DHS Move Ahead With Plan To Harvest DNA Samples From Nearly Everyone Detained By ICE And CBP
from the don't-forget-to-pack-your-saliva dept
Looks like everyone roaming across the board is going to become a source of info for the US government. The DHS has already rolled out facial recognition at international airports and additional biometric collections elsewhere. The Fourth Amendment's near-nonexistence at the border has led to a steadily-increasing number of invasive device searches. Visa applicants and other long-term visitors are being forced to turn over social media information (including passwords) during the application process.
Now, the DHS is hoping to collect DNA from nearly every immigrant it has in custody. The DHS first pitched this idea back in October, hoping to strike the lone exemption keeping it from collecting samples from the hundreds of thousands of people crossing southern borders every year.
The previous administration said it simply wasn't feasible to collect DNA from every detainee, especially those rounded up near southern borders. This administration says it's no longer a logistical problem, so it should be allowed to collect it from everyone detained by ICE or the CBP.
[S]ubsequent developments have resulted in fundamental changes in the cost and ease of DNA-sample collection. DNA-sample collection from persons taken into or held in custody is no longer a novelty. Rather, pursuant to the mandate of § 28.12(b), it is now carried out as a routine booking measure, parallel to fingerprinting, by Federal agencies on a government-wide basis.
The rule change removes the logistics exemption, effectively removing the power to make judgment calls on DNA collection from the DHS and placing it in the hands of the Attorney General. Presumably, Bill Barr will be far less likely to exempt any immigrants from this DNA collection, no matter how much of a burden it places on the agencies performing the collection.
The change is now in effect and the DHS is moving forward with its expanded DNA collection.
The U.S. government on Monday launched a pilot program to collect DNA from people in immigration custody and submit it to the FBI, with plans to expand nationwide.
In Detroit, people as young as 14 will be subject to DNA collection.
The information would go into a massive criminal database run by the FBI, where it would be held indefinitely. A memo outlining the program published Monday by the Department of Homeland Security said U.S. citizens and permanent residents holding a “green card” who are detained could be subject to DNA testing, as well as asylum seekers and people entering the country without authorization. Refusing to submit DNA could lead to a misdemeanor criminal charge, the document said.
It will take more than a detention to collect DNA from US persons and lawful permanent residents, so that's not an entirely accurate synopsis of the DHS's memo [PDF]. US persons and lawful residents will have to be under arrest or facing criminal charges to be subjected to the DNA collection.
But it does change the scope of the collection, which will now include as many immigrants as possible, even if they're crossing at heavily-trafficked areas of the border. It also means the DHS is creating additional logistical challenges under the theory that filling an FBI database with non-criminals will make it easier to apprehend criminals.
The DHS expects this to cost an additional $3-5 million a year, including the $5.38 the FBI spends for each DNA kit. Processing is another matter -- the DHS did not address this cost in its proposal other than saying the FBI "won't charge" the DHS for processing. This is an especially meaningless assurance. Taxpayers will still be paying for the gratis processing the FBI will be performing. There will just be less paperwork involved.
Even if it's cost-effective, it's still mostly useless. Most of the DNA collected will be linked to people who did nothing more than attempt to cross a border. It puts more needles in the FBI's haystack under the theory it might result in the occasional apprehension of a dangerous individual. Even the DHS believes the collection won't do much to ensure the worst of the worst aren't returned to general population.
The DHS memo acknowledged that the DNA its agents collect may not be immediately useful. Agents plan to take saliva swabs of detained people, then mail them to the FBI. By the time the results are processed, the memo said, the people in question may have already been released, deported or transferred to another federal agency.
Useful or not, the collected DNA belongs to the US government for life. The government has authorized DNA collection on detainees as young as 14 and can hold onto the info indefinitely. In practical terms, this means CBP and ICE will be taking DNA samples from children because agents generally decide how old immigrant minors are, rather than relying on produced documents or statements from detainees and family members. If they really want the sample, they'll just declare someone to be 14 years old.
Maybe the ultimate goal is to make coming to America just not worth the hassle. The government's thirst for data is never quenched. Every so often the public may make it take a step back from the fire hose, but it will always come back for more.
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Filed Under: cbp, dhs, dna samples, ice, privacy
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Worse than that.
... because it WILL leak out.
And if it doesn't simply leak out, it will be sold.
And then one more piece of biometric information becomes effectively common knowledge. Yay, insurance premiums. Yay, fraud. Yay, scams!
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Of course we should record the dna of criminal aliens.
WTF?
How could we not?
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I do not see that as creating much of a problem for your police, as they will make up a reason to arrest someone.
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“My police”?
Who are you, an illegal alien criminal fuckwad?
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I'm not sure which is more interesting - how naive you have to be to believe that those are the only people being detained, or the implicit assertion that anyone detained must be treated as if they have been found guilty of something without due process.
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Illegal alien criminal fuckwads don’t deserve “due process”.
A boot in the ass on the way back across the border is all they deserve.
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"How could we not?"
Do you honestly trust our government to stop there? Next will be DNA tests collected roadside during a traffic stop.
But what purpose does this DNA collection really serve? It can't be used to prevent people previously deported from re-entering the country, because even DHS admits the results may not be back in time.
Or is the purpose to gradually condition our society into accepting gradually increasing levels of government surveillance and intrusion that make Orwell's 1984 pale by comparison? Make no mistake...our government would collect biometric information on every person in this country if they thought they could get away with it.
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Who cares? My DNA is even more American than yours. I’m not worried. You worried?
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"Illegal alien criminal fuckwads don’t deserve “due process”."
Impressive, no only is that directly against your constitution, but you don't mind the rights of innocent people who sometimes get caught up in this process being arbitrarily removed - some of them US citizens.
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"My DNA is even more American than yours."
What counts as "American" DNA, given that I've drank in pubs that are hundreds of years older than your first settlement?
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Sons and daughters of the American Revolution, that’s a good start.
I’m guessing that excludes you.
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Pretty much anyone who cares about the Constitution cares about government overreach like this.
And I'm absolutely worried about when our government decides this is not enough information for them and decide to collect the DNA of everyone.
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Well, we’ve got to do something to identify and deport the 25 million illegal alien fuckwads squatting in the USA.
You have a better idea?
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And how is DNA collection going to accomplish that?
Start by remembering this country was founded on immigration.
Then we can work on streamlining and improving the immigration process in ways that don't treat our Constitution like toilet paper.
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And once a democrat is back in the Whitehouse, those who support Trump will once again remember they're meant to care about the constitution. The people creating these policies will go on Fox News or get NYT columns where they decry government overreach, and the voters that support it will go back to claiming that the president wearing a coloured suit clearly means they're going to have fema lock up everyone who ever voted for trump to harvest their eyeball juice, and tag all babies with their nutritional information.
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So, you don't count the children of immigrants who entered the country since then to be Americans, since they inevitably have different DNA? How many generations count, in your view?
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Hey, it's Stephen Miller, nice to have a celebrity on here. Why did you stop using the spray on hair, it was a great look for you.
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What’s your agenda?
Scholar?
Politician?
Corporatist?
Priest?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"we’ve got to do something'
Hey, who cares about those rights, as long as you're doing something, huh? I hope you don't need them yourself at any time in the future once you've wished them away to get at those brown people...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Please, show us on the doll where non white people existing hurts you.
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~80 years ago they used another word instead of alien to dehumanize people of a certain demographic. I do hope that history doesn't repeat itself.
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Who’s brown? You brown?
Are you a racist?
Deport all the illegals, any color, that’s what I’m saying.
Racism is WRONG!
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Wow this place is full of racist freak shows.
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You should write a book.
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Parenting 101
Despite what the "parenting" books written by "parenting" experts might tell you, this is exactly why you don't give your children "reasons" other than "because I said so" when they question your authority to tell them what they can and cannot do - the devious little criminals will find a way to work around your rationale and then triumphantly proclaim that, your objection being answered, now you have to allow them to do as they wanted.
Rather than objecting that the proposed DNA collection would be too costly, too cumbersome, too ineffective, too intrusive, too whatever, they should have just stuck with "I said 'No' and if you ask again I'm going to have to explain the meaning of the word 'No' to you in terms I can guarantee you will not like one bit."
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Constitutionalist.
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Well, there is that one guy who really hates immigrants and is proud of how pure his DNA is.
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Passport. Recite the pledge of allegiance. Sing a little of the National anthem.
Good enough for me.
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Human being.
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Yourself included.
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Really? Which tribe?
My wife is part choctaw.
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Yeah, sure, and the Trump administration’s first two attempts at a Middle East travel ban just so happened to target Muslims with specific precision by accident~.
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Don't hold your breath. I'm still waiting for him to answer how he thinks DNA collection will help in his anti-immigrant crusade.
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Re: Re:
Not everybody who comments on this site are US citizens, nor do the live in the USA. In most countries, the police do not try and turn every interaction with people a reason to search them, or regards laws restricting things like searches an impediment to them doing their job.
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but if I had to guess, they’re probably a little birdhouse in your soul.
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A good chunk of Mexico was California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada and Tejas.
They were there before the American Revolution.
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Here, have a funny vote.
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Stop and frisk, that’s my motto, what’s yours?
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I'm sorry if I made an incorrect assumption, but when someone is clearly quite nationalist, obsessed with the "pureness" of DNA and with getting rid of "illegals", that does imply something.
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Which of those is present in DNA?
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Even they were immigrants at one time, as Baron von Robber pointed out further down.
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Mine too
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Are you referring to all those who have over stayed their visa or only those who have crossed the border illegally?
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Who did Nazi that coming? ;)
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Don't be a racist shithead.
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We really need a rimshot emoji.
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Probably, but the people who need to read my thoughts on these things aren't huge fans of reading anything longer than a tweet, or the ticker at the bottom of the Fox news screen. I suppose if I put the word Snowflake in the title, I could get a right wing group to bulk purchase it so people think my views have a wider appeal.
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Racism, racism. Stop and frisk everybody, that’s my motto. I’m not a racist, you are.
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Yeah, I was kidding. You write like shit.
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"Who cares? My DNA is even more American than yours. I’m not worried. You worried?"
American: Refers to inhabitants of both north and south american continents
How can one have dna that is more this or that country? Seems it is just another tool in the bigot toolbox.
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You wish you had a hot Indian wife.
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USA. Idiot.
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You're assuming bigots are even capable of using tools, and given the lack of reasoning shown in his responses so far that may be too much of an assumption.
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Do you Stop and Frisk yourself?
That would make a good sketch - lol
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As soon as you can point out the DNA marker that only residents of the USA have then maybe you'd have a justifiable reason ri collect it.
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Wow, the retard is strong in you.
Her father was full choctaw. Her mother 1/4 costanoan.
So get out of her country.
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Is that a trick question?
Or are you some kind of morally superior being?
In your imagination, I mean.
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Not an answer to the question. How many generations count, in your view?
Also: Passports can be faked, and both the pledge of allegiance and the singing of the national anthem are shitty tradition we think of as “patriotic” because we were told to think of it that way. Pledging loyalty to a flag¹ or singing a song isn’t patriotism. Patriotism is someone asking if, and why, they even need to do those things in the first place.
¹ — And so you get a further bug up your ass about my comment, allow me to present an alternate pledge that isn’t a loyalty oath to the government: “I pledge allegiance to the people of the United States of America, and to the Republic in which they live — one nation, and its Constitution, working towards liberty and justice for all.”
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So the Constitution means nothing to you. The Bill of Rights means nothing to you.
How about we deport you instead since you obviously don't like our Constitution?
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Only to someone who can’t answer it.
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Ah, so you’re not a racist, you’re a fascist.
…not really makin’ a good case for yourself here, champ.
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That hasn't stopped Don Jr, or any other rightwing grifters for that matter.
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You are very very racist. That's obvious.
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He could get arrested for that in most public places....then the government could collect his DNA.
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But is she hot? Is her private place special? Does she howl like a dog and hiss like a snake? That’s what everyone says about hot and horny Indian babes.
Is it true?
Or is she another disgusting drunk trailer trash whore with moccasins?
Not her country anymore, she sold it for some whiskey, as I remember.
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Well, there are some well documented American families, DNA and much more.
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" Illegal alien criminal fuckwads don’t deserve “due process”. A boot in the ass on the way back across the border is all they deserve."
That's harsh. I mean sure, the native tribes would like their country back, but deporting everyone descended from immigrants might just be a bit over the top.
But i think we all realized just what sort of troll you were when you started out on how "criminals" didn't deserve "due process". Because the last guy to openly advocate the "one judge, one bullet" approach in public was Joseph vissarionovich Stalin.
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Jealous much?
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So you've just proven yourself to be a racist facaist retard in one post.
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So, again, how many generations count? Which members of your President's family count as "American" in your eyes, if we're going on DNA?
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And what about the rest of the citizens, whose ancestors emigrated here in the past 200 years?
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"Who cares? My DNA is even more American than yours. I’m not worried. You worried?"
DNA can't show you're american. It can only show where you've got ancestry from.
Oh, and it can be sold for high price to insurance companies so your premiums skyrocket if your parents and grandparents had any latent forms of chronic conditions.
I'd be worried about who got my genetic sequence. That you aren't only means you're an idiot. Would you accept having to give your ATM pin code to anyone who asked as well?
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"Is that a trick question?"
No, you stated you had more American DNA than somebody. I'm merely asking which parts of your DNA makes it "American". So far you're responded with dogma and paperwork, neither of which is in DNA.
I'm merely asking you to back up your own words.
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I am neither. I am both.
I am the shadow under the moonlight of your wife sucking my cock.
Go find another country for you and your half breed family.
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We all know he is incapable of answering any questions with anything but insults and rhetoric.
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Only those being grifted are jealous of the grifters. Everyone else just shakes their head at how pathetic both the grifted and the grifters are.
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"Well, there are some well documented American families, DNA and much more."
So in other words, aside from people who have the genetic markers indicating descent from JFK and a few others, the rest should get themselves out of the US?
This may just be the most backward suggestion for the use of the long-buried pseudoscience of eugenics I've seen in a while.
At this point I'm fairly sure we're talking to a troll. No one is that dumb.
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Im not the one with the Indian wife, dipshit.
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But are you the terror that flaps in the night? 🤔
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Those are not mutually exclusive.
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Well, your wife can suck my cock too.
I’m not a RACIST.
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You just play one on the Internet.
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Hate to break it to you, but you absolutely are a racist. You don't have to be discriminatory to be racist...you just have to be ignorant and demeaning in your views of other races. In other words, you just have to be yourself.
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"Go find another country "
I love the fact that this is your response to someone telling you that their family were here before you were. The fact that you can't identify the correct person to attack is the icing on the cake, but the lack of self-awareness is impressive.
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Real humor is dead.
Trump is funny to any normal human.
Even the Iranians.
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It truly is. It takes some serious dedication to shove his head that far up his ass.
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Their dead family.
Dinosaurs are dead too.
May it’s their country , by your reasoning.
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My husband doesn't go for that.
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Can’t we have an honest disagreement?
Troll, indeed.
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Maybe y’all are projecting.
Nigger.
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Someone’s awfully defensive about their identity as an American. Are you hiding something about how you got to this country, Squidward?
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Sure we can — once you start being honest.
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Sure we can....
As soon as you stop tossing out racist and fascist insults to anyone who disagrees with you and answer the questions you've been asked repeatedly.
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In the Panspermia theory, we are all immigrants on this planet.
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We're projecting what it means to be real Americans.
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When backed into a corner, the idiot racist defies their own proclamations of anti-racism to make everyone concentrate on the racism instead of the idiocy, failing to realize that doing so exposes both the racism and the idiocy.
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Look I am cool with collecting dna. So what?
Especially criminals.
Good idea for the rest of us law abiding Americans.
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Well....every bit the troll as racist.
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Re:
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/francois_de_la_rochefouca_399179?src=t_cleverness
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But where does the collection stop?
And how would collecting DNA from illegal immigrants help stop them from entering the country?
And whay about the American citizens CBP/ICE detain every year?
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You’re not concealing anything. You’re more transparent than a PNG with an alpha channel.
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...you think Republicans are going to start caring about the way brown-skinned people are treated at the border? Really? Republicans?
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The United States of America is a subset of the continent of North America. There also is a South America.
Interesting thing is, both North and South America are populated with americans.
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For what reason should “law abiding Americans” have their DNA collected and stored by the government? Because if you think DNA collection would stop with undocumented immigrants, you’re a bigger fool than you’ve already proven yourself to be.
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How are all you geniuses going to feel after trump’s reelection?
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I think they act like fools thinking it will help them escape their responsibilities.
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"Their dead family."
Their lineage is still there, and likely outlasts your family by many generations. Which, by your logic, makes them more American than you.
"May it’s their country , by your reasoning."
Hey, you're the one claiming that new immigrants need to get kicked out so that the descendants of the last set of immigrants feel safer. We're just pointing out that at one point your family were the "invaders".
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You have your opinion and I have mine.
And you are a proven idiot.
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Stop 'n Swab
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If it happens: disappointed that people still think he’s the lesser of two evils, relieved that he can’t legally serve another term, worried that he’ll do his goddamned best to find a way around that limit and stay in the White House past 2024 (which he’s “joked” about doing before), and frightened that the courts his administration has packed with right-wing ideologues will let him.
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I remember when "papers please" and collecting personal data with no due process were so abhorrent to Americans that they fought several wars to liberate the people it was happening to. How times have changed.
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…says the asshole who used a racial slur after saying multiple times that they aren’t a racist.
Also, not an answer to my question.
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asserts erroneous facts
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That the election was rigged?
lol
Of course it will be rigged
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Trump is the butt of many jokes.
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Every President is the butt of many jokes, and they damn well should be.
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“We don’t rig elections!” — Republicans right before voting to purge voter rolls and gerrymander voting distrcts, probably
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You know that ALL his kids are going to run next.
Then their kids.
Bush on steroids.
Trumperica.
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But is their DNA American enough for you?
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More likely his is the creature under the bridge.
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Dipshit. All DNA has a similar origination. That you think yours is significantly different must mean that your from another planet. Just think, in the future we may find that the DNA found here on Terra was also distributed to other worlds by some post Big Bang interaction. What will you claim then?
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Ah, yes, just what America needs~: a “royal” family. I mean, it’s not like America fought a way against the divine right of kings, after all~.
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Oops....bad formatting in my part.
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Another American tenet is "innocent until proven guilty". Are you suggesting we put all of those alleged illegal immigrants on trial before we collect their DNA? After all, they're not criminals until proven so in a court of law.
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He's already proven by his own statements he doesn't care about the Constitution or our rights.
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Unintentionally funny. The man is a brainless twit. I think Jon Stewart said it best when he named Trump "Fuckface von Clownstick".
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Go find another country for you and your half breed family.
By any chance do you think you invented email?
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Who are you, an illegal alien criminal fuckwad?
No, we're not talking about your mother.
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How are all you geniuses going to feel after trump’s reelection?
Indifferent.
He hasn't accomplished anything in the 3+ years he's been in office. Why would a second term be any different?
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Oh I don't know about that, he is doing quite a lot allow corporations to pollute the environment y removing environmental protections. and destroying the EPA.
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so much for 'Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE'! seems what i read all those years ago was right when Laden said that governments would become worse than terrorists!
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"Trumperica."
No no ... it is Trumplandia
Trumperica would be some Seinfeld spinoff where Kramer meets Donald. Now that sounds like it could be very funny.
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Haha, yup.
Some countries are not very understanding of those who mock its leader.
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cue classic calvin comic :)
https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1985/12/27
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Heh. Brown people that's small thinking.
Slaves that want to be slaves. Morality and ethics, you define, blindly supported by all as if it were their own. Instant and total blacklisting of any unperson by everyone at the push of a button. Enemies on the battlefield one second, converted to your most loyal followers the next.
Why convince people your opinion is the correct one when you can just make your opinion the only one they know with a vigorous passion to defend?
Now that's where the real money is. Just stop looking at them as people. They're programmable meat sacks. They just don't realize it yet, and by the time they figure it out, it will be too late for them to do anything about it.
Rights? Heh. If you think any of those powers that be give a rat's ass about your so called "rights" you haven't been paying attention. The only "right" they care about is the one enforced by their own power. If they think they can get away with taking away those "rights" they will. The real thing you should be worried about is how much longer you have left to worry about it. Because if they could take away your free will, if they could force-ably mold you into the being they want you to be, they would without a second thought. Rights are meaningless. The only thing these people understand is power, and those proclaiming "Rights!" do not have the power needed to challenge them. But feel free to continue making such sarcastic claims, you're a wonderful addition to the performance they need to continue unopposed.
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The only US Prez to have the whole world laugh at him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4y8OJxlK8
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What tribe are you bro?
Oh you aren’t?
You are not a real American bro.
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Yeah. Deport idiots like you who don’t understand how the Constitution works. The illegals can then have the citizenship you took for granted.
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You are soooo close to a very important self realisation bro.
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Really bro you’re already down to “I’m rubber you’re glue?”
I’m knew you were a stupid racist fuckwit hamiltron. But this has really been a tour de force for you you. Better slow down before you shit yourself, again.
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We are all laughing at him bro.
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Again, until they have been proven to be illegal aliens, they haven’t been proven to be guilty of a crime, and they should be given the same constitutional rights we give everyone accused of a crime in the United States. (And BTW, except the right to vote or right to hold office, our constitutional rights apply to nonresidents and noncitizens, not just citizens or legal residents.)
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Setting aside the fact that “American DNA” isn’t a thing (unless you are talking about the DNA from Native Americans), DNA includes a hell of a lot more personal information than just ethnicity and ancestry.
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Rationalist and pragmatist
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You have just quickly and efficiently proven that, despite your previous assertions to the contrary, you are, in fact, racist, even if it’s not necessarily against Hispanics.
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Are they the one hiding under your bed,
Teeth ground sharp and eyes glowing red?
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Well, you also say someone should get out of the country for being a half-breed Native American. So maybe you’re just racist against red people, not brown? Or is it mixed ancestry that bothers you?
But let’s look at this logically. You are okay with taking the DNA of someone accused of entering or staying in the country illegally. You don’t explain what that would prove, especially given the fact that most citizens and legal residents are not having their DNA sampled for the database, so it can’t be used to prove or disprove whether or not they were born to American citizens or legal residents. It might be usable to test ethnicity, but only a racist would care about that in regards to criminals.
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Sure, but do you have any reasoning to back up your assertion? What are the benefits of gathering up law-abiding citizens’ DNA without particularized justification?
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Also removing any regulatory authority that the FCC has over telecom companies.
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Looks like Hamilton lost his shit again.
Honestly if I voted an asshole to build a wall for me and he spent 4 years failing to do so, I'd fire the fucker.
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Bah, she's got me beat.
My American ancestry only goes as far back as the Speedwell.
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No, he's the one hiding under the stairs; fingers like snakes and spiders in his hair.
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You have not been in jail recently if you believe that criminals do deserve due process because no one who houses and caretakes the criminal populations in the US believes in due process. Or maybe they would treat their tennants, some awaiting trial, others shredded with bogus convictions by copping pleas, with more dignity and understanding. Even those convicted by a jury of their peers for high crimes and misdemeanors doesn't always mean they were guilty of anything. Cops will beat the living daylights out of you as their take on due process doesn't prohibit extreme abuse.
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I do believe they should change the words of "give us your tired and poor" at the foot of lady liberty to "give us your beautiful woman and all your money too!"
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Well, the hell with that theory. I'm Johnny Reb.
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Better idea to put the men in a special section of the armed forces and send the woman and children back to their countries to much enthused open arms.
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You got a hybrid half squaw Choctaw as a wife? She'll probably castrate you while you're sleeping some night. Some woman are crazy as hell. Good luck with that.
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Where should we start?
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Those policies have been usurped by a bunch of assholes hellbent on destroying America. I have watched their fancy footwork for three generations now. They are bending childrens' minds to do their work for them now. Its the sickest thing.
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Illegal aliens are not protected by the rights within the Constitution. They represent a national security risk and are not innocent at all by the fact they are standing inside the border of America with no legal right to be here. They have no legal documents that allow them sanctuary as noncitizens. They are not even represented by a legal system. It is that way all around the world. Get over it.
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Alphabet agencies, undemocratic agencies being run by unelected have been writing illegal laws since the mid eighties after Chevron vs EPA. They are going to write this illegal alien DNA collection law and it will be illegal, but it will be on the books. What is anyone going to do about it?
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Oh geez, the dickens you say.. I did not know that. Did you know that, Ed?
YES! The Bluecoats north Americans and the graycoats south Americans.
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Bro just cause you switch up addresses doesn’t make your argument any less stupid and wrong. But do answer me one question. Why is it the most vocal defenders of the constitution don’t understand what’s it it?
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Fat stupid racist and lazy is no way to go through life son.
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Do not suppose that race is not a thing. People, children are still being raised by adults to be prejudiced against others of different skin color. It is being taught hard to not be bigotted in some schools, but its cultural, historical and integral in people whether you want to partake in it or not. Some people DO look at their world differently than maybe mainstream ideologies, but just because you haven't been confronted by the actuality of racial difference doesn't mean you won't some day.
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My DNA is USA Red White and Blue all the way baby!
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I frisk myself when I can find my keys or my wallet! It probably doesn't look funny though, the way I do it.
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Anyone who need an excuse to separate humans on an arbitrarily attribute into different "races" are by definition racist because it's the human race, not human races.
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May want to get that looked at, it doesn't sound healthy.
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Maybe by answering the questions you've already been asked?
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Sounds like his DNA looks like a double wide with PBR cans stacked three feet deep.
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That's what happens when your family tree is a circle.
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I’m glad to see you recognize the threat of the Trump administration.
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Countries that don't allow you to openly mock their leader tend to be the ones you wouldn't want to live in...
The only notable thing about the current jokes in the US is how quickly the same people who whined about every triviality from spicy mustard to suit colour during the Obama years will now state that it's wrong to criticise the president for anything from human rights abuses to outright collaboration with foreign powers in order to undermine the electorate.
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Yeah, uh, you might want to read up on the Constitution and the jurisprudence surrounding the subject of undocumented immigrants and constitutional rights. For starters, read this part of the 14th Amendment:
Now, can you pick out the two words that provide legal protections to undocumented immigrants? I can: “any person”. (I bet you’ll come to hate those two words.)
And the Supreme Court tends to agree. It ruled in Zadvydas v. Davis that “due process” (another couple of words you seem to hate!) of the 14th Amendment applies to every non-citizen in the United States even if their presence may be, or is, “unlawful, involuntary, or transitory”. It ruled as follows in Plyler v. Doe:
And in Wong Win v. United States (a case from 1896!), the Supreme Court ruled as follows:
So yes, undocumented immigrants are protected by the rights within the Constitution. They are people, after all.
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America fucked up when it forced enslaved Black people to fight in wars. You shouldn’t want it to basically make the same mistake twice, no matter how you feel about the people who come to this country illegally.
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I…I don’t see how the way some assholes treat prisoners in some jails and prisons should determine whether I (or anyone else) think said prisoners deserve due process of the law. Please explain your thinking.
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"You have not been in jail recently if you believe that criminals do deserve due process..."
That is correct. I don't think that being in one - either as inmate or warden - would change my mind even if, as you describe, the prisons happen to be run by worse people than the normal inmates.
You are not describing law enforcement in a first world country. You're describing a gang of thugs in a warlord dictatorship.
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"Illegal aliens are not protected by the rights within the Constitution. "
Multiple US courts have judged otherwise. Quite clearly so.
Can you make just one single assertion which isn't factually flat-out wrong?
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"My DNA is USA Red White and Blue all the way baby!"
So in other words either you aren't from earth to begin with, or, and this is far more likely, you are such an ignorant dick you haven't a fucking clue what DNA is except that taking anything from brown-skinned people sounded great to you.
DNA won't tell you if you're american anymore than being identified as "homo sapiens" would.
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Well, trump's children would primarily be russian and German in DNA so i guess that fits our resident moron to a 'T'. He likes germans.
...well, the ones wearing the fancy uniforms back in '36, at least. Probably not so much the modern ones.
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"You have not been in jail recently if you believe that criminals do deserve due process"
Two things to take away from this:
You imply you've been to jail recently.
Neither of these present a positive view of you.
"Even those convicted by a jury of their peers for high crimes and misdemeanors doesn't always mean they were guilty of anything"
Which is a very good reason to retain the right to due process to minimise the number of people this happens to, right?
"Cops will beat the living daylights out of you as their take on due process doesn't prohibit extreme abuse."
In a civilised country, the right of due process includes the right to avoid extrajudicial punishment prior to conviction and the right to redress should those people abuse their power.
Are you saying that the US is not a civilised country?
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...and before. The morals and lessons of the cold war era were apparently jettisoned the moment Bush stopped reading My Pet Goat.
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Be sure to tell them that at your next Incel meeting.
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Now we know what the DNA screening is about; 100% Anglo or Nordic or GTFO.
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"destroying America"
idk, looks more like they want to enslave the entire planet. That never ends well.
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You need to look back a bit further
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I'm guessing this is the same asshat that made that claim last time.
It is like a child continuously asking for a cookie.
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Ahhh - no, obviously.
As everyone is aware, on the continent of South America one finds several countries full of people .... living in South America. I'm sure you have heard about some of these countries that big corps are turning into banana republics.
Also - the civil war was fought predominately upon the North American continent. But you knew all this, why be such a juvenile?
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What is anyone going to do about it?
The only reasons executive branch agencies get away with writing illegal policies is that the head of the executive branch lets it happen and the majority in the senate and/or congress either abdicated their own constitutional powers or wrote badly worded laws.
Guess who has power to put those terrible politicians into power?
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Indoctrination is a problem worldwide. Hopefully the human race will evolve socially and learn how to exist without the bullshit.
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But you knew all this, why be such a juvenile?
Did he really know?
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Land of the Fee and home of the Slave
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That would explain why he doesn't seem to post during school hours.
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Absolutely the US is not a civilized country. It is as bad as any other. It hides behind its broken judicial system to pretend to appear as if they are civilized. Most recently although there have been others like it, take Epstein murder. The people in high positions in the government are not civilized. They only push that malarky so that most people don't become like they are and are subdued only by the goodness in them and fear of winding up behind bars or worse. Look at the incivility here at techdirt. Some of your attacks on commenters are vicious. 👹
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Most of the comments I write here are of a fictional nature for my own entertainment. I love to rile the feathers of some of you who are so good at falling for my shit! lol
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If that’s what helps you sleep at night bro.
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Hmm. Interesting rant and twaddle. Just HOW do you decide that these innocent-unless-proven-guilty folk are actually "Illegal alien criminal fuckwads" WITHOUT due process?
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Oh I get some good laughs out of it. So many people are wound tighter than a piano around here!
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When you repeatedly do something, even for giggles, there is a point where it is no longer distinguishable between acting and reality.
So you may try to retreat from all the bull crap you posted already with your excuse of "I was just joking/trolling". But we already know it's not funny and that you have serious problems in your life. Because no amount of trolling is going to replace whatever you are missing so that you can mature emotionally, physically, mentally, or socially into a well adjusted human.
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If you think those people in power are going to let you or anyone else truly vote them out of power, you are indeed as gullable as they'd like us all to be. How easy was it for them to usurp the institution of voting? DUH 101
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They are not citizens. They don't have rights as citizens do. Don't try to obfuscate and infiltrate. That's not your MO here.
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Banana Republics are turning those corporations into their pet bitches!
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You must like dicks! You are always putting them down!
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No, just stop obfuscating, infiltrating and perpetuating the big lie.
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I suppose you have first hand knowledge of who actually tallies America's votes? I say they just dump them in a huge dumpster and put into office who ever they planned at least five years before.
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I have met so many good, bright, well educated, and well adjusted as well as charismatic, beautiful and charming Americans in my life that its so hard to understand how these same ugly, transparent, blahs keep turning up for the top jobs in our government. WTF
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You know, fuck those other countries.
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Trump is just another puppet with many many strings attached to him. The new world order needs for the country to have its scapegoats.
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They could build fortified sentry posts with particle beam weapons along the borders around America for a lot less money and hassle.
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Re: Worse than that.
Someone here at techdirt controls the BIG FLAG its so obvious that they are flagging every politically incorrect comment here probably for google points or advertising preference.
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Add to your argument that those illegals do not warrant due process and could also be suspected enemy combatants which would not give them even human rights except at the very lowest denominator.
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As mentioned, the Supreme Court says you’re wrong.
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Look, as we’ve already pointed out, the Supreme Court’s rulings in Zadvydas v. Davis, Plyler v. Doe, and Wong Win v. United States have explicitly ruled otherwise, and the “due process” clause in the 14th Amendment pretty clearly applies to any person based on a plain reading of the text, so you’re very clearly wrong here.
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This government has been very operative since the sixties dealing with the crackdown of hippies and free thinking. Squashing the free love and raining down upon Woodstock festivals and killing very vocal music icons was all part of a very carefully planned attack. This DNA gathering is just another thing. Its surprising they actually waited this long to start implimenting it. Chip implants are not far away people.
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You have just admitted to being a troll. Your posts will be judged accordingly. If you find that entertaining, then congratulations. I just find it mildly annoying and immature, but to each his own.
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Those were recent rulings and as always the Supreme court gets stacked by every administration and even the Supreme court has admitted they get it wrong.
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Re: Re: Worse than that.
Actually, except for when actual spam gets deleted or posts get held for moderation before posting, the people who run Techdirt don’t actually control the flagging-and-hiding-comments system beyond setting the parameters like how many flags are required to hide a comment. On their side, it’s basically all automated.
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Im laughing at what you just said! Thank you!
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Re: Re: Worse than that.
Also, that has absolutely nothing to do with the article you’re posting on or the comment you’re replying to at all, you provide no evidence whatsoever to back up your claim, and you’ve already admitted that you’re just trolling. Political incorrectness is one thing, but politically incorrect trolls are a completely different matter.
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Also known as the Rule of Goats.
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Says the admitted troll.
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There is definitely a reason humans were seperated by God at the tower of Babel when he brilliantly mixed up their languages. This being the first time in history since that the world is once again speaking a universal language and it will invite total havoc upon the planet by bringing the one ruler of the earth to power.
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The world of peoples by design were meant to be many races. It seems that in anthropologic terms humans keep encroaching upon that boundary.
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What language is that?
There are 7.7 billion humans on Earth, and no one language is spoken by more than ~1.1 billion of them.
"14% of the population" is a strange definition of "universal."
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Fair and Balanced
We ask, you decide
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"This government ... since the sixties"
This? the 60s?
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Trump wearing his new clothes would not be allowed on public television.
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“Recent”? One of those cases was decided in the 19th century! And a Supreme Court decision is rarely overturned, especially when there have been multiple decisions saying it over a long period of time.
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What does this have to do with anything?
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Look, the Supreme Court has consistently ruled on this contrary to your assertion multiple times between the 19th century and more recent times, the language of the Constitution that guarantees due process includes no such limitations, the Geneva Convention does give even known enemy combatants basic human rights, and there is no indication that even one of the persons being detained are suspected to be enemy combatants. We even gave Saddam Hussein and terrorists who plotted 9/11 (and some other acts of terrorism on US soil) at least some due process, you know. And yet you can’t give the same rights to any person detained as an unlawful resident/immigrant because it’s hypothetically possible that some of them might be suspected by someone of possibly being an enemy combatant? Seriously?
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Agreed, but—and at the risk of severely derailing this thread—how would that even work?
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I take it you’re a “race realist”, then?
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English is being taught in schools around the world. English is the new universal language by which all people of the world can communicate or translate from to their language.
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Nice try but I am floating on my 42' Hunter off the Bahamas.
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Spit it out man.. say what's on your mind. I was there and I can still remember (contrary to the joke)!
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And yet, again, no single language is being spoken by more than 14% of the Earth’s population. So no, it is not a universal language. At least not yet.
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That may explain a few things…
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Who said that? Trolls by their very existence are bedevilled lowly creatures. You have to drag that out of me! I ain't signing nothing! It is so obvious that someone just flipped the switch on this conversation!
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You and I are related though.
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I was in for twelve days over a small matter where the jailers defied a judge's order to administer the medicine for my neuropathy in my feet so I could at last sleep at night until I could resolve the matter. They refused the order and I did not sleep one fucking minute in TWELVE DAYS. At which point I was so near death, I copped pleas to shit I was not guilty of just to get out of that fucking jail (and I hope that whole fucking place gets destroyed by a cataclysm like asteroids hitting Jupiter). What they did was destroy my right to due process and they do it every day. They are not Americans.
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What that I a fucking bull. I spent more time on 30' seas dragging seamonsters out of the gulf of Alaska than you've spent picking your nose.
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Where did you serve?
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If you don't think that different cultures around the world including the states have not lived with immense racism and begrudge being mixed and blended with other races, losing their historic and ancestrial identities isn't a real issue, one that you will never be clear of, then you are deceiving yourselves.
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From this comment:
Most people would consider that the textbook definition of trolling: making stuff up (particularly stuff that you know or believe to be false) to cause offense or “rile feathers” of those who take it seriously for the purpose of your own entertainment, rather than to express a genuine opinion, elicit addition information of interest, express genuine emotions, proffer potential theories or hypotheses, or have a genuine discussion.
Based on this comment, I feel I can safely conclude that the AC I was addressing has effectively admitted to being a troll. It seems pretty straightforward to me, actually. Whether you are that AC, I don’t know. If you are, you must have changed IP addresses between that comment and this one.
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I’m unsure what you could be referring to, or how that matters here.
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The key to not getting your posts here flagged is pretty simple...
Don't be an asshat.
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Well, what they did was wrong and unlawful—un-American, even—but I don’t think that actually makes them not Americans.
At any rate, whether or not someone gets due process, is legally required to get due process, deserves due process, or should get due process are all very different questions.
Essentially, you’re saying that because some bad actors failed to give you and some other alleged criminals due process (or at least follow the results of that due process), that must mean that criminals don’t deserve due process, and therefore illegal residents/immigrants are not legally required to be given due process. However, the fact is that the first assertion (which I’ll accept as true) doesn’t prove the second or third claims, nor does the second claim prove the third. This is not a valid argument, even if the initial premise (some alleged or convicted criminals are effectively denied due process) is true.
For the record, what happened to you is wrong and terrible, and I can conceive of no lawful or rational basis to justify it. It also helps me understand your bitterness. However, in the end, it doesn’t justify your conclusion.
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That’s not actually saying much, nor is that evidence of anything material or relevant to this discussion.
At any rate, I was kinda making a joke. The idea was that, as someone who still remembers the sixties, you were presumably exposed to a lot of culture that sees the government as antagonistic and untrustworthy, which would explain your cynicism. (For the purpose of this discussion at this time, I take no position on whether or not such cynicism is justified.) That got me to thinking that maybe you were a hippie, and maybe you did drugs, and maybe you still do drugs, and that leads to you making crazy arguments. It was a dumb joke, I realize, but it was never actually meant to mean anything serious.
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I respect and support our troops and all, but I don’t think one needs to serve in the U.S. Armed Forces in order to be a “real American”. Of course, it is also true that, with very few exceptions, I generally believe that serving in the Armed Forces does tend to make one a “real American” by most measures.
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Not that I disagree (though that’s partly because I’m unsure if you’re saying that racism is a real issue or that mixing races is a real issue), but I’m not entirely sure how that is responding to anything Stephen said in the comment you’re replying to.
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Since 9-11 and the patriot act this government has intentionally gone bonkers.
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DNA collection data base is the ultimate genocide litmus test. These kinds of policies or acts you'd expect to come from nazi germany, not the good ol US of A.
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It tears me up when the government is caught red handed acting in bad faith against citizens of our country and the men and women who joined the military to serve this country in good faith, even at the risk of their own lives. And to hear people mouthing off as if they were real patriots of our country but have never even enlisted in the Armed forces.
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Races and racism is never going away. They are teaching now adays how its bad to judge people by the color of their skin. But they don't teach how its not a good thing to judge people in any light. Cultures are still very proud of the colors of their skin. They distinguish histories and suffering and triumps throughout the ages. People should enjoy each other's cultures but not to the point they are lost in this hysteria of race and racism. People's freedom are more important.
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Mostly in your imagination. I see generally rather calm and resonable replies. But, you know, whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
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Well, it realky oisses me off that military religionists think they have a corner on patriotism or or being a real American. Hate to break it to you, but the proportion of assholes is the same in the armed services as outside. And anyone joining in good faith, especially in the last 20 or 30 years, when you know exactly that the government (including DOD and Pentagon) have been using the troops in bad faith consistently, has something wrong with them. You are supporting the evil of those who ill use you, and their ability to make war. Good work.
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Maybe in 25 or 50 years they can use the DNA data to identify the occupants of mass graves which will eventually turn up.
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This troll is on his death bed so basically I need the entertainment. I lived long and hard and I cringe at all the panzies comments here as if they had anything of value for lufe. You are laughable so thats why I do it. You are one of the more respectable tders I admit. I am humbled at your civility.
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You know, I've been reading thousands of comments from commenters here at techdirt since it all started in 1999 or close to that. I have seen the results of decisions from governments, corporations, groups and individuals. I have been watching a world full of greed and hostility and sadists and it has just embittered me to the max. All people here don't have the answers or the where with all to change shit for the better. The assholes with the money and power still fuck with people and the planet to no end. This world sucks. So say what you want about goddamn trolling. Its better than being a panzy ass government licking corporate coddler.
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Try Twelve days with no sleep there monastery then come back and tell me how much I suck.
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Extrajudicial punishment! taboo! you are reading that from a book? Go have the cops called on you for doing absolutely nothing wrong and go to jail and kiss up the fucking corrupt judicial ststem and come back with your report after you are tortured for twelve days from total sleep deprivation by a jail system that defies court orders and denies your due process until you are on the brink of death so you cop a plea so you can finally fall to sleep, also for which it has completely changed me as I never fully recovered from that trauma.. and then come back here to techdirt with your report. Id like to read it PaulT.
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Because the court bent that way is no proof that it was supposed to be that way. These aliens have been tweaking all possible loopholes in our constitution to use it against us for a long time. Now that the libe are in the seats of judiciary they are just making it easier for illegal aliens to play the system. So I see it my way and you see it their way. Have you offered up a sandwich to an illegal alien ever? I help homeless people and sick children, and never ask them for their papers. But fuck, we can't be letting these people flock into our country like there were no borders.
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go fuck yourself scrawny.
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You know you love to have a name for your definitions, but I say let it go. You have just succumbed to the new world order of things and libtardology, maybe someday you'll see more clearly.
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That I will claim you were a victim of darwinism.
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You don't see the silliness here? American DNA its a fucking joke bhull! You are a piano too tightly wound! You are just hungry to sink your teeth into something. Why do you even come to techdirt like a fish at the bottom side of a dam waiting for a tidbit to float by and chomp on it and wag your tail.
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Well, now we are getting somewhere. I have been pushed down the sidewalk by an angel. It was a terrible thing. I really don't want to recall the circumstances which lead up to it, but to lose one's faith is the worst thing in life. I will never recover from that.
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Race realist, Real racist.. call it whatever you like. It does not matter. I have so many friends of all nationalities and skin tones. My thing is that people are losing liberty and freedom. These politicians are injecting poison into our culture. They are telling us how to live, how to think, what to say and you people are biting the hook. You should be against their advancing forces. I know I sure didn't invite their draconian asses to my party. They love to rain on festivals, soak a half million peaceful Americans turn their music weekends into mudbaths. I saw them seeding the clouds. So did others. I pissed but they already killed me. Very little left to fightwith. Just don't let them take your souls.
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And after all's said and done you can bet Hamilton will still be using his VPN to scream that Shiva Ayyadurai invented email.
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Somebody has to fight for my family, if not me then who? You? Thanks but I'd rather trust myself for that job. You stay on the outside then, asshole.
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Oh you are such a schmoozer with that wit. That is what I'm talking about. Oh the entertainment!
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He did sign into law the government's right to take your property WITHOUT DUE PROCESS. It was the first thing tHEY had him sign.
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Or, to steal a line from They Might Be Giants:
Can’t shake the devil’s hand and say you’re only kidding
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I feel bad for you, son, but your shitty life experience isn’t an excuse for denying due process to everyone within the borders of the United States.
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My country, right or wrong — if right, to be kept right; if wrong, to be set right.
Patriotism is love for one’s country. Some of the most patriotic Americans are those who question the decisions of those in power, including the use of the military. Blind, unyielding fealty to the government and the military in spite of its failings makes you a bootlicking nationalist.
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That “joke” fell flatter on its face than Ric Flair.
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[citation needed]
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Oh, hey, you’re one of those Rapture-wantin’ apocalypse cultists. How charming~.
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Irrelevant to the discussion. Whether you think the American government should treat immigrants like animals has no bearing on what the Supreme Court says about whether the Constitution protects non-citizens on American soil.
Where have you been hiding the past three years? Between putting two justices on the Supreme Court and stacking federal courts with conservative ideologues in a bid to undo Roe v Wade (among other things), the Trump administration has made sure the American judiciary will lean conservative for at least a generation.
Y’know, not for nothin’, but neither you nor any other troll who suggests that anyone here said they are in favor of “open borders” have ever offered a direct citation for that claim. And I’m not betting on you producing one now, either.
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The Constitution and the Supreme Court both say otherwise.
Not an excuse. Even people shipped off to Guantanamo Bay had at least some semblance of due process afforded to them.
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What a pathetic existence you must lead in real life, if acting like this is what creates the bright spot in your day.
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So, because you suffered you wish to remove the due process protections that prevent others from suffering the same?
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Th’fuck do Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, and Hulk Hogan have to do with any of this?
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Asset forfeiture has been around a lot longer that Trump.
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So tell me, what exactly have you achieved by trolling a tech blog, bearing in mind that we're the opposite of government-licking corporate coddlers per your fellow troll Blue Balls?
Express your frustrations by all means, but if you want sympathy that's the wrong way to get it.
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Indeed. Have you noticed you were treated as one who did not deserve due process? Assuming you're telling the truth, the people who treated you so badly think in the same way that you do.
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As a matter of fact, it's the other way around. The corporations bankroll banana republic dictators to keep worker rights down and profits up.
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They just need a cymbal/high-hat emoji to go with 🥁.
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don't be a putz.
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So is Chinese, so are Arabic and Hindi/Urdu.
Heck, by that description, so are Latin and Hebrew.
Except for that whole "A supermajority of them can't communicate using it" thing.
Absolutely. As everyone knows, Translation between English and every other language is a simple task that has long since been perfected. English says to all other languages, "You have no chance to survive make your time. Ha ha ha ha."
/s
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I am spot on telling the truth about my experience, but do you see how aliens from outside our country game the system here in the US? We can't take in everyone who wants to come here. It would further destroy our country. Growth rates would be off the charts. Our very means to live would become unsustainable. Costs would rise beyond our means. Our government has to be wise enough to see that an exodus will cripple our country. It will cripple the courts and our economy.
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There is an anonymous coward that has infiltrated this conversation who is hypertrolling this in order to subtrifuge and confuse in the same manner as do cia in order to disfuse all logic and waste the time of you good people at techdirt. So act accordingly, having thus been warned.
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When did I ever say the government should be treating the illegal aliens like animals. They are citizens of foreign countries. There should be at least a bare minimum requirement of them to enter our country at least. Even more stringent requirements if they wish to stay. What a wild wxodus of foreigners will do to this country is beyond most comprehension.
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You missed the point of that post to mock those fucking corporations.
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The whole Gawker saga starts to make a lot more sense if you think of it as a fight against a shadowy group of wrestlers striving for world domination.
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Influx.
An exodus is a bunch of people leaving a given country.
Granted, a mass exodus from the US would cripple the country's economy, but I doubt that's what you're talking about.
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I have built over a hundred houses/ mansions with more than at least eight different assorted nationalities. I have friends in Ethiopia, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Thailand, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Germany, Ukraine, Russia, China, South Africa, Iceland and UK as well as many people in the States. All skin tones. Never have I been prejudiced against race, but culture of isolated race incidents, yes.
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Also friends in Chili, Jamaica, Sri Lanka, and India.
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But it is a second language to the world that is being taught to that end.
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You really don't know me to say that Stone(r).
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lol No it didn't. 🤠
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bhull, I like you. I can sense your calm spirit.
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No I don't support their evil or whatever their political agendas may be. I support the citizens of our country, you know the innocent lives that matter. Don't try to drag me into their shit.
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And it's not unique in doing so, that's a role that's been filled, in the past, by French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Latin, Greek, Aramaic, Egyptian, Chinese, Sanskrit…
English is, indeed, being widely used as a lingua franca at the moment. But the fact that the term "lingua franca" exists (and doesn't originate in English) should be a huge hint that this is not the first time such a thing has happened.
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By implying that the only innocent lives that matter are the citizens of your country, you're repeating one of their bellicose talking points, and dragging yourself into their shit.
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Look, your admittedly horrific experience is not the norm in this country, or at least you haven’t offered more than an anecdote as evidence that it is. It certainly isn’t evidence that we should deny others rights they are entitled to. It’s evidence that some people ignore people’s rights.
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Even presuming your logic is sound, none of that justifies ignoring anyone’s rights to due process.
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Sure, but none of that refutes what I said. I specifically mentioned cases where due process was given to terrorists and enemy combatants after 9/11 and the Patriot Act.
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The United States refused to accept nearly 1,000 Jewish refugees fleeing from Nazi Germany. How many of them were “innocent lives”? How many of them “mattered”? What made those Jews objectively any less important than Americans, other than the patch of dirt on which members of either group were born?
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It was rhetorical hyperbole. The point is that what you think the law should be has no bearing on what the law is. And the law clearly says that even illegal aliens have the right to due process.
Sure. No one has said otherwise. None of that refutes what Stephen or anyone else has said. Even if they fail to meet those requirements, they still have certain rights.
First of all, it’s “influx”. An exodus would involve a bunch of people leaving this country, not entering.
Second, that is immaterial to whether illegal aliens do or should have rights. That is only an argument in favor of placing restrictions on who may enter or stay, something none of us dispute in the first place.
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The “I have a _____ friend” argument is so cliche. It proves absolutely nothing.
So you know, being a racist doesn’t necessarily involve discrimination or having negative beliefs about people because of their race. Positive racism is still racism. And even people who have lower opinions of a given race may still have positive opinions of some specific members of that race and be friends with them:
In short, you have offered nothing that is actually a defense against the real accusation here.
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[citation needed]
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So you’re also opposed to the Theory of Evolution, huh? What’s next? Are you going to tell us that the Earth is flat? Talk about Intelligent Falling?
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My main point in that comment was that there are legitimate reasons to not want just anyone to have samples of their DNA beyond just ancestry. I specifically set aside the issue of “American DNA”.
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Yes it did!
(Note: this is a reference to Monty Python.)
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To reiterate: while I would certainly consider enlistment to be really good evidence that one is a patriot, it is not a prerequisite. The military doesn’t have a monopoly on patriotism.
Also, American patriot =/= real American, nor do patriots have a monopoly on the right to criticize the government or its decisions regarding the military.
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I think I can kinda understand what you’re saying, and I can (tentatively) agree on most of that. People have the right to take pride in their race. Though for the record, I’m not opposed to mixing races and/or cultures, and I’m not really seeing much danger in this regard.
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I don’t think that point was missed. It was just a bad joke.
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None of that has the slightest bit of relevance to anything I said.
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No one said you suck. Just your arguments.
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I’d be wary of that phrasing. You might end up with a Klan member saying “White Pride!” and claiming you support them.
A safer/more personally considerate way of saying that would replace “race” with “ethnicity”. A White American has every right to be proud of their race and ethnicity, but while saying you’re a proud White man might get you stared at like you’re wearing a hood, saying you’re a proud descendant of Germans or Swedes generally won’t.
Besides, “pride” in the context of race — and sexual identity — is, at least in the U.S., less about superiority and more about survival. “Black pride” is about surviving in a society that was designed around (and operates on) the assumption of “Black people are subhuman”. “Gay pride” is about surviving in a society that is, at best, indifferent to gay people. But “White pride” and “straight pride” are attempts to co-opt the language of progressives and the marginalized. They are not about pride in being marginalized, but about pride in being “superior” due to sheer numbers and sociopolitical systems biased in their favor.
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You don't get it that all these illegal aliens or a lot of them come here to do just that. Tie up our system and game our constitution having entered illegally without even the means to sustain themselves. They are citizens in another country. All they are or should be entitled to is return trip to where they come from. That's it. They now get fed, vetted and fed, soon their DNA goes into Federal hands. And bam, they're on the bus back to their country.
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lol
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Thanks Doc.
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I didn't start the arguments!
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Due process does not have anything to do with these aliens unless they have committed crime. Processing them to vet them in order to identify them is not Due process. You people are confused. They do not come as immigrants, but as invaders. Immigration from the US into other countries requires a lot of money. How can you call it immigration when they simply cross over the border into our country posing risks and threats as they come with nothing more than the sweater in their hands. They left their belongings and life in their country. Since 9-11, the US has been at war with the very kinds of threats that you are protecting. That was not the architects of our constitution's intent.
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Do be such a dry witted dingleberry.
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What, am I on fucking trial at techdirt? You motherfuckers are just as much without any bearing on the truth, but just seem to suck up to those who have usurped it.
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I am opposed to all theories that leave God out of the picture.
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This government wanting peoples' DNA in a database is so fucking wrong. You talk about BAD FAITH, this reeks of guilty before proven innocent.
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They are gathering evidence to be used against human beings before there has been any crime to feed their precogs.
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Now how do you like your Due Process now?
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Fair enough. They can take pride in their culture, heritage, and ethnicity. Is that fine?
And the whole “white pride” or “straight pride” thing is one reason why my agreement was tentative.
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So the second post in this comments section wasn't yours?
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That said, I do believe this sort of caution with language like that is one reason why some people think that PC culture is out of control. I don’t necessarily agree, but I just thought I’d mention it.
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Notice how he still hasn't answered exactly what collecting DNA from anyone detained by ICE/CBP would accomplish, or how it would be used to prevent people from entering the country illegally?
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The DNA thing had no logical connection to the rest of that.
We have this thing called “due process”. We have to prove that these are, in fact, illegal aliens first, for one thing. And everyone, here legally or not, is entitled to due process. Period.
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When did I say you started the arguments, and how is that a defense or mitigating factor against my claim that people have said that your arguments suck but not that you suck, or the general claim that your arguments suck?
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This is an American conversation. All others "bugger off."
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Don't have to serve to be a real American. But I was in Panama and Iraq the first time.
So how about you...where did you serve?
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Do you actually hear yourself texting? Whites have been reverse discriminated against for more than three decades. We have had to endure bazaar laws regulating token minorities in everything from pinball machines to church services. Law that have destroyed freedom and liberty. We have had laws concerning gay rights shoved up our wahzoos until we had to puke.
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No, a trial involves due process which ia something you seek to deny to accused illegal immigrants.
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First, haven’t you been saying that being an illegal alien is a crime?
Second, illegal immigration is still immigration. All immigration means is someone travels from one country to another, primarily with the intention of staying for a long-time, indefinitely, or permanently. Having nothing doesn’t prove that they ever intend to return to their original home country, and while immigration is often costly, that 1) presumes that they’re coming legally, 2) ignores refugees, which is a less costly process, and 3) may be covered by someone from within the US.
Third, due process is required to convict someone of a crime, prove that someone did something unlawful, and/or deprive them of their rights, including the right not to have their genes taken. And yes, that also includes the allegation that someone is present unlawfully. You also need to go through due process in order to prove that, and that deportation is a lawful and appropriate remedy.
Fourth, even invaders are entitled to due process. Everyone is entitled to due process within our borders, no matter how heinous the crime, how obvious their culpability, or how much we may dislike them.
Fifth, even legal immigrants may pose some risk or threat to us. Every single one of the terrorists in the U.S. have been either U.S. citizens or foreigners with all the necessary legal documents and permissions necessary to be within our country. This includes the people who directly participated in 9/11. Compared to U.S. citizens and legal residents, the proportion of illegal aliens who commit violent, sexual, or heinous crimes is much smaller.
Sixth, if the only thing they’re bringing with them is the sweater in their hands, how much of a risk do they really pose?
Seventh, yes, actually, processing, vetting, and identifying potential immigrants/aliens is part of due process, though none of us had actually been talking about that.
Eighth, the founders intended to avoid the government forcibly deporting people on a whim, something that people did have to worry about in many countries at that time. Also, the founders only intended to allow white male property owners to vote, and you’re ignoring that one of the relevant, operative parts of the Constitution—the 14th Amendment—had noting to do with what the original authors of the Constitution had in mind, which is why the Constitution was amended in the first place.
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You would know about snowflake wouldn't you?
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You’re not on trial, but we do know a bad argument when we see them. I offered my opinion, based on a number of your comments, that you were likely a race realist, an accusation you didn’t quite deny, but then you decided to rant about all these nonwhite friends you have, to which I responded by pointed out how old that argument is, and that it doesn’t prove anything.
I don’t know why you’re so defensive about that, but this isn’t a trial or anything. It’s an online discussion. If you’re unable to withstand your arguments getting this level of scrutiny, you’re in the wrong place.
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Those immigrants hang wire at neck height on trails to take the heads off border patrol agents. I hope you people never get into office to push your pitiful policies on the American people. We got our hands full already.
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Your ignorance is shining through, but its not enlightening.
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Flamebaiting alphabet sucker.
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I do know you didn't.
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They'll turn up when the polar ice caps are gone.
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Listen fucknut, America has fighting for the freedom of countries around the globe giving their live for strangers they've never met. Don't try to make this about your pathetic life.
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You know that the Theory of Evolution being true doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist. You’re essentially saying that all of science and medicine should be disregarded because they don’t consider the possibility of the existence of God, which is something that—by its nature—science is simply unable to test because science is solely concerning the natural world. By their nature, a scientific theory cannot factor in or include the possiblility of any supernatural being, influence, or phenomenon like God. And yet it is undeniable that the theories, ideas, methods, insights, discoveries, and inventions science has given us work, work well, and have been incredibly useful. To disregard all of that simply because it does not expressly consider God is absurd and extremely closeminded.
However, I’m uninterested in having this debate here. This isn’t supposed to be a discussion of the Theory of Evolution anyways.
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I agree.
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Citation needed
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I have mentioned that whether or not they are entitled to due process and whether or not they are actually getting due process are different questions. They should have the same answer, but often, and especially but certainly not exclusively involving this administration, they don’t.
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That really is the kicker to the argument I'm seeing. 'I was treated badly, so others deserve it too' ignores that under that argument they got exactly what they had coming to them since others have been treated similarly in the past, and they therefore deserve no sympathy whatsoever.
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You have no right to decide who can or cannot provide input for this discussion. I, for one, welcome any insight or opinions from both Americans and non-Americans.
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[citation needed]
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Also, letting gays have the same rights that straight people do isn’t forcing you to do anything.
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Absolutely. That approach is the ideal approach for everyone. 👍
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As I’ve said before, I prefer to think of “PC” as meaning “personally considerate”, since it implies that the caution comes from consideration for others rather than for yourself (“politically correct”).
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The fact that you’re complaining about racial diversity (which sounds awfully racist) and the civil rights of gay people (which don’t affect your civil rights in any way) says a lot about you.
Ain’t none of it good, chief.
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Yeah ok but Presidents that served in the military do have more credibility with the troops they command.
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I was so far north there were no trees for the enemy to hide behind.
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And who here, pray tell, has argued for that?
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You sound like you are taking notes of your own epiphanies!
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The voices in his head?
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The outsiders are getting bloody rude!
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Oh I feed the birds is that what you're saying or Im flighty? My cage door is wide open? Just what is that crack suppose to mean, Rosy Palmer?
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Its all a bloofin show! Don't you get it? They pretend play to be pitted against each other! It a fucking joke what they're doing. Oh and rile them thell get pissy and show you their power, but they sold out our country.
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Fair enough. Remember the oath you swore, especially the part about "supporting and defending the Constitution of the United States"?
Exactly how does that reconcile with your stated belief that only certain people are entitled to its protections, especially considering the Supreme Court has stated just the opposite making it the law of the land?
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Even if I were to agree with this (and I don’t), for what reason should that justify denying due process and civil rights protections to undocumented immigrants?
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It means even old New York was once New Amsterdam. (Why’d they change it? I can’t say.)
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They are all giving in to corporate. Who opened ANWR? Who sold America to natural gassers polluting our water tables for a million years? Who sold our offshore to our enemies energy suppliers? Who sold 20% of our yellowcake mining reserves? Who tore down the Air Quality Monitoring Stations all over our Country? Who is tunneling through our nation's Aquifer systems across the entire map? Who continues to poison what's left of our water supplies with fluoricllyllicic acid? Who continues to spray our nation's crops with monsanto's poisons? Who continues to dump aluminum oxides and barium salts and fibreglass nanoparticles into our atmoshere? Who continues to heat the ionosphere around the globe with ionospheric heaters and haarp stations on every continent? Who has the tough answers to the questions that are killing mankind?
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Don't you read or listen to the news? Our border patrol agents were getting beheaded while patrolling on their quads. Go find it yourself. I can't be your mother anymore.
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The electoral college is a bowl of hogwash. That needs to abolished.
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That remark is beneath notice.
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You made the claim, so it's up to you to prove it.
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No, but when my former minister has to go to jail because he refused to marry two lesbians made me go elsewhere on Sundays.
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And Google's search results show only a CBP agent being arrested after a headless body was found.
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I have to drive out of my way now because the bakery closed because My bakery chef refused to make a gay cake. Don't tell me about the laws that impede my freedom so others can go skipping around hand in hand.
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The little elderly lady that decided she wasn't going to sit in the back of the bus anymore.. I loved that lady from a very early age. And when I saw those bastards hitting those kids with bully clubs, I wanted those fuckers to die when I was just a kid. I think that was in Alabama Montgomery maybe. Was it Rosa Parks on the bus?
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You are wrong. Those people and those laws representing them are in absolute direct violation of the spiritual heart of our nation's foundation. Gay people either have to make peace with God and stop their gayness or they will drag a whole nation into hell with them.
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Well, in that case, would you mind if I balance a glass of milk where your visiting friend accidentally was killed?
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Three things.
A cake is a cake; it can’t be gay or straight.
No bakery has ever gone out of business explicitly and only because it refused to bake a cake for a gay couple.
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No member of the clergy from any religious group has ever gone to jail in the United States for refusing to hold a religious ritual for gay people. You can’t cite a single case of that ever happening because if you could, I guarantee the whole world would have already known about it first. So, hey, word of advice for you: If you’re going to lie, tell plausible lies that can’t be easily debunked.
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Christianity isn’t the official religion of the United States. A good number of the Founding Fathers were deists who had issues with Christianity. Oh, and God would have already destroyed humanity if She had that much of a problem with the gay people She put on Earth in the first place.
Your opinions of gay people don’t deserve to become the law. And you can’t reasonably justify why they should.
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I’m not seeing any reverse discrimination or “laws concerning gay rights shoved up our wahzoos” there.
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That is something that has never happened. No US law requires any religious leader (or anyone other than a government employee) to marry any particular couple, gay or otherwise.
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Maybe you missed the memo, but this country was founded on secular principles. Most of the founders were deists, not quite devout Christians, and they all wanted to keep church and state separated. There’s also the establishment clause of the Constitution, which is a clear prohibition on making laws based on religion like that. So you’re wrong on both the law and the history.
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It is not discrimination to punish those who discriminate.
Cakes don’t have a sexual orientation.
I don’t recall any bakery ever being closed down for refusing to bake a cake for gay couples.
Those rights also protect straight people. If someone refuses to bake a cake for a straight couple on the basis of their straightness, the law would treat them no differently than if they refuse to bake a cake for a gay couple on the basis of their gayness.
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They haven’t been any worse than you have been.
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And yet you deigned to notice it.
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You are such an ass Stone.
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Here’s how discussions work: if you make the claim, you have the burden of proof. If you won’t or can’t provide evidence to back up your claim, Hitchen’s Razor says that it can be disregarded.
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Good luck getting your hatpin.
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Of all the things he’s said to you just over the past couple of hours, this is the one you think is offensive? How is this being an ass?
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I’m confused. What hatpin?
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It was all over the news. I am only the messenger. It happened and I don't have to prove a motherfucking thing to you or anyone here or anywhere else on this planet.
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Nice...can't provide any proof to your claims when challenged so you respond with insults. Not exactly the best way to prove your point.
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In that case, we have no reason to believe you. If you cannot provide even a single link to a single article claiming that this thing that “was all over the news” actually happened, then it’s safe to say you’re mistaken or lying.
And at any rate, the idea is so ridiculous to begin with. What would that even accomplish?
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I take absolutely the GREATEST OFFENSE OF ANYONE WHO CALLS GOD A WOMAN.
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You can't see the end of the world coming if it was staring you in the face. You people seem like you just arrived on the planet. Good luck.
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You know, I’m a Christian myself, but I’m not sure if God even has a gender. Sure, we call God “Father”, “He”, and “Him”, but that could very well just be a result of the patriarchal society of the times and some translation issues.
Seriously, what is so offensive about someone calling God a woman? If that is considered the worst of offenses to you, you’re really in the wrong place.
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Are you from one of those Doomsday cults or something. I seem to recall the Bible warning about those.
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I suppose that’s fair if only because I’d expect a President with military experience to have more empathy with the troops and maybe more knowledge of proper tactics.
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Yeah ok if that floats your boat. I do know some things that no matter what you believe or know isn't going to change what is going to happen. And you won't believe it even as its happening to you. You are responsible for yourself, not me.
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So have countries like Britain, you know.
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Go salute yourself. You wouldn't believe me anyway you a self proclaimed Christian. I have no duty to you.
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Well, whatever our differences, I appreciate the complement. I do try. Some try my patience, but as far as commenters go, I can certainly say I’ve dealt with far worse than you just within the past week.
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God is an omniscient, omnipresent deity, so I doubt God would even have a gender. But if God did have a gender, and it turned out to be female, what would you do?
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If God is going to eventually wipe out the world no matter what, for what reason should we roll back the clock on civil rights for queer people? It’s not like that would change what is going to happen.
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It’s not exactly “self-proclaimed”. I attend church, say my prayers, give to the poor, perform with the church choir, vote for council members, read the Bible every now and then. I’m not trying to brag or anything, but I don’t feel like my Christianity is purely because I say “I’m a Christian”; I feel like I’m actually a fairly active member of my church.
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That’s exactly what I was thinking. Why should God have to be confined to such mortal, human notions as “male” or “female”?
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In fact, as I recall, the Bible says nothing about God changing the timetable for the Second Coming as a result of any human action, and God also promised Noah that he would never end all human life just to punish sins, so why would this gay-marriage issue have any effect on when God comes to end the world anyways?
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But he knows things, so we're just supposed to believe him without question because he says so.
It doesn't matter what the rest of us know, because we're all wrong in his mind.
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Do you really think someone crossing into this country and trying to evade CBP would take the time to bring/find wire, find two things to anchor it to at neck height, and take the time to do so?
I don't ever remember hearing anything like that in the news, but it is possible I missed it (unlikely as that is).
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So, funny thing. I searched for “border patrol beheadings” to see if anything came up. The only relevant results were about the death of Jose Francisco Palacios Paz, who was murdered via beheading because he was going to inform on a drug trafficking operation. He was murdered by two brothers of a Border Patrol agent; the agent himself was working with the cartels to smuggle guns and drugs. Although I did see a few stories about Border Patrol agents dying in the line of duty, I could find no stories of Border Patrol agents being beheaded while on patrol. If you’re going to lie, stop telling lies that can be easily debunked by a single Google search.
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It's not, petty insults and feigning offense are their fallbacks when they can't come up with anything better.
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"my former minister has to go to jail because he refused to marry two lesbians "
Citation needed.
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"the spiritual heart of our nation's foundation"
The foundation that explicitly desired to separate church and state?
"or they will drag a whole nation into hell with them."
Your god will doom hundreds of millions of people to eternal damnation because a small minority of them did something he didn't like, largely by virtue of the traits he personally installed in him?
He sounds like a complete asshole.
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"I have to drive out of my way now because the bakery closed because My bakery chef refused to make a gay cake."
How do you tell that the cake is gay?
Anyway, if true then now you know what the gay people would have had to go through had the bakers been allow to discriminate. Wouldn't it be better for everybody if he wasn't such a bigoted dickhead?
"the laws that impede my freedom"
They only impede your ability to impede the freedom of the rights of others. If the defining element of your personality is that you need to be able to reduce the rights of other people, that's on you. I seem to recall some Jesus fellow having different statements on how you treat your neighbours.
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Indeed. What does that have to do with the fact that right wingers who whined endlessly about irrelevant trivia during the last administration are fine with turning a blind eye to serious crimes so long as their team is in charge?
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You mean the foundation that led them to forbid the establishment of a state religion, as the very first amendment to the constitution to be passed by congress or ratified?
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Unlike, say, France. I've never heard of the French fighting for the freedom of a country across an ocean from it.
And it's funny how, when America leaves those countries, the people are just about as free (or less) as they were when the Americans arrived, with the main difference being that the people in charge are more willing to do business with the American government.
I don't want to cast any aspersions on the soldiers themselves (except for the ones who are committing war crimes, or the ones helping cover up for those ones), but the two biggest examples of Americans "giving their lives for strangers they've never met" since 9/11 have been Afghanistan and Iraq... and the populations of those two countries don't exactly seem to have a particularly favourable impression of Americans after being "freed." Strange, that.
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We get it; you're violently allergic to reality.
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Step away from the mirror, kid.
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Of course not. Because Shiva Ayyadurai didn't invent email.
OH SNAP!
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But...given that due process is how you find out if someone is an illegal alien criminal fuckwad in the first place, how would you stop the legal system from throwing everyone, you included, back across the border?
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German is the most common ethnicity in the United States and not different enough from polish, british, or french to be dissimilar.
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"Not an excuse. Even people shipped off to Guantanamo Bay had at least some semblance of due process afforded to them."
Granted, in many cases that "process" was revealed to be a bunch of Afghani thugs beating some old icecream vendor in kabul unconscious and selling him to a squad of american troops as "Usama Bin Laden's personal driver".
But at least there was a process, even if it relied extensively on what american troops got told by opportunistic afghanistan slavers.
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"Now we know what the DNA screening is about; 100% Anglo or Nordic or GTFO."
That's going to suck for quite a few very surprised good ole boys in good standing with the KKK...
https://www.statnews.com/2017/08/16/white-nationalists-genetic-ancestry-test/
"...It was a strange moment of triumph against racism: The gun-slinging white supremacist Craig Cobb, dressed up for daytime TV in a dark suit and red tie, hearing that his DNA testing revealed his ancestry to be only “86 percent European, and … 14 percent Sub-Saharan African."
That said using DNA to screen for "ethnic" markers is a finicky and highly error-prone business to begin with. It's at best a "best guess" approach.
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"Because the court bent that way is no proof that it was supposed to be that way."
So you reject the constitution, as written.
And you reject the interpretation of it by SCOTUS.
I have news for you in that case. If neither the constitution nor court interpretations of it agree with you then perhaps you need to face the fact that you don't, in fact, give a shit about that constitution and are just being a racist prick who's screaming "Ausländer Raus!".
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"It is like a child continuously asking for a cookie."
...or a religious nut, which isn't too far from the faith-based arguments slung around by the KKK these days.
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"This being the first time in history since that the world is once again speaking a universal language and it will invite total havoc upon the planet by bringing the one ruler of the earth to power."
That would be Mandarin, then, and China.
If there are more topics, other than genetics, linguistics, geography, law and history that you are a complete lackwit at just feel free to inform us.
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"You might end up with a Klan member saying “White Pride!” and claiming you support them."
Well, to be fair, if I ever saw a march of Klan members protesting for their LGBTQ-rights I'd be...a bit torn, because I'd more or less have to support that. Probably while trying not to laugh, but still...
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"My bakery chef refused to make a gay cake."
...cakes have sexual orientation now? What's it made of, soylent green?
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"German is the most common ethnicity in the United States and not different enough from polish, british, or french to be dissimilar."
Mea Maxima Culpa.
What a sad story, though. Means he'll never get a shot at finding out that his ancestors shared a village with the Drumpf clan...
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"Trump wearing his new clothes would not be allowed on public television."
He'll demand to be shown in his glorious new raiments and everyone who complains they're not decent must be a moron who can be safely ignored.
Redde Caesari quae sunt Caesaris, after all...
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"If you’re going to lie, stop telling lies that can be easily debunked by a single Google search."
Even more so, it's not good to tell a lie which, if casually investigated, will ironically undermine your position by showing how corrupt border patrol agents ensure that criminals make it into the country where honest asylum seekers are stopped...
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What is the difference between immigrant and invader? When I emmigate somewhere, I do it with the prepurposed notion that, one, I must take enough money with me to sustain myself. And two, I have every intention of following the laws and registering for visas, etc..
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I never said I wanted Due Process removed so others couldn't have Due Process. I said that the jailers and jail system has removed it.
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I am wrong about illegal immigrants, but not those invading our country to game the system and they do.
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Its not called Due Process for them ad in a normal criminal procedure. It is a vetting process that determines their status and Identification.
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If through a vetting process, they are determined to be illegal aliens then, they are not being charged and do not warrant any Due Process. They just get a sandwich and a ride back to their country.
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Sorry dude. You got flagged. I don't know why though? I like it!
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I fought hard in respect to the Constitution. Am I not entitled to feel safe in my own country and from kooky politicians opening the border gates to every tomas dick and haraldo? That at some point will be detrimental to my country's own economy. Where will it end? People getting raped in broad daylight as in Europe? I have a right to not want this influx of whoever the hell they are.
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The purity of the DNA is the reason. It is completely possible to forecast what diseases different people will be proned to. For Law Enforcement, its about precrime. Which people will be prone to mental disturbances etc... As well as investigative evidence at the scenes of crimes.
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No, two diff trolls I guess.
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One seems to be more coherant than the other.
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They are granted Due Process, but only after being charged with a crime. They don't need it by merely being an illegal alien, only vetted, identified, given a sandwich and loaded on a bus back to whence they came.
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Please remember I am not on trial here!
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English is being spoken around the globe on a scale like never before has the world seen such an ability to communicate between all peoples.
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Again, no one said you were. Do you have anything of substance to add?
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Actually, “due process” is needed in order to determine any unlawful behavior, not just crimes. And last I checked, being an illegal alien is unlawful behavior. It is also needed in order to remove any person’s rights.
You need to prove that the person is indeed an illegal alien and that deportation is the appropriate remedy in order to deport someone for illegally entering or remaining in the country. It’s typically not a high bar, but it’s still necessary.
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First, that is an infringement of people’s rights against unreasonable search and seizure to do that sort of precrime thing.
Second, there is no evidence that people “prone to mental disturbances” are any more likely to commit crimes than anyone else.
Third, a lot of mental illnesses have no known genetic component, and even among those we do, we generally don’t know how to pinpoint those from genetic code alone. Same goes with a lot of physical ailments.
Fourth, that is a violation of people’s medical privacy.
Fifth, what in the world do you mean by the “purity of DNA”?
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Again, none of us are advocating for open borders. Nor are any of the politicians in America that I’m aware of. We’re just saying that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) also have rights. That is not at all advocating for open borders.
You also don’t have an inherent right to feel safe if that infringes on others’ rights. Even illegal aliens have a right to due process before being deported, as guaranteed by that Constitution you respect.
As for the stuff about the economy and people being raped, a) [citation needed], and b) the issue is what the law is, not what you think the law should be, and the law is that illegal aliens have rights, too. Any detriment their presence may have is immaterial to what rights they have.
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Due process isn’t just for those charged with committing a crime but those charged with any unlawful behavior. That includes illegal immigration or illegal residency. They are being charged with being in the country unlawfully, and that warrants due process. Also, collecting DNA from anyone requires some level of due process (like a warrant).
Again, “due process” must be given for any charge, criminal or not, or to deprive people of any rights.
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Due process is not exclusive to criminal procedures. It also applies to civil procedures and deportation.
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[citation needed]
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In your specific case, yes, and they did so unlawfully. That is not the case for all jailers or all jails.
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“Immigration” is a very broad term that says essentially nothing about intent or legality (aside from it being long-term rather than temporary like a vacation). It has no real connotation to it, good or bad.
“Invader” specifically means that the person in question has ill intent for the destination country that will likely involve unlawful behavior. It has a very negative connotation.
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Yet, we don't hear you braying about the hordes of "invaders" who deliberately overstay visas, work illegally and break laws while being of white European origin... Why is that?
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Sorry if I got you mixed up with another anonymous coward, it's hard to tell. But, your anecdote means nothing. Plus, if your reaction to you mistreatment is not to try and support due process for innocent people who risk the same fate, you may as well be supporting their mistreatment.
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"do not warrant any Due Process"
Your constitution and supreme court disagree. Why is it that the most nationalistic people always lack knowledge about what their nation's laws actually say?
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"Am I not entitled to feel safe in my own country"
In my experience, the reason why you feel unsafe probably has more to do with what Fox News are telling you to think that any reality on the streets where you live.
"That at some point will be detrimental to my country's own economy"
Actual studies show that immigration is a net positive for the country.
"People getting raped in broad daylight as in Europe?"
Yeah, people who get lied to all the time do think that's a common occurence.
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He presumably got flagged for the veiled racism based on xenophobic myths. If you like that, well that reflects on you as well.
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Yet, you'd be a fool to believe that it's the only language that matters.
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What color have I stated any of these people are? Knucklehead.
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You put the nail on the button, acting!
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Nope
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Trolling is not neccessarily being vicious. You people are every bit as much of a troll. You don't answer too many questions yourselves. You add a lot of tension here at techdirt. Maybe if you weren't so narscisistic, you might learn a few things.
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I am very much against the mistreatment of fellow Americans and any other person by these corrupt motherfuckers. I can guaranfuckintee that.
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I never stated any of what you are stating. I said the jailers destroyed my due process, but never said others didn't deserve it. I said aliens whose only crime is being in this country illegally and undocumented only get a free ride back to their country. If they have committed crimes while being here, then they are going up on charges then they have due process.
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Deportation is carried out through Vetting Process.
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Enemy combatants get vetted not due process, no lawyers no bond hearing.. no due process.
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illegal aliens who just show up here in our country just get vetted and sent home.
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I don't like how you reflect either. It smells like you kissing up to political correctness all the fucking time. It is sickening.
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Country not founded on immigration, but on deception invasion and mass murder.
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Its funny, but this a tragic tale that did indeed happen to an American citizen in the land of the free. And you people flag it away like you can't be bothered with it. That is fucked up.
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Due process is not what you get from ICE unless you are going before a judge for a crime with which have been charged beyond being an illegal alien. You get vetted, ID'd and now your DNA collected and free ride home.
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You took that excerpt out of context.
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You haven't directly stated that, but you do play the role of the guy paranoid about people invading the southern border without understanding context or meaning of the data. People like that are usually the ones who would happily attack a 3rd generation Latino immigrant based on how he looks before they'd even question the legality of a Swedish guy who's been living illegally for a decade.
I might be mistaken, but usually people who talk about "invaders'" are thinking about a particular skin tone.
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"I said aliens whose only crime is being in this country illegally and undocumented only get a free ride back to their country."
OK, so they deserve due process while that status is being determined and the appropriate punishment applied, right?
"If they have committed crimes while being here, then they are going up on charges then they have due process."
You have that backwards. Due process should apply before the charges are filed, as should the presumption of innocence before guilt is proven - something which you omit in your statement here.
Remember - it's not just criminals who deserve due process. It's also the innocent people who get caught up in this dragnet.
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So, when faced with opposition from other people, just claim everybody else is trolling? Far easier than examining your own words and behaviour, I suppose.
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...and people deserve due process and access to their rights while being vetted.
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...and they should have access to due process and other rights while the vetting process determines whether they are actually illegal aliens.
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Yes, me noticing that you're buying into racist propaganda is political correctness, you should be allowed to be a racist dickhead without opposition lest your precious feelings get hurt when you are required to treat others like human beings. Got it.
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"You get vetted"
Why do you believe that people should not have access to due process and other rights while they are being vetted? Do you believe that 100% of people going through that process are automatically guilty?
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Due process is judicial in nature. Unless they have comitted crimes that they have been charged with, there is no need for judicial review. ICE handles the 'vetting' and now soon to be included with that, DNA collection. Illegal aliens are transported back to their country or across the border from where they came. There is no judge involved and no Due Process.
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Immigration is immigration. People coming to America to immigrate means they come to stay. There are tests and a regiment of duties to do that. I don't make decisions of who are immigrants and who are illegal aliens. I trust that the government through their vetting process can determine who is who and who has come here to harm Americans. That's a big trust. But, when this government just opens the gates to undocumented refugees and they flood into sanctuary cities, I have a huge problem with that.
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You are playing the role of the extremist here, not I. What makes you think my concerns rise out of paranoia for one? And what makes you think I have one ounce of prejudice against anyone, third generation or whatever coming to us from any border? I have been friends with seasonal harvesters from Mexico coming to California for a long time. I built some houses with some in the eighties. Those guys I trusted with my life. Its really this government wanting to open the borders to allow a flood of 'refugees' that I oppose. Only because they were coming in and not being vetted or identified as to who they actually were. We knew nothing about them, only what they told us.
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I did not admit to being a troll. I am as much if not more a human being than anyone here. I have a beautifully rich past experience of life. I am well educated also. I am not trying to make enemies, but because I feel strongly about some things in life, you call me a troll. If that rocks your boat, oh well.
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You have a messed up idea of what due process actually means. You should read up on it at some point.
"ICE handles the 'vetting'"
So, you're saying that ICE is OK to violate the due process rights of everybody they come across up until they decide whether the people they've locked up deserve to be there, no legal representation required?
"Illegal aliens are transported back"
OK, so what about the rights of the people who AREN'T illegal aliens but still had their rights violated by your gestapo cosplayers? You don't see a slight problem there?
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"People coming to America to immigrate means they come to stay"
Then why do people coming on temporary work visas or study programs also have to go through immigration checks?
"I trust that the government through their vetting process"
Because we all know that the government never makes mistakes and never abuses power?
"But, when this government just opens the gates to undocumented refugees and they flood into sanctuary cities, I have a huge problem with that."
Good thing that isn't happening and nobody's advocating for open borders, then? Also, I'd read p on what a "sanctuary city" actually means. It's generally not what the xenophobic right wing echo chambers want you to this it means.
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"What makes you think my concerns rise out of paranoia for one?"
You keep talking about "invasion"?
"And what makes you think I have one ounce of prejudice against anyone, third generation or whatever coming to us from any border? "
I didn't say that you did, only that you repeatedly parrot the talking points of those who do.
"Those guys I trusted with my life"
So, what makes them different from the current people doing the same.
"Its really this government wanting to open the borders to allow a flood of 'refugees' that I oppose"
You're opposing a xenophobic fantasy, and you seem dead set on pretending that there's no such thing as a genuine refugee for some reason.
"We knew nothing about them, only what they told us."
So, when someone is fleeing rape and murder (often caused by the foreign policy of the US), which documentation do you believe they should make sure they have handy?
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You seem confused about “due process”. It actually varies quite a bit, and it can include purely administrative procedures, too. A judge is not required for something to be “due process”. Additionally, there is absolutely nothing in the law restricting due process to criminal cases. For one, civil lawsuits also involve both due process and (generally) judicial review.
And again, that doesn’t justify the mass collection of DNA from illegal aliens. That part does require additional due process beyond simply being an illegal alien, or at least that’s the argument here, which you haven’t actually refuted.
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I’m sick and tired of repeating this: due process is not restricted to criminal charges. It is also not restricted to judicial review (for example, there’s also mediation). Also, as I recall, accused aliens can appeal for judicial review of a deportation order, so there’s some more due process for ya.
Additionally, you keep slipping in that DNA collection as part and parcel of deporting illegal immigrants without any evidence or even explanation as to why that would be necessary or useful without something beyond being an illegal alien. The argument is that that is a separate issue that must go through it’s own due process, not automatically apply to every illegal alien. You have offered absolutely nothing to even attempt to refute that.
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You misunderstand. There are many tragic tales involving American citizens that happened in America. That is an unfortunate but very true fact. I do not intent to dismiss, minimize, or diminish the genuine harm done to this very unfortunate person.
However, that does not make their tale material to the discussion at hand. Nor does it mean that this is a widespread, systemic issue. This means that, as tragic as this tale is, it does not have any relevance to this discussion and changes none of our arguments. Many people will flag comments that are irrelevant to the conversation unless they are considered humorous and not abusive or spam. I personally did not flag any of these comments, but I understand the rationale for those who did. It’s essentially meant to streamline the comments section. They’re (probably) not saying they can’t be bothered with it, only that this isn’t the place to have that discussion.
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I fail to see how that context would meaningfully change SDM’s point: spending time in jail would not change their opinion on the relevant issues, so that point is immaterial.
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I never alleged you were vicious. But at any rate, I have answered questions on this site, and what you describe isn’t trolling.
I think you’re suffering from a severe case of projection.
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I’ve already addressed that “not admitting to being a troll” elsewhere. Suffice to say that you admitted to having motives that define a troll. You said that your posts are often motivated solely by the entertainment you get from the reactions from others who disagree with the points you bring up rather than to have a discussion. That is textbook trolling. Additionally, absolutely nothing says a troll can’t be a well-educated human with rich experiences and strong feelings about some things, so none of that refutes what I said.
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For the record, that doesn’t explain or justify mass collection of their DNA without due process regarding that.
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I never said otherwise. Due process doesn’t just mean “time in court before a judge”, though it should be noted that a target of such a deportation order is often appealable to a courtroom with a judge, so that’s part of the due process.
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I really don’t think you understand. That vetting process is part of due process. Additionally, deportation orders can be appealed to a US court with a judge.
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Then I’m not sure why a) you love it so much and b) are so against others doing the same.
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That is all determined in the vetting process. If they want to immigrate and meet requirements then they will be held oand go through immigration process. If they have committed crimes they will get their due process. If they are deemed enemy combatants they will be detained and held according to Geneva Convention. That is my understanding of what is happening.
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There is going to be a new US identification taking place and all US citizens are going to be forced into giving DNA. But first there will be a new ID Card given this year I believe it is "True ID." At some point following a global clamp down for some catastrophe or cataclysm, maybe the CoronaVirus, maybe some act of war or maybe they will flipflop the magnetosphere over the planet (again) only this time during a huge coronal mass ejection, the US is going to start implanting chips into the hand of every citizen. It is going to be the mark of the beast. Woe is that day people.
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They (tHEY) have already been letting undocumented refugees into our country.
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Which documentation should they have handy? Well, I guess we have solved the mystery of the DNA Collection program and why they are going to impliment it.
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No the point was taken out of contex, but to be clearer, I should have said, "you have not been in jail recently if you believe everyone gets due process..."
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Well, if there is one thing you should be able to discern by now is I am not seeking the easy way out on this article!
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lol projection. My cat sneezes all over me so I have been trying to teach him how to blow his nose into a tissue. Maybe I just got some catitude right now, maybe dejection!
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I admit sometimes I interject sauce to stir up techdirt's brew! But, damn, When Stone comes out and bites the hook, I get a good laugh sometime! Give an ol guy a break! Ive been thru shit you wouldn't believe. Im tired sometime I need a good laugh. But, I am dead serious on other matters. I know some things.
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I meant an exodus into our country, teacher..
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Easy Norack
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Not my intention but you have taken out of context my whole rant. I meant that the private jailing system has destroyed Due Process. I even told them I couldn't believe I was talking to Americans because of their cruelty and absolute disdain and indifference. It was fucking atrocious. In the revered words of Mike tyson, That's Ludimacrous!
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I could demand to see your certificate of Doctology for statements like that.
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Now I see, looking back, that you very wisely phased that as a question!
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I have never heard of an illegal alien caught while crossing the border into US as ever even requesting an attorney as if he planned on fighting ICE in court. They don't get attorneys, they get a sandwich.
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The vetting process is how you find out who is an alien without documentation. Everyone here says its due process, but I don't buy it. The agencies that catch these people crossing over the border into US sends them back with a sandwich.
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That ac is not me last four comments he is imposter ac!
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The imposter ac interupted this conversation. He is the TROLL. "GET HIM!"
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(Citation here)
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I didn't mind that Obama was first Black president, but he was lefthanded and I couldn't trust him for that. And then to learn he was an illegal alien. That was too much. The nwo has embarassed our Country to no end.
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Life on earth is very beautiful and very ugly at the same time. Its always hard to stay focused on the beauty, but in the face of all the ugliness, I try hard to fight to keep the beauty and sometimes I see my own people trying to destroy it.
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Now you’re just making shit up.
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If by “they” you mean sanctuary cities, then you clearly understand nothing about them.
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Again, much of what you just described is part of due process. I really don’t understand why this isn’t getting through to you.
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Well you’re right that you definitely should have been clearer if that was what you meant. In full context, no one would or did take it that way.
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Is that supposed to be a joke? If it is, then I don’t really get it at all.
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My point still stands.
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That’s not an exodus. Think of it this way: an export is to an exodus what an import is to an influx. You never say that you have an exodus into the country.
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You’re assuming that all illegal aliens get caught as they cross the border. That is not so. Additionally, those seeking refugee status may request an attorney. Your ignorance of their existence is not evidence of absence.
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Oh, I totally agree. However, if that is the only point to your tale, then it doesn’t really relate to the main discussion here.
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Whether you buy it or not doesn’t change the fact that it’s true. Have you tried looking up “due process”?
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Well, part of the “beauty” of our country’s foundation is immigration, and another is the guarantee of due process.
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"That is my understanding of what is happening."
Your understanding deliberately misses large groups of people - such as legal immigrants or US citizens picked up by ICE raid by mistake. It also misses many of the situations where due process is a basic right before being charged with a crime. Why is that?
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They (the US government) have been doing this for decades. Last time they put a blanket no on such things, they ended up sending boatloads of Jewish refugees back to Nazi Germany.
What a shame that's the thing you hope for.
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Unless I'm mistaken, the term "sanctuary city" simply means that the local government refuse to do the work of the federal government for them for free, and insist that undocumented immigrants have to be dealt with on a federal level.
The amount of stories the right-wing fiction writers have spun this in to is rather amazing, though it does help to identify the uninformed when they start parroting such things.
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Only if you're an idiot.
Why would collecting the DNA of people currently being detained by ICE help with identifying the history of new refugees who have never been near the country before?
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"The vetting process is how you find out who is an alien without documentation"
...and the people you are "vetting" have rights, and abiding by those rights is part of due process.
"The agencies that catch these people crossing over the border into US sends them back with a sandwich."
So, we're hallucinating those camps? OK...
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"And then to learn he was an illegal alien. That was too much."
I'd start switching to factual sources of information if I were you. They're no less scary sometimes, but at least you don't look like a gullible idiot when referring to them.
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I’m guessing you’re just trolling and not being serious.
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