Lawyer For Cop Charged In Beating Death Of Homeless Man Claims Officer Didn't Use ENOUGH Force
from the what,-they-didn't-kill-him-FAST-enough? dept
The trial for two of the three Fullerton police officers charged in the beating death of mentally ill homeless man, Kelly Thomas, has begun. Manuel Ramos, the officer who first approached Kelly Thomas and delivered most of the damage, is facing charges of second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. Officer Jay Ciccinelli, who arrived on the scene moments later, is facing charges of involuntary manslaughter and use of excessive force.
Ramos' lawyer, John Barnett, sought to have charges against his client dropped last year, claiming the 10-minute-long ordeal that Thomas suffered through before lapsing into a coma (first, attempting to tell officers he couldn't breathe and, towards the end, crying out for his father) was a direct result of Thomas' reluctance to be further hassled by the officer.
When a "recalcitrant" Thomas did not comply, Ramos was entitled to use force and the threat of force to complete his arrest, Barnett contended in his 80-page motion.The recording shows Ramos relied almost exclusively on "force" rather than the "threat of force." As mentioned earlier, Ramos approached a seated Thomas before the beating commenced and said, "You see these fists? They are getting ready to fuck you up." That, I suppose, would be considered a "threat of force." Ramos wasn't kidding. His fists, along with his nightstick and additional abuse from a handful of other officers, completely "fucked up" Kelly Thomas, leaving him in an irreversible coma. Jay Cicinelli contributed in his own way, beating Thomas' face with the butt end of his Taser. (Cicinelli is captured on Ramos' mic stating that he "smashed [Thomas'] face to hell.")
"Rather than use actual force, Officer Ramos employed a lawful, conditional threat, to use force," he wrote. "The death of Kelly Thomas was not the natural and probable consequence of that lawful threat."
[You can go to this link to see a picture taken by Thomas' father after his son's arrival at the hospital -- but we warn you that it's gruesome.]
There's really no questioning what happened. Security camera footage, synched to Ramos' mic, paints a brutally clear picture of how much Thomas went through before his body and mind gave out. Even the coroner's report notes the death wasn't accidental, listing "mechanical suppression of the thorax" as the cause of death. [The recording is 33 minutes long. The "altercation" begins about 15 minutes in. Five minutes later, there are six officers restraining Thomas. Warning: video, especially Thomas' anguished screams, is Not Safe For Life.]
John Barnett is still defending Officer Ramos. He's decided to top his earlier claims that the officer's actions were lawful and appropriate.
Ramos’ attorney… told jurors that the officers who beat Thomas on a summer night in 2011 not only didn’t use excessive force in the incident, they “weren’t using enough force.”Watch that tape again (or for the first time) and see whether it appears the cops are "losing the battle." Thomas, who weighed 135 pounds, was subdued by six Fullerton officers. The recording clearly captures him telling officers he can't breathe. Thomas was homeless and suffered from schizophrenia. While he wasn't cooperative with Ramos' instructions before he was beaten, he was still pretty far from being a threat. Last year, Barnett claimed the force was "appropriate." Now, he claims it was "too little." Officer Ramos apparently has no idea how to deploy an appropriate amount of force, despite his training.
The officers were forced to call for backup because they could not subdue an out-of-control Thomas, John Barnett said. “They’re losing the fight,” Barnett said.
Barnett continues:
“This case is not about a homeless, helpless, harmless mentally ill guy, this case is about a man who made choices in his life, bad choices that led to his tragic death,” Barnett said.No one's arrest should end in death -- no matter what "choices" they've made -- not when six officers are looking to control one person. And for Barnett to claim that somehow choices the mentally ill Thomas made earlier in his life contributed to his death is not only disingenuous, it's genuinely sickening. If that's the case, then bad choices made by Officers Ramos and Cicinelli in their lives led to them being charged with manslaughter and murder.
This isn't about Kelly Thomas' life choices. This is about the choices made by a handful of officers -- choices that resulted in the death of a man whose life, what there was of it, came to a sudden halt because he ran into Officer Ramos and his backup.
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Filed Under: fullerton, jay ciccinelli, john barnett, kelly thomas, manuel ramos, police brutality, police violence
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And police wonder why...
Gee, maybe if the cops stopped protecting jackwagons such as these, we could trust them again.
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Re: And police wonder why...
SSC, normally I'd agree with you, and there is a lot of jackwagon protecting, but I am having a problem finding cops who *are* protecting these two. They were fired from their jobs for this incident and are being prosecuted for their alleged crime (only saying alleged because they have to be convicted, as our legal system is innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence does appear pretty damning.)
His defense lawyer is protecting him, but if the defense lawyer wasn't, they wouldn't be doing their job. Like it or not, everyone should get their due process. Hopefully, based on the evidence, Ramos' and Ciccinelli's due process ends up with them in jail, but at least they are out from behind the shield.
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In an ideal world, this would mean that the attorneys should recuse themselves in the face of the evidence and advise their client to plead guilty. The fact that these jackwagon's haven't is testament to their...well, it's either stupidity or insanity.
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Re: Re: Re: And police wonder why...
Like cops, lawyers suffer from the same poor image of lack of ethics. Just ask Steel and Hansmeier. I don't think most lawyers are purposefully unethical, it is just that a subset of them make it difficult for everyone else.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly_Thomas_(beating_victim)#Aftermath
See about halfway down:
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The three police officers involved in the incident, who have been fired, failed to mention the use of force in their report? The six cops involved were removed from their jobs; the police chief left his job after being a douche; and a couple officers showed support by raising money for the defense. I am not sure how this shows there is a conspiracy to cover up or protect them from prosecution IN THIS CASE.
I am not standing up for the police abuses, especially in the case where cops use their authority to rape, pillage, and murder without fear of reprisal, but I am failing to see how this particular case fits. I don't like the police state, where cops discharge firearms because they think someone might be trying to ram their car, and I think that there is far too little prosecution of bad officers, but in this case, justice will hopefully be served.
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It's more of a hypothetical situation than an assumption: "Even if you are a truly worthless scumbag... a lawyer will defend you, stretching their mind to invent rationale for your heinous criminal actions." He's not saying anyone in particular is a worthless scumbag, or guilty of any crimes. He's saying in the case of a worthless scumbag guilty of heinous criminal actions, a lawyer will still be willing to take the job.
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Re: Re: Re: And police wonder why...
A lawyer might but certainly not all. Remember Barnardo/Holmolka, serial killer/rapists'? The defense lawyer had the videos of the rapes in his possession for a year before anyone else knew about them. I don't recall him being charged with obstructing justice.
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Furthermore prosecutors are the same!! They protect the cops because they rely on them for info to put people away! It's all a corrupt system!
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Lawyer: "He's not dead...
...he's pining for the fjords.
...he's stunned!
...until he's Zestfully dead"
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as for this lawyer, he needs to be held on similar charges as well. he is trying to aid and abet a person to get away with murder and is, therefore, in my opinion, not trying to just defend the officer but become an accomplice! disgraceful way for someone to behave is supposed to believe in the law!
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Perhaps for the time being, but there will come a day...
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Prosecuting defense attorneys for vigorously defending their clients is a horrible, horrible idea.
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Cuz, y'know, he hates cops.
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No.
You yourslef might have the power to go read something else. And I myself might have the power to go read something else. And pretty much everyone else might have the power to go read something else…
But he doesn't have that power. Doesn't have it in him. He can't do it. He's pretty much powerless.
Kind of pathetic, really.
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I mean, in your zeal to attack anyone 'maligning' the cops, you do realize that your comment here is basically defending a gang of 6 cops who beat a homeless man to death, on camera no less, right?
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I'm pointing out that Tim Cushing hates cops, and posts bad cop stories on a tech blog.
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As it is, day after day we've got stories of ahole cops, enough to create a bad cop blog.
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Only a bad cop would defend the actions of other bad cops like you are.
Absolutely disgusting. You are part of the problem
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I'm pointing out how the loser Tim Cushing's disdain for the police and authority is laughably transparent.
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Why do you seem to imply that it's a new thing for the cops to beat people to death?
The cops haven't changed. They haven't changed one bit. This has been going down for a long, long time. The only thing that's new is that the video is not only recording the violence, but also now the video is being seen by a wider audience.
An equally reasonable lesson might be that the authorities have to do a better job of seizing video and keeping it off the internet.
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Seems that some people haven't grown out of giving swirlies and sucking up to the gym teacher.
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PUBLIC service, not public abuse
If the officer would have shown common sense and "public service" attitude, this might not have happened...
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And frankly, a lot of cops seem to be going out of their way be get people to hate them individually and as a group. In a civilised society that's newsworthy.
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If those two thought the mean streets of Fullerton were tough...
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Wrong video?
Seriously, I had to do a little reading to find what this guy was charged with - nothing, apparently, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Re: Wrong video?
He was dead before there was even time to charge him with anything.
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I hope these cops go to prison
I hope they're beaten
I hope they're raped
Every day, day after day after day after day
I hope they live a long time
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I also don't think it's so terrible the defense lawyer is putting the victim on trial. It feels reprehensible, but if a 100% account of the events is in evidence, it's all you have left to do, and I don't think it's all that uncommon. Basically, he has to take the only defense left to him.
For the record, I hope none of the officers on trial ever see the light of day again, and any officers present at that scene should be fired immediately, if they haven't been already.
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Successful lawyers aren't paid to make losing arguments. A good lawyer is paid to pursuade people.
If the lawyer isn't making a pursuasive argument, then he's fucking up.
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This sort of thing only sounds ridiculous until you realize George Zimmerman was acquitted because his mom said it sounded like he was the one screaming on the phone.
Cases sometimes hinge on funny things, and in all likelihood, the lawyer will just try to string things out a bit and offer a blustery defense to get a better plea deal for his clients.
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Rodney King Similarities
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Yes there are some very good cops, but they are the exception not the rule and it is accepted by almost all superiors that are under the believe that "zero tolerance" is better than a soft image, probably because others citizens complain that police should be very though against criminals, without realizing that if you are not blue you are the criminal.
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My heart pours out the tears that I cry for this man....
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You know, no matter how many times I read that, I'm not reading a *conditional* threat. That's an *imminent* threat.
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I hope the family of the deceased has justice served to them, and these armed thugs spend a majority of their life behind bars.
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