Is It Torture Now? ISIS Apparently A Fan Of CIA's Waterboarding Techniques
from the what-moral-high-ground? dept
Among the many, many, many problems with running a torture program (beyond being morally problematic and with no history of effectiveness) is the fact that it makes it easier for others to justify torture programs as well. It's now come out that ISIS has been waterboarding prisoners, including reporter James Foley whom they recently beheaded. Waterboarding, of course, was one of the CIA's favorite torture techniques. And, of course, people had warned for years that having the CIA waterboard people would only encourage others to use the technique against Americans. Hell, even Senator Dianne Feinstein condemned waterboarding a few years ago, because it would lead others to do it against the US:Waterboarding dates to the Spanish Inquisition and has been a favorite of dictators through the ages, including Pol Pot and the regime in Burma. Its practice is designed to nearly drown a subject and make them think they're going to die.Of course, beheading people is even worse that waterboarding them, and that seems to be the "defense" that administration officials are using to downplay the discovery of ISIS waterboarding techniques. "Hey, at least it's not as bad as beheading" is hardly a compelling response to finding out that ISIS is using CIA and DOJ-approved torture techniques.
Torture - including waterboarding - is immoral and illegal. It violates U.S. and international law and the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering. Condoning torture opens the door for our enemies to do the same to captured American troops in the future.
The FBI, which is investigating Foley’s death and the abduction of Americans in Syria, declined to comment. The CIA had no official comment.Yes, it's true that ISIS seems to have little concern about what techniques it's using, but to argue that the CIA's prolific use of torture and waterboarding has had no impact on how groups treat captured Americans seems like a stretch. At the very least, it takes away any chance of a moral high ground to argue about the specific techniques being used, and at worst contributes to the reasons why these groups feel justified in what they're doing.
“ISIL is a group that routinely crucifies and beheads people,” a U.S. official, using one of the acronyms for the militant group. “To suggest that there is any correlation between ISIL’s brutality and past U.S. actions is ridiculous and feeds into their twisted propaganda.”
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Filed Under: cia, isil, isis, james foley, torture, waterboarding
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Silence and deflection
Silence and deflection are pretty much the only possible response the USG has available at this point on the subject.
Condemn ISIS or other groups for torturing prisoners, and the question immediately brought up is 'So why was it acceptable when the USG did it?', and no politician or nation likes to have their hypocrisy made so very public like that.
Condone it on the other hand, and they'll have publicly admitted that the USG sees nothing wrong with with torturing prisoners, which isn't likely to go over very well both in-country and abroad, and immediately opens up, even more so than currently, the possibility that any american, soldier or civilian, that gets captured will be tortured.
The repercussions of the CIA and WH's actions here are going to be felt for decades to come, but the most obvious result is already plain to see: The USG can no longer object to the torture of prisoners without their hypocrisy on the subject immediately made clear, so instead, they respond with silence, looking the other way while it goes on, and giving tacit approval of it in the process.
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Ok, the CIA didn't behead anybody, but they've killed quite a few with their drone-bombs etc. Not exactly a pretty sight either!
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Re:
The latter is remote-controlled and saves the killers from direct contact with the victims.
Now if ISIS were civilized, they'd use some guillotine device at least. Of course, a beheading is unusual cruel as compared to being battered into pieces, so perhaps they can replace the blade of the guillotine with some large boulders crushing the victim to pieces in order to approach American standards of humanity.
Dropping boulders could also have the beneficial effect of killing a few bystanders, thus sending out a message that it is a bad idea to stay in the vicinity of bad people.
I am sure that there are some other measures one can take in order to emulate the high American moral standards even when using medieval weapons.
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Re: Silence and deflection
However, comparing it to a group who takes civilians and members of the media hostage, demands high ransoms, tortures them, and in the end kills them in a brutal method for public display is pretty much a big reach.
The repercussions of the CIA and WH's actions here are going to be felt for decades to come
Agreed. But publicly flogging them for it (especially considering that those who authorized and actually did the dirty work are long gone) doesn't really go very far towards fixing the problem. It just puts people on the defensive (again) and does nothing to move forward.
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Legal Inquisition ?
Do the spanish still hold the copyright on that technique ?
If so, there might be an easy way to make the CIA stop :p
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Actually this is a very US centric opinion, since in the eyes of the rest of the world calling the US out for there torture actions is very much a good thing.
I'm yet to see a statute of limitations on torture ANYWHERE other than probably the USA (good to keep yourselves covered hey) so stating that these people are 'long gone' is basically saying that you will not allow hem to be fully accountable for their actions. This is the epitome of hypocrisy.
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Re: Legal Inquisition ?
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
There is also Gitmo and extraordinary rendition, so it is not that big a reach. The US is leading by example, there are no rules when protecting your own interests.
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Re: Re: Legal Inquisition ?
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
The CIA and the Obama White House have classified parts of the recent "torture report" because national security could be compromised if the techniques used were exposed. The only way that makes any sense is if they are still using the secret techniques. It appears that waterboarding has become EXACTLY the US style.
But publicly flogging them for it (especially considering that those who authorized and actually did the dirty work are long gone) doesn't really go very far towards fixing the problem
I would argue that it is the only way to fix the problem. What else works? The CIA gets to redact the very report that condemns their behavior. People torture in secret hoping it will not get out and assume there will be no negative results for them. Making it very clear when those results impact US citizens is very important.
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Martin Luther King, Jr.
The US, apparently, does not measure up.
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Until they do, the rest of the world will keep organising an intervention.
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Those methods were not justified (or perhaps were)
You are a disgusting, rotten piece of trash just for considering that such methods might have been justified or would be justified in any case.
But publicly flogging them for it (especially considering that those who authorized and actually did the dirty work are long gone) doesn't really go very far towards fixing the problem.
Yeah, let it fall into oblivion, it's no big deal, right? We should forget Nazi Germany happened too. Give me a break. These things must have a lot of light shone on them to be thoroughly exposed so measures will be adopted to prevent them from happening again.
It just puts people on the defensive (again) and does nothing to move forward.
Your trolling does that. Or maybe not, maybe you are being serious which is even worse.
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Re: Re: Re: Legal Inquisition ?
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Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy, thy name is USG.
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This article is good way to answer =)
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Thanks for the personal attack. You are so sweet! You and I personally were not there, and we do not know the circumstances under which much of this happened. While I seriously doubt that any of it was justified, I don't close the door to it, because perhaps those doing it felt that it was incredibly justified, an expedient way to save American lives.
It's often the same excuse used by the worst of the worst in history, and I am not condoning it. I am only leaving open the possiblity that it was truly needed to save a whole lot of people (at least in their minds).
let it fall into oblivion, it's no big deal, right?
Nope. If you are going to punish people for something, punish those who did it.
We should forget Nazi Germany happened too
Didn't take you long to go there, congrats on going full troll.
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree w/Whatever. The difference is in the purpose. Let's make this clear: waterboarding IS torture, should NEVER have been done, and was wrong. However, it must be true that those in the employ of the CIA and the drone strikes are not and did not commit brutality with the primary goal of dehumanizing and enemy and publicly attempting to strike fear in the them with their brutality.
Both are wrong, but there CAN be such a thing as different degrees of wrong and evil. The United States, much maligned and assumed to be able to shift the world with the flick of its finger, isn't even close to the level of evil that ISIS is.
What's interesting is whether or not the US will learn this lesson: when you torture, you forfeit the right to complain about those same torture techniques being used on our soldiers/citizens.
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Both are wrong, but they just don't scale against each other.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Not to speak for another, but I think his point is that there are no circumstances that have plausibly ever been offered by anyone that could possibly justify torture. Even if you think the ticking time bomb justifies it - and I don't - there was never any such scenario. And no, guessing that it's possible there could be an attack coming isn't it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
What's required is a firm stance: not only do we not torture under ANY condition, we also don't skirt the line of torture, or come close enough that a reasonable argument could even be made that we are torturing, ever.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
The possibility must not be left open at all. End of the story. My reaction might have been quite harsh on you but that's precisely what I think of people who even consider any kind of torture to be a valid method under any circumstance.
Nope. If you are going to punish people for something, punish those who did it.
For punishment to take place sometimes you need a lot of exposure. "Flogging" them if you are using it as in lashing out is totally justified and needed for things to change. Took years of outrage, outcry for the Dictatorship crimes to be actually judged and punished here.
Didn't take you long to go there, congrats on going full troll.
It was hyperbolic indeed but that's exactly what you are suggesting.
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
This ISIS bullshitters are being "flogged" for their actions alike and should pay for their crimes, it's not like the US has the exclusivity. But it does have a ton of added responsibility BECAUSE it's not a small extremist group from whom we expect such absurds to some degree.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
It's your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I am a bit more reasonable, understanding that reasonable men (and women) sometimes do unreasonable things for very good and even what they think are noble reasons. 20/20 hindsight is something we may have the benefit of in judging the situation, but they don't have that luxury at the time.
Took years of outrage, outcry for the Dictatorship crimes to be actually judged and punished here.
That is a problem of your country and the system that existed, not one that the US has much of a problem with. What the US considers "secret" would be considered extremely open in almost every other country in the world. Trying to measure the US experience by how things went with your dictatorship isn't exactly a fair measurement.
It was hyperbolic indeed
Glad you see it, so now you can apologize for going full troll and suggesting that waterboarding some terrorists is anything like having millions of my people exterminated like vermin. You disgust me.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
That's the point! If the rule is "we don't torture anyone, ever, no matter what" then we don't need hindsight. Everyone knows the answer is always no. If the rule is "we'll torture people if we think it's really necessary" then that guarantees we'll end up torturing some folks.
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Re: Re: Re: Legal Inquisition ?
I wonder if they will lose these as well?
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Re: Hypocrisy
In other words, questioning our actions helps the terrorists.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Their answer would be "we didn't think it was torture at the time". That's the main point. At that time, it was considered mostly an expedient way to get the "truth". Now we recognize it for what it is and are repulsed by it.
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
The end doesn't justify the means, so whether you are doing it under the belief that it will help protect your nation, or to strike terror in your enemies doesn't matter. If the action is the same it is just as good or evil no matter why you are doing it.
To quote Christopher Dawson:
As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to destroy
Note that I'm not saying that the US is as evil as ISIS - ISIS has done many things more evil than waterboarding. However the US cannot claim that their use of torture was acceptable because they did it for noble reasons. After all I'm sure ISIS believe they are torturing people for a noble reason.
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Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Not is the US style? What an odd way to say "torture".
"publicly flogging them for it (especially considering that those who authorized and actually did the dirty work are long gone) doesn't really go very far towards fixing the problem"
It's part of fixing the problem. It does at least a couple of things: it demonstrates to the world that there are people in the US who actually take these crimes seriously and helps to socially ostracize the behavior to hopefully discourage it in the future.
That those who ordered or did the acts aren't still there is unfortunate, but doesn't mean we have to let it go. Letting it go means it will happen again.
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prosecutions in US courts?
The trials would certainly be interesting, presumably with the defense prohibited from ever uttering the word "Guantanimo."
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Whatever man.
Whatever: {Present authoritarian viewpoints, utilize mental gymnastics to justify said authoritarian viewpoints.}
Ninja: {Destroy Whatever's argument using point by point anaylsis and basic logic.}
Whatever: {Respond to Ninja with point-by-point rebuttal, end up presenting even more irrationally autoritarian viewpoints.}
Ninja: {Takes Whatever's troll bait and loses his shit a little bit. Presents final logical conclusion where Whatever's points are basically destroyed.}
Whatever: {Accuse anyone who disagrees with his love of authority of being a troll.}
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Sure, but that doesn't mean it's an honest answer. Waterboarding had been recognized as torture before; it's not as though this was a new thing.
Now we recognize it for what it is and are repulsed by it.
Except for the people who are still trying to make sure nobody gets punished for it. You don't see people like ex CIA chiefs saying anything like "that was horrible and I wish we had never done it".
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
And they'd be straight-up lying when they said this. The US has, in prior conflicts, called many of the exact same techniques we used "torture" when it was done to US soldiers and civilians. Now suddenly they don't think it's torture anymore? Bullshit.
Everyone involved knew damn well they were torturing people.
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Wait, really?
*officially in US custody that is - the ones held in less "civilized" countries may have been too - but not *by* the CIA, rather *for* the CIA.
Or is this just another way for people to beat up on America using moral equivalency?
I'm certainly not one to make apologies for government overreach - neither the Bush administration nor the current one have been taking the rule of law too seriously IMO - but really, you just can't compare a bunch of 6th century barbarians to the CIA in any meaningful way. I think this article jumps the shark a bit by trying to do so.
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Re:
Neither is particularity to be desired but the only thing I can come up with about murdering your enemies is that with the beheading at least the family has a body to bury.
As far as the hypocrisy goes, this had already been showing up with the Secretary of State demanding China cease spying. We've no longer the basis for being world cop as the government is just as corrupt globally as it is domestically.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
That isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that the circumstances and goal of an action can justify that action. I would have thought that was self evidently true....
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Re: Whatever man.
He trolls really hard, and generally loses his sh-t when I point it out. Today he went way over the line, trying to equate waterboarding a few terrorists with trying to exterminate jews. Not acceptable, no matter what the topic.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
To quote Wikipedia:
In an extreme form, the idea of consequentialism is commonly encapsulated in the English saying, "the ends justify the means", meaning that if a goal is morally important enough, any method of achieving it is acceptable
From your comment, with reference to US and ISIS waterboarding, you state that "The difference is in the purpose" and "those in the employ of the CIA and the drone strikes are not and did not commit brutality with the primary goal of dehumanizing and enemy and publicly attempting to strike fear in the them with their brutality"
To me this reads that there is a difference in the evilness of waterboarding depending on the purpose - and therefore that the ends can justify the means?
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Fattening
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Re: Re: Whatever man.
Be fair. He did no such thing. He was arguing that that we shouldn't just let bad behavior go. He used the Nazis as a comparison of how there are things we shouldn't just let go. It was extreme, emotionally charged, rhetoric, but certainly not equating waterboarding with the holocaust.
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Re: Re: Whatever man.
Funny, that's my impression of your behavior.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Hitler wanted a pure and strong 'master race' therefore by your logic, despite the murder and torture of tens of millions of people, because he had a 'good' goal in mind then everything is A-OK?
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
- Their country was on the verge of annihilation
- Thousands upon thousands were screaming and dying in Allied bomb raids
- Captured prisoners might hold vital information to the war effort
So what's our excuse, "we really, really needed torture" this time?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
If you think about it really hard for just a moment, you'll realize I'm arguing that the GENESIS justifies the means, not the end result.
And you already know this to be true. It's the reason we don't jail a housewife who shot her husband to keep him from killing their mutual child. It's the reason we allow for a self defense justification in murder trials. It's the reason why launching a war on Nazi Germany prior to that country attacking us wasn't considered an aggressive war without justification.
Come on now, guys, let's not all get silly. We all agree that torture is wrong, but let's not pretend like the stance of the United States and the stance of ISIS and the way we prosecute one another are equal, because they ain't even close...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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1. for information
2. because they enjoy inflicting pain
3. to instill fear
4. all of the above
I think you can assume that the CIA was doing so for reason 1, with perhaps some of the people actually carrying out the torture for reasons 1 and 2.
ISIS is doing it for reasons 2 and 3.
Moral relativism aside, there *is* a difference between DOING evil and BEING evil.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
This is NOT about trolling but instead the USA stating that they can do whatever the fuck they want to anyone because well.. FUCK YOU! but anyone else has to kowtow to their line of hypocritical bullshit unethical reasoning.
I'm certain ninja wasn't stating they were Nazi's... though I will state unequivocally that they are VERY MUCH like how the Nazi's justified there atrocities to the world afterwards.
If it quacks like a duck... etc etc.. and at the moment how the USA is treating the rest of the world... well I'm hearing a lot of quacking from you and others justifying your actions and the actions of those YOU ARE ALL protecting.
Remember harbouring a criminal (esp extreme crimes like torture etc) is also an offense!
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Re: Wait, really?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
Here this might show you WHY torture is still classified as a wrong and the SAME wrong as what ISIS is doing.
In fact one could argue that a beheading is an act of murder and is permanent. Whereas torture is an ongoing pain and emotional distress that will last with the person for the rest of their natural life.
Personally in the wider scheme of Evils torture is probably worse and the World agrees!
Here's the "Combating Torture - A Manual for Judges and Prosecutors" link and points 5.4 - 5.5 & 5.16 - 5.19 are extremely relevant to this.
https://www.essex.ac.uk/combatingtorturehandbook/manual/5_content.htm
any action of wrong needs to be instantly prosecuted if known and those alleged to of done so brought to be tried for those crimes. This is what 'whatever' doesn't understand and thinks well "they are not doing it anymore why does anyone care" and you are supporting.
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Re: Re: Whatever man.
Oh wait.. YOU assumed!!! though Nuremberg WAS NOT ONLY about the Jewish Atrocities but about all of Nazi Germany's war crimes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
That is self-evidently not what the US does as a matter of foreign policy. You may not like all US actions, hell, I don't like all of them either, but claiming that our foreign policy is conducted without restraint is silly.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
I'm not sure he doesn't understand it. He just always supports authority. Kind of like kenichi tenaka, but more coherent.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
beheading - the manual removal of the head with an edged weapon, carried out on a live victim and resulting in death, and
waterboarding - the simulated drowning process carried out with a bucket and towel, carried out on a live victim who remains alive afterwards.
If you can't see the difference between these two acts and prefer to see waterboarding as the greater evil, I guess you could ask one of the guys that got waterboarded which he would prefer. I'd say you could ask one of ISIS's victim's as well, but... yeah, they're all dead.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
US government officials worrying that terrorists might stoop down to their level on torture ... should be telling.
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Re: Wait, really?
The USG, due to it's previous and current actions, can no longer condemn torture of prisoners without exposing it's hypocrisy on the subject, that is what people are pointing out.
*officially in US custody that is - the ones held in less "civilized" countries may have been too - but not *by* the CIA, rather *for* the CIA.
I'm not even sure why you bothered to include this bit honestly, whether the CIA is torturing people themselves, or handing people over to be tortured, they are still responsible for what happens.
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Use the nuclear option
Oh wait, we did that also.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
"Well, it's what he would have wanted."
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
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ISIS is now declaring war on the Western world, using CIA torture techniques and murdering hundreds, threatening credible terrorist actions in Europe and the US, and has revealed the failed state building in Iraq that the US wasted a trillion dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives on for much of the last decade.
Mission Accomplished, my ass.
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December 7th is my birthday!!!
Personally, I thinks its far more likely that the reason ISIS is using the CIA's patented torture methods, is simply because its the CIA that's currently teaching them how to best scare the hell out of people.
Already its been shown that as much as 20% of ISIS's membership is made up of masked British citizens, who were recently threatened with the loss of those citizenships by the British government for being ISIS members.
How easily it would be for the CIA, (along with Special Ops forces, like the British Special Ops teams caught wearing Afghani Terrorist garb in Afghanistan), to once again, train another terrorist organization like Al Queda in the use of CIA terror methods, when everyone conveniently wears masks.
As I said before, you're all being Pearl Harbored again.
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Re:
It is specifically used, NOT so much for punishing the victim - as its most often a quick death - but to scare the witnesses.
Most forms of public execution are designed to frighten the witnesses into obedience or compliance, or in this case, simply to frighten them into renewing their support for the multi-billion dollar a year Anti-Terrorist Businesses and Tax Fed Government Operations in the US and Britain.
The CIA - when not masquerading as the enemy - has likely never used beheading as a means of murder, because they work in secret and do not display their actions. Such displays are always reserved for false flag operations such as this, where the CIA poses as the enemy.
However, to believe that the CIA has not committed multiple and mass murder in a variety of other fashions, is a fool's dream.
---
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Re:
They're damned expensive.
Besides, with 25% Brit SpecOps and probably no more than 25% Yank SpecOps, you have to leave room for some real middle eastern type folks, so you can have a good photo-op where at least one or two dudes have their obviously middle eastern features prominently exposed for the western media.
You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but with Hollywood special effects, a few billion tax-payer dollars, and total control of the Truth-Free Press, you can fool all of the people, all of the time, for a while.
As long as you have a string of manufactured crisis ready in the wings, "a while" is all you normally need for any single scam to do its work and keep the money rolling in.
---
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
I don't know about American law, but here in Germany we have a legal principle that says that you are not exempt to the law only because you are ignorant of it. I think this should apply in this situation.
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Re:
If any countries at all might ever be eligible for this kind of role (which I do not believe) it might be those with high social equality and all around happiness of citizens, so one might want to look to Scandinavia instead.
But they've got really high taxes and social welfare there and those are totally evil, right?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
We have that too, but it only applies to the common folk.
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Re: December 7th is my birthday!!!
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
That's a bit strong.
I can see situations where torture would be justified.
e.g. a super-villain type plot:
Fusion bomb planted in under Manhattan, all the bridges and roads cut such that it'd take days if not weeks to evacuate. Bomb has 2-hours left on the countdown timer. Person who planted the bomb/knows the secret-code to deactivate it. That person in custody/caught by the James Bond style spy. Need to get the code NOW. Torture-away (if no better options known).
What I'm against is institutionalized torture. Even the concept of legal torture is repulsive to me. In the example outlined above, the torture actions would still be illegal. If they worked and the torturer survives (i.e. torture where the bomb is so if it goes off torturee and torturer goes up with it) then the torturer should still be arrested and charged with torture. If their actions were justified (which in my mind in that sort of situation they would be), then there are many alternatives to 'save' our hero:
1) jury finds our hero innocent;
2) jury finds hero guilty, judge gives suspended sentence (or limits to days served or something) due to extenuating circumstances;
3) jury finds guilty, President pardon's the hero.
I mean, it should remain illegal, and if the ends justify the means, then they'll get pardoned. Therefore torture is still illegal, but in the super-duper rare OMG we need the answer NOW type situation, it could be forgiven afterwards - easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
This way torture would not be routine, as if it's NOT justified, it's used in in a non-WMD-type millions gonna die type situation , then prosecution, sentencing, jail, key throwing-awayness.
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Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
That's a bit strong.
I can see situations where torture would be justified.
e.g. a super-villain type plot:
Fusion bomb planted in under Manhattan, all the bridges and roads cut such that it'd take days if not weeks to evacuate. Bomb has 2-hours left on the countdown timer. Person who planted the bomb/knows the secret-code to deactivate it. That person in custody/caught by the James Bond style spy. Need to get the code NOW. Torture-away (if no better options known).
What I'm against is institutionalized torture. Even the concept of legal torture is repulsive to me. In the example outlined above, the torture actions would still be illegal. If they worked and the torturer survives (i.e. torture where the bomb is so if it goes off torturee and torturer goes up with it) then the torturer should still be arrested and charged with torture. If their actions were justified (which in my mind in that sort of situation they would be), then there are many alternatives to 'save' our hero:
1) jury finds our hero innocent;
2) jury finds hero guilty, judge gives suspended sentence (or limits to days served or something) due to extenuating circumstances;
3) jury finds guilty, President pardon's the hero.
I mean, it should remain illegal, and if the ends justify the means, then they'll get pardoned. Therefore torture is still illegal, but in the super-duper rare OMG we need the answer NOW type situation, it could be forgiven afterwards - easier to ask forgiveness than permission.
This way torture would not be routine, as if it's NOT justified in a non-WMD-type situation, then prosecution, sentencing, jail, key throwing-awayness.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Silence and deflection
So when will the US indict (let alone convict*) anyone for their involvement in unlawful imprisonment, torture, war crimes, etc?
When will the US hand over the people responsible for extraordinary rendition, and the relevant evidence, for trial in the country where the offences took place?
When will the US accept the jurisdiction of the ICC?
* Yes, I know that you can't guarantee a conviction of anyone in particular, but the crimes occurred so there are guilty parties, and the evidence is there to convict someone even if only for destruction of evidence. In any case senior officials have admitted what they ordered done, and since 1945 it has been accepted that ordering war crimes is itself a war crime.
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Re: Re:
That's why I don't believe any of the "Feds did 9/11" conspiracy theories - if they didn't care about killing thousands of their own people, they really don't have any sane reason to care about a controlled demolition, they just have to run the attack as they said it happened except with UBL's messenger actually being a government agent, and some convenient inside information about security vulnerabilities.
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever man.
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Only one way to fix hypcroisy
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Re: Re: December 7th is my birthday!!!
Since then, orchestration has been the keyword of all government functions.
Yes it bears a striking resemblance to all the other false flag operations undertaken by the CIA. They are not really all that imaginative and re-use any process that has worked in the past.
I mean seriously, the NSA has been spying on the Whole World, but somehow just happened to not know anything about ISIS until after it was fully operational, completely equipped with the best weapons and tech, and actively mobile.
I'd believe the story about the Horse and the Prince before I'd swallow that line of BS.
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Re: Only one way to fix hypcroisy
Methinks you might have to first hire some people and form something you might call... oh, lets see, a Justice Department, or something like that. You know - a group of employees of the America People who uphold laws by punishing wrong-doers.
Can't get very far without something like that in place first.
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Re: Re: Re:
Look it up.
While the fascists masquerading as your government don't really give a shit about how the people they rob feel about them, they do care about continuing to milk the sheep until the sheep are absolutely dry and empty.
That's why they manufactured the cover up.
That's why they shipped all the Nano-Thermite molten steel girders to China before anyone could examine them.
To keep people like you shopping and going to work and paying your taxes and casting your votes and generally remaining good little sheep who "...don't believe any of the 'Feds did 9/11' conspiracy theories.".
You see, plausible denial works really well. It gives those too frightened by obvious reality, a secondary "plausible" reality they can choose to believe in instead, as long as they thereafter ignore and discount all contrary evidence.
Like so many others who simply could not sleep at night knowing their lives were in the hands of insanely greedy assholes, who could not give a shit about anyone other than themselves, you fell for it hook line and taxes, simply because you're still afraid to accept the truth staring you in the face.
You prefer the pretty lie to the ugly truth.
You're not alone at least. In fact, you are among the majority of US citizens, although probably not the majority of world citizens.
Sadly, nothing short of a baton to the skull, unlawful incarceration and torture, will ever shake a belief forged from fear and faith.
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