Did Ed Snowden Actually Write His Latest 'Statement'?
from the english,-do-you-speak-it... dept
Update: Over the weekend, Glenn Greenwald received confirmation from Snowden that the piece was written by him. It sounds as though someone at Wikileaks screwed up in posting it. Still, given the political nature of what's happening, it seemed like a fairly reasonable question to ask.Original post below:
So a lot of folks are talking about Wikileaks releasing the latest statement from Ed Snowden from Moscow. It honestly doesn't say much, beyond criticizing the report that VP Joe Biden has been pressuring Ecuador into rejecting Snowden's request for asylum:
On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic "wheeling and dealing" over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.Of course, some quickly noted that the choice of phrases is a bit odd. Farhad Manjoo correctly points out that it's quite unlikely for any American to write "the United States of America have been..." An American would say "has been" not "have." It's a much more European use of English to say "have been." It's entirely possible that someone else "edited" the statement, or perhaps it was a mis-transcription of spoken words, but it at least calls into question how much of the statement is actually from Snowden.
This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me.
For decades the United States of America have been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.
In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.
Given everything that's been going on, there has been growing concern that Snowden is quickly becoming a pawn of a variety of other political actors with a variety of other motivations. It does seem odd that Snowden has aligned himself with Wikileaks (a site he's mocked in the past). Hopefully, the full statement can be confirmed in some manner, because that language choice really does raise some serious questions about its authenticity.
Update: And... just as I finished this post, Manjoo tweeted that they'd changed the text to "has been." However, that's not what it was originally. Here's a screenshot of it from my screen with the wrong "have been" in there.
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Filed Under: ed snowden, grammar, statement, wikileaks
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Assange prints...
" This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile."
This is way to grandiose for the more plain spoken Edward. Edward has a wry humor to him.
Remember how he talked about dying for country? Simple. To the point.
" In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless."
Again, this is prose. Poetic. It doesn't vibe with Snowden's history. This is a man that has been more at home with a computer. Analyzing and sifting data uses more analytical thought which doesn't coincide with speech. You learn to talk and I doubt that Edward had that kind of interest.
My thoughts? He had a rough draft, but Assange decided to use Snowden for his own purposes. Take that as you will.
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Re: Assange prints...
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Plural 'United States' not unheard of domestically...
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/05/these-united-states-how-obamas-vocal-tic-rev eals-a-polarized-america/275739/
I think it's most common if wanting to emphasize states' rights or distinct characters... so you also see it sometimes in the rhetoric of some right-wing/originalist groups. (["these united states" "ron paul"] = 744K hits; ["these united states" "barack obama"] = 244K hits)
So it *could have been* a consciously chosen affectation of Snowden's... though Wikileaks' editing makes it seem like their own error of clumsy group-composition.
Why isn't the statement signed with a PGP key, such as the one Wired thought could be Snowden's? Quite possibly, where Snowden currently is, he doesn't have confidence he could unlock his key for signing without compromising it to nearby minders.
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Re: Plural 'United States' not unheard of domestically...
The use of "these United States" is a bit different, in that that's more poetic license, trying to make a statement sound grander. This was just an ordinary verb choice... a bit different, I think.
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Re: Plural 'United States' not unheard of domestically...
"The United States", with the singular article, should be followed with "has", not "have", as a mater of normal American English conjugation.
Here's the thing, and this isn't normal English, as far as I can remember, with "these", the emphasis is on "states" as separate entities, with "the", the term "United States" is effectively a single, and singular, propper noun.
It's a mistake that most Americans are unlikely to make, because the shifting emphasis on States as a plural and United as a single entity is a familiar idiomatic anomaly.
To a non-American it's an arbitrary mess without any real logic backing it up.
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Re: Re: Plural 'United States' not unheard of domestically...
It's much more common in libertarian circles to intentionally refer to the United States as plural, as it removes the emphasis from the central power structure.
This isn't odd, as it was the states that joined together to form the United States. It wasn't until after the civil war that things were generally thought of as a single unit.
I think that single word choice is far less of a flag than is the general tone and flow of the statement. But who knows.
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re: PGP key
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Re: re: PGP key
Dude, maybe you're not paying attention: We're talking about Lon Snowden right now. The father. Not Ed Snowden, who is purportedly in the transit zone at Moscow Sheremtevyo Airport. Lon Snowden, the guy whose name is on the comment.
If a reputable reporter meets Lon Snowden in person, and obtains a GPG key fingerprint, that's good enough to authenticate a comment. One would hope that a reputable reporter would consider checking a driver's license, but even that might not be completely necessary: Consider, if someone tries to impersonate Lon Snowden in a TV interview which airs on national news. Whether or not the reporter checks the driver's license, an impersonation would probably get caught pretty quickly.
Good enough to authenticate comments here at Techdirt, at any rate. Don't know about you, tovarisch, but I'm not going to tell the guy any secrets.
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Re: Re: re: PGP key
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Re: Re: Re: re: PGP key
Right you are. That's what I get for posting at 12:36am.
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Re: Re: re: PGP key
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Ed Snowden
I know my son - those are definitely his words. BY the way, his IQ has been twice tested in excess of 140 and he was a 16 year old college "drop in," not a high school drop out in the context that has been used. The comment suggesting that he is "plain spoken" is typical of what I've been watching for the last month -- if you don't work for one of the major media networks, you should. Lon Snowden
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Re: Ed Snowden
Wow. So, by making a simple observation that questioned the authenticity of this note, which is done in a highly politicized way, makes us NOT DESERVING of being protected by the Constitution?
I realize you may not be a regular reader, but we've been among the biggest defenders of Snowden and the leaks around so far. It seems fairly ridiculous that we should be told that we don't deserve the Constitution for merely trying to make sure the statement was legit.
BY the way, his IQ has been twice tested in excess of 140 and he was a 16 year old college "drop in," not a high school drop out in the context that has been used.
We've made no statements about his intelligence, nor his academic credentials, because we believe such things are not that important to the actual issues.
I realize others have made such statements, but to attack us for making such a statement is a bit over the line, don't you think?
if you don't work for one of the major media networks, you should.
Dude. Not everyone is out to attack you and your son. Some of us have been defending his actions. Not everyone is out to get you. We just want to make sure his statement was legit, because there were legitimate questions raised.
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
People have the right to know when the government is fucking up.
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Re: Re: Re: Ed Snowden
Rest assured, I am Ed Snowden.
Would you happen to have a number where I can reach your wife and does she have a valid passport?
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
The Constitution?
the Sun?
"the Sun,
Who doth permit the base contagious clouds
To smother up his beauty from the world,
That, when he please again to be himself,
Being wanted, he may be more wonder'd at,
By breaking through the foul and ugly mists
Of vapours that did seem to strangle him."
If the man is indeed Lon Snowden, we can see why his son was reportedly so confused in the past, about WIkileaks, Assange, . We first learn from our revered parents - and if we learn things like others are undeserving dirt, well then the sins of their fathers will be visited upon their children.
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Re: Ed Snowden
Sorry. I strongly suspect I'm being trolled.
You could try PGP/GPG authenticating your posting here, but how would we establish a chain of trust for your signature? You might try getting a reputable newspaper to print the fingerprint of your OpenPGP key. Not sure if someone like Glenn Greenwald would be willing to do that for you.
Nice troll, though.
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Re: Ed Snowden
And if you actually are Ed's father, I wish you and your son nothing but the best. The county owes him a debt it can never pay, and you should take solace in the fact that history will remember him as a patriot, of this I have no doubt.
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Re: Ed Snowden
A person who questions the authenticity of a statement — no matter if it comes from Ed Snowden, President Obama, or the whackjob down the street who keeps yelling about dogs and cats living together causing mass hysteria — does not deserve to have their natural right to speak their mind and express themselves taken away because someone else doesn’t like the fact that said questioner decided to speak their mind.
I don’t give a damn if you fucked Ed Snowden’s mom and helped bring him into existence. You don’t get to tell me I, Mr. Masnick, or anyone else don’t deserve their granted-by-the-nature-of-existence rights — rights protected by the Constitution of the United States, rights you would want to exploit while leaving those questioning the authenticity of this statement out in the cold — because you happened to have stuck your penis into the right woman’s vagina at the right time. You don’t get to tell me I don’t deserve the right to speak my mind, sir.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to go make a few signs about cats and dogs.
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Ed Snowden
We're supposed to take your word for that?
"and those of you suggesting that he did not write the letter, are representative of a public that may in fact not deserve the freedom afforded by our Constitution."
There is so much wrong with that statement. How are we to know whether he wrote it? We don't have the benefit of having known him since he was born, and only have the words to look at. Words that are coming out of Russia. If Vladimir Putin said it was cold in Siberia, I'd want to launch a weather balloon to verify that.
And for merely questioning whether he wrote this particular thing, we don't deserve the protections of the Constitution? Maybe you should save that for the fools who support all the spying on everyone. They not only don't deserve the protections, they don't WANT them.
But anyway, you DON'T even know for sure that he wrote this. From what I understand you haven't been in contact since this all happened. If it sounds like him, then maybe they've just copied certain elements of his writing style.
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Ed Snowden
But Sir, you a wasting your time trying to speak for your son on this web site.
I understand you believe your son to be intelligent, and clearly he is, but that does not mean smart people can and WILL do dumb things. I am sorry to say your son has most certainly done some very dumb actions in regard to this.
He certainly had a choice, he made a very bad one (or many).
If you get a chance to talk to your son, you should act like a responsible father and advise him to 'do the right thing', where were you in teaching your son to respect the law, and to not lie?
There are liberal whistleblower laws in the US for this purpose, why would someone intelligent like your son take advantage of the protections it affords. Did your son not realise that Russia and China are not nearly as forgiving as the US in this type of thing..
That is a lesson I assume Ed is working out for himself at the present time, to his great determent.
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
This is not a twice translated letter. There is *another* letter that was translated. Not this one.
Try again.
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
Protection? Are you joking or have you not been paying attention to the recent persecution of whistle-blowers by the USG?
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Re: Re: Re: Ed Snowden
yes, I have been paying attention, have you ?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
Because those "liberal whistleblower laws" do not actually give any protection.
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Re: Ed Snowden
"...those of you suggesting that he did not write the letter, are representative of a public that may in fact not deserve the freedom afforded by our Constitution."
...reads like it was written by someone who wasn't guaranteed the protections of the Constitution from birth.
Someone perhaps from a country where such freedoms were not common.
Someone from a country that recently had similar freedoms, and is now having those freedoms subtly retracted...
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
So, he could be from the US?
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Re: Ed Snowden
That seems to be addressed to me.
So let me explain. I have nothing against your son or his intelligence. But I do study language. Having to read how people speak and talk is interesting to me. All I've stated is more that he doesn't talk as grandiose as Assange. After watched the Wikileaks documentary from a while back, Assange has certain things that he enjoys doing. It's like a calling card. He likes to accuse the US of these issues as well as speak in a more grandiose manner.
It's not a put down, it's just a different way of talking. No, I don't know your son personally, but I'd love to have a beer with the guy and talk to him about how he worked to save the country similar to other whistleblowers.
It's not an attack on him, it's just saying that there are things he seems to say differently than Assange who I'm making the comparison to.
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
Do you ever code-switch? Speak in a different register? Tailor your speech to both your audience and the setting?
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Re: Re: Re: Ed Snowden
Linguistics and the language of economic theory have some interesting and different entry points.
As I said, all this does is point out that there are indeed things that are off, as if it's not an American speaking.
Yes, I do speak in different registers and use different terms than what people use to avoid buzzwords and loaded terms. But there's a certain way people speak that you tend to notice.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Ed Snowden
I may be more of a natural mimic than most. Yet I definitely notice that my “speech”, both oral and written, is influenced not just by where I am and who I'm speaking with at the moment, but also by who I've spoken with and what I've read most recently.
More concretely, after I've finished reading a legal brief, even several hours later, I often find myself with execrable writing, requiring a great deal of self-correction. Contrariwise, I enjoy the influence that seventeenth and eighteenth century prose has upon my style.
The point is that people vary their ways of speaking. If you think you've got some stranger's style down cold based on a miniscule corpus—think again. You're not noticing carefully enough.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ed Snowden
Jay, The word you seek here is jibe. Catch my vibe?
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
Julian on'y talk 'Strine with a few more syllables in his mouth than Stout.
He be eddicated, I'd tell ya if I wuz "Maricun."
Assange with whom you're making comparison.
It's apparently early in your study of language, I 'spect.
Y'all be workin' on your speechifyin', y'hear?
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Re: Ed Snowden
This 4th of July, perhaps we should mourn the loss of our Constitutional republic to the tyranny of elitists who have apparently hijacked it into oblivion.
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
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Re: Re: Ed Snowden
I got my comment on this in first.
Signed,
the Fake Michael - who has mourned the loss of Constitutional govt for many decades, since I and others were imprisoned for merely saying no to unconstitutional laws. Don't wait till July, and don't mourn this morn.
Exercise your freedoms, in spite of the obese Constitution-stompers.
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Re: Ed Snowden
THe internet is full of individuals - private, public, religious, corporate, and government who constantly screech that some are undeserving and should be assassinated, etc. for their positions or actions.
We have just read a well-composed letter purportedly by yourself, Mr. Snowden Senior, and it is quite clear that a strongly principled person who knows how to communicate, crafted that letter. Although it might be entirely the product of your legal counsel, hopefully you signed off on it without reservation.
The ethics and sentiments in that letter are dangerously at odds with the "not deserving" comment above.
Thank you for your support of your son's difficult ethical decision, which is costing him so much as the US government's response grows continuously less representative of those Constitutional rights you, yourself are unwiling to extend to us, the undeserving.
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Re: Ed Snowden
Hi Lon. For Mike to work at a major media network, he'd have to do actual journalism. That's not what he does, so it would never work. He instead just publishes ridiculous nonsense that he's too scared to defend in the comments, and when he gets caught saying something stupid (a frequent occurrence), he claims it's all OK since people can just correct him in the comments. See, it's simple! Welcome to Techdirt.
Don't worry, though. Mike doesn't think your son did anything wrong, and he will defend him to the end of time. And, of course, Mike won't ever discuss what your son did with anyone who challenges the Techdirt "group think" in the comments. It's so much easier to claim the stuff that Mike claims when he's not bothered by those pesky people pointing out what bullshit he says. So keep your chin up. Techdirt is one of the biggest cheerleaders for your son out there. Mike is so obsessed with your son that it's silly.
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Jumping the gun?
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Re: Jumping the gun?
I am Anonymous?
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This is going to sound like a cheap shot
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Re: This is going to sound like a cheap shot
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Re: Re: This is going to sound like a cheap shot
Since the 19th century, governments have used the budding discipline of psychology to incarcerate dissidents.
The cheap shot above is obviously politically motivated, bearing no relationship to either the REAL Michael's reality nor mine, nor, hopefully, anyone's.
Should we conspire to theorize, I submit that the shot is cheap due to constraints of budget sequestration. Whosenose? Doubtless some apologist for or within some administration.
Oh, what a trail of logic am I!
"his virtues
Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked new-born babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven's cherubim horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye. . ."
Aye! Say I. Leave your guns off him , ye sightless drones!
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Questioning
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/01/edward-snowden-letter-president-ecuador
It is written in the same arble-garble that the "Untied States have" statement was written in.
It also uses the non-American word "programme." It does say it was translated from Spanish... however, shouldn't we confirm that Snowden speaks spanish before assigning this letter to him? Even if he did speak a second language, why would he not write in English?
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Re: Questioning
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Re: Re: Questioning
Ordinarily, I would see how this might not be an issue. We could just assume it was prepared for him... but in light of the topic of this post, which suggests someone is ghost-writing statements purportedly from Mr. Snowden, I think it raises a legitimate question.
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Ed Snowden´s grammar
I feel that Masnick has grossly over dramatized the title of this short article. His father even doubts that we believe Ed is capable of writing so well and confirms Ed´s impressive intelligence. He may have been provoked by the intervention of the ridiculous "the english,-do-you-speak-it... dept". The insignificant grammar "problem" hardly justifies the article in the first place. In any event if Wikileaks does the publishing can we not accept that UK English is used?
The NSA must be smiling. We are all forgetting the fact that Snowden is in Moscow and that his precious work must continue at all cost.
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Sounds vaguely vague
It appears more like Wikileaks/Julian Assange's fine hand on the pen, and no two ways about it.
As for Ed's father writing TechDirt, I wonder why he would do that when he knows fully well that he could have gone to any media outlet to explain the letter.
Is he that savvy? Does he read all the technical forums on the Internet?
Rather doubt it, because for all of this time, he's been silent about his son and the problems he's been through.
However, if you are Edward Snowden's father, you should be aware that Techdirt has been unrelenting in its' coverage of your son's case and the issues that he brought out into the open.
It would require a bit more politeness on your part to realize that we're not the enemy here just for questioning the authenticity of the message.
We're on your side.
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Re: Sounds vaguely vague
“I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.”
——Treebeard
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Re: Sounds vaguely vague
Although a bit mixed in connotation, as Ed sez he did what he did 'cuz of the the "bloody instructions" we teach ourselves, and Pappy Snowden just released a supportive letter to Eddie, without such stabs as "undeserving" as in the above comment, I present to you some Queen's English, a couple years back (Seems I'se been quoting Macbeth a whole lot lately):
"If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly. If th' assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch,
With his surcease, success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all -- here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'd jump the life to come.
But in these cases
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague th' inventor:
this even-handed justice
Commends th' ingredients of our poison'd chalice
To our own lips.
He's here in double trust:
First, as I am his kinsman and his subject,
Strong both against the deed; then, as his host,
Who should against his murderer shut the door,
Not bear the knife myself."
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Oh MY GOD
Because of "has" instead of "have", you guys are SO DESPERATE, it's also NOT a right to seek asylum, and he gave up his rights after stealing documents, releasing them and running away. Running to China the Russia !!!!
And Ecudador is right, you cannot be given asylum unless you can get of that Country's territory and he cant do that. It's also clear he has been working with Wikileaks, mock them in the past or not, or are you saying he did not receive travel documents enabling him to fly to Russia?
One thing is VERY CLEAR, Snowden is no intellectual giant he's done a really poor job at what he proposed to do, he even failed to provide any real evidence of wrong doings.
He is getting increasingly desperate, and trying to trash the US and it's Government is not doing him any favours, especially when he finally works out the US is probably he's best hope for actual justice.
Snowden is where he is now, and in the position he is now for 2 reasons, 1) he's quite stupid, and did not think this through at all.
2) he has allowed himself to become a pawn for the gain of others (and so far, NOT the US). His actions and the US's response to them are making the US LOOK BETTER every day, and making Snowden LOOK WORSE every day.
Masnick your paranoia is rubbing off on your fellow cultists, you really do need to break out the tin hats, if you have not already done so.
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Re: Oh MY GOD
Occupy Washington.
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Re: Oh MY GOD
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Re: Re: Oh MY GOD
The good news is that the above initiative is destined to be nothing short of a thoroughly complete failure and laughingstock.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZd_YyFzPD0
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In fact it seems to me that the most likely scenario where he is alive is if the FSB is holding him, and can make him write whatever letter they want.
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confirming style
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Seemed off when I first read it
It seemed overlly dramatic and filled with vitrol.
Here is a link to the Q&A
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/edward-snowden-nsa-files-whistleblower
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I think you're on to something big here.
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Re:
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This claim, I am guessing, is from a high-level person in the government who is not computer literate. We all know all you need is a mess of flash memory and a couple portable hard drives. If you use the "cloud", you could have all the storage you need if you have a way to access it. So why the preposterous claim about hauling around laptops... again, my guess is this someone is trying to bias the media and the public against Mr. Snowden, by implying he's shopping a bunch of stolen computers and their contents.
I don't know about you folks, but my "Bullshit Detector" (Trademark ACME Equip. Co.) has been pegging on the bullshit side whenever I hear news-people, Gov't spokespeople or anyone else trying to smear Mr. Snowden. The former Ambassador and his lovely wife are correct. The system is out of control.
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The Nazis won?
National security measures are now going to be decided by Grammar?
I'm a pedantic son-of-a-bitchin' American but even I wouldn't bother sayin' "the United States of American has been a leader of civil rights." I'd often say simply "America has been abandoning various civil rights concepts" and my norm is "The U.S. government has been a fine play to grow up, but I don't think I want to live here any more."
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date
Not saying this is fake. I suspect it went through some filters.
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Ed Snowden
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