Why Do Police In Suburban St. Louis Have More Powerful Weapons Than Marines In Afghanistan?
from the just-wondering... dept
We've been covering some of the more troubling details of police militarization across the US, and specifically what's going on in Ferguson, Missouri over the past couple of weeks. However, we knew fairly little about the actual military equipment being used there. And we know that sometimes scary looking military equipment isn't necessarily so scary when put to use. So it's interesting to read a former Marine's analysis of the military equipment being used in Ferguson, which more or less confirms that it not only looks scary but absolutely is scary. Much of the discussion is about how all those "non-lethal" "riot control" weaponry is actually quite dangerous and potentially lethal. Here are a few examples:There are scattered reports of stun grenade use in Ferguson. Also known as flashbangs or flash grenades, this weapon of choice for American SWAT teams (and Israeli soldiers) originated in the British special forces community more than four decades ago. Ostensibly less than lethal, stun grenades have been known to kill or severely injure numerous victims, and the device was recently in the news for burning a 19-month-old baby in Georgia, resulting in a coma, during one of the thousands of domestic police raids this year. They are designed to temporarily blind and deafen, thanks to a shrapnel-free casing that is only supposed to emit light and sound upon explosion. Nonetheless, the list of casualties is long, and the number of flammable mishaps is disconcerting. In Rise of the Warrior Cop, Balko recounts a story of an FBI agent accidentally lighting himself and his vehicle on fire.There's a lot more in the article as well. But here's the bit that really stood out for me. After posting a picture of militarized police moving down the street looking pretty scary, the former marine, Lyle Jeremy Rubin, explains how they're more well armed than the actual military in Afghanistan:
[....]
These "pepper balls" are lethal; the Boston Police Department banned them after a young woman was killed by one. It passed right through the eye and skull to the brain. She was guilty of being present in a rowdy crowd after a Red Sox v. Yankees game in which the former won. The ACLU condemned the use of such projectiles for the purposes of crowd management back in 1997, following an unfortunate incident in Eugene, Oregon. They even convinced Eugene officials to do the same. It's about time St. Louis County and the rest of the country followed suit.
[....]
Like the stun grenade, employing wooden pellets as a form of riot control was spearheaded by the British decades ago, mainly in Hong Kong. As the ACLU makes clear, considerable litigation has proceeded in the aftermath of such tactics, including suits brought by protesters in Oakland who bore the brunt of these measures around the beginning of the Iraq War. Longshoremen on their way to work also suffered and sued accordingly. As a result, the Oakland police department caved and beating residents with wooden projectiles as a means of crowd management was rendered illegal.
What we're seeing here is a gaggle of cops wearing more elite killing gear than your average squad leader leading a foot patrol through the most hostile sands or hills of Afghanistan. They are equipped with Kevlar helmets, assault-friendly gas masks, combat gloves and knee pads (all four of them), woodland Marine Pattern utility trousers, tactical body armor vests, about 120 to 180 rounds for each shooter, semiautomatic pistols attached to their thighs, disposable handcuff restraints hanging from their vests, close-quarter-battle receivers for their M4 carbine rifles and Advanced Combat Optical Gunsights. In other words, they're itching for a fight. A big one. It's a well-known horror that the US military greets foreign peoples in this fashion as our politicians preach freedom, democracy and peace. It's an abomination that the police greet black communities in the States with the same trigger-happy posture. Especially on the occasion of an unarmed teen's death by cop.He also discusses the general rule that people repeat in our comments all the time: "never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot." And yet, of course, in pretty much every picture of the police here, we see them pointing weapons. And sometimes worse. Here's some video of a police officer in Ferguson not just pointing a weapon at some people livestreaming the protests, but telling the livestreamers that "I will fucking kill you." When the streamers ask him for his name, he says "Go fuck yourself."
Actually, isn't it about time we rethought the entire way that this country handles policing?
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Filed Under: ferguson, militarization, militarized police, missouri, weapons
Reader Comments
The First Word
“What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO beheaded an American journalist?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO crashed several planes into skyscrapers?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO hid weapons of mass destruction?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO tried to capture territory below the 42nd parallel?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO bombed the pacific fleet?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO invaded France and Poland?
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Re: Is the only difference between the cops and the bad guys a badge
the cops also have a legal system which sides with them over the average citizen. :-)
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Always have been.
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What could go wrong?
Oh yeah, that sounds like a great situation, and one that I'm sure will never lead to things going horribly wrong. /s
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Re: What could go wrong?
Ferguson is calling o/
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Re: What could go wrong?
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Re: What could go wrong?
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Unless, of course, you think your own citizenry is the enemy and you are at war with them, open or not.
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I think I saw this reported on the young turks
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Agreed. Now, how do we get them out of their hands?
BTW, by "their hands", I mean both the cops AND the citizenry, as both are walking the streets with assault rifles (excuse me, modern sporting rifles) at the ready.
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What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO beheaded an American journalist?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO crashed several planes into skyscrapers?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO hid weapons of mass destruction?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO tried to capture territory below the 42nd parallel?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO bombed the pacific fleet?
What about the time when the citizens of Ferguson, MO invaded France and Poland?
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Annnnd they shot another black man yesterday
Two cops. Too weak and cowardly to take on one guy with a knife. These wimps had a police vehicle with them and could have easily stood on the other side of it -- at which point a guy with a knife isn't much of a threat. They could have put a slug into his leg to take him down, then strolled over and taken away the knife.
But no. They opened fire, blazed away, and gunned him down in the street, because that's what they do to black people. No attempt to take them alive: just summary execution, because "I will fucking kill you" is the mantra of the police there.
Go watch the video -- HuffPost has it up. And watch these whining little pussies with badges commit murder in broad daylight because they can.
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Re: Annnnd they shot another black man yesterday
You deal with a crazy guy with a knife by clearing bystanders away to a safe distance, keeping your own distance and talking him down / waiting him out. Shooting is an absolute last resort, used only when there is no other way to avoid imminent harm.
That wasn't policing, it was murder.
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Re: Annnnd they shot another black man yesterday
News flash....Efrem Zimbalist, Jr passed away in May.
Oh and he wasn't really a FBI agent.
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Total BS
Total BS.
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Re: Total BS
so no, not bs.
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Re: Total BS
It seems to me the are woefully unprepared for crowd control and are resorting to 'force project' and the threat of violence instead.
Basically, they look, are equipped and are acting as a military combat unit, which, of course, is making things worse.
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Re: Re: Total BS
Riot police need:
1) Training
2) Fire hoses
3) shields and football uniforms
4) Training
5) Loudspeakers
6) Truncheons
7) Training
Anything else is just as likely to CAUSE a riot as prevent one. You don't respond to protests against police violence with the threat of more violence and hope to fix the situation.
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Re: Re: Re: Total BS
They merely become petty tyrants acting under the largess of greater tyrants. (TSA personnel are a good example of this system.) Hypocrisy weakens society, but it also weakens hypocritical law enforcement officers because their tough exterior is merely a facade hiding either inner moral weakness, or a fundamental disbelief in, and scorn for, the system they are supposed to be representing. It is my belief that events like these are merely a symptom of a sick society, not the root cause.
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Re: Total BS
Neither do they have drop-leg holsters or carry stun-grenades (flash-bangs) ... those are also special forces things.
They certainly don't fill their magazines with expanding hollow-point ammunition like police.
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Rambo had worse equipment to work with, though...
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reason
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A good reason not to visit the USA
And your population wonders why the rest of the world hates you? Say one thing and do another.
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Re: A good reason not to visit the USA
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Re: Re: A good reason not to visit the USA
That said, they are also much, much more likely to use a lot of non-lethal violence on protestors (truncheons, whips, rubber bullets, horses, tear gas, water canons, etc) but are equally likely to just hid behind large plexi shields (Roman phalanx-style) while being pelted with stuff.
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Re: Re: Re: A good reason not to visit the USA
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Re: Re: Re: Re: A good reason not to visit the USA
Ha ha ha! Good one!
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Re: Re: A good reason not to visit the USA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na#Armed_Garda.C3.AD
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Re: Re: A good reason not to visit the USA
However there is the Marechaussee which the Dutch version of the MP which has some civil tasks as well.
Unless you have visited some of the islands in the Caribbean where they are specifically ordered to work with the police their cooperation is invite only.
Another role you might have seen them in (seeing you traveled) is Border Patrol.
And in exceptional cases you might run into their version, the bijstandseenheid, of the mobiele eenheid (riot/crowd control trained police) but that generally means there is either house to house fighting needed to gain control of the situation or that the rioters have advanced from improvised projectiles to firearms (remember the Netherlands does not have a 2nd amendment and strict controls on who can use/own firearms). Even so the main difference is the training, seeing that the basic equipment is the same for both the bijstandseenheid and the mobiele eenheid with the bijstandsheenheid having access to military equipment (APCs, SMGs, etc) if the situation warrants it.
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Europeans are just kidding themselves.
What's even more startling is when the denial and the excuses start.
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Re: Europeans are just kidding themselves.
"What's even more startling is when the denial and the excuses start."
Funny you would say that. I presume you live in the USA?
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Re: Europeans are just kidding themselves.
I have never seen a policeman draw their weapon or threaten to draw their weapon. Never seen a drawn taser or baton, either (despite having been to plenty of protests that had riot cops in attendance).
The US style of policing is _not_ normal.
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Re: Europeans are just kidding themselves.
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Re: A good reason not to visit the USA
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Why?
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Why Do Police In Suburban St. Louis Have More Powerful Weapons Than Marines In Afghanistan?
No, wait. That doesn't quite work.
um....
Because the children! Yes, that's it. Think of the children.
And meth. Meth children.
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Re: Why Do Police In Suburban St. Louis Have More Powerful Weapons Than Marines In Afghanistan?
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Re: Re: Why Do Police In Suburban St. Louis Have More Powerful Weapons Than Marines In Afghanistan?
Everything was goin great, the cops were super friendly, never abused their position and only had one bullet in their top pocket.
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terrorists in the US
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Re: terrorists in the US
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Re: terrorists in the US
-- do a little math --
So, roughly one percent of the population are not terrorists? I wonder who that might be.
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Cops certainly should be more humble.
It's amazing what a black DA and police chief can do.
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Re: Cops certainly should be more humble.
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Re: Cops certainly should be more humble.
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People think this is about a hatecrime or whatever, but the truth is, a small number of locals started this with the sole intent of looting.
Yes a few honest people have joined them, but most of them only wants free stuff from the stores.
But then the cops are at fault too for not responding properly. They should have stopped the looters before this escalated into this whole "they hate the blacks" bullshit again.
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People think this is about a hatecrime or whatever, but the truth is, a small number of locals started this with the sole intent of looting.
Yes a few honest people have joined them, but most of them only wants free stuff from the stores.
But then the cops are at fault too for not responding properly. They should have stopped the looters before this escalated into this whole "they hate the blacks" bullshit again.
If I were an LEO, I'd be annoyed too -- but also embarrassed and apologetic.
Some people think this is hatecrime, but most people (including most people in this discussion thread you've hijacked) think this is more about misappropriation of military equipment, lack of proper training of LEOs, and improper use of force.
As for the looting; there's some looting, mostly by out-of-towners. Ferguson's been going on long enough now that the anarchist riot club has had time to move in. Note: this is not against anarchists; just against a subgroup that feels that the best way to achieve their goals is to incite rioting and looting. They do very little of it themselves, but move into "flash point" situations like this and encourage those who have already shown bad judgement.
Then we're back to your conclusion: indeed. Not only are the LEOs at fault for not heading this off earlier, the entire mess is due to police incompetence, from the first shot fired through to today. It's as if they receive no proper weapons training or anger management training, and on top of that, I have yet to see one properly trained riot squad on the scene -- instead it's police hiding behind military equipment for which they have not received appropriate training (if they had, they'd know that they shouldn't be using most of that stuff in the first place).
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Evidence, please.
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I also heard that a local KKK faction was attempting to enter and was denounced by the official KKK (now that's just weird). I heard this either on John Oliver or tyt
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Battlestar Galactica - but still terribly relevant
This can apply equally well to the police becoming militarized...
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Re: Battlestar Galactica - but still terribly relevant
"There’s a reason we separate military and the police: one fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the police becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to be served and protected."
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Re: Battlestar Galactica - but still terribly relevant
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Can we skip to the final chapter in this story please.
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Perhaps you are not giving the protestors enough credit. These people want change and change means the police lose power and their shiny toys - of course they want to squash it out.
They're shooting themselves in the foot, though.
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Because there are comparatively few Afghans (31M) and they're thousands of miles away whereas there are many Americans (318M) and we're in country. Obviously we're a much greater threat to the powers that be.
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a good thing ... really ...
Now we can disband the entire United States military -- and save taxpayers a trillion dollars every year -- yet still maintain a strong deterrent to the worst possible scenario ... the prospect of an invasion by Canada or Mexico.
And besides, with police having all the country's military power instead of the regular armed forces, it's (presumably) less likely that the police will be off on a worldwide crusade conquering countries and forging empires.
Many countries in the world (such as in Latin America) have indeed been set up this way for a long time -- having paramilitary police but no 'proper' military. And to no one's surprise, such countries tend not to invade each other and get into wars.
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Re: a good thing ... really ...
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Re: Re: a good thing ... really ...
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Re: Re: Re: a good thing ... really ...
http://williamblum.org/chapters/rogue-state/united-states-bombings-of-other-countries
shows we are doing a good thing?
Being the lesser of two evils doesn't make us good.
Do not choose the lesser of two evils, there is always another choice even if it is not discussed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: a good thing ... really ...
I am glad that the US military counterweight helped contain the USSR during the Cold War.
I am also glad that the Soviet military counterweight helped to contain the US. Not interested in becoming a subject of either empire.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: a good thing ... really ...
I prefer to be a citizen to being a subject.
The police are not the problem. They just want to do their job as safely as possible. The problem is with politicians who tell cops it is OK to have this stuff. The police are supposed to be there to serve and protect, they should not be there to dominate and control.
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Would you let them?
Would you demand the Police have a strong presence, or would you ask them to not get involved if vandals and looters were running amok through your neighborhood, destroying and stealing everything you worked for? Don't be ridiculous; heads would roll if they didn't desperately try to stop it. (Perhaps even literally).
And why don't they just shoot to wound? Did you know, that topic is a point of law? Every cop and gun permit holder is taught by lawyers as part of their training, by law if you shoot you have to shoot to kill; shooting to wound is legal proof you did not feel threatened.
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Re: Would you let them?
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Re: Re: Would you let them?
Then there is the fact that the British have special weapon units around to deal with the criminals they expect to have weapons. They send those and not Bobbies when they have to arrest them.
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Re: Re: Re: Would you let them?
But somehow, I doubt that Europe will turn into the Wild West -- with the possible exception of immigrant communities.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Would you let them?
That said if you are talking about home made stuff I could probably make a decent grenade with stuff I can buy in the local DYI stores and supermarkets.
Or I could get a (cross)bow.
I could probably fill in page after page of this but I think the point is fairly clear. Once you get into self made/improvised or unconventional weaponry the biggest limitations are imagination and how much danger you want to put yourself in.
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Re: Would you let them?
If my profession as the imposition of order and the use of force, I would be mortally embarrassed to fear anyone regardless of their size. There are any number of martial arts that will teach you how to deal with a 300lb brute if you are a 130lb housewife.
It's like tech patents. It's not what seems obvious to YOU but what seems obvious to a PROFESSIONAL in the field.
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Re: Would you let them?
Probably not, but what does that have to do with anything?
"Would you demand the Police have a strong presence, or would you ask them to not get involved if vandals and looters were running amok through your neighborhood"
If the police response was what the cops in Ferguson were doing, then I'd rather they sit out, please. We don't need cops going in there and making a bad situation worse.
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Re: Re: Would you let them?
In fact, even the UK Army in Northern Ireland at the height of the Troubles didn't have one half as much gear and ordnance as the Ferguson Police have. Plus, they weren't suicidal enough to deploy it in such a ham-fisted way.
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Re: Would you let them?
That has nothing to do with it, and you prove your ignorance of the subject by stating it.
The fact is that "shooting to wound" is a myth. It's hard enough to shoot a small target calmly and slowly when at a shooting range. It's practically impossible to do so in a stress situation. You are taught to shoot for "center of mass". This (a) increases the chance of hitting the target, and (b) DECREASES the chance of a stray bullet that can hit a bystander.
You want cops aiming for shoulders and knees? Then be prepared for a lot more incidents like that woman in Florida...
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Re: Would you let them?
It's not an either/or situation. There is a whole gamut of options available between the two extremes. Sure, no, I wouldn't want my store looted and burned to the ground, but I wouldn't want the perps summarily executed either.
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training
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Yes, clearly we must make it so that the criminals are much better armed than the police. In that manner, the police won't have the balls to do anything about crime!
I am sure if the police just put away their weapons and only use "please" and "thank you" the world will suddenly become a much more polite place.
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At the top there are well-armed, law-abiding citizens that control the police and overthrow the government if it should turn into a police state.
Below that is the police, armed with less modern equipment, ready to deal with criminals. They can't be too well equipped though, because then they would be able to defend the government if it should turn into a police state.
Now, the criminals... Uhm... Well, if some weapon is used for some kind of crima, all the weapons of non-criminals get upgraded above that level! It's easy! Why didn't I think of that before?
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This is what they have been doing.
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None?
How many criminals have a mortar or a tank?
Wyoming thinks it needs an aircraft carrier. Is this in response to criminals having one?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinunderhill/2012/02/28/wyoming-to-consider-buying-an-aircraft-car rier/
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All you can think is interactions of police with criminals. Take your head out of your ass for some air and you'll see such heavy military equipment IS NOT NEEDED by regular cops.
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But the rich don't pay these officer's salaries. US taxpayers pay the salaries of the military police force. Which is why it's ironic that these officers are suppressing the very people who fund their paychecks.
It's a hell of a deal for the rich elites who run this country. They get their own personal army, and don't have to pay a dime in financing. Passing along the costs to the American taxpayers, and then turning that army loose on the very people who fund them.
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An M4 receiver is like the chassis of a generic car. You can build something completely different looking on top of it, but the receiver stays the same.
There is no such thing as a CQB receiver - maybe he meant that the St.Louis mall-ninja have short-barreled-rifles ?? (aka: an "SBR").
SBR's are defined as a rifle equipped with a barrel under 16inches or an overall rifle length of under 26inches... under the NFA they are illegal to own without ATF approval - which costs $200 and months to process (currently around 9 months) background checks. Cops of course get special treatment with the ATF and don't have to pay $200 (just $1) or wait 9 months.
Fully-automatic (machine guns - or true "assault rifles") are being sent to some PD's via the 1033 program. From what I gather these models are post-1986 models and completely illegal for the average Joe to own... If it was made before 1986 you can apply to own one - that's if you can afford it, since they cost upwards of $15k. I don't know how post-1986 machine-guns are being transferred, since they are not supposed to be owned by anyone except for the military, licensed gun dealers or licensed gunsmiths. Apparently some Democrat Senator also managed to get a post-1986 machine-gun transferred to him by the ATF, which is completely illegal.
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On the plus side...
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