Privacy Is A Part Of Civilized Society: There's No Defense For Having It Taken By Force
from the privacy-in-the-modern-era dept
I've been having some interesting discussions about privacy lately, because it's a topic that is a bit more complex than a lot of people are willing to admit. Pretty much every choice you make in life is about tradeoffs, and that applies to privacy as well. Leaving your home and walking down the street is a form of a "tradeoff" in that when you go outside, other people can see you, and that, in some ways, is a "violation" of your privacy. But most of us determine that going out in public is worth it, because there are lots of benefits to being able to leave your house, while there are very few negatives to having someone see you on the street. The same is true, in many ways, online. There are situations in which we find the sharing of information to be much more valuable than the costs. It's why people sign up for online services. They know they're giving up some information and "privacy," but the value of the service they get back is considered worth it. We can quibble over whether or not people can accurately measure the costs and benefits of those tradeoffs, and I think that's an important and valuable discussion to have, but the idea of "absolute" privacy is crazy. You can do that, but the tradeoff is you don't go outside and you don't use the internet. Good luck with that.The real problem tends to come in when the privacy violations are done in ways that were not a part of the bargain. I may choose to give a company some level of access to my email, because I value the result. But if I then find out that they're doing much more than promised with it, or more seriously, that a third party, such as the government, is digging into that same info, just because they can, that's quite different. That wasn't part of the tradeoff deal that I made.
Tim Bray has an interesting article touching on this subject, over at Medium, in which he notes that privacy is a part of a civilized society, and that we shouldn't have to defend the basic concept of privacy from those who seek to take it by force. He isn't talking so much about the tradeoffs, but rather what happens when there are no tradeoffs at all, and the government just decides that it can take away your privacy because it can:
Privacy doesn't need any more justification. It's a quality-of-life thing and needs no further defense. We and generations of ancestors have worked hard to build a civilized society and one of the rewards is that often, we can relax and just be our private selves. So we should resist anyone who wants to take that away.He further points out that the real problem is that law enforcement always has and almost always will abuse their power to violate your privacy without any control or benefit to you:
The public servants who are doing the watching are, at the end of the day, people. Mostly honorable and honest; but some proportion will always be crooked or insane or just bad people; no higher than in the general population, but never zero. I don't think Canada, where I live, is worse than anywhere else, but we see a pretty steady flow of police brutality and corruption stories. It's a fact of life.And this is where the tradeoffs come back into play. When I choose to give up some level of privacy, I have some control over the situation, and that's a form of a check and balance. I can choose to limit how I use the services or what I share. That's not true when the government just goes digging and pulls out whatever it wants. And then they can abuse it, often with impunity.
Given this, it's unreasonable to give people the power to spy on us without factoring in checks and balances to keep the rogues among them from wreaking havoc.
I think it's a little too simple that we should be able to say across the board "I don't want to be watched," because there are lots of situations where we agree to be in public. But when it becomes a forced observation, and there's no control, then there are serious problems.
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Filed Under: force, privacy, surveillance, trade-offs, voluntary
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So, tell me how to avoid Google's "because it can" invasions.
ANY SYSTEM, Mike? Or are Google and Facebook exceptions to your own statement 'cause they're "voluntary" and only trying to get money put their way for advertising?
NOPE, you CAN'T neatly segregate spying: it's ALL bad.
Our privacy is simply going to be monetized, and every possible second of attention diverted to commercial interests nagging to buy junk, MUCH more intrusive than gov't. Everywhere you turn will be flashing advertisements targeted at YOU, and right past the "creepy line" with gadgets that produce sound IN your head, and brain implants soon as practical, according to Eric Schmidt. Already when I use the web with javascript turned on and no ad blocking, it's horrifying enough.
When you think surveillance or spying or snooping, think Google!
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Re: So, tell me how to avoid Google's "because it can" invasions.
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Re: Re: Re: So, tell me how to avoid Google's "because it can" invasions.
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Re: Re: So, tell me how to avoid Google's "because it can" invasions.
YaCy is an easy distributed(P2P) search engine, or you can use Startpage which serves as a proxy between you and Google servers.
Have you visite PRISM Break?
Lots and lots of tools to bypass Google.
You can replace Android for Cyanogenmod
For searches you can use DuckDuckGo or others.
Want email services?
Bitmessage
But we told you this already, but somehow you are unable to use other tools, are you magnetic linked to Google services or something?
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Re: Re: Re: So, tell me how to avoid Google's "because it can" invasions.
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That's an extreme example but the same general principle holds true. The political process is more prone to coercion if those in power can see who supports them and who doesn't.
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Here's the amounts of inequality in America
And what is happening is that people need to vote for a good candidate that represents their interests. The vote would undo some of the damage as we saw in the 1930s when the public had more power in politics.
But right now, we have an aristocracy of the top 5% who have a LOT of money from our system. So we need our democracy back or else we lose.
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I'm a bigger fan of Duverger's Law and people not losing the right to vote when they are convicted of a felony. I just don't see how a secret ballot helps anyone.
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This is why they are able to rule everyone.
So either you create the means to organize people in a chaotic environment or you make everyone less dependent on the government.
There are no other options, you either organize and write your own laws or you create the means to not depend on the people who use and abuse you.
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I've actually found myself in the somewhat bizarre position of receiving emails from campaigns on both sides of a certain hotly-contested political race recently, both urgently asking me to donate to their candidate's campaign, because (for completely unrelated reasons) I've done things to support both conservative and liberal political causes in the past, that apparently ended up with me getting added to some mailing lists.
I pity the fool who tries to divine how I'm going to vote based on information like that, though...
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But that is not what those people in the NSA want to do, they are not predicting behavior they want to deanonymize people and track them, that is very much possible with current tech.
PDF: Robust De-anonymization of Large Sparse Datasets by Arvind Narayanan and Vitaly Shmatikov
Is like putting a GPS collar on your cat, you can see where it has been and some times even make some good guesses about his habits like were all those dead things are coming from, where are his hunting grounds.
In a sense the NSA spying is the government studying you and you habits, like researchers observe wild animals in Africa.
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Agreed. Remember Target predicting a girl was pregnant? That was almost 2 years ago. I'm sure NSA had that kind of stuff well before Target, and far better predictive capacity now.
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That's quite an assertion, and with nothing to back it up. How is other people being able to see you when you're out in public in any way a violation of your privacy?
It's obviously ridiculous to even say that, but the problem here is that the only way to define "violation of privacy" is by first defining privacy, and the only meaningful way to define privacy is the definition that Techdirt has explicitly rejected: privacy is about having something to hide that you don't want shared with the public.
This does not mean that it's a bad thing. If I buy something online, I use encryption to make the transaction private--even though whatever I'm buying is something completely legitimate that I wouldn't be ashamed of people knowing I had bought--because the transaction involves financial details that I don't want other people getting ahold of. Obviously, that's something I want to hide.
When I get dressed in the morning, I do so in the privacy of my own apartment, and not out in public, because of basic decency and not wanting to get arrested. I don't see my body as anything to be ashamed of, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't still be hidden from the world in general as part of simply behaving like a civilized person. So again, privacy.
I have plenty of things to hide in my day-to-day life. We all do. That doesn't mean that they're illegitimate or shameful or illegal; just that they're private. But the opening of this article shows just how silly of a road you end up on when you trying to separate the two concepts.
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Can you point out where Techdirt has said or implied such a thing? I've been a member for about 3 years now, give or take a few months, and I can't remember Mike or any TD staff saying anything like that.
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Privacy is more like simply the ability to avoid being observed in general.
You are giving up some privacy to go outside. It is not a VIOLATION of your privacy.
Any business conducted from our personal homes, whether it be using the internet, working, watching cat videos, or writing dissertations are considered private, as we don't expect to be observed donig these things at home.
It has nothing to do with WANTING something hidden, its that we are in an area where we arent being observed, and when we are observed, or people break into our "private places" to see what we've done, that is a violation of our privacy.
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In society, trust is all we have.
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What if I happen to feel proud of my work with specific political causes/groups that advocate Libertarianism or anarchy or any legal-yet-‘weird’ political views, but I don’t want the government to track me based on that work and use that information against me? Why don’t I deserve the right to assemble a group of people for a perfectly legal purpose without the government using that as a reason to think I’ve somehow become an ‘enemy of the state’?
The next time you think of piracy, think about the people who don’t have ‘anything to hide’ but don’t think they shouldn’t have to ‘hide’ to avoid surveillance (government or otherwise).
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Maybe you missed the phrase "in some ways", and the quotes around "violation"?
Let me translate. Some people might, but not necessarily do, view knowledge of their presence among the general population (including when and with whom) as a violation of privacy, for some definition of privacy that might not be held by the majority of people.
OK, that's too abstract. How about a concrete example? Some celebrities do indeed protect themselves from the paparazzi when going into public places, and have stated that being unmasked has adversely impacted their private lives.
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They are altering the deal. Pray they do not alter it any further.
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the likes of Hayden, Clapper and Alexander should be up on charges for what the have done! they have totally ignored laws and reinterpreted others, just to suit themselves, what they wanted to do and the situations in hand! no one else would ever have been allowed to ignore or misuse the law in these ways! using the excuses they have and still are, is disgraceful! it literally pisses on what they purport to hold so dear, the law and the protection of the nation in which they live and their fellow citizens!!
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Remember that the goal of the Spanish Inqusition was to save man's souls. Justification for any action on such a noble cause.
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For some bizarre reason, they're remembered as villains today, but do a bit of research, have a look at what they actually did, and you'll probably find that you'd rather have the Spanish Inquisition than a lot of what passes for a modern legal system these days!
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Trade Off = Taxation
That's an important issue for sure -- one important enough to have started the American Revolution -- but I don't think that's the harm people are thinking of when the NSA spies on them. For example, the CIA spends all sorts of taxpayer money on secret gadgets, many of which probably have questionable benefits for national security. But that doesn't invite the same type of outrage that Snowden's revelations did.
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Re: Trade Off = Taxation
I pay for services with companies. I expect the business conducted between me and those I pay for services to be kept private and confidential. I don't expect them to pass along every piece of information they have on me to the government. If they do, I don't do business with them anymore and fore-go those services.
If the government continues to use my tax dollars to spy on me, perhaps I don't work as much and reduce the amount I pay in taxes.
Does anyone not see how society starts to breakdown because of these revelations?
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There's a third factor
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Information Wants to Be Free
We usually use that phrase in the context of paywalls or DRM. But it's absolutely relevant here as well. Even if we didn't explicitly bargain for the NSA to see our private information (much as content holders don't bargain for their content to be shared outside of the original licensee), anything we put on the Internet can and will make its way out to them if they truly want to see it -- if not be the NSA, then surely by a foreign government which owes us even less accountability than the NSA (if such a thing is possible).
That doesn't me we have to condone domestic spying, much as we can recognize piracy happens without condoning it. But it does suggest that attempts to keep information private are a temporary stop-gap at best.
I'd argue that a better place to draw the line is not "what does the government know?" but rather "what can the government do with what it knows?". It's hard to control the flow of information, but it is (somewhat) easier to recognize and prevent certain conduct. I'm not sure what those conduct-based lines would be, but the DEA's prosecution of drug-based offenses based on NSA intel definitely fall on the wrong side. Privacy is a part of civilized society -- but not all aspects of civilization can be legislated. IMHO, our efforts are probably better directed at identifying specific harmful acts we want the government to refrain from, rather than a blanket ban on domestic surveillance.
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Re: Information Wants to Be Free
Information wants to be free is in regards to things like research and papers, things that can have a notable impact (environmental studies, research on political regimes, research on), items with a tangible PUBLIC benefit.
Our PERSONAL information, unless we knowingly give it out for use in some kind of study, is NOT information that "wants to be free."
Putting our information on the internet is not the same as putting it publicly on the internet. Mentioning on a forum or site that it's my birthday means that people can find it.
Putting in my birthday to register a bank account or anything similar for purposes of identification is not information that has no expectation of privacy.
The government can do anything it wants with what it knows, which is why we are concerned about what it does know.
The fact we have to legislate things considered common sense is an issue, the real problem is there is already legislation that disallows things, but double speak and rule twisting allows people to use "loopholes". If we were more willing to punish for loophole infractions, people would be less likely to abuse the rules and this issue wouldn't have happened.
Too much "letter of the law" rather than the "spirit of the law" exists today.
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Re: Re: Information Wants to Be Free
YOU (and I) personally don't want such information to be free, but it happens. Information wants to be free is not a normative statement about what should happen but what does happen.
A substantial amount of the information that triggers the Streisand effect is "personal", yet we see how well efforts to control that go.
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Re: Information Wants to Be Free
Specific harmful act to refrain from: using any forceful, coercive, illegal or dishonest method, including [impersonation, exploiting code vulnerabilities, etc], to gather information when the method, locations to be searched and items to be searched for are not specifically enumerated under a valid warrant.
Specific harmful act to refrain from: secret warrants or any warrant that cannot be properly contested in an adversarial manner (under the normal constraint that all evidence so gathered or the new constraint that all evidence gathered based on information so obtained will be rendered inadmissible should the warrant be defeated).
A blanket ban on domestic surveillance is really only a half-measure.
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Re: Information Wants to Be Free
It might be wasted type but you're aware that prior to the NSA being directed to subvert the order that the order was no domestic surveillance, correct?
What's different now? I mean what's really different?
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Re: Re: Information Wants to Be Free
Yes, but it didn't work. And there's no easy way to enforce it. Or know when it's being violated.
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Who controls us...
No. This is just wrong.
There will *always* be more of these people in positions of 'authority' than in the general population. Those who live to control their fellows gravitate to such positions.
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When you look at it and the way it has been handled, Obama stated he would welcome a debate on this yet everything that has been done, shows just the opposite. They are doing everything in their power to prevent such from occurring.
It seems that every entity from the police on up, want to violate that personal privacy for their own gain. It's no longer about trust. That was shattered some time ago when the public learned that this stealing of privacy has not only been going on a long time but it has been a matter of collusion between most of the branches of government to allow it and keep it hidden from the public at the same time.
This is not how you inspire trust when you seek it and not how you keep it. Right now, that trust isn't going to happen without major changes starting with the charging of both Alexander and Clapper with illegal acts.
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No.
It's not the end of civilization, it's only the end of liberty for those who don't have access to the data.
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Not so Hard
It is actually simpler than you make it seem; the complication exists only in your discussion of it, which appears to be a tortuous attempt to reconcile it with your political dogma.
"The real problem tends to come in when the privacy violations are done in ways that were not a part of the bargain."
That's a simple, reasonable position. So, if I send email to you, what bargain exists between me and Google with regard to information about me in that email?
I can't choose what email service the people I need or want to communicate with use. I can't enter in to a bargain with the provider of that service.
It is simple, if you are not trying to create a spurious distinction between government and corporate snooping.
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