Tech Companies Continue To Tell Courts To Reject Trump Travel Exec Order

from the speaking-up dept

Fri, Apr 21st 2017 2:38pm — Mike Masnick

Earlier this week we noted that 162 tech companies (including us) had signed an amicus brief for the appeal in the 4th Circuit (in Virginia) arguing that President Trump's travel ban executive order was unlawful. The same group of companies (plus one more -- as it looks like Pandora was added to the latest) have filed basically the same amicus brief in the appeal in the 9th Circuit (which is the appeal of the decision in Hawaii that a smaller group had filed an amicus brief on as well). As with last time, people are going to come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories over this, but the fact is this is an issue that matters to many, many people who work at these companies, and the companies have committed to speaking out about it.

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Filed Under: donald trump, executive order, immigration, tech companies, travel ban

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Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 2:47pm

It's just more human failure
Tech execs are not necessarily consciously bad people they just believe woo like uploading our brains into the network and similar stupid, so of course they object to things that are obviously discriminatory mostly because reasons but though insane and damaging to the world at large they are not intrinsically evil
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 2:51pm
  
  Re: It's just more human failure
  What.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 3:02pm
    
    Re: Re: It's just more human failure
    yes I can see how I was unclear, tech execs though fully on the side of Fascism are not intrinsically evil, they are mostly just not to bright and are deeply confused about reality, so because they do not actually hate Muslims etc, they oppose discriminatory practices, but their net effect on the planet is pretty much destroying the world
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    - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 3:52pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: It's just more human failure
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 3:54pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: It's just more human failure
      Ah yes, you should always be very very clear about exactly which prejudices you're professing. What would it do to your reputation, if people should suppose you're the WRONG kind of bigot?
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      - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 4:11pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: It's just more human failure
        We know the answer to this question, being against fascism and asserting that individual human life has value will get you universally banned from society, all of silicon valley agrees, as well as the three letter agencies, workers for military contractors, senators, congressmen, and media moguls how could all those rich and beautiful people be wrong?
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        Vel the Engimatic, 21 Apr 2017 @ 4:54pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's just more human failure
        I surely hope you're just a troll, cause I'm not buying anything you just said.
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        Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 5:55pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's just more human failure
        So? you want to contradict me make an argument as it is you are the troll
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        Anonymous Coward, 22 Apr 2017 @ 3:06am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's just more human failure
        "So? you want to contradict me make an argument as it is you are the troll"
        
        naw, pretty sure it's you
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 2:59pm

4th Circuit is going to uphold it and so will the S/C.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 4:29pm
  
  Re:
  Oh, is that when we're going to get so tired of all the winning? All the losing has made me forget.
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- JEDIDIAH, 22 Apr 2017 @ 1:34pm
  
  Get ready for the reality pill.
  Why would they do that? Trump has done nothing that is outside the law or his power to do. Actual ILA members see it going the other way.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 3:07pm

Even if it is for a good cause, isn't this type of moneyed influence the kind of thing we should be wary of?
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- My_Name_Here, 21 Apr 2017 @ 4:36pm
  
  Re:
  You should be concerned. It's way to easy to see Tech is all over this because it would make it harder for them to import cheaper workers, which would ruin their business models.
  
  It's not about the regular people, which makes it as money influenced as it gets.
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- Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Apr 2017 @ 4:43pm
  
  Re:
  Even if it is for a good cause, isn't this type of moneyed influence the kind of thing we should be wary of?
  
  I'm not clear on how this is moneyed influence? Amicus briefs do not involve money. They are third parties weighing in with the court to provide outside perspective and lots of different groups have done so (in fact, it's probably more common for non-profit/civil society groups to file amicus briefs than businesses).
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  - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 4:53pm
    
    Re: Re:
    >Amicus briefs do not involve money.
    
    Companies pay gobs of money to these lawyers to advance persuasive interpretations of the law that serve their own interests. This is real power that comes from wealth generated by these firms.
    
    I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but surely you can see how it is undemocratic.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 5:13pm
    
    Re: Re:
    Here's an example: Bowman v. Monsanto:
    
    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130513/12113523062/monsanto-wins-case-seed-patents-plan ting-your-own-legally-purchased-grown-seeds-can-be-infringing.shtml
    
    You wrote: "Given the fire power that came out in support of Monsanto -- including the federal government -- it shouldn't come as a huge surprise that the Supreme Court just gave a complete and total victory to Monsanto."
    
    A key part of that support were those briefs.
    
    http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/bowman-v-monsanto-co/
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    - Winston, 24 Apr 2017 @ 6:35am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      When Mike is referring to “moneyed influence” I think he is referring to traditional lobbying efforts where companies or groups use money to influence members of Congress. Comparing this kind of moneyed influence to filing an amicus brief doesn’t make a lot of sense. The judge who is going to be reading and taking into account the amicus brief is not the beneficiary of that money spent, where as in traditional lobbying the member of Congress is the beneficiary as they are receiving campaign donations and most likely voting on bills on way or another to benefit the highest paying constituents.
      
      I don’t dispute the fact that an amicus brief can influence the decision of a court and if your amicus brief has merit, I would assume it will be taken into consideration. Surely, one can pay a lot of money to a law firm in getting an amicus brief written to support their position but that money spent is not benefiting the court or judge.
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      - Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2017 @ 5:11pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Whether you're lobbying the legislative or the judicial it really makes no difference. It's the lobbying itself, money that buys privileged speech and the power that affords.
        
        Remember this discussion next time there is a decision influenced in this matter that troubles you.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:04pm
    
    Re: Re:
    To be fair these companies and this sector is not exactly neutral on this topic, they have a real vested interest in importing cheap(er) labour and open borders for capital so although I think the motivation here is probably not purely financial it's silly to say they have no interest the politic of immigration are of great importance to tech companies
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    - JEDIDIAH, 22 Apr 2017 @ 1:37pm
      
      Hackers from Elbonia
      I dunno. I don't really see a profit motive here. It seems more like virtue signaling and pandering to liberal customers. The relevant countries are not exactly hot beds of technical talent. Some are failed states.
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Digitari, 21 Apr 2017 @ 4:44pm

Anti American
It's a shame that so many of you, (that enjoy the freedoms this country has set the standard for) want to put others that come from countries with fewer freedoms, before the citizens of this country. How fortunate for you others are willing to die for your freedom to feel and do this.
The sad part is these same people that do come here will not try and make their own countries better.
Some of them even protest because we are not more like their countries of origin.

I'm not making a judgment per se, I just don't see what the end result would be that benefits the whole.
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- Vel the Engimatic, 21 Apr 2017 @ 5:07pm
  
  Re: Anti American
  Did you just completely skip history classes as a kid? Cause I can't see any other way that you would think like this, or you simply just completely forgot your history classes as a kid. Let me break it down for you.
  
  Allowing foreign nationals from the middle-east is not being anti-American. It never has been, and it never will be no matter how much you try to twist things. Being inclusive of other races and cultures is the main reason the United States truly started to thrive and build. It is because of immigrants that we even have the country we do today.
  
  So the only thing anti-American here, is trying to strip people of the freedom of choice to come here.
  
  The people who want to come here to get away from the shit happening in their own country are doing so because they feel powerless to stop what is happening there. It's kinda hard to make a united front against a terrorist group who basically came into vogue after Al Queda took a hit when Bin Laden went down.
  
  The people coming here are too scared to face ISIS, and after the shit we've seen the past few years since Bin Laden was killed, it's kinda hard not to see why unless you're just generally apathetic to the plights of people from other countries. You know, like <b>nationalist who only cares about the country they live in.</b> The truth of the matter is that the majority of the Muslim community in the Middle East (make no mistake, that's what the ban is all about) are powerless to fight ISIS. They may outnumber them, but how much do numbers matter when the said terrorists have military guns, ammo, and munitions on their side?
  
  The things you say here are completely and utterly thoughtless and made without care.
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  - Digitari, 21 Apr 2017 @ 5:49pm
    
    Re: Re: Anti American
    Please enlighten me as to where I said anything about the mid-east, and also enlighten me as to what benefit the American populous gets from 4th-century thinking, how is that progressive seeing as You brought it up. Yes, legal immigrants are fantastic, but bring folks into the country for cheap labor does not promote progress at all.It hurts everyone, including your standard of living. I'm sorry you feel the need for "immediate gratification", I could understand a permanent ban, that is not what this is. Maybe you should visit some of the places you are trying so hard to defend, I've been around the world, 3 times, in the Military, and never fired a shot in anger once.
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    - Anonymous Coward, 22 Apr 2017 @ 5:20am
      
      Re: Re: Re: Anti American
      The ban is not targeted enough.
      
      If you want to ban cheap illegal labour, there are much more targeted and better ways to do it:
      
      - Make it far easier to file for entrance abroad, so as to avoid illegals entering the country.
      
      - Restrict work visas a lot further to reduce the entrance of uneducated/unwanted workforce.
      
      - Actually enforce the existing laws by visiting suspected hosts of illegals and halt their employees activities (this is by far the hardest, but also the only way to get the situation under control if that is the way you want to deal with it)!
      
      If those things do not work, you are not doing it correctly. Banning someone on account of origin is not really dealing with the overacrhing issues of illegal imigrants or fanatic beliefs for that matter. Fanatical beliefs are an issue regarding visa restrictions and law enforcement agencies coordinating.
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  - Tin-Foil-Hat, 23 Apr 2017 @ 9:01pm
    
    Re: Re: Anti American
    I certainly don't question the right of immigrants' and the validity of their plight. I question why the only time anything gets done is when moneyed interests are using their influence. It's more of the same. People in this country deserve to be represented and not only when someone wealthy and influential gives the OK.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2017 @ 9:18pm
    
    Re: Re: Anti American
    wow."trying to strip people of their freedom to come here." wow.this from someone pointing a finger at another poster as someone who "skipped history lessons".
    
    Of course you realize foreigners have no "freedom" to come here which can be stripped away in the first place. Entry into the US or any other nation isn't a freedom or a right foreigners to that nation possess. It is a priviledge which can be withdrawn, suspended as President Trump is doing or qualified by the host country at will.
    
    Maybe you and the sad sacks at the crappy schools you went to who indoctrinated you should read actual laws instead of succumbing to empty globalist talking points and feelz.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:01pm
  
  Re: Anti American
  It's very appropriate that you titled your screen "Anti American."
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  - Digitari, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:10pm
    
    Re: Re: Anti American
    yes because Americans like Thomas Paine were so wrong, The immigrants from the past century embracing American society were so wrong.
    
    "But ISIS is scary" the British empire at the time was the dominant military on the planet.
    
    "But they are outnumbered"
    only 10% of the population started the American revolution
    
    who didn't study history?
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:17pm
  
  Re: Anti American
  Your making a "there are starving children in Africa" argument while it is true it's a stawman, allowing people into the country for places "...with fewer freedoms..." is not putting them "...before the citizens of this country..." unless you believe that allowing people to live in not warzones or in conditions of deprivation is putting them before us.
  
  "The sad part is these same people that do come here will not try and make their own countries better."
  Well this is true since most of the people that ARE let in are collaborators against their own countries so like you I regret their treason and even more that we encourage, coerced and demanded that they be traitors.
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  - Digitari, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:34pm
    
    Re: Re: Anti American
    I have no problem with women and children first, that is the law of lifeboats we are a "lifeboat"(this country). H1B visas are a horse of a different color entirely. Corporations are not concerned with "women and children" in general, they are and always will be concerned with profit. H1B visas are tied to profit, not humanitarianism.
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    - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 7:02pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Anti American
      Well this is a new argument since the one that started this thread was a jingoistic piece of nonsense, while I agree that corporations are not concerned with 'Women and children" I would suggest that by your own argument you are also not concerned with them and that you have no oblivious interested in humanitarianism either.
      So to use that as an argument now seems false and self serving
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      - Digitari, 21 Apr 2017 @ 7:39pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti American
        Of course, you do, because I was so against everything you feel, Sorry but I've seen the world, tell ya a little secret no matter how much you want to save the world, the world doesn't want to be saved.
        When you go out and experience it, you will find it to be true.
        
        I admit I am unconcerned, to the point I didn't have children myself because I know the world. I saw all this coming 25 years ago.
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        Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 9:17pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti American
        “We were somewhere around Barstow on the edge of the desert when the drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something like "I feel a bit lightheaded; maybe you should drive...." And suddenly there was a terrible roar all around us and the sky was full of what looked like huge bats, all swooping and screeching and diving around the car, which was going about a hundred miles an hour with the top down to Las Vegas.”
        
        your hallucinatory world my have taught you many things but real things about real people seems unlikely you come up with a different argument each time like throwing things against the wall to see what will stick.
        
        I have no idea what makes you think I want to save the world, I never said that, and your not against anything I feel your against making a rational argument and not in a fun drunk way but in a profoundly sad and incapable way and as for seeing it all 25 years ago.. you might have used that time to develop a coherent argument instead of just spouting jingoistic none sense and think of the children idiocy
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  - Anonymous Coward, 23 Apr 2017 @ 9:26pm
    
    Re: Re: Anti American
    as if H1B labor flooding tactics were some kind of humanitarian gesture by the likes of Google and Adobe, both caught dead to rights literally fixing wages through highly illegal no poaching agreements.
    
    There is exactly nothing wrong or unconstitutional about suspending immigration from nations Obama singled out as producers of terrorists until we can tighten up our screening process more.
    
    Smells like common sense to everyone outside of globalist coke snorter "visionaries" and SJW leftards.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 5:02pm

Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
1) Corporations are NOT persons; they are legal fictions that request from the public permission to even exist.

2) Corporations are supposed to serve us the public, not invite in foreigners in order to undermine domestic wages.

3) Corporations exist solely to "legalize" presence in public markets, so that a select few natural persons can gain profit without personal liability; therefore ALL that any corporation does is about gaining MONEY.

Then there's your Freudian slip that these corporations are TELLING another court what to do.

We live under full-blown fascism, it's just not mentioned as such by corporate-owned media outlets.

https://copia.is/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/sponsors.png
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:02pm
  
  Re: Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
  You have no idea what a corporation is.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:28pm
    
    Re: Re: Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
    NO YOU!
    
    Look while I don't think I agree with a bunch of the parent post, a NO YOU! response is unhelpful and verging on ad hominem, it is a legitimate question of why so many tech companies are spending money and signing on
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- Christenson, 21 Apr 2017 @ 6:51pm
  
  Re: Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
  Corporations exist to allow enterprises larger than any single individual to do large projects which are beneficial to everyone.
  
  No single individual could have built many of the things we depend on -- who should own the electric company? A giant steel mill? Google?
  
  With stock, they also allow the profits to be spread around.
  
  Now, those are ideals.....not to be confused with corruptions in practice...like Microsoft or Oracle, to name a few of our worse corporate citizens.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 7:20pm
    
    Re: Re: Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
    I am personally unclear why people are so unclear about so many things...
    
    Many things have been built by multiple individuals throughout history before the corporation Rome for instance built an entire civilization with no corporations in about 1000 years, corporations in early America existed to make a method of many (or in most cases several) people to combine their monetary resources to achieve some objective, the Brooklyn bridge latter to become such a joke is actually a good example) to share risk often on uncertain and difficult things, this is nothing like the current managed aggregated HFT that goes on mow, the Romans for all their faults built things that are still in use today aqueducts in Spain and well mostly water related stuff but they did real things and so did the Brooklyn bridge builders I doubt we will be able to say as much for facebook or even IBM in 100 years
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    - Christenson, 22 Apr 2017 @ 2:31pm
      
      Re: Re: Re: Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
      The Brooklyn Bridge is a wonderful example of what *can* be accomplished with a corporation...it is also clearly not the *only* way to do it.
      
      Not that there aren't some wierd distortions. Recall Chief Seattle: "You cannot eat money!". It's a means to an end..I do like my drinkable water, being able to drive around, not having to worry about polio...and not having to seriously worry about getting murdered when I leave my village.
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  - JEDIDIAH, 22 Apr 2017 @ 1:45pm
    
    Re: Re: Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
    Corporations are not people. They are the opposite of people. They are machines that shield their members from responsibility. They have no intelligence or conscience. Because of current permissive social norms, they are actively encouraged to be as destructive as possible.
    
    Microsoft and Oracle are just tips of the iceberg.
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- Anonymous Coward, 21 Apr 2017 @ 7:01pm
  
  Re: Not clear on how this is moneyed interests? That's because you're 1 percenter steeped in Ivy League corporatism.
  A corporation is considered a person under US law. The concept is called Corporate Person-hood. It's the reason why lobbying is legal.
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Richard (profile), 22 Apr 2017 @ 5:55am

Unedifying Gesture Politics
This is unedifying gesture politics - on both sides -

Trump made a knee-jerk statement about muslims following the San Bernardino attack. This played rather well in th polls - not surprising since the vast majority of US politicians - esp Obama - still espouse (at least publicly) the fantasy version of Islam which denies its history and attempts to disengage it from all responsibility for violent incidents.
Those who know better supported him (even if they disagreed with him on almost every issue) because for them he was the only show in town.

Now a couple of points about the proposal

1. Even Trump's original idea would have been ineffective as a practical measure, because the number of Muslims immigrating to the US is tiny compared to those already there.

2. The version actually proposed was clearly designed to be a sop to those who had backed them over the issue - whilst the use of the list of countries already identified by Obama was intended to get it through the legal process. Of course this proposal would have been even more ineffective because the list omits Saudi Arabia (source of the 9/11 attack) and Pakistan (source of the San Bernardino attack). Whilst most of the listed countries have never been the source of a terrorist (unless you include Steve Jobs!).

So Trump's ban was never ore than a gesture.

Similarly the legal challenges to it are pure gesture politics. Lots of people in prominent political/business positions don't like Trump and will do anything to slap him down. To my eyes the judgements against the ban look partisan and not an honest reading of the law. Similarly the Amicus briefs look like nothing more than virtue signalling.

True a few people have been unfairly treated because of the ban - but this is mostly the effect of the crass way in which US petty authority operates.

Of course now the same bunch of politicians who opposed the ban and tried to blame Russia for Trump's victory have provoked him into attacking a Syrian airbase - which turned out to be militarily ineffctive and just added to the toll of human misery in the country.

https://digitalempire.wordpress.com/2017/04/09/the-missing-tomahawk-missiles-hit-a-nearby-village-an d-killed-innocent-civilains/
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- JEDIDIAH, 22 Apr 2017 @ 1:46pm
  
  Re: Unedifying Gesture Politics
  The crocodile tears you're shedding for members of a brutal tyrants Air Force are rather amusing.
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dr evil, 22 Apr 2017 @ 7:15pm

i dont believe it
if all of these caring companies agree to pay a premium or even match normal US wages, I will believe their motives are a little more pure. for now, what T requested IS perfectly legal..... read up on it
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Tin-Foil-Hat, 23 Apr 2017 @ 8:52pm

Wrong
The travel ban is wrong. If it's lifted because of the influence of a privileged class both are wrong.
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My_Name_Here, 23 Apr 2017 @ 11:31pm

If tech companies are against it, then I am all for it. It is very enjoyable to watch Masnick squirm.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2017 @ 6:13am

The travel ban wasn't judged illegal because of banning immigration, as the ruling stated that it was a ban because of religion. Even though there was nothing in the ban that talked of religion, the judge ruled that because of speeches by Trump during the campaign and later, it was a Muslim ban.

Of course, couldn't someone use this exact same logic to claim that Trump was bombing certain countries because they are Muslims? Could a court rule that his military action is unconstitutional?

Tell me why they wouldn't be the same?
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Apr 2017 @ 6:49am

Globalists support globalism. Details at 11.
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