ICE Set Up A Fake College To Bust Immigrants For Trying To Legally Stay In The Country While They Earned Degrees
from the ridding-the-country-of-dangerous-degree-holders dept
We already know ICE can't find enough dangerous immigrants to satisfy President Trump's absurd fantasies of a nation overrun by foreign murderers, rapists, and terrorists. But it appears the agency has completely given up on its "worst of the worst" targeting. According to an unsealed indictment and recently-released ICE emails, the agency blew a lot of man hours and taxpayer money on rounding up [squints at court documents] immigrants attempting to further their educations.
The Department of Homeland Security set up a fake university in Farmington Hills to target foreign students who wanted to stay in the U.S. without proper authorization, according to federal indictments unsealed in Detroit on Wednesday.
Eight people were arrested and indicted in an immigration fraud case for conspiracy to commit visa fraud and harboring aliens for profit, said the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan Matthew Schneider.
Six of them were arrested in metro Detroit, one in Florida and another in Virginia. The students enrolled at the fake university with the intent to obtain jobs under a student visa program called CPT (Curricular Practical Training) that allows students to work in the U.S., said prosecutors.
This is ICE's take on the arrests. What actually happened here is something bordering on entrapment.
The students seeking to attend the fake university had expiring visas. They were allowed to stay in the US and work as long as they continued their education. As long as these students continued working towards approved degrees, they were allowed to stay in the country. A limited supply of H-1B visas means attending school or exiting the country for most of the immigrants involved.
The government portrays this as "staying in the US without proper authorization." But the university offered proper authorization under this immigration program. Rather than do nothing and sweep up students whose visas were expired, ICE decided to set up a bogus university as a honeypot for foreign students working against the clock to get their stays extended.
The emails obtained by the Detroit Free Press show an ugly, calculated move by ICE to both rob immigrants of their money and their chance to stay in the United States. The agency went so far as to obtain bogus accreditation from a national accreditation agency in order to better dupe unaware immigrants.
Here's a partial list of the deception ICE engaged in to round up foreign students.
Undercover investigators with the Department of Homeland Security registered the University of Farmington with the state of Michigan as a university using a fake name.
At the request of DHS, a national accreditation agency listed the University of Farmington as being accredited in order to help deceive prospective students.
The university was also placed by federal investigators on the website of ICE as an university approved by them under a government program for foreign students known as SEVIS (Student and Exchange Visitor Program)
All of this led prospective students to believe they were dealing with a real university offering programs that would allow them to stay, study, and work in the US legally. In addition to taking $100 application fees from over 600 students, ICE also hoovered up an untold amount of tuition fees.
"I was told by the students, that the university reassured them that classes would be held and everything would be fine and that they are following the immigration laws," said Prashanthi Reddy, an attorney in New York City. "The students paid them the tuition fees and were trapped once they realized that classes were not being held, as some didn't have the money to transfer and pay tuition at another university."
Students were told by ICE's fake university they were complying with immigration laws by applying for continuing education. This was buttressed by the bogus accreditation obtained by the agency. Students thought they were taking the next step to extend their stays in the US -- all of it completely legal -- until it became apparent the fake university would never be holding classes or handing out degrees.
While there may have been a few people taking advantage of immigrants by either lying to them about their visa status or charging fees to route them into another university, a majority of those swept up in ICE's sting were following the law. If the government says you can stay and work in the country as long as you continue your education, students applying to ICE's bogus university were in full compliance. All told, 149 duped students were arrested, but only eight of them are actually facing charges for what's detailed in the indictment.
This is a horrific abuse of trust -- aided and abetted by a national accreditation agency. The government lied repeatedly to people trying to follow the law, took their money, and basically arrested them for failing to figure out it wasn't a real university.
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Filed Under: accreditation, dhs, fake college, fake university, ice, immigrants, visa
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ICE: Got 'em!
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LMFTFY
*illegally.
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Re: LMFTFY
Found the guy who didn't read the article!
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>At the request of DHS, a national accreditation agency listed the University of Farmington as being accredited in order to help deceive prospective students.
>The university was also placed by federal investigators on the website of ICE as an university approved by them under a government program for foreign students known as SEVIS (Student and Exchange Visitor Program)
How does that not add up to entrapment, and fraud. All the wrong doing is on the governments side.
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application fees from over 600 students
EIGHT of whom they arrested.
So... are the remaining 592+ "students" just going to be deported without being arrested first?
I should think that if any of the Applicants who paid were already US Citizens, there'd be some rock-solid ground for criminal Fraud charges and some huge Civil suits.
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What in the heck?
What's next? They send out a fake subpoena, and then tack on additional charges when they show up to a fake courthouse?
Mock up a fake cop car and then arrest them because they pulled over for it when it turned its lights on?
Set up a fake traffic light and then ticket people for going when the light turns green?
It's the ICE agents who should be arrested for fraud.
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Re: application fees from over 600 students
It seems like fraud regardless of the legal status of the targeted victims. I'm pretty sure our government shouldn't be committing fraud on foreign citizens either.
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Deja Vu
This seems so familiar. Like someone else has set up a fake university and defrauded students out of money. I think the name was .... Trump University.
I guess the ICE apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
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At this point, I have to wonder why anyone ever trusts the US government....
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Re:
In this case, they thought they were trusting a university.
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Re:
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for prosecutions.
Lawsuits, on the other hand? I expect we'll be seeing some of those.
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Re: Deja Vu
Sometimes they're still connected to the tree:
https://weather.com/news/trending/video/freak-ghost-apples-appear-in-michigan-orchard
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Re: Re:
Maybe... but most of the people snared appear to have given their tuition money to ICE, and don't have enough left to register at another school. Which means they don't have money to pay for lawyers, are currently at risk of deportation, and are some of the most vulnerable people living in the US.
Hopefully some lawyers from the ACLU or similar working pro bono can get this racketeering overturned and then get ICE penalized in some meaningful manner for stealing money from international students.
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Re: Re: application fees from over 600 students
Turns into a political battle between the two countries when one defrauds citizens of another.
If a US Citizen got hit, much less paperwork to file, greater chance of a court resolution that influences future case law.
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Re:
Because they think Their Party isn't a bunch of crooks.
Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump - every one of them would step over your body on the sidewalk without a second look.
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That's not entrapment.
If I tell someone I'll pay the grocer for him and they hand me the money for that and I disappear, that is not entrapment. It's fraud and embezzlement.
Calling it "entrapment" suggests that the ICE has been overstepping its authority, not that it set up entirely criminal operations for the purpose of fleecing people who are conveniently deported afterwards as a consequence of embezzling from them under false pretenses.
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Re: Re: Re:
ACLU was exactly what I was thinking, yes.
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Re: That's not entrapment.
IANAL, but here's the first sentence of the Wikipedia entry on entrapment:
AFAICT, this doesn't qualify as entrapment because being in the US illegally is a civil violation, not a crime.
However, I would say this does satisfy the "inducement" requirement, as these people would indeed not have been in the country illegally if they had been accepted at a real university rather than applying to a fake one.
But if anyone who's got more legal expertise than I do wants to weigh in, I'll defer to them.
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Re: Re:
Be fair. ACA was derided as "Obamacare". If Trump ever gets a health insurance system established according to his design, it will likely deserve the name "Trumpdontcare".
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Re: Re: Re:
That's a nice bit of snark, but doesn't change the fact that Her Highness would also step over your body without a backward glance either.
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'Here at ICE there is no low we won't sink to.'
I can only assume that no-one with a shred of decency or human empathy works at ICE at this point. Honestly, can you imagine trying to spin this to the people around you who ask what you do for a living?
'Yeah, I was part of a program to defraud people who were trying to better their lives with higher education, involving setting up a bogus college, lying to potential students, and taking their money. ... Do I would for a criminal enterprise? Oh not at all, I've got a badge, that makes all the difference.'
At this point if an article came out with ironclad evidence that ICE agents spend their off time punting puppies, as reprehensible as it would be I would not find it at all unrealistic or out of character for the agency and those that work there, because acts like this take some vile individuals.
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Re: 'Here at ICE there is no low we won't sink to.'
It would be Mexican puppies who need to get punted out of the U.S. before they organize into marauding packs raping all-American Dachshundesses and white poodle bitches. You should be grateful for the ICE to keep U.S. canines from harm.
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Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
This has a better case of being entrapment then most cases at least.
The Feds told students they had to attend a school that met some criteria to legally stay in the US. The feds provided said list, which included their own fake school. Students then signed up for said school, because both the Feds said it was good and at least one school body said so as well.
This leads us to a situation where through the Feds actions, a student became illegal who otherwise would not have done so, as he would have paid and attended a real school. Thus the feds have induced the crime of the student staying past his Visa and/or committing Visa fraud by going to a fake school.
In short, if the feds attempt to charge students with Visa Fraud, overstaying an educational Visa, or any related charges including the future denial of renewal for attending a real school it could be entrapment and would allow that as a defense.
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The "students" knew it was illegal.
C'mon: either they KNEW was not an actual school OR they're so stupid that shouldn't be in school.
Oh, and ILLEGAL. As proved by arrests. Whether nabbed all right off is likely just a matter of bed space / worst cases. You don't know so can't deny.
Techdirt, for anyone new, ACTUALLY supports UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION. This is just seizing on a hook to promote that. -- DAYS LATE as usual. Techdirt so lazy that can't even re-write a simple piece same day comes out.
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It's not really entrapment it's more that all the fraud is on the part of the university and the students are just the victims. They didn't really trick the students into committing a crime.. They just tricked the students into getting screwed over
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Re:
As stated above, for the crimes of Visa Fraud, or even simple exceeding an educational Visa. This could be entrapment.
The students were told, be in an accredited school, and here is a list of schools that we approve of. One of the schools on the list was a Trap school. Once the school turns out to be fake, but also run by the government, approved by the government and an accreditation board, the student has committed the crime of overstaying his Visa and/or Visa fraud.
Both crimes would clearly allow an entrapment defence as students are relying on information communicated by the government and had the school not been fake, the student would have committed no crime.
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Re: Re:
Entrapment is making people believe they are going to commit a crime (usually by promising a monetary reward) and letting them go ahead with the attempt.
Fooling people into believing that they are going to get legal permission to stay (by accepting their payment for a pretend university) is not really the same.
The crime is on the side of the ICE here.
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Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
Thought I should just drop this here..... in your face:
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I'm glad ICE did this. They need to do this more often and deport these illegals. If you're here illegally, then you will be deported and I SUPPORT THIS 1,000%.
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Farmington Hills
I think this needs some Adam Sandler-esque redemption.
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Re:
I found the guy who didn't read the article, and also is a racist piece of shit!
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Re: Re: Re:
Not quite,
The most textbook example, is a cop ordering you to take an illegal action, then arresting you for doing it. For example, driving on the wrong side of the road because the cop flags you to do so, then charges you because you followed his order.
With some narrow charges, entrapment could be a defense, Those being Visa Violations related to overstaying an educational visa. In this case, its the government saying, go to any school on this list, followed by, "HAHA, you signed up for our fake school, we shall charge you with Visa Fraud" because the student failed to meet his visa requirements, only due to the government's direct actions of running a (very good, fully accredited) fake school.
In this case you do have all the elements. The student did what the government said, by taking the action the student committed a crime that he would not have done as he would have signed up at some other school, IE overstay his Visa.
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I do think that ICE was pretty shitty doing this, and I am sure that some of the people caught up in this were actual student's trying to do the right thing. But according to other articles that I have read about this fake college is that a lot of the students applied for the college paid "recruiters" money to help them create fake transcripts to get into a collage just to get the visa. The information we really need to know is how many of the people caught were trying to "game" the system and how many were honestly trying to study.
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Re: Re: LMFTFY
Just reading the title to the story made me think geez how much that sucks ICE so deviantly setting up such a sting. Is that legal let alone ethical, such a sting?
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Re: Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
Sometimes I think the pure bullshit that is committed by agencies of this government are done just for the sake of fishing comments on radical sites like Techdirt. What on earth is the matter with these people?
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Re:
Can you be more specific than "other articles that I have read"?
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Re:
Ah yes, the Aereo argument: "Only the most evil bastards imaginable would obey all the laws governing their proposed course of action."
A bit more seriously, if it is true that "a lot of the students applied for the college paid "recruiters" money to help them create fake transcripts...[and] were caught trying to game the system" then this whole scheme was a massive waste of time and money. Lying on your application will get your admission revoked at every accredited university in the US. If these students were doing that, ICE could simply wait until the students submitted their enrollment information to renew their visa, then inform the university they are attending that the application was fake. The student's admission is revoked, they are no longer attending school, and they won't have time to try to find another school before their visa expires. Simple, costs almost nothing, and there is no chance of the student happening to apply to a real school instead of the fake one, thus remaining in the country despite "gaming the system" (a major weakness in this approach).
Of course, I recognize that what you actually mean is "there is no evidence that any students lied on their application in order to get into college, but it's theoretically possible that they did and the implication evokes a sufficiently negative emotional response that most people won't notice that not only was no evidence of this presented, nobody even claimed that said evidence exists elsewhere." Also known as the "your daughter's boyfriend is evil" principle.
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Re: Re: 'Here at ICE there is no low we won't sink to.'
No one should act like that as an agency of a once deeply honored nation of our world. Its just another BLACK EYE the citizens of this country have to wear on behalf of their government.
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Re: Re:
Probably just a certified troll...
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Re: Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
Which law is that again?
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Re: Re: application fees from over 600 students
Enhanced Civil Asset Forfeiture.
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Re: Re: Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
You don't understand symbols, do you.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Sure, but that also doesn't change the fact that many of these agencies behave the same regardless as to what party is in power in which elected offices. Yes, sometimes they are more extreme when they get more winks or orders from particular individuals. But the issues are cultural and systemic regardless. Your (not particularly relevant) party comment was the initial snark, so snark in return is hardly surprising.
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Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
Oh look, you're lying.
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Re: Re: Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
Oh, so you're one of these people:
Senior White House aide Stephen Miller told reporters the poem written by Emma Lazarus about the "huddled masses" is not part of the original Statue of Liberty.
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Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
Their status was not illegal at all until their continuing education turned out to be a sham.
That's like buying a bag of flour, but some LEO posing as a cashier swaps it for a bag of heroin and then arrests you for posession with intent to distribute.
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Re:
Please post some links to the "other articles". I've looked for them, and all I get is the assertions of ICE and one article in the Daily Caller that's also just the opinion of the author.
It is true that the first eight indictments were against "recruiters", but even that isn't prima facie evidence of intent. According to this NPR interview, this kind of thing is both common and legal, as long as the college in question is, you know, real.
https://www.npr.org/2019/02/02/690916805/the-university-of-farmington-isnt-real-it-s-a-complex -federal-sting-operation
The sheer lengths that DHS and ICE went to actually weakens their assertion that the students knew they were enrolled in a fraudulent institution.
Plus, India is pissed.
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Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
Oh, go brush your fucking tooth, you god damned Trumptard.
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Re:
No, we need to import MORE people who want to better themselves, and export more Trumptards like you.
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Re: Re: Re:
Definitely a troll. Because, you know, who wants people in our country with one or even two master's degrees? (From the linked article)
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Re: Re: Re: LMFTFY
Nope. In fact, if anyone who wasn't a federal agent did what ICE did here, they'd be in a jail cell awaiting trial on a charge that could see them in prison for 10-20 years.
But I have no doubt that even if the federal government doesn't declare the ICE agents committed no wrongdoing, our President will have his pen ready to sign their pardons.
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Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
But this was a real university. It had accreditations.
How else do you define "real university"?
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Re: That's not entrapment.
It's fraud and embezzlement on your part, yes.
But if you were a cop and you did as you describe, then arrested the shopper for shoplifting because they left the grocer with what they were buying without the grocer being paid? That would be entrapment. Which is what ICE did in the story.
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Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
You're mistaken about it being a civil violation. Being in the US illegally is a misdemeanor for a first offense and a felony for subsequent offenses. There is also a civil penalty, but that's on top of the criminal one.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
The terrifying thing (about your comment) is that TechDirt isn't a radical site unless you consider obeying the laws of the United States to be a radical position.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Obviously a troll, as no one could be that bad at both, math, and English, and also be a racist shitbag.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
One of horse with no name's arguments about Prenda Law - during one of his brief backpedaling episodes in supporting the copyright trolls - was an insistence that Prenda Law was a work of fiction created solely to discredit copyright enforcement.
Because the easier explanation is always the people you dislike going out of their way and actively trying to troll you, harming plenty of people in the process at great risk of significant public backlash, than the people on your side actually turning out to be assholes.
Seriously, old Jhon "Sanford" Smith believes that this website can't influence government policy, and now we're supposed to believe the government behaves like a jerk just so a website that is so insignificant in the face of government can write about it?
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Dude, she lost. Maybe you should own Trump's failures rather than obsessing over who won the popular vote...
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Re:
"If you're here illegally"
They weren't.
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Re:
"other articles that I have read"
Cool, can you link them since they're in your recent browser history?
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ICE is solid on literature though
I can't help but think that ICE had a thorough grounding in both Kafka and Joseph Heller (Catch 22).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: LMFTFY
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Stupid dumb motherfuckers who don't know what entrapment is. ICE didn't entrap nobody.
Entrapment: the action of tricking someone into committing a crime in order to secure their prosecution
Fact: These illegals weren't entrapped into committing a crime. They had already committed a crime by being in the U.S. illegally. They were in violation of U.S. immigration laws. That means they were ALREADY committing a crime by not being a legal resident of this country (no papers or proof of citizenship).
Next time, stupid dumb fucks, get your facts straight.
Also, this isn't civil jurisdiction, it's criminal jurisdiction. They snuck into our country using "coyotes" and hid from authorities. They tried to use an offer for free education to continue to stay in our county illegally. So get of your moral fucking high horse and piss off.
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Re:
Found another person who didn't read the article.
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Re: Re:
Found someone who is an idiot and who has drunk the poisoned liberal kool-aid. Fight the brainwashing and think for yourself. Stop drinking the poisoned kool-aid.
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Re: Re: Re:
Tell you what then, oh wise one - how were they in the country illegally as you claimed, when the article states "They were allowed to stay in the US and work as long as they continued their education"? As in, the opposite of what you said?
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Right there. Thanks for backing up my comments, you proved my point just now. Allowed to stay if they continued their education? They weren't continuing their education when they came across this offer and ICE caught them. They should have been continuing their education but they all thought to bum rush this fake college and try to avoid being deported.
ICE didn't entramp them. They went there willingly, without being coerced. ICE arrested them and now they'll be deported.
I guess Democrats should have given Trump his border wall funding since he threw in legislative relief from deportation for three years. Pelosi runs off at the mouth and says they had it before. They didn't.
Executive Orders are not permanent. It's up to congress to pass relief through bills in the creation of laws. Now, they have no legislative relief and I hope Trump and ICE continue these type of immigration crackdowns.
If you don't have proof of citizenship then GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR COUNTRY.
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The university was set up by ICE in 2015. I didn't know Trump had that much power even before he became president.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
Techdirt IS viewed as radical by the establishment, trust me.. I was around in the 60s.. the government views open and honest dialog about the government disdainfully. If you don't get clubbed or shot, its a good day.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
the ICE WEBSITE listed it as a valid university. If a cop said somthing was legal and then arrested you for doing it would you think that was fair.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"They weren't continuing their education when they came across this offer"
Erm, the offer WAS to continue their education.
"I was told by the students, that the university reassured them that classes would be held and everything would be fine and that they are following the immigration laws,"
Sounds to me like they thought it was a real college. Where's your proof that they didn't, because it's not in this article?
"If you don't have proof of citizenship then GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR COUNTRY."
Why do you hate tourists?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh wait, I get it - you're reading too quickly for your xenophobic brain to process it correctly. Let me help:
"The students seeking to attend the fake university had expiring visas"
You obviously thought that said expirED visas, when it says expirING. That is, they had valid visas but they didn't have much time left on them. Valid visas, meaning that they were in the country LEGALLY.
Glad to help, try reading properly next time before forming an opinion, it makes a difference.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
In some warped minds if you are obeying laws, you are obstructing justice by not contributing to the legal system. Governments must outradicalize radicals by 100 times.
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Re: Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
Technically, they are just somewhere on another part of a planet that is OWNED BY GOD!
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Re: Re: Re: That's not entrapment.
No, that's entering the US illegally.
The people we're talking about entered the US legally, on visas. They did not enter the country illegally. They overstayed their visas, which is a civil violation, not a crime.
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Re: Re:
Just go ahead and link them for him.
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Re: Re: Re:
Go ahead and link sites from someone else's browser history that I've never seen?
Neat trick, would you like to educate me on how to do that?
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Re:
KUDOS! Someone figured it out. Damn illegals. Get the hell out of our country. I'm going hunting for illegals and I'm going to place them under citizen's arrest and take them to ICE.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
I don't understand how a poem written on a statue in the 1870's should have any bearing on this subject in 2019, no. The US has never lived up to the spirit of that poem, so why pretend it matters? Democracies are not bound by "symbols", they follow the rule of laws that change along with the times and attitudes of the people.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
No, I've never heard of this. I don't really see how it matters if the poem was part of the original Statue of Liberty? Do people think the poem on the Statue of Liberty has some kind of legal significance?
Is it really unimaginable that a country might have monuments that don't accurately portray its history or culture?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The "students" knew it was illegal.
The Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French, right? That poem, "..give us your poor huddled masses.." has been a brunt of jokes. Why not, "give us your wealthy visionaries and your women.."??
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Re:
There is a whole bunch of these fake universities set up by ICE. All of them were created under President Obama's administration.
It's sad to see many posters want to blame President Trump without doing any research whatsoever.
Sad...
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Brought to you by the same folks who prosecuted the Aereo case.
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Re:
Congratulations, your double-negative ended making that statement true.
Too bad about not having a single true fact following your definition of entrapment, though.
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I guess the ideas of due process and innocent until proven guilty mean nothing to you, xenophobe. These people were here legally (their visas had not yet expired, reading comprehension doesn't seem to be a skill you have) and were set up by a corrupt and rogue agency as blinded by hate as you are. But what you don't get is that sooner or later, that hate will turn on you.
To paraphrase Kryten, "You have all the innate charm, wit, and affability of an Alsatian dog after a head swap operation."
It's smegheads like you that are dragging are country down. Either own up to your hateful attitude and lack of evidence for your position, or provide a complete retraction of everything you have ever said on this site. Now.
And to your fellow troll: provide evidence and actual documentation at once of these other fake universities and the time of their establishment, otherwise your claim is false.
And finally, skin pigmentation is an utterly ridiculous and ignorant way of ascertaining a person's worth. No one is better than anyone else, and you trolls need to learn that and admit it.
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Prove it. Now. Actual documentation or it's false.
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It is bad enough that this sort of thing is allowed, apparently for some time, but now speaking Spanish will get you detained.
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I was going to say that you could deal with these people without resorting to insults, but as you invoked Red Dwarf I'll allow it.
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Two things.
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If the cop orders you to commit a crime and you do, you are still actually committing a crime.
What I was getting at is I don't get how the students committed any crime at all.
It doesn't sounds like the university convinced the students to break any laws here at all. How do the students commit VISA fraud if they tell the truth on all their VISA related correspondence? The university is defrauding both the students and the VISA office here but I don't see how the students are committing any crime unless they are somehow complicit or mislead on their applications.
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There's a difference between committing a crime and breaking the law.
Overstaying your visa means you're in the country illegally, which is a civil violation.
Had the school been a real school operating in good faith, the applicants would not have overstayed their visas; they would have gotten student visas.
FYI, "visa" isn't an acronym; "travel visa" comes from the Latin charta visa.
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Truly, your eloquently composed response, filled with civil discourse and including multiple points refuting my original opinion and showing why it was flawed has shown me the error of my ways, and made clear to all that my original assessment was fatally flawed, and that your position is both much more mature and backed by extensive supporting evidence, evidence that my hasty reading of your original comment somehow failed to see, despite it's glorious, obvious splendor.
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I am so sorry. Often I make the mistake of assuming that people know how to use a search engine. But, as you have shown me yet again, there are those who just can't grasp the use of Google, DuckDuckGo, Bing, etc.
Could I perhaps direct you to some place where you could obtain a low cost (i.e., paid for by the taxpayers) education regarding Internet basics? I would be more than happy to do so.
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Is "hyperbole" part of your vocabulary?
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Thanks. Nice to see a fellow Dwarfer here. These trolls make Rimmer look like a saint in comparison.
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I use DDG regularly, troll, but the fact that you refuse to provide the requested evidence invalidates your position. As the one making the claim, it falls to you to back it up. That you can't means you forfeit your position.
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Looks like I need to apologize again since you are familiar with search engines.
It would appear that you prefer to have everyone else do everything for you. I bet you and AOC are BFF!
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God may be the creator of this world, but he certainly is not its owner. He relinquished it to the humans. Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So the Earth has been placed in the dominion of humans, and the humans have rulers, god-given or elected, that make the decisions of what to do with it.
And the U.S. rulers have decided that God's blessed country is not for the descendents of Americans but of Europeans. There may also be an African angle to it (someone had to pick cotton) and an Asian one (someone had to build the railroads and iron shirts) but most certainly not an American one.
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So we are building a wall so that they may not get out again?
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It would appear that you prefer to have everyone else do everything for you.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Let me lay this out: You have made an assertion. You have presented no proof of it. When asked for evidence, you tell people to go use a search engine.
And now you've told others to do your work for you.
Enjoy your liar label. If you dislike the liar label, all you have to do to invalidate is start presenting proof that you are not a liar.
I'll wait.
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Who had "do my homework for me" on their Bingo card?
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Ah, one of those folks who's obsessed with AOC. That explains it.
Might I recommend you broaden your interests and learn about some other political figures? Christopher Hitchens wasn't perfect by any means, but he made some pretty good observations.
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Well that is one of the many, many reasons the wall is a dumb idea.
The vast majority of people in the US illegally are people who came here legally and then overstayed their visas. Even assuming a wall were effective against illegal border crossings (which, of course, it wouldn't be), it wouldn't stop the majority of illegal immigration.
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I did. I've got a whole stack of chips on it by now. If I manage to connect five, the payout should be great.
Disclaimer: I haven't the first clue how to play bingo.
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All the earth and all it contains is the Lord's.
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Isn't that the free space? Everyone should have that one.
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For future reference in responding to dishonest individuals such as that, might I suggest simply linking to Hitchen's Razor?
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The Best part, Michigan has some of the toughest bait and switch and fraud laws in the nation
False Advertising Forbidden Yes (§445.903) Who May Bring Suit Attorney general, prosecuting attorney, or private citizen; class action by attorney general (§445.910) Remedies Available Injunction; actual damages or $250.00 whichever is greater, plus attorney's fees; persistent and knowing violation $25,000 (§445.905.911)
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but there was no "playing".
You need to understand the course of logical discourse:
Person A makes a declarative statement. Person B disagrees and presents facts or arguments as to why Person A is incorrect. Person B does not say, "You are wrong therefore you have to prove something to me.
Of course there are outliers to this standard method of discourse. Had Person A said something quite silly such as , "The U.S. government is keeping aliens from outer space alive in Roswell and is using them to develop warp drive technology!", Person B's best response would be, "I did some cursory research on that and I have been unable to find anything that supports your assertion. Could you provide clarification or your sources for purposes of enlightenment?"
Instead, in this case, Person B (i.e., you) decided to take illogical steps and thus show the world that critical thinking is not part of your lexicon. The funny part is that using any of the popular search engines, you could have easily proved Person A to be correct or incorrect. And you could have done so in far less time it took to type your somewhat juvenile responses.
In the spirit of helping everyone, I would suggest that you study the methods and standards of debating. If that is not to your liking, you would be well advised to study how the universe of peer reviewed, academic publishing works.
In closing, I will borrow from the late Paul Harvey, "Good day!"
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Don't be so modest!
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Foreigners whether here legally or not don't have those rights of innocent until proven guilty and due process as do citizens, but they should not have to weed their way through a deceitful government agency. Who can blame them for wanting to stay in America anyway, to avoid disease, poverty and governments trying to strip them of all human dignity and a sense of safety and well-being?
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I have never heard of a person who does not know how to play bingo!!?! And to find one on a Tech site really makes me wonder wtf is wrong with education these days.
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What are you.. like in the ninth grade? I really want to know. At what grade level are they teaching critical thinking? Come back after you've read some really good books. and give me a report!
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And what happens when they redefine citizens in a way that excludes you?
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One that has teachers and classes. The accreditation was fake too.
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"A Center for Migration Studies report estimates that 44 percent of those in living in the U.S. illegally in 2015 were visa overstays."
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/
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Incorrect.
"Many parts of the Constitution use the term “people” or “person” rather than “citizen.” Rodriguez said those laws apply to everyone physically on U.S. soil, whether or not they are a citizen.
As a result, many of the basic rights, such as the freedom of religion and speech, the right to due process and equal protection under the law apply to citizens and noncitizens."
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-constitutional-rights-do-undocumented- immigrants-have
"Cases extending back to the 1800s, including ones brought by Chinese immigrants challenging the arbitrary seizure of their property, have established the rights of non-citizens under the Fourth and Fifth Amendments including due process and the right to a jury."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2017/01/30/does-the-constitution-protect-non-c itizens-judges-say-yes/
Here is what the Constitution reserves to US citizens:
That's it. Not one of the amendments of the Bill of Rights mentions citizens. The presumption of innocence is not found in the Constitution but is a matter of common law. The due process guarantee reads as follows:
"nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
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OK, so you're saying that instead of trusting the direct recommendation of the agency responsible for determining the legality of what they were trying to do, they should instead have launched independent investigations into the legitimacy of everything they were told is legal?
I'm all for due diligence and caveat emptor, but I don't see why a person thinking "this college must be kosher because ICE said it was one of the ones they recommend" is a black mark on that person when they're trying to follow ICE's rules for legally remaining in the country..
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"The funny part is that using any of the popular search engines, you could have easily proved Person A to be correct or incorrect"
Logic is not your string suit, huh?
How it actually works is - you make the assertion, YOU back it up. Otherwise, you end up with person A making wild claims, multiple people saying "you're full of shit" and then person A goes "the proof is there, you just didn't find it".
"And you could have done so in far less time it took to type your somewhat juvenile responses."
Pot, kettle. You just chose to whine for multiple paragraphs instead of simply linking to the evidence you've apparently already seen. By your own terms, you just wasted time instead of doing something trivial and it would by definition be easier for you to do it since you apparently already have the data in your browser history.
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"Foreigners whether here legally or not don't have those rights of innocent until proven guilty and due process as do citizens,"
How can someone so obsessed with the rule of law not understand what it actually says?
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I'd check your sarcasm meter and re-read that whole first sentence again if I were you.
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Why yes, that link does say that.
And two sentences later, it says this:
You're correct, I suppose, in that I misspoke when I said "The vast majority of people in the US illegally are people who came here legally and then overstayed their visas." I should have qualified that by saying that the vast majority of growth in the undocumented population is people coming here legally and overstaying their visas.
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That's fair. I think the most important point though is that the idea that all 12 million undocumented immigrants crossed the border illegally is not correct. And I think there are probably a lot of people who believe that (though probably not a lot who read this blog).
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Right. The people who are pushing for draconian measures against illegal immigration have serious misconceptions about the basic facts of illegal immigration (and generally also about the basic facts of legal immigration; if I had a nickel for every time I saw somebody say "I don't have anything against legal immigration" and then turn around and start ranting about refugees and asylum seekers...).
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Oh look. A liar who doesn't provide anything to back up an assertion. What a surprise.
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Back up your assertion
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
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Are these Indian students muslim? Or LGBTQ? Unless they are, don't hold your breath waiting for the ACLU to do anything at all.
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Took you five days to come up with that devastating burn, did it, Mikey?
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