More On Indie Labels And YouTube: Some Legitimate Concerns, But Still A Lot Of Misplaced Anger
from the monetization-fight dept
Last week, we wrote about how some of the stories making the rounds concerning YouTube "blocking" musicians from using YouTube and taking down videos if they didn't agree to non-negotiable contract terms for YouTube's new music service were... exaggerated. We pretty clearly noted within that post that there could be legitimate arguments about the terms of the contract, but the claims about being "blocked" from YouTube were not really accurate. That story got a bit of attention, as people dug in to try to understand what was going on. Various versions of the contract that YouTube has been offering to indie artists have been floating around and Digital Music News has posted a copy of the whole thing, as it's done in the past with other music services.I've also heard from a number of folks in the indie music community who have raised some good points about their concerns, going beyond the whole misleading "but they'll block my videos." One of the best summaries of the concerns was actually placed on a comment to our original story, which highlighted a bunch of other points that people were concerned with, some more reasonable than others. Having looked at the contract on DMN and talked this over with some folks, a few things become clear, which we'll discuss with a few screenshots from the copy DMN uploaded (though it's worth reading the whole thing). First, YouTube is in fact raising the rates it pays people:
The second issue is the "major label" issue. That is, it's been reported, but not confirmed, that the major labels got nice advances from YouTube to join this program, and the indies feel that's unfair and that they're being cut out. As some have pointed out, some of this anger is really indies angry at the major labels plus YouTube as opposed to them just being angry at YouTube. But, on that front, it's somewhat difficult to figure out how YouTube can really do anything here. Of course it's going to provide greater guarantees and advances to the major labels, because they can be reasonably sure that those will make economic sense. It's much tougher to do that with a diverse group of independent artists. There is this tidbit in the contract, though, that has raised some eyebrows:
The final point that has raised some serious concerns is the apparent provision that artists need to hand over their full catalog and that it has to give their works to YouTube at the same time as any other "similarly situated" service. Here's the clause in the contract DMN posted:
Still, that's a contractual choice that Google/YouTube is making about how it wants to run its service, and it really doesn't seem that crazy for the company to try to put together a deal that will likely lead to the best overall experience for end users. Separately, as we pointed out last time (and at least one independent artist noted to me via email), it does seem to be looking a gift horse in the mouth a bit to basically argue that they all want to use YouTube's platform for free -- getting all the advantages of hosting, bandwidth, community, streaming software and more -- and then whine about how YouTube looks to make that more sustainable while at the same time providing ways for the artists to make some revenue as well.
So, in the end, there do seem to be some reasonable concerns by artists about the specific terms in the contract -- but that's going to be true in almost any contract negotiation. YouTube's never going to please everyone all the time. I do think YouTube could have done a few things to better anticipate some of these concerns and to provide artists with greater flexibility in some of the decisions they need to make, but looking over the key concerns, you can also make the argument that YouTube is structuring this offering to be better for users -- and doing so in a way that will help artists make money. And thus... the specific complaints do feel a bit more like nitpicking. The concerns about the deals with the majors are... just kind of a fact of life. It's hard to see how YouTube could realistically do much different in that situation. Negotiating individual deals with every single indie provider is a logistical impossibility (and, if anything, would likely require lower royalty rates, as the management of so many different deals would require significant overhead).
Once again, after looking at the details, it does seem like artists have some legitimate complaints, and YouTube could have been more open and transparent about some of the details of all of this. I definitely see the point from my artist friends who don't want to put everything on YouTube. But, having also dealt with music services where it's frustrating to see them missing songs that really ought to be available, you can see why the company is trying to drag some artists into accepting the fact that making more of their work available is probably best overall as well.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: content id, contract terms, indie artists, indie labels, music, youtube
Companies: google, youtube
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
You just cannot get the true "artist experience" if you aren't being screwed over by distributors.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
I think that part of what we've preached is the simple fact that once you release content you *no longer have control* over how fans will experience it or how they want to connect with you.
I understand the emotional appeal, but I recognize that fans make the work their own, and want to experience it in their own ways. And based on that, I can absolutely see why YouTube is doing what it does. I still think they could have and probably should have offered more options to musicians, but it's hard to deny that the end result here is likely to be a better overall experience for end users...
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
1. Don't sign with a label and you control all your music.
2. Don't post your works to YouTube and you don't have to worry about how YouTube controls your work.
3. Don't profit?!?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Do you have any information on this point?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
The Register has a lot of inaccurate, semi-trolling articles on this kind of subject so take anything there with a pinch of salt (especially if Andrew Orlowski is the author, as his articles are deliberately contrarian and usually have commenting disabled to avoid people correcting them).
If that's the only source you can find, I'd assume it's not true, or at best a gross distortion of reality. If there are other sources, I'm sure Google have their reasons, and the truth will come out in an EC investigation if there's enough merit to warrant one. Given the level of emotion and misinformation on this story already, it's best to wait for the smoke to clear, I think.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
ContentID ... foul-ups
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: ContentID ... foul-ups
FYI, ContentID has nothing to do with the DMCA notice-and-takedown process. You don't have to participate in ContentID to send notices.
The difference is that the DMCA requires those notices to be takedown notices. Your choices are to take the content down entirely, or to leave it up as-is.
ContentID is a way to avoid this Sophie's choice, imposed by the government upon rights holders and service providers, and offer a "middle way" where everyone gains. But it has nothing to do with the DMCA, it is a service created by YouTube, and (like all service providers) they have a right to control it.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: ContentID ... foul-ups
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: ContentID ... foul-ups
ContentID, from what I've seen from these gaming videos, ends up benefitting Google AND the publisher (or in this case label) with innocent content creators caught in too wide a net. But, as that article highlights, Google avoids lawsuits and tons of DMCA takedown requests with an imperfect algorithim, publishers/artists get EXTRA revenue they shouldn't be entitled to, and individual content creators have little to no redress, in terms of challenging false positives. I'm having a hard time seeing how this is bad for indie labels (or good for the public at large), maybe I'm missing something here.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
That summarizes pretty much all of your posts, Mike.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Never sue Google ?
Under the terms of the published version of the contract, indies must promise not only to never sue Google - under a “Covenant Not To Sue” - but give immunity to punters who continue to upload the label's own material to YouTube's massively popular video service.
Why does this matter? Getting your stuff taken down from YouTube is hugely costly and in practice, almost impossible, thanks to "safe harbor" provisions designed to protect ISPs and other service providers in the mid-1990s, when the public internet was in its infancy. It requires an individual URL-by-URL take-down notice to be filed for each infringement. Google can continue to monetize the label's music via YouTube, even without the label's permission.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
Definent MS interest in spreading FUD about Google in terms of streaming content, especially music, right now.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
Also, "One legal source familiar with digital music contracts claimed the terms amount to a restraint of trade.
"It's a contract so bad that you would never sign it in normal circumstances. But Google has a gun to your head," our source said.
Any indie music labels who take this fight all the way will want speedy justice from the EU."
Really, if the deal is that bad (tantamount to mafia extortion), you couldn't find one credible source in the music industry (especially from an indie label) to go on record? The whole thing smacks of shoddy reporting at best, and considering it's coming from a known shill for MS, I have a hard time giving them the benefit of the doubt.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
I am of the opinion that URL by URL take downs are absolutely necessary as a measure of preserving free speech. A lot of channels I view have erroneously had content taken down (Mike has written about this before - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131211/17365325537/youtube-fails-explaining-flood-takedowns-lets -play-videos.shtml ), and you're suggesting we make the situation even worse for the sake of Indie artists? I'm sorry, but implementing an overly broad takedown system so that Indie artists can get every possible penny of royalties is something I'm imposed to, just in the same way that I'm opposed to DRM in Firefox for the sake of Hollywood/Netflix. So in regard to that, I think that Google is doing something that benefits the general public, if not a certain sub-sect of it that are opposed to the current DMCA takedown system (which I already feel is too draconian).
My opinion in regard to The Register is that they're taking a potshot at Google here. But, by writing a sky is falling type of article like that, they provide great ammunition to copyright maximalists and artists who need every last revenue stream (i.e. ones not signed to a major label), who are willing to sacrifice the greater public interest (and overlook free speech concerns) to advance their own individual ones. Is it a "bad" deal? Sure, but no worse than ones artists sign with Spotify, iTunes, etc. in the eyes of many observers - http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/06/18/inside-youtubes-fight-with-indie-labels-over-new-music-servic e/ and I would argue that some aspects of the deal (in regard to takedowns) advance the public interest as well.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Never sue Google ?
Getting your stuff taken down from YouTube seems absurdly easy to me. What's the difficulty?
Regardless of that, the safe harbor provisions are what encourages sites to take down content, since sites have to do that if they wish to retain their safe harbor status.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
That's a very very different thing.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
This is actually unclear. It certainly seems to be the case that you can forget monetizing using ContentID. Whether you can still use it to take down videos is an unanswered question.
Nonetheless, even if what you say is true, it's not like rights holders are entitled to use ContentID. That's a service that YouTube offers (and which they spent over $60 million creating). Like any other service provider, they are free to determine the terms of use.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
Where do you get that from?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
From a Forbes article, to which Techdirt linked in their previous story:
- http://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenhuet/2014/06/18/youtube-indie-music-streaming/2/
I haven't compared that to the leaked contract, though.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Never sue Google ?
That's not crazy. It actually makes sense. Basically it's saying "if you license us this music to use on YouTube, you can't then sue us saying that us using it is infringing." What's the nefarious part in there? The claim that it gives immunity to third parties is clearly not the case given the language. This is just Andrew Orlowski doing a usual misleading hit piece on Google based on Chris Castle feeding him bullshit.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
I tried my hand at legalese. The 'Provider' is here probably the one providing the tracks. Let's call him the artist. 'any provider content' basically translates to content of others and the artist himself. 'User video uploaded to the YouTube website' can be shortened to 'video'. To the 'extent Provider's claim is based on the alleged infringement of rights granted by Provider to Google' basically states that the artist will not sue regarding alleged infringements of user videos if YouTube got the right to these videos.
So, that last sentence from the contract could also mean:
Nonetheless, the artist agrees not to sue users who infringe the artists copyright if Google is granted the use of the tracks.
I realize I'm not a legal scholar, and I did my best to try to read that shit. For instance, in the original is written 'synchronizes'. WTF does that mean anyway. On the other hand, I can certainly understand why people go bananas about this. If I can read it like that, others certainly can do so to.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
Nonetheless, the artist agrees not to sue users who infringe the artists copyright if Google is granted the use of the tracks.
No, you're right, that's exactly what it means - assuming you limit it to users uploading the specific tracks licensed to YouTube.
That's because it is exactly these types of videos that are monetized using ContentID. Without it, neither YouTube nor the artists would be able to do that.
If you monetize the videos using ContentID, those users wouldn't be infringing on the artists' copyrights at all. That's nothing new; it's pretty much the way it's always worked.
So, no, it's not remotely nefarious, even by your reading.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Never sue Google ?
And on the side: if I were to give Google a license to distribute my shit, why should I give any potential user on Google that same right ? I really don't get that.
For instance, in Germany a lot of tracks are not visible due to a failure to reach an agreement with GEMA. Does this clause override the problems with GEMA ? If after all every artist has agreed every user the same rights as google has, then GEMA will have no leg to stand on any more.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Never sue Google ?
There's nothing in the contract that even remotely hints that they would be allowed to do that.
Yes, the majors would be allowed to remix the indie tracks (assuming they signed the agreement), but the indies would be monetizing those remixes.
if I were to give Google a license to distribute my shit, why should I give any potential user on Google that same right ?
Mainly because you want to monetize those tracks. Without giving the users the right to upload your music, there would be no way to monetize those users' uploads.
Again, this is how ContentID has always worked. It's hardly nefarious.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
I was under the impression that major labels had the cash (say, from not paying artists) that they could afford to wait for the continuing payments from You-tube, rather than get cash beforehand.
If, as you imply, money going to the major labels can be a certainty, what economic sense does providing them an advance make?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
a well written, well balanced article
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Not a negotiation
I think this is the crux of it. The problem is, the indies aren't able to negotiate. They're basically being given the entire contract as a EULA, and being told take it or leave it. That's not a negotiation.
I'd be upset too if I wasn't able to negotiate around the problematic terms of the license.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Well, The Register deleted my comment
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
indie disadvantages
Excuse me if I've overlooked something in your posts on this matter, but I'd love to hear your stand on the following:
- the lack of negotiations with Merlin, while having negotiated with majors
- the possible effects of the world's biggest streaming service lowering royalty rates. My thinking is that other services might follow and as a consequence music streaming will devalue overall.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: indie disadvantages
I'm not Mike, but I can give you a plausible reason as to why YouTube would choose not to negotiate with Merlin:
The negotiations are between the rightholders and YouTube.
I am not a music biz insider, so I really have no clue, but I highly doubt that the Indie Labels have signed over the copyrights on their catalogs to Merlin. That would be a huge difference between Merlin and the major labels and one that wouldn't require YouTube to negotiate with Merlin at all, if they choose not to.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: indie disadvantages
While there are only three majors there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of indies (which is why Merlin exists) and all other major services make their deals in collaboration with both majors & Merlin. I simply can't see the reason for YouTube not to talk to Merlin except if they don't want to or can't do so while honouring their deals with the majors.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: indie disadvantages
Not sure I have any opinion on it one way or the other. I don't know the details there. If that's a big problem, why would the various indies just say "don't talk to me, talk to Merlin" and then the issue would be solved?
the possible effects of the world's biggest streaming service lowering royalty rates. My thinking is that other services might follow and as a consequence music streaming will devalue overall.
Can you explain this one further? From what I've heard, the rates aren't that far off from other services.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: indie disadvantages
Because YouTube would stop listening after "Don't talk to me..." The indie labels weren't given that choice; any attempt to have YouTube negotiate with Merlin would mean they weren't taking any deal.
At least, that's the accusation. Personally, I just don't see this happening, or at least it's not the full story. It's always easier to negotiate with one entity than it is to chase around hundreds of individual rights holders. It's why anyone ever dealt with ASCAP or BMI in the first place.
I find it much more likely that YouTube did attempt to negotiate a deal with Merlin, and the negotiations completely fell apart. Either that, or Merlin couldn't legally offer the licenses that YouTube needed (e.g. global rights).
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: indie disadvantages
That's because it's a well known fact that you're the village idiot that never has a clue about what you bloviate about.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: indie disadvantages
Well, it's not like YouTube hasn't reached deals with them in the recent past:
Merlin Reaches Global Licensing Deal With YouTube
And it's not like YouTube hasn't been negotiating with independent music groups for months:
YouTube: why one significant indie music group HAS signed licensing deal
I notice, too, that you have not provided one shred of evidence that anything I said was wrong. Or even a bad guess.
But, that's only natural, coming as it is from someone whose only recourse is to fling out ad hominem attacks when someone catches them in a lie.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: indie disadvantages
All quotes from WIN, Merlin & Impala I've seen state that Merlin hasn't been contacted.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: indie disadvantages
My thinking is that other services might follow and as a consequence music streaming will devalue overall.
Can you explain this one further?
I think what he means is that companies like Pandora will do individual deals with publishers like Sony or Universal, and cut ASCAP and BMI out of the loop altogether.
It's basically what I was talking about in my comment on the previous story.
Of course, the major publishers are actively pushing for this situation. It's why they're trying to get the DOJ to modify or eliminate the consent decrees governing ASCAP and BMI.
It's also why modifying the consent decrees is a terrible, terrible idea for songwriters and smaller publishers.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: indie disadvantages
Translation: Google continues to pay lower royalty rates than the other streaming services despite YouTube being the biggest and most profitable.
Google screws over artists every day. No reason to think that would ever change.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: indie disadvantages
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: indie disadvantages
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: indie disadvantages
See my above answer to Gwiz. In short the importance of having Merlin is to ensure that the diverse indie community can get the same deals as majors so they can continue their contribution to both artistic and commercial growth in the music sector.
Can you explain this one further? From what I've heard, the rates aren't that far off from other services.
The rates are as in your table above. What worries me is that the existing platforms' royalties are at a level where even artists that are great at RTB, getting themselves onto playlists etc. need to have streams in the millions per year to see digital music sales as a substantial add-on to other revenues from their careers such as live fees, sync etc.
I come from Scandinavia where streaming is the far biggest music format of all, also over downloads & CDs. Which I love though my own royalties as an artist are significantly lower than a few years back, and despite the investments I make as a label manager takes way longer to make back in sales. What the Scandinavian market has proved is that the consumers are willing to pay for streaming - and services like spotify etc. have found a subscription fee-level satisfactory to the majority of both rights holders and consumers (hardly anyone streams via stuff like last.fm, grooveshark etc. and even youtube streams have staggered and declined for many of us). But with YouTube pushing rates 10-20% in the 'wrong' direction I really fear the other services will be forced to follow and set us all years back financially in the streaming market.
Makes sense?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
The majors point
I think the argument here is that the majors *might* accept lower rates in return for big advance payments (which - this being the music industry's can of worms – they might also not be obliged to pass on to their artists).
And that may or may not be likely, but this is why indies are angry about that clause. They already suspect YouTube has agreed to pay big upfronts to the majors ($1bn is the figure that's been suggested a couple of times, although it is suspiciously round as figures go).
So say next time the contract is up for renewal, if YouTube were to say to (for example) Universal 'hey, how about we pay you $X upfront and lower the per-stream rates' the latter could then be enforced on indies, without anything upfront.
This is why the indies set up Merlin in the first place: to negotiate collectively and (possibly) get a slice of those advance payments – which Merlin would then distribute to the indie labels. This is why Merlin has equity in Spotify (an alternative to advances) on behalf of its members.
So that's another reason, I think, why some independents are cross about YouTube sending them contracts directly rather than sorting out a deal through Merlin.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: The majors point
I'm sort of afraid to know the answer.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: The majors point
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: The majors point
Labels sign artists up for "360 deals" all the time, giving the label access to all the artist's income streams. But do artists have symmetrical access to all the label's streams?
Why should labels be able to unilaterally reallocate payment for use of artists' music to "keep the doors open" or especially "to provide venture capital in the signing of new/more artists?" It makes a complete mockery of Doug Morris's famous comment, "...we will continue to be vigilant in protecting our rights and those of our artists and songwriters from services that unreasonably expect to build businesses on the backs of our content and hard work without permission and fair compensation."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
Quit deflecting away from the real issue. Google is trying to force ALL indie artists to give up their rights or else they will no longer be able to monetize their work on YT. This move is a massive pr disaster by Google but no surprise to all the people that have known they were evil all along.
If you're interested in actually getting facts, don't read this ridiculous blog, go to digitalmusicnews.com.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
Quite a spin there. What rights are the artists giving up?
...or else they will no longer be able to monetize their work on YT.
Or to it put correctly: "will no longer be able to monetize their work on a platform provided to them without for free."
This move is a massive pr disaster by Google but no surprise to all the people that have known they were evil all along.
How so? If they have successfully negotiated with 90% of the rightsholders, that only leave 10% who are disgruntled. How is that a bad PR move? Seriously, no one can please everyone all the time.
Can I ask you a question? I get the feeling you feel sense of entitlement about the services YouTube and Google provide you for free. Where does that come from? I'm serious, I really want to know. I use Gmail and Google search, but that doesn't make feel that Google owes me damn thing, why do you?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
Should be:
Or to it put correctly: "will no longer be able to monetize their work on a platform provided to them for free."
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
This is what YouTube started out and continues to do, entitlement, if you want to call it that is built into the internet.
Therefore they should negotiate with the owners of popular videos, for example Tugboat by Galaxie 500 or day the group Cracker or any number of artists who aren't on majors.
REFUTE IF YOU DARE.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
That's not entitlement at all. That's bending over backwards for the mainstream music industry.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
You realize that a video service like YouTube couldn't exist without the Safe Harbor protection the Copyright Act provides, right? (heck, even this site you are currently commenting on wouldn't exist without protection against liability by it's users).
Copyright Safe Harbors exist because Congress realized that placing liability on the actual infringers instead of the platform is the correct way to do things.
Therefore YouTube is obligated to negotiate with all popular indie artists in the same way they negotiate with major label artists. You're refuting this?
Wait. What? Are you saying because YouTube abides by the current laws and relies on copyright Safe Harbors against liability caused by it's users it is somehow obligated to negotiate with the Indie Labels? What kind of convoluted logic is that? Makes no sense to me, so YES I'm refuting that for lacking any actual intelligence or reason.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that asserting that YouTube "freely infringes on copyright" is incorrect. There are two main reasons this is incorrect: first, YouTube isn't infringing on anything, some uploaders are. Second, Google goes out of its way to find and remove infringing content.
As to "enabling copyright infringement", I'm not sure what point you're making by saying this. If technologies are bad just because they "enable infringement" then we'll all have to go back to using only the tech that existed before the advent of recording.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
They enable copyright infringement
No, they enable user-generated content. Some of that content is infringing, but it's not specifically set up to infringe on copyright.
If they "enable" copyright infringement, then so does every other website that contains user-generated content in any form.
they are protected for some reason by safe harbor
That reason is because Congress set up safe harbor provisions specifically to protect sites like YouTube. They realized (thankfully) that without it, any site that allowed users to post content on it could face secondary liability.
The fact that the DMCA established bright-line liability exceptions is one of the reasons we are legally capable of having an open Internet.
if your saying there isn't copyright infringement on YouTube, you are mistaken
Having infringing content on your website does not mean that the website was set up to "enable copyright infringement."
it's a profit circuit that feeds on itself die to safe harbor.
Every for-profit website with user-generated content partakes in the same "profit circuit." It is far, far better for everyone (artists included) that they do.
Therefore YouTube is obligated to negotiate with all popular indie artists in the same way they negotiate with major label artists.
That doesn't even make sense. They are following the law as it was intended to be followed. They have absolutely no obligation to do any more than that.
It would be nice if they negotiated with indies and major labels the same way, but that's never going to happen as long as major labels hold the significant market share. And not just with YouTube, either.
It should be noted that the monopoly granted by copyright causes this imbalance in market share. An individual copyright is a bona fide monopoly, and because they're transferable as if they were property, it means that the larger market players (major labels in this case) can hoard those individual monopolies.
So, yeah, of course players like YouTube (or Apple, Spotify, eMusic, Clear Channel, Live Nation, Tower Records...) are going to give preferential treatment to the major labels. Because of copyright, they control the majority market share.
The only hope that the indies have is to get onto platforms where their music is equally as available to users as the major label music is. Platforms like YouTube.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
What's impressive here is that there's a massive dichotomy between these two sentences, especially when you consider that most of the content will be tracked and monetised for the copyright holders by Google themselves. But, I presume that someone randomly commenting on dead forum comments isn't interested in the discussion that could come of an attempt to engage people for their opinions.
"Actually we might have a better internet as people would have to actually post something creative themselves rather than just link to some pop song."
You do realise that a large amount of the content on YouTube is exactly that, right?
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
I do refute that. Like John said, YouTube has gone way beyond what is required of them by law since Google obtained them.
You act like copyright is the only reason YouTube makes any money. That's silly. They make money because they built the most popular video sharing service ever. You also act like every cent they make in advertising is pure profit and that is also silly. How about you pay one days worth of YouTube's bandwidth, electricity costs, hardware costs, personnel costs and other overhead for a day. I'll bet my bottom dollar you couldn't afford an hour's worth with your entire life's savings.
This is what YouTube started out and continues to do, entitlement, if you want to call it that is built into the internet.
I wouldn't call that entitlement. I would call it what it is - staying within the boundaries of laws designed by Congress.
Therefore they should negotiate with the owners of popular videos, for example Tugboat by Galaxie 500 or day the group Cracker or any number of artists who aren't on majors.
Umm, isn't that what they did? From what I have gleamed, they have successfully negotiated with 90% of the rightsholders. And now they are negotiating with the remaining 10%. Unfortunately, since that 10% is in a very weak bargaining position, the negotiating is basically "this is what everyone else agreed to, take it or leave it". This is standard practice in every other business sector. Not sure why anyone deserves special treatment here.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
The only time things like this make me angry is when I don't have an alternatives -- for instance, I find my broadband provider's terms unacceptable, but I have nowhere else to get broadband from, so I'm "forced" to accept them.
YouTube doesn't have this level of monopoly, though. There are many alternatives. In fact, although I spend a fair bit of money of music, I rarely ever go to YouTube for music at all. There are many better places available.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The majors point
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Another small point
Not an example of YouTube being 'evil' – understandable they'd want to chance it on this kind of point – but would be surprised if that really is a non-negotiable length.
[ link to this | view in chronology ]