Obama Plans Cosmetic Surveillance Changes After All, Will Set Up Pretend Fight Over NSLs
from the theatrical-reforms dept
Leaks coming out of the Obama administration suggest that the President is preparing mostly cosmetic changes to the intelligence community, following the recommendations from the intelligence task force -- which were much stronger than many expected. The reports suggest things like putting a public advocate to represent the public's views in certain cases before the FISC. This has been talked about for a while, and was the main concession plenty of people had been expecting anyway. That's hardly anything big.The article talks about two other potential reforms. The first is shifting the holding of phone call metadata from the NSA to the phone companies, allowing the NSA to still search through it after getting a court order. While this may be a marginal improvement, it still has tremendous problems. It will almost certainly come with some sort of data retention law -- something that the feds have wanted for ages, and which civil liberties activists have been fighting against for years. Companies shouldn't be required to hang on to data they don't need, especially if getting rid of it can better protect their users' privacy. Furthermore, while not letting the NSA hang onto the data is a good thing, there is a reasonable concern that if the telcos are hanging onto the data themselves, that they, too, might do bad things with it, with little to no oversight.
However, most of the article from the LA Times focuses on National Security Letter (NSL) reform. We've written about those for years. NSLs are the way that the FBI can demand information from companies without any judicial review at all and, even more insane, with a complete gag order that prevents the recipient from telling anyone (including, at times, your lawyer). The FBI has an incredibly long history of "serious misuse" of NSLs, and has shown little to no interest in fixing the process. Nearly a year ago, a court actually ruled them unconstitutional, but there's an ongoing appeals process that will take quite a bit of time.
However, as the article notes, the DOJ/FBI and other surveillance maximalists are all horrified by the idea that Obama might actually require judicial approval of NSLs, for all but "emergency" situations. What this sounds like is that the President may suggest something along those lines, there will be a well coordinated press attack from surveillance hawks freaking out about the danger this puts us all in... and then he'll back down on that one point. And we'll be left with... basically nothing, but the President will go around insisting that he reformed the intelligence community, while everything more or less stays the same.
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Filed Under: barack obama, fisa court, fisc, national security letters, nsa, nsl, public advocate, reform, surveillance
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Wrong AC @ #1: Next step, MORE surveillance.
This is SO expected that Mike can't even rally to "this isn't surprising"!
Just interesting view you may have missed and won't get from here:
Blame Silicon Valley for the NSA's data slurp... and what to do about it
Hive mind gloop and legal sophistry paved the way
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/12/31/blame_silicon_valley_for_the_nsas_data_slurp_and_what_to_ do_about_it/
So long as "The Market" (if not NSA directly) rewards Google for spying, do you expect it to do LESS of it?
09:25:59[k-626-5]
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Bring in a data retention law and that stops and privacy/security minded people go offshore.
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PATHETIC
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Re:
Worst of all are those who fanatically called for his impeachment over non-issues like Benghazi or for not remotely illegal stuff like the Affordable Care Act ignore enough real issues that make Richard Nixon look like a choir boy approve of this Orwellian shit because terrorists are their excuse for everything since they can't use the Soviet Union anymore on account of their fatal case of non-existence.
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Backdoor searches not affected
If they get a court order allowing them to do a 3-hop query on a legitimate target (perhaps sucking in data from 20% of all US citizens), they can still go back and do all the follow-up data-mining they want on that sucked up data without having to go to any court.
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The corporate president
Obama does give nice speeches though. That's something, right?
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Re: Wrong AC @ #1: Next step, MORE surveillance.
I'm surprised by the characterization given to the EFF, I've considered them to be on our side in this fight, but some more skepticism might be healthy towards them.
I like the point about owning our data, and agree that is one of the biggest underlying issues going on in this "debate." Moving forward, hopefully after some progress, we can address that with more determination. The idea of "the cloud" has always been very off-putting to me, and now we're starting to have some clear evidence of why (although I'm sure for people such as yourself, the evidence has been clear all along).
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Re: The corporate president
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No proposal is necessary -- it's already determined by the Constitution. Hello, President Biden.
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If I had to choose, I would prefer the NSA keep the data rather than have a data retention law.
Also, as much as it pains me to say so, I would prefer the NSA keep the data rather than have the telecoms keep it. The telecoms have absolutely no problem giving the government as much access tot heir records as they ask for anyway, and if the telecoms have it, then they themselves will "monetize" it -- effectively doubling the amount of spying going on.
I disagree with Mike on this point. It wouldn't be a marginal improvement. It would be an unambiguous step backwards.
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Re: The corporate president
That's an odd disclaimer, since Obama is not a liberal.
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HE is the traitor, betraying this country and its value. Kick him out of office.
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The fact is their data collection is ILLEGAL. The 4th amendment says so: no SEIZURES without probable cause! So now they want to do it in a more "legal" way, even though we could all just say HELL NO, to all of their data collection, and they'd have to obey, since the way they're doing it now is ILLEGAL!
Allowing them to get away with this "improvement" won't make your data any safer, but it would put their data collection from illegal to legal, which is what they want, so next time they abuse their power with that data on you, and go in fishing expeditions with that data, they can just say it's legal, so nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Re: Wrong AC @ #1: Next step, MORE surveillance.
a) fine the company a bajillion dollars
b) have the SEC crack down on the company
c) just arrest the poor low level guy who told them no
While I agree that some companies have been voluntarily working with the NSA, many don't have a choice.
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Impeach the first black president??? What are you? Racist?
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The remaining hopes are to be pinned on congress which isn't such a great thing since they can't even get together to do anything or waiting till election time when all these corporations decide who they will give money to and who they won't based on how much damage all this NSA spying has done their companies.
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Re: Re: Wrong AC @ #1: Next step, MORE surveillance.
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We as American citizens, can no longer depend on the US government being functional organization that represents the well being of the American public.
I'm viewing the government more and more as a domestic enemy of the people. I think Congresses approval rating is at 13% last I checked. That seems to indicate I'm not alone in my view.
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Re: Re:
I disagree with Mike on this point. It wouldn't be a marginal improvement. It would be an unambiguous step backwards.
I can see your point. The one thing favoring keeping it out of the NSA's hands is that at least with the companies keeping it, there is *someone* who can step in and protest. Though, you're correct that it might be unlikely (extremely unlikely) that they would do so. Just giving the data to the NSA means they can then do whatever they want with it and no one ever knows.
But, basically, I think we both agree that both solutions suck.
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On NSA "outsourcing" . . .
there is a reasonable concern that if the telcos are hanging onto the data themselves, that they, too, might do bad things with it, with little to no oversight
But then wouldn't we have introduced 10,000 of regular telco Joes with eyeballs, a conscience & perhaps a whistle to blow ...? I mean, I assume a corporate employee isn't as (il)legally coerced into silence as these gov't secret-keepers within the NSA.
If they get a court order allowing them to do a 3-hop query on a legitimate target (perhaps sucking in data from 20% of all US citizens), they can still go back and do all the follow-up data-mining they want on that sucked up data without having to go to any court.
Again, maybe I'm not sufficiently paranoid, but doesn't an employee need APPROVAL to go on each fishing expedition (?) even when the body of water is well known to be sitting here or there. To switch metaphors, even if a gallery has amassed an impressive collection of artworks we must assume its employees can't simply help themselves to the priceless artefacts being keep (not on the walls but) in storage under lock and key.
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Who here thinks that we will see something similar play out in the surveillance theater? A reform is proposed, the surveillance lobby tries to neuter it and succeeds in taking out what it considers the most dangerous parts of it, but there is a small change and then they proceed to ramp up the abuse of the legal exploits they have used so far the public gets even more outraged as the price of the exploits becomes clearer and a new set of reforms is proposed that the surveillance lobby find harder to neuter this time around. Rinse and repeat until the legal side of things is a lot more acceptable to the public.
With all that in mind I eagerly await the Prenda of the surveillance industry.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Biden's in bed with the **AAs and Clinton's in bed with Big Ag and Monsanto.
So much for the liberals. In the red corner there's more crazy than you can shake an AR-15 at. We really need the third parties to step forward to fill the gap, but I'm skeptical that'll happen as the moderates we actually need to run the country have joined the main parties in the hope of getting elected one day... and been corrupted by the system.
We need to stop waiting for someone else to discuss the third parties and their policies, and start doing it ourselves, comparing and contrasting them so we can make the best and most informed choices. The only reason we have a two-party state and no real choice is because we are willing to put up with the situation we've got.
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Re: Re: Re: Wrong AC @ #1: Next step, MORE surveillance.
Meanwhile, they bitch, whine, and throw tantrums in an effort to prevent him from achieving anything while in office and in the hope of making their own candidate look better by comparison. Well, they gave us Gordon Gekko last time. Will he run again or have they got someone equally obnoxious waiting in the wings? One thing is certain; during the last election, they changed the rules to keep Ron Paul from even getting a sniff of a chance at being nominated, and the Tea Party still have a significant say in how things are run. Prediction: expect a similar candidate next time unless a way is found to change the rules back.
I'm not a fan of Ron Paul, but that was a rotten way to treat him and the way it was done was unfair.
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Re: Re: The corporate president
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Re: Re: The corporate president
Were you given a chance to vote on Obamacare? Were any of the American people? What, in your opinion, IS "democracy all about"?
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Re: Re: The corporate president
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Re: Re: Re: The corporate president
But, really, he's a corporatist.
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Our voting system also virtually guarantees it.
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Re: Re: Re: The corporate president
Were you thinking the US is a direct democracy?
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