FBI Harassing Core Tor Developer, Demanding She Meet With Them, But Refusing To Explain Why

from the not-cool-fbi dept

Thu, May 5th 2016 10:40am — Mike Masnick

Isis Agora Lovecruft is a lead software developer for Tor and has worked on Tor for many years, as well as on a variety of other security and encryption products, including Open Whisper Systems and the LEAP Encryption Access Project. And, apparently, the FBI would really like to talk to her, but won't tell her (or her lawyer) exactly why. It's really worth reading her whole post, which starts with an FBI agent showing up at her parents home and leaving a card, and then later phoning her mother's cell phone while she was at work a few days later. Lovecruft had a lawyer reach out to the FBI agent in question, which resulted in an odd discussion:

Word got to my lawyer in the US, who decided to call FBI Special Agent Mark Burnett, on that Friday, saying that he represented me and my family. Burnett said the FBI simply wanted to ask me some questions. My lawyer responded by stating that, as my invoked representation, all questions should be directed to him rather than to me or my family. The agent agreed, paused while some muffled male voices were heard in the background, and asked to call back in five minutes.

Five minutes later, Burnett called back and said, “I don’t believe you actually represent her.” Burnett stated additionally that a phone call from me might suffice, but that the FBI preferred to meet with me in person. After a pause he said, “But… if we happen to run into her on the street, we’re gonna be asking her some questions without you present.”

Complicating matters was the fact that Lovecruft was deep into the process of moving permanently to Germany, and actually had just been visiting her family in the US. She worried about whether or not she'd even be able to leave, though eventually flew back to Europe without incident. She notes that once back in Germany, she was focused on getting all the documentation in order to get her official residence visa in Germany when the FBI again came looking for her:

The day before my appointment, I spoke with my lawyer. He had received another call, this time from a FBI Special Agent Kelvin Porter in Atlanta.

Lawyer: Hello?

Agent: Hello, this is Special Agent Kelvin Porter at the FBI field offices in Atlanta. I’m calling concerning your client.

Lawyer: Yes. Why are you trying to contact her?

Agent: Well… as before… we would strongly prefer to meet her in person. We have teams in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, New York, and Atlanta keeping an eye out for her.

Lawyer: Your colleague mentioned last time that you would accept a phone call?

Agent: We would strongly prefer to meet her in person. We… uh… have some documents we’d like her opinion on.

Lawyer: Umm…? What documents?

Agent: Anyway, if she’s available to meet with us, that would be great, thanks.

It didn’t exactly help with the stress of applying for a residence visa to know that there were teams in five cities across America keeping an eye out for me. However, I’m glad to say that, the next day, my residence visa was approved. Eight hours afterwards, my laywer received a voicemail saying:

Agent: Hello this is Special Agent Kelvin Porter, we spoke two days ago regarding your client. Umm… well… so the situation with the documents… it’s umm… it’s all fixed. I mean, we would of course still be happy to meet with your client if she’s willing, but the problem has… uh… yeah… been fixed. And uh… yeah. Just let us know if she wants to set up a meeting.

So, that seemed to settle things for the time being -- though still made her nervous. That last conversation happened in January. But it appears that last week, the FBI came knocking again, and apparently said they want to serve her with a subpoena.

The FBI has contacted my lawyer again. This time, they said, “She should meet with one of our agents in San Francisco to talk. Otherwise, are you the point of contact for serving a subpoena? She’s not the target of investigation, but, uh… we uh… need her to clear up her involvement or… uh… potential involvement in a matter.”

She's (reasonably) worried that whatever the FBI is planning to ask her about or serve her with comes with a gag order and she won't be able to speak about it. She also notes that she's got a personal warrant canary, which might be worth watching for obvious reasons.

But, honestly, the part that struck me as most interesting about all of this is the incredible amount of stress that this obviously caused for her. It doesn't matter if the FBI says she's "not a target," having the FBI come looking for you can really shake you up. Especially when they won't provide any details:

I didn’t talk to anyone who wasn’t already in regular contact with me, fearing I might endanger them — some thug might show up at their mom’s door or make some threats to their lawyers — and I didn’t want to risk harming people I care about. It hurt to not tell my friends what was happening. I felt gagged and frightened. I wanted to play chess in the park. I wanted to learn duets on the piano. I wanted to ride bicycles through the ancient groves in the park in the endless Californian sunshine. I wanted to bring homemade vegan gluten-free brownies and stickers from collectives in France to my friends at the EFF. To be selfish, I wanted to read the number theory papers I’d just downloaded and play with a new pairing-based cryptography library I’d just been given the source to, but I couldn’t do those things either, simply because I was too stressed out to think straight.

I got absolutely no work done.

That, right there, is a clear description of the chilling effects that this kind of thing can cause. And that's a shame. As she later notes, her paychecks for working on Tor come from the US government. She's not a spy or a criminal. She's working on software that makes everyone safer. And no matter what the reason for the FBI's interest, it's ridiculous that someone should have to go through this kind of process.

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Filed Under: fbi, harassment, isis agora lovecruft, tor
Companies: tor project

123 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 10:49am

Her name is Isis. Isn't that enough?
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That One Guy (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 10:50am

Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
One of the most disturbing aspects to this is the continued insistence on a physical meetup, as though it simply wasn't possible to have the discussion over the phone or online in some way.

Given the repeated insistence on a physical meeting, refusal to state what they wanted her for, and the not so veiled insinuation that they'd really rather not have her lawyer present, yeah, I'd say she had plenty of reason to be worried.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 10:55am

Re:
Awesome.
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Just Passin' Thri, 5 May 2016 @ 11:01am

Lovecruft FBI meet
Under no circumstances should she meet the FBI alone without recording the conversation.

The FBI usually has a team of 2 participate in interviews, which under recent policy can be unrecorded if inconvenient. The agents will memorialize the interview... they write up what they "recall" of the interview afterwards.

Later, she may be summoned to appear before a grand jury. They ask the same questions. For some mysterious reason, her identical answers don't match the memorialization, which both agents swear to.

Result? Indictment for violation of USC 1001, lying to a federal agent. Prison time, or blackmail.

What to do? If encountered on the street, attract attention by screaming for them to get away from her, and run away. Otherwise, meet with them only with a witness (lawyer) present and/or on her own turf where she has a secret recording of her own. Then secrete the recording where it cannot be surreptitiously found. Better yet, live broadcast on the internet. Another suggestion, do not look at any documents while anyone other than her lawyer is present.

Standard disclaimers... IANAL
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:03am

This is why I would never consider working for any 3 letter agency. I dont always disagree with their ideas, but the way they do their job is just so scummy and low-life that I would be embarrassed to tell anyone where I worked.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:06am

Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
Re: the continued insistence on a physical meetup

Maybe they didn't want the NSA listening in.
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Pixelation, 5 May 2016 @ 11:11am

Rendition?
Sounds like she might be "disappeared"...
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:23am

Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
One has to wonder what laws the FBI intends breaking in her case.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:24am

Re: Re:
I can see the headlines:
"TOR software developed by Isis, with financing from the US government!"
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:25am

Considering how the FBI ignore laws that protect American citizens it is highly likely it has something to do with harrassing her out of spite for refusing to do whatever they want.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:25am

Imagine: Intercepted communication between Bad Guy A and Bad Guy B says "We should talk with Isis to see if we could co-ordinate Operation JointOpBigSecretPlot up using Tor"

If bad guys wanted to mess with the agencies, they could easily play confuse-a-cat by sprinkling the names of real people around.
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Blackfiredragon13 (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:25am

Her name is Isis
That's more than enough reason for these guys. If a check with "Isis" in the memo field sets off alarms, then someone with that as their actual name will receive 20X the scrutiny.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:29am

Re: Rendition?
That would likely do exactly the opposite of what they want. It sounds like they want to serve her with a gag order and then compel her to do something to the TOR code.

Of course, the fact that they stated that the situation is now in hand implies that after failing with her, they approached one of her colleagues and got what they wanted. Getting her would just be an added precaution.

So: a thorough review of all recent TOR code check-ins as well as all future check-ins from anyone who might be under a gag order is in order.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:35am

Imagineering
Usually the FBI uses folks with not very much in the thinking department when they make up scenarios and then charge their coerced accomplice with a crime. This time the are obviously going a different route, but it certainly raises the question, do they think Isis is enough of a nerd that here awareness of the world is lacking so that they might pull one of their bonehead tricks on her?

The other thought that comes to mind is something that occurred to me the other day reading about someone being arrested for child porn when they (man and wife) (not quietly, but very publicly) ran a TOR exit node. Are they going to try to hold her responsible for something SODD (some other dude did) by claiming that that document they were worried about was 'on her computer' or some such crap?
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:37am

Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
They abandoned that method about a year ago.

It's too bad, because all you had to do, to get them off your case, was to insist on tape-recording the interview. Invariably, the much-insisted-as-crucial interview would be deemed not-so-necessary.
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Paul Renault (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:38am

Re: Re: Re:
Sigh... I logged in to my password manager, just to log in here, so I could reply... And I forgot 'step 2)'. No profit for me.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:42am

Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
Or just meet at the US embassy in Berlin...
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That One Guy (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:48am

Re: Rendition?
Yeah, in her shoes I would never set foot on US soil at this point, if she wants to meet up with family or friends from the US they can fly to her, it's far too risky for her to go to the US.
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Whatever (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:50am

Just a guess...
I would be making a guess here, but let me show you how I add it up:

The FBI has "documents" they want to talk to her about.

The FBI wants an in person meeting, in the US.

My guess is that they have (what they feel is) just about enough to arrest her and charge her with something, and her answers to certain questions related perhaps to what work she specifically did or some action she may have taken would be the trigger.

My suggestion for her is to stay in Germany and don't come back under any circumstances. Perhaps at best meet with the FBI in a nice public place in Germany, perhaps with the media nearby.

TOR is a great idea and very useful, but it creates an incredibly complex web of legal ramifications. I think she is about to meet one of those "rams" head on.
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Jnite (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:52am

Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
Everything about this that you mentioned screams, "Warning, they are going to do something awful to you!" I don't care what country you are from, I would assume you would immediately be jailed and tortured upon arrival after hearing all of this.
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That One Guy (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:52am

Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
A US embassy is considered US soil, so no, meeting there would be a very foolish idea on her part.
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Violynne (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:03pm

Re:
That's precisely what I noticed as well.

FBI: "We need some paperwork cleared up."
Atty: "What paperwork."

FBI: "Uh... hold on a second."
Atty: [gets dial tone]

FBI: "Us again. Your client, we need her again."
Atty: "Why?"

FBI: "Just... get her here."
Isis: "WTF, FBI?!?"

All in all, if someone can have the feds come slamming down on an innocent person over ISIS beer funds, I can only imagine the abject horror of anyone actually named Isis, who is probably now on more watch lists than a TV guide.

That's probably what the FBI wants to confirm, but are too fucking stupid just to say it.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 12:10pm

Re: Re: Re:
Ah, so thats why they have been calling ISIL ISIS!
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Casey Harris Sr, 5 May 2016 @ 12:17pm

FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
Slow news day when time is wasted on a whiner stressed out over a simple FBI request to talk. I have been contacted by the FBI on 4 occasions and my meetings, without a lawyer, were cordial & professional. No empathy for Isis not taking the time to help the good guys.
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John Fenderson (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:24pm

Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
Since when is the FBI "the good guys"?
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I.T. Guy, 5 May 2016 @ 12:25pm

Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
On the street if someone says to you "C'mere lets talk." Or "Hey, jiMMi is looking for you, he wants to talk." You better be ready for a fight.
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DannyB (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:29pm

Re: Rendition?
Unlikely, I think.

More likely, I think, is that the FBI has obtained a court order to unlock her smart phone. Her fingerprint is insufficient because the FBI may need to unlock the phone multiple times, on multiple occasions during its investigation.

So the FBI has obtained a court order to remove her finger.

This seems more in the character and nature of the FBI.
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DannyB (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:32pm

Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
Regarding your question, there may have been a time in the past when the the FBI was the good guys. But I can't define exactly when that was.
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I.T. Guy, 5 May 2016 @ 12:32pm

Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
You sir are an idiot. I doubt very much that the EffBeeEye came to talk to you about anything. Any NORMAL human being would be scared shitless and IMMEDIATELY would contact a lawyer. Anything else is just foolish. Most Americans go through their whole life never heaving a "meeting" with the FBI. I call bullshit.
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I.T. Guy, 5 May 2016 @ 12:33pm

Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
"Having"
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DannyB (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:35pm

Re: Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
I want it tape recorded -- where the recording is preserved in real time at distant locations.

If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide.
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DannyB (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:37pm

Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
The answer is probably classified.
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Richard (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
If I were her I would suggest meeting at the Kremlin.

Probably the safest place.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 12:47pm

Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
Well, I have had the FBI ring my doorbell when doing a background check on neighbors, those went OK.

Makes me wonder who they called on when doing my background check when I was up for a Federal job.
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reader person, 5 May 2016 @ 12:49pm

this is the worst part of the entire saga >>>

My mother assumed that, if it were really important, the agent would call her. He did, while she was at work a couple days later. (As an aside: that any random FBI agent has the ability to learn someone’s personal cell phone number and use it — uninvited — is, in my opinion, extremely threatening and unacceptable.)
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 12:50pm

Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
I'm always reminded of the user elodieunderglass over at Captain Awkward, and Questions #322&#323.

Clearly, the FBI is employing rapists and stalkers to act like terrorists.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 12:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
Isn't that the main use of classification, hiding the government wrongdoing from the citizens.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:19pm

Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
Of those four occassions, did any of them start off in a way even vaguely similar to that described here?

* Attempt to contact a relative instead of contacting you directly
* Refuse to discuss the nature of the inquiry, even when specifically prompted to do so
* Explicit indication that a lawyer is unwelcome and will be excluded on the first opportunity, while again refusing to discuss why contact is even required
* Use unspecified methods to enable contacting your relatives on the pretense of being unable to use those same unspecified methods to contact you
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:32pm

Re:
Are you kidding me? Getting your cell number or a relative's cell is trivial.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:40pm

Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
add to that list
* indicate they wanted to serve a subpoena upon you.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:41pm

Re: Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
because that time did not exist, from BEFORE its inception, it evolved from orgs which trampled on rights, and run by total slimeballs like anslinger and j edna hoover, TRAITORS to the constitution...
google 'palmer raids' to see how much those scumsuckers cared about the constitution...
those orgs have NOTHING to do with crime and keeping us safe, but are ALL about spying on, intimidating, and framing any and all TRUE patriots who dare to speak against Empire...
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:41pm

Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
This is not the best advice. The proper procedure is, DO NOT SPEAK ANY WORDS WHATSOEVER. Stand there like a lamp post, and SAY NOTHING. Pressure will be applied, threats will be made, SAY NOTHING. Don't even nod or shake your head.

Do not attempt to record, you could be charged with felony wiretapping or who knows what. Reach into your pocket for a smartphone? Great way to get shot to death. 'The suspect made a furtive movement', 'The suspect reached for a weapon', the report will say.

Stand still and BE SILENT. Wait for them to go away, however long it takes.
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Bruce E (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 1:42pm

Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
open(BRAIN, ") {
print MOUTH "Uppon information and belief, to the best of my recollection, and I have to say, my recollection isn't 100%, ", $_;
}
close(BRAIN)
close(MOUTH)
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:44pm

Re: Re:
Getting your cell number or a relative's cell is trivial.
I was not aware that all cell numbers were trivially and automatically public, and it seems that neither GP nor Isis Lovecruft were aware of it either. Would you care to demonstrate by providing the cell number of a randomly chosen individual, such as a Kelvin Porter? If it helps, I think he lives in or near Atlanta. Details for how you obtained it would be appreciated as well.
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Bruce E (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 1:45pm

Re: Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
Gah typos and illegal characters..;
open(BRAIN, ") { print MOUTH "Uppon information and belief, to the best of my recollection, and I have to say, my recollection isn't 100%, ", $_; } close(BRAIN) close(MOUTH)
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:45pm

Ha this is hilarious. This woman is a self-described anarchist and is now complaining because the FBI wants to talk to her. You can't make this stuff up...
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 1:56pm

Re:
In this case, those who appear to practising anarchy, that is living without the rule of law, are the FBI.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 2:01pm

Re: Rendition?
Visibility is her best protection against being disappeared. She wants to make absolutely certain her absence would be notice by more than just her family.
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PRMan (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 2:11pm

Re:
Yeah, I call BS. If her name is Isis, there's no way she got on a plane...
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 2:11pm

Re: Re:
orly? How is law enforcement requesting to talk to a self-described anarchist "living without the rule of law"? Hmm?
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 2:14pm

Re:
She works on cryptographic platforms and platforms that allow for anonymous communication, in an environment where the FBI is very publicly on-record as being rabidly anti-crypto and anti-anonymity.

Doing the math, the odds that such a meeting would end up going well for her are sufficiently small it would be appropriate to express them in scientific notation.

Her making noise - and lots of it - about the situation is her best defense to being put in a box (either literal or figurative) she can't escape from.
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Anonymous Howard, 5 May 2016 @ 2:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide.

Wrong is a helluva subjective word these days, especially when government actors are involved.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 2:25pm

Re: Re:
oh yes, she's just a harmless coder, nothing more. uh huh.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 2:30pm

Re: Re: Re:
Threatening to find her on the street to avoid the presence and support of her legal representative.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 2:32pm

Re: Re: Re:
Oh yes, it's just the harmless little FBI, nothing more. uh huh.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 2:58pm

I'm having a problem with her warrant canary. She states that if all goes well, it'll be updated every six months. Really? Doesn't that also mean that if things don't go well, it could also be up to six months before we're made aware of it? Federal agencies could cause a lot of damage in the mean time. You would think she would update it right away.
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Ven, 5 May 2016 @ 3:00pm

Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
If they were so worried about some one listening in they could have just used Tor...

Oh wait, maybe they wanted to use Tor, but needed some tech support to get it working.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 3:04pm

Re: Re: Re:
oh noes, its a blatant troll, lets let them keep rambling.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 3:04pm

Re:
You are overlooking the real message, the FBI are after me, so check all my code submissions.
The thing with open source is that anyone can look at the source code, and all the upstream distributions compile from source. This makes it more difficult to get a back-door in place, as it cannot be done via a sabotaged binary.
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Jon jonzz, 5 May 2016 @ 3:11pm

re:
Worth noting, the canary does not load.
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Hephaestus (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 3:26pm

I have this feeling ...
Just a feeling, this about getting her to backdoor TOR, national security gag order included, and threats of jail time if she doesn't.
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TRX (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 3:36pm

"Sure, I'd be happy to meet with you. At my convenience, with my lawyer present. Oh, and I hope you won't mind, but I'll be live-streaming our meeting and the video will go up on YouTube."
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phx, 5 May 2016 @ 3:55pm

Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
They want her opinion on some documents, and I take it from the physical meetup that these are probably either classified or part of some ongoing investigation.

My guess is that there isn't any conspiritard bullshit going on, and that they've Party Vanned some dude who was an exit node, and need someone to verify/tear apart his defence.

The thinly veiled 'you might be in trouble' routine is to make her pay attention.
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Atkray (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 4:26pm

Re: Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
add to that list

* clearly state the cites where agents were actively watching for you.
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art guerrilla (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 5:06pm

Re: Re: Re:
thank you, a non-cow...
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Zem, 5 May 2016 @ 5:07pm

It's clear the FBI didn't want the NSA to know what they were doing. Phone call ? might as well shout out your meeting in the NSA foyer.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 6:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I trust the FBI over a self-described anarchist and hacker every day of the week.
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Anonymous Hero, 5 May 2016 @ 6:42pm

Poooor Isis...
Too much Tor sympathizing by shills here. Tor is a scummy agency run by amoral punks who think that they're hot shits who can get away with anything they want.

I think that this is either a collaborative hoax by the respective agencies involved - for some reason - or the whiny brat actually did something and that's why her "Oh, God! Everyone support me!" ass was hightailing it to Germany.

Let's not forget: For a long time Tor strung everyone along on the crowdsourcing myth, where they portrayed themselves as honest little David up against privacy-invading Goliath, who was backed by U.S. spy agencies who were always trying to hack the Tor network. They regularly fanned the flames of this lie with reports about attacks by these agencies, until they were exposed as, rather, being funded by them.

Then, all of a sudden, they started having a lot of public drama about internal harassment and promoting women, over the asshole, Andrea Sheperd, who started a lot it. Most of what we hear from them is devious bullshit and this probably is too.

Seriously..."Lovecruft"? Probably another lame pop culture rip off (of Lovecraft). Even the name is made up.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 6:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
What they said sounded, to me, like a physical threat intended to instill fear in her. And I thought terroristic threats were illegal. Silly me.

Tell me again, who are the terrorists?
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 6:50pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
If I were her I would suggest meeting at the Kremlin.

Probably the safest place.

Funny but sad that it has come to that.
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obscurebug (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 8:34pm

It's a trap
Of course this is a trap. Whenever law enforcement says things like "they just want to clear things up" or "we just want to have a chat" but get evasive providing any details other than to further their agenda means it's a ploy because they want to confront you.

Saying a person isn't a target - just means they don't have paperwork filled out on you at that point in time. It also gets around them needing to talk to your lawyer first, hence grabbing you before you have representation.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 9:06pm

America the land of illusionary freedom that the rest of the world apparently hates you guys so much for.
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Cranky old git, 5 May 2016 @ 9:44pm

Dev's blog offline?
I wanted to read about this in her own words, but I'm having no luck getting to Lovecruft's blog. (I even tried via Tor, naturally!)

Has anyone else here been able to read the post Mike linked to in the first paragraph?
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Anonymous Coward, 5 May 2016 @ 11:12pm

Re: Dev's blog offline?
Apparently it's offline. (Friday)
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HegemonicDistortion (profile), 5 May 2016 @ 11:30pm

Re: Dev's blog offline?
Yep, I got the same. Google says the robots.txt file tells it to bug off, so there's not even a cached copy.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 1:01am

Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
If that was the case, why not allow her lawyer to be present? He does not need to be able to see the documents unless she is being asked to sign them.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 1:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Do you really prefer the tyrannical anarchy of gun toting badge wearers over the co-operative anarchy of people working on open source and free software projects? Are you a Masochist?
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unknown, 6 May 2016 @ 2:01am

Is she still alive?
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lykouricon, 6 May 2016 @ 2:59am

The blog canary listed in this article is now unreachable...
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HegemonicDistortion (profile), 6 May 2016 @ 3:53am

Re:
The whole website is down right now. On Twitter she last fielded a complaint from someone about her website "burn[ing] up a lot of mobile bandwidth" (wut??) and she said she would fix it, so I don't know if it's down for that reason, or for... some other reason. Would seem like a silly thing to worry about when this story is blowing up.
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Groaker (profile), 6 May 2016 @ 4:37am

Re: Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
IANAL either, but I recall a case where just being silent was not sufficient. The right to silence has to be specifically invoked.
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DannyB (profile), 6 May 2016 @ 6:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
I mean the government actors have nothing to hide, and therefore should not object to a recording, especially where the recording is preserved in real time at multiple remote locations.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 6:14am

Re: Just a guess...
Wow, if Whatever's on her side she must be in *serious* trouble!
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 6:16am

Re:
no, this is the worst part of the entire saga >>>

homemade vegan gluten-free brownies
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John Fenderson (profile), 6 May 2016 @ 6:57am

Re: Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
Yes, or if that was the case then why didn't they say so?
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John Fenderson (profile), 6 May 2016 @ 7:01am

Re: It's a trap
"Saying a person isn't a target - just means they don't have paperwork filled out on you at that point in time."

It could mean that. It could also just mean they're lying.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 7:34am

The sinister side of me contemplates the possibility that the FBI wants her to install a secret backdoor in Tor.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 8:49am

she is a girl, she has LITERALLY nothing to worry about, except maybe what every other girl in germoney has to worry about. that being rapefugees of course
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cf, 6 May 2016 @ 10:09am

Re: Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
During my friend's background check, which I barely remembered him warning me about because I was hungover when they called, the agent asked me if my friend had ever traveled outside the US. And I said no. Then, a few questions later I remembered that he had been an exchange student in Japan for a summer when we were freshmen in high school, so I interrupted the agent to tell him that.

agent: Okay, but do you still think he's loyal to the United States, though?

me: Well, now that you mention it... he did seem... shorter when he returned from that trip. In the back of my mind I've always kinda wondered if they, you know... replaced him.

agent: Okay... we have just a few more questions to get through.

When I told him later that I'd been playing fast and loose with his career plans, my friend practically shat a brick.
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Yes, I know I'm commenting anonymously, 6 May 2016 @ 10:41am

A plethora of incompetence
How incompetent is the FBI?
It cannot even find one known, normal citizen?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 6:53pm

Re: Re:
This means nothing...backdoors by nation states have been hidden in plain sight in open source software for years. Open source is rife with bugs and vulnerabilities, which invariably lead to 0day exploits.

The three letter agencies have been known to recruit developers to plant bugs in the OSS community.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 7:03pm

Re: Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
The only thing she's missing at this point is a Target Letter, which will be arriving at her attorney's office 48 hours after she talks with the FBI. They will say she's gone from a "Person of Interest" to a Target of their Investigation as a result of their "conversations" with her.

There's only one reason why they want to talk to her without an attorney...so she'll speak freely and possibly incriminate herself.

By being a major Tor developer, she has a massive target on her back. Speaking as someone who has been sent two target letters from the DOJ, she rightfully should be crapping her pants right about now. She needs to get to a country that doesn't have extradition treaties with the US as she's in legitimate legal danger.
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Rekrul, 6 May 2016 @ 10:57pm

Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
The thinly veiled 'you might be in trouble' routine is to make her pay attention.

Yes, because deception and intimidation are SOP for American law enforcement.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 11:03pm

Re: Re: Re:
Got proof? Or just being an asshole?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 May 2016 @ 11:06pm

Re:
Damn son, you're trolling is weak. Grow a pair and at least have the balls to be racist.
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AM, 7 May 2016 @ 5:55am

Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
You a TOR developer too?
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John Fenderson (profile), 7 May 2016 @ 9:53am

Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
An awful lot of perfectly normal people would not contact a lawyer because they can't afford to.
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Anonymous Coward, 7 May 2016 @ 1:17pm

Re: Re: Re:
It's "Tor", not "TOR".
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Anonymous Coward, 7 May 2016 @ 3:29pm

don't fuck with Europeans people, if you want war you will have hard time, It will not be like ww2
this time european union vs USA
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Anonymous Coward, 7 May 2016 @ 5:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's "Tor", not "TOR".

it's 'tor'.
my shift key is broken.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 May 2016 @ 6:43pm

Re: Re: Just a guess...
Whatever's not on her side. In his terms, she's a filthy criminal who worked on software that is clearly designed for aiding and abetting other criminals. He's on "her side" in the same way a jock tells a nerd to "prepare" his anus.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 May 2016 @ 7:21pm

cant imagine that USA harrases the human rights like this
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Wendy Cockcroft, 9 May 2016 @ 5:53am

Re:
Anonymous Coward, May 5th, 2016 @ 1:45pm:

the point of "freedom" is to be allowed to do what you want as long as it doesn't break any laws. I'm horrified to learn that you want to live in a world where, instead of free association, you have approved association, and may only associate with individuals and groups approved by your oberschtompenfuhrer, or whatever.

Lovecruft's decision to proclaim herself an anarchist came from an erroneous belief that she is a free woman in a free country. How appalling it is that you're so eager to consolidate the proof that she is wrong.
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btr1701 (profile), 9 May 2016 @ 8:21am

Stress
> It doesn't matter if the FBI says she's "not a target,"
> having the FBI come looking for you can really shake you
> up.

What the heck is that supposed to mean? Is the FBI supposed to stop investigating cases altogether because asking people questions might stress them out too much?
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btr1701 (profile), 9 May 2016 @ 8:23am

Re: Re: It's a trap
> > "Saying a person isn't a target - just means they don't
> > have paperwork filled out on you at that point in time."

> It could mean that. It could also just mean they're lying.

Or it could mean they're telling the truth and the person isn't a target of the investigation.
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btr1701 (profile), 9 May 2016 @ 8:24am

Re: re:
> Worth noting, the canary does not load.

Loads just fine for me.
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btr1701 (profile), 9 May 2016 @ 8:31am

Re: Re: Re:
A search of any of the big commercial databases will readily bring up cell numbers associated with people's names.

It's hardly difficult or uncommon, nor is the ability to do it limited to law enforcement. Anyone who subscribes and pays the fee can access the info.

And since when in the entire history of telephones have you either legally or culturally needed a pre-invitation to call someone before phoning them up?
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btr1701 (profile), 9 May 2016 @ 8:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
> When I told him later that I'd been playing fast and
> loose with his career plans, my friend practically shat a
> brick.

Wow, you're an awesome friend.
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btr1701 (profile), 9 May 2016 @ 8:43am

Re: Re: Lovecruft FBI meet
> This is not the best advice. The proper procedure is, DO
> NOT SPEAK ANY WORDS WHATSOEVER. Stand there like a lamp
> post, and SAY NOTHING. Pressure will be applied, threats
> will be made, SAY NOTHING. Don't even nod or shake your
> head.

That's actually extremely poor advice, Mr. Internet Lawyer Genius Person, considering the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled that a person has to affirmatively and verbally assert their right to remain silent in order for it to have legal effect. Sitting there "like a lamp post" will allow the government to argue that your silence in the face of accusations that would provoke a response in a normal person is evidence of guilt.

Your license to practice Internet Comment Thread Law should be revoked.
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me, 9 May 2016 @ 9:56am

Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
Absolutely correct in insisting on the Lawyers involvement. Nothing out that seems trustworthy.
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me, 9 May 2016 @ 10:00am

Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
Bullshit, everything here is the opposite, she had every reason to have her Lawyer do the talking. The circumstances reek.
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me, 9 May 2016 @ 10:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
second case in a short period of time (The folks who had the exit node in washington being the other), if you're involved in the TOR project you may see FBI intimidation (which is exactly what this was)
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onthenet, 9 May 2016 @ 4:13pm

Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
It sound like LEAs go crazy
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onthenet, 9 May 2016 @ 4:13pm

Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
It sounds like LEAs go crazy
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Anonymous Coward, 12 May 2016 @ 3:30am

Re: Re:
If they can't tell why they need a meeting with her, there's guaruanteed to be a NDA to sign before anything is shown. So even in best case, that they only need her for consulting on a case unrelated to herself, it would be hard for her to find employment withing encryption or anonimity software development after it.
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nope, 12 May 2016 @ 3:45am

Re: Re: Taking notes out of 'Creepy Stalkers 101' I see
my thoughts exactly! well a much more rational mature version of my thoughts.
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nope, 12 May 2016 @ 3:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
hahaha ive done something similar but this was genius!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 May 2016 @ 3:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
this.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 May 2016 @ 3:59am

they didn't show up at the airport gate. that is enough to tell you to fckn relax. then your stuff comes in ONE TIME!? my renewed license arrived at my home via the feather from forest gump. they caught some dude making kiddy porn, help them and shut that dude down!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 May 2016 @ 4:00am

Re:
"ON TIME"*
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Anonymous Coward, 17 May 2016 @ 8:01pm

Re:
Why should she change her name? She's not the one who suck.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 May 2016 @ 11:10pm

@isislovecruft
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Peter, 18 May 2016 @ 9:40am

Re: Re: FBI Trying to contact a Tor Developer
People call other people all the time and ask for a meeting. Then they work out a time and place to meet, assuming both parties are interested in the meeting. Seems like the FBI need to find someone else to ask their questions, since Isis isn't willing.

Eventually, they sometimes just show up at the home, hoping to catch the person at home. Doesn't really seem like "harassment" to me. I've had 2 stalkers which behaved worse. I've also been met in my office, at work, by 2 FBI guys. They were checking a reference for a friend who used me on her clearance paperwork. I knew this months earlier, but had forgotten about it completely. My office at the time, was inside a secure facility, so they had to be escorted inside.

OTOH, the FBI **has** been lying about all sorts of things the last 15 years. They could easily lie about the purpose for the meeting. Their previous, recent, actions, have caused this to be one of the first thoughts for paranoid people. That doesn't mean some people shouldn't be paranoid. Especially when the FBI is trying for months to get a meeting. Mom always said, "you capture more flies with honey than vinegar."

It is smart not to use a phone, though bouncing off a VoIP service in a different country could be sufficient. That way, GCHQ could listen as well. ;)

If the US Gov intends to entrap her somehow, I can see why she wouldn't be willing to talk with them. Seems their actions and general distrust of their motives have come back to bite them.
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