and CAN MAKE THE LAWS, that makes it ILLEGAL to put the information in the PUBLIC DOMAIN, does not make the LAW right.

The issue with the NSA is, and you will see more of this GRIND the USA into the ground, under the guise of NATIONAL SECURITY, the good old USA was actually spying on it's TRADING PARTNERS, to get a trading advantage, so how will China, Russia, Europe see this? Will they not say FU we are not trading with you any more, because we don't need you, or your Monsanto, or your Apple or anything else, I know that would be my reaction.
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ipgrunt (profile), 30 Jun 2013 @ 2:12pm

Re: Let's talk about leaking secrets...
Mr. Coward, I believe you miss the point about the trade-off here between "secrets being leaked" and a free society.

The gatekeepers who decide what is secret and what is not are the same group who are violating our constitutionally guaranteed rights to privacy, speech, thought, and trial by jury. This situation violates our tradition of the balance of power and is therefore intolerable in the American system of government.

Many Americans, including no doubt Mr. Snowden, believe that these gatekeepers are 1) abusing their citizen-given power, and 2) covering up their abuse of power by making the fact a "national security secret."

Hell, every day new revelation. Now it is revealed that we have violated the trust of our own allies by spying on their government and citizens. We risk becoming a pariah on the world stage because of the actions of the "intelligence-industrial complex."

I think the point many are making, including Valerie Plame & Joe Wilson is that our "national security" is in greater danger from the usurpation of constitutional rights by those who abuse that power without accountability, than it is from any foreign power who might wish us harm.

Our federal government has no constitutional basis for wire-tapping and recording every telephone call made in America. Yet, the government not only does exactly this, it lies about it.

The IRS is again being used as a hammer in which to smash those within this country who's thoughts are not aligned with the powers in office. This is a Nixonian-era abuse of power that added to pressuring one president to resign office.

Even the offices of the Associated Press, a wire service that feeds all other news services, has been wiretapped without cause and without a court order.

I believe America has a mandate to support and defend the right to privacy, free speech, and free thought. Yet, this and past administrations violate all three principles of freedom.

Have the events of 9/11/2001 repealed our Bill of Rights? Those in power seem to think so, with Patriot I and Patriot II, and who knows how many other Presidential Findings?

However, I am not willing to trade my constitutional guarantees of freedom of privacy, speech, thought, and trial by jury for the current political simulation of national security we now have, which is in my opinion, designed for consumption by and pacification of an uninformed citizenry.

There are better methods to maintain security than spying on every American who uses a telephone or sends an email. If we don't know what they are today, then we better find them, fast.

Have you no outrage about these intrusions on our basic freedoms or are you content with the status-quo?

Bravo to Mr. Snowden, a true American freedom-lover who had the courage to act. America needs to stand behind Mr. Snowden.
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JMT (profile), 30 Jun 2013 @ 2:22pm

Re: Re: Re:
Mainstream media seems to be running far more stories on Snowden (daily location updates!) than the actual leaks, even though the leaks keep on coming.

I'm not sure exactly what you think is inconvenient.
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JMT (profile), 30 Jun 2013 @ 2:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Sideshows
Secrecy should only be maintained if it's in the public interest. In this case it's pretty clear the secrecy was entirely because the public would be horrified to learn the truth. You may have a moral issue with breaking an oath of secrecy, but surely there's a point where what is being kept secret is not only immoral but far worse than oathbreaking.
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JMT (profile), 30 Jun 2013 @ 2:44pm

Re: Re: Re:
Oh, it's you AJ. What a surprise...
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btrussell (profile), 30 Jun 2013 @ 8:03pm

Re: Re: Culture of Celebrity
Den give her some more snow den.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Jul 2013 @ 3:08am

Re: Re: Re: Sideshows
The focus on Snowden is not meant to provide any answers or background information. It's intended as a distraction and direct the public attention away from the actual leaked information. Nothing more.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Jul 2013 @ 3:19am

There is a very large difference between how the media and political establishment treats the Valerie Plame leak and the Snowden leak. One leak was for the benefit of the people in power and the other did not. Snowden is now hunted across the globe by the US government, while members of the political class blurts out threats of vengeance against his person in the media.
The leaker of Valerie Plame's identity will not have to fear any such repercussions.
There a "good" leaks and there are "evil" leaks when it comes to the government.
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Davol, 1 Jul 2013 @ 9:30am

Elephant in the Room
One aspect of the Snowden angle of this story is the elephant in the room I see all too well, which is why he ran all the way to Hong Kong instead of going through "normal channels" as the media puts it. Look at Bradley Manning who today is probably genuinely insane from the last 3 years of solitary confinement he has been in. The Snowden story sheds light on that, which ought to lead to an outcry to free Bradley Manning who was also leaking truth to the people from this BS fog of a so called war.
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John Fenderson (profile), 1 Jul 2013 @ 9:33am

Re: Re: Re: Sideshows
Do you think that every person entrusted with classified documents should just make them public if they unilaterally decide that that they think that's best?

It's a valid question. On the one hand, there's an obvious problem with being OK with that. On the other hand, if people never did it, then all kinds of serious misbehavior would never have been spotted and corrected.

In my opinion, it is essential that there are people who are willing to divulge classified documents in the course of whistleblowing. At the same time, it's important that there be serious consequences for doing so, to ensure that people wouldn't engage in such behavior casually.
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John Fenderson (profile), 1 Jul 2013 @ 9:35am

Re: Re: Re:
The surveillance itself is the story that has the greatest importance, as it actually harms us all. Snowden himself is of lesser importance by a couple orders of magnitude.

I think too much attention is being placed on Snowden as it is. That story is, by any definition, a sideshow.
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lololol, 9 Jul 2013 @ 3:01pm

Spying
These people in the "military industrial complex" are all related to you, they didn't just fall out of the sky one day. They are your familial relations.
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