Take Orlowski with a grain of salt. He's so anti-Google, his bias shows on anything he touches. It could be a story on Yahoo and he'll find a way to take an anti-Google stance.
I get tired of having to repost the same proof over and over again in every thread. IFPI numbers, year 2000 report, and then year 2010 report - and yes, it includes online sales.
Wow, are YOU a piece of work. You NEVER post the IFPI numbers, merely tell people that Google is your friend.
- In 1999, the global sales of illegal music cassettes declined to 1.4 billion units.
I don't think we even have to discuss cassettes since they have yet to kill the music industry.
- There were at least 60 million pirated CD-R units sold worldwide in 1999. Approximately 1 million seizures of CD-R discs were made.
Even with all of the seizures, this is a prime example of why litigation will not change people's minds on where to get music. In 1999, people were already moving away from the CD and onto digital sales. Don't believe me? Here's study after study saying the same thing over the years about file sharing
- In 1999, the total value of the pirate music market was estimated to be approximately $1 billion, which was less than in 1998. The decline was attributed to lower prices for illegal recordings and a decline in pirated sales in countries with poor economic conditions, such as Latin America, South East Asia and Eastern Europe.
Pay attention to the note in this:
The value of pirate sales is calculated at local pirate prices, which fell in many of the high piracy regions – particularly Asia, Latin America and eastern Europe. If legitimate prices were applied, the value would be much higher.
In other words, if you use American prices in Nigeria, then the "costs" of piracy are much higher. There's nothing in the report from 2000 that says how they calculated the number of legitimate sites versus illegal ones. At the time, they had MP3.com and Napster and the RIAA sued them into the ground courtesy of Doug Morrison's ineptitude as CEO. Hillary Rosen was told behind closed doors to get the music IP off of sites. And yet, the music sales continued to increase...
- South East Asia, the Ukraine, Eastern Europe, Brazil and Paraguay are currently a huge source of pirate CD production.
What the report doesn't talk about is how Brazil was on the "watch list" of the USTR for not enforcing copyright. Arguably, each of these countries have high piracy because no one is willing to serve them. Brazil's copyright laws have made the black market for games a lot more lucrative. People are not willing to spend $100 Real Dollars ($120 USD?) for a game. Hell, even when they have games at $60 USD, there's a shortage unless people pirate. The same goes with movies and music where the higher prices have lead to more piracy. Further, there are NO indications of competitive pricing points. How much is a person's time worth? How much is the product worth? Is the product priced too high? Nothing is indicated.
- There is a link between CD piracy and organized crime. This was evidenced by the arrests of a Russian crime ring by London police who charged them with credit card fraud and trafficking pirated CDs. According to the General Attorney of Naples, 100 Camorra gangs are involved in piracy in addition to drugs, firearms and extortion. In Dutch, police moved against a CD pirate ring, thought to be worth $50 million in US dollars, where firearms and large amounts of cash were also confiscated.
As it currently stands, there are no large scale terrorist or mafia organizations that engage in file sharing. The commodities of CD/DVD burners, large hard drives, and other cheap commodities makes copying worth a lot less than what criminals can get from venues such as drugs.
- Worldwide, there were a total of 34 million CD imports seized in the past two years. The IFPI did acknowledge, however, that several underground plants were forcibly closed in 1999.
And the money question: How much did it cost to destroy all of the product? How many plants were closed and how much did this affect the piracy game in the last 11 years?
The key point in the data is in these two paragraphs:
Trade revenues to record companies fell by 7.2% to US$17 billion, with the world's two biggest markets, the US and Japan, making up 80% of the decline. The worldwide fall in revenues outside the US and Japan in 2009 was 3.2%. Physical sales fell by 12.7% globally.
There are key areas of market growth, however. Digital music sales rose by 9.2% to US$4.3 billion, more than ten times the digital market value in 2004. Digital channels now account for 25.3% of all trade revenues to record companies. In the US, digital sales account for nearly half - 43% - of the recorded music market. More than 30 countries saw double-digit growth rates in digital sales, and 17 markets, including Argentina, Australia, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Singapore, Sweden and UK, saw digital sales grow by more than 40%.
Have you seen it yet? People stopped buying albums and bought individually in 2009. The unbundling of the CD has already been done and copyright won't bring that back. You can blame piracy all you want, but the CD is considered more as a commodity and not a necessity. What's incredibly odd and misleading is the fact that they've had more money in revenue since filesharing came around. The money just shifted to digital.
And from my reading of it, it was only focused on music sales
Sorry, but the 2000 report is too vague and the 2010 report is riddled with inaccuracies. The fact is, more musicians are out now, than before. They don't have the same measures of success as the RIAA was recording with their "make or break" system. You either made it to the top or you lay in a debt ridden heap by the recording labels that controlled everyone. As it stands, those two reports do nothing to help the case against piracy, merely show the weaknesses of those relying on the government with bad data.
Re: Re: Re: Re: It's easy if your "music" is close to jet-engine noise:
DH, let's try to be... Well I was going to say "reasonable" but I'm gonna go with "lenient".
Ootb does make good arguments, but they're so parse in his regular recourse that it's lost when he's off (or on) his rocker with his tangential points. I have to admit when he does get it right, it scares people. But when he gets it wrong, like up above... Whoo boy.
Of course Microsoft can't just come out and say "hey go pirate our stuff". They need to try and do that discreetly in an obvious way so that businesses get the message. And right now when Windows market share is dropping, Microsoft really need to get that message out in a hurry to drive up adoption in order to protect their desktop monopoly.
That has actually backfired in the past, such as Russia where the police were actually using the pirating to raid places they didn't like. The fact is, competition is eroding their monopoly and that can only be seen as a good thing.
You don't have a name to reference. And now, all you're doing is being misleading. Somehow, I'm supposed to pick you out of a hat and say that you, an AC with personal beef with me, can't have a logical discussion.
Pardon me while I laugh at this suggestion, because it makes no sense.
I've tried having logical conversations with Jay before.
Where? You hide behind the AC moniker and expect someone to just automatically remember you?
Your argument is non-sequitar and by trying to make this something to do with me, personally, you're admitting there's no merit to what you were proposing. Great if you want to do that but that means the point stands.
Which is Point X in this conversation. Everyone is on points A, B, and C.
IE, your argument about "power outtages result in the removal of protected speech" does not follow "the overbroad nature of SOPA will result in censorship of protected speech"
You seem to believe there's something wrong with the Pirate Party and their stated goals. Please explain why third parties in America are to be disparaged with ridicule. Should we have a problem with the Libertarian Party who states more personal economic responsibility? Should we worry about people with a goal of opening more economic freedom than what you seem to believe in?
Re: WELL, opponents of SOPA push the myth that "piracy" is GOOD!
I see all your points, guys, but when it gets down to WHO has the moral right to profit from the works, then I'm forced to go with the actual producers of it, not secondary grifters.
What absolutely astounds me is how incredibly pedantic this is. "Since I believe everyone must profit from their works, no one has a right to use works without permission".
So all of the rich innovations that the world has are lost on you.
Beethoven died a couple centuries ago, but by your logic, his music should not be played in concerts because no one has a "moral right" to profit from his work.
We have Mr. Brainwash who makes art in NY saying "anyone has the ability to create". His canvas? Sidewalls and abandoned buildings that he records for posterity.
And by your logic, no movie would have a remixed version to be shown because the copyright holders (who aren't even the directors, producers, or people on set most of the time) are the ones saying "no, you can't do this". You can't tell the distinction from the person that IS creating and the one holding the copyright. That's the problem
And I also don't see horrible problems with First Amendment in SOPA---
Try harder.
---because shutting down free speech is already the general trend.
And there's the moral dissonance.
Why aren't you similarly protesting the Patriot Act?
People are, just can't do anything with it at the current time. People are also protesting FISA and the government's abuse of those laws to seek out information. SOPA is just the industry's most blatant push ever.
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On the post: Aaron deOliveira's Favorite Techdirt Posts Of The Week
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On the post: Funniest/Most Insightful Comments Of The Week At Techdirt
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On the post: Aaron deOliveira's Favorite Techdirt Posts Of The Week
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wow, are YOU a piece of work. You NEVER post the IFPI numbers, merely tell people that Google is your friend.
Well, people refuting the data is YOUR friend:
AC debunks you
Karl debunks you
Dark Helmet debunks you
And Karl comes to the same conclusions I have
Your argument is old, over, and done. Get it out the oven and stop cooking it.
On the post: Aaron deOliveira's Favorite Techdirt Posts Of The Week
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
On the post: Aaron deOliveira's Favorite Techdirt Posts Of The Week
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Let's start with the year 2000 data with its talking points:
Link
I don't think we even have to discuss cassettes since they have yet to kill the music industry.
Even with all of the seizures, this is a prime example of why litigation will not change people's minds on where to get music. In 1999, people were already moving away from the CD and onto digital sales. Don't believe me? Here's study after study saying the same thing over the years about file sharing
Pay attention to the note in this:
The value of pirate sales is calculated at local pirate prices, which fell in many of the high piracy regions – particularly Asia, Latin America and eastern Europe. If legitimate prices were applied, the value would be much higher.
In other words, if you use American prices in Nigeria, then the "costs" of piracy are much higher. There's nothing in the report from 2000 that says how they calculated the number of legitimate sites versus illegal ones. At the time, they had MP3.com and Napster and the RIAA sued them into the ground courtesy of Doug Morrison's ineptitude as CEO. Hillary Rosen was told behind closed doors to get the music IP off of sites. And yet, the music sales continued to increase...
What the report doesn't talk about is how Brazil was on the "watch list" of the USTR for not enforcing copyright. Arguably, each of these countries have high piracy because no one is willing to serve them. Brazil's copyright laws have made the black market for games a lot more lucrative. People are not willing to spend $100 Real Dollars ($120 USD?) for a game. Hell, even when they have games at $60 USD, there's a shortage unless people pirate. The same goes with movies and music where the higher prices have lead to more piracy. Further, there are NO indications of competitive pricing points. How much is a person's time worth? How much is the product worth? Is the product priced too high? Nothing is indicated.
As it currently stands, there are no large scale terrorist or mafia organizations that engage in file sharing. The commodities of CD/DVD burners, large hard drives, and other cheap commodities makes copying worth a lot less than what criminals can get from venues such as drugs.
And the money question: How much did it cost to destroy all of the product? How many plants were closed and how much did this affect the piracy game in the last 11 years?
Well, lets dig in. Link
The key point in the data is in these two paragraphs:
Trade revenues to record companies fell by 7.2% to US$17 billion, with the world's two biggest markets, the US and Japan, making up 80% of the decline. The worldwide fall in revenues outside the US and Japan in 2009 was 3.2%. Physical sales fell by 12.7% globally.
There are key areas of market growth, however. Digital music sales rose by 9.2% to US$4.3 billion, more than ten times the digital market value in 2004. Digital channels now account for 25.3% of all trade revenues to record companies. In the US, digital sales account for nearly half - 43% - of the recorded music market. More than 30 countries saw double-digit growth rates in digital sales, and 17 markets, including Argentina, Australia, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Singapore, Sweden and UK, saw digital sales grow by more than 40%.
Have you seen it yet? People stopped buying albums and bought individually in 2009. The unbundling of the CD has already been done and copyright won't bring that back. You can blame piracy all you want, but the CD is considered more as a commodity and not a necessity. What's incredibly odd and misleading is the fact that they've had more money in revenue since filesharing came around. The money just shifted to digital.
And from my reading of it, it was only focused on music sales
Sorry, but the 2000 report is too vague and the 2010 report is riddled with inaccuracies. The fact is, more musicians are out now, than before. They don't have the same measures of success as the RIAA was recording with their "make or break" system. You either made it to the top or you lay in a debt ridden heap by the recording labels that controlled everyone. As it stands, those two reports do nothing to help the case against piracy, merely show the weaknesses of those relying on the government with bad data.
On the post: Washington Post Column Incredulous That Congress Is Considering Censoring The Internet
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Actually... I would beg to differ...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It's easy if your "music" is close to jet-engine noise:
Ootb does make good arguments, but they're so parse in his regular recourse that it's lost when he's off (or on) his rocker with his tangential points. I have to admit when he does get it right, it scares people. But when he gets it wrong, like up above... Whoo boy.
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Re: Re: SOPA/PIPA is tearing families apart
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Re: The Answer Is In The Opening Paragraph.
That has actually backfired in the past, such as Russia where the police were actually using the pirating to raid places they didn't like. The fact is, competition is eroding their monopoly and that can only be seen as a good thing.
On the post: Swedish Study Shows File Sharing And Music Buying Go Hand-In-Hand
Research
It seems you need research in this area. Allow me to help you here:
Gaming - Valve - Piracy is a service issue
Notch - Piracy is not theft
Humble Indie Bundle - Still going strong even with torrents and downloads by illegitimate sites
Gog - Get rid of DRM, make customers happy
OC Remix - Giving away free entertainment for greater rewards
Movies - Michael D Smith - Lack of legal channels leads to piracy. Also, Notice the title of his paper
Crowdfunding is working for movies
Research - Piracy increases quality of content
The Copyright Wars - Seeing how increased litigation is affecting everyday American's lives and causing hyper awareness of the problem of copyright.
If you want, I could go further. But it seems to me that you may need to read a little bit more on piracy and copyright law.
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She died from her injuries. :(
On the post: Washington Post Column Incredulous That Congress Is Considering Censoring The Internet
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You don't have a name to reference. And now, all you're doing is being misleading. Somehow, I'm supposed to pick you out of a hat and say that you, an AC with personal beef with me, can't have a logical discussion.
Pardon me while I laugh at this suggestion, because it makes no sense.
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On the post: Washington Post Column Incredulous That Congress Is Considering Censoring The Internet
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Where? You hide behind the AC moniker and expect someone to just automatically remember you?
Your argument is non-sequitar and by trying to make this something to do with me, personally, you're admitting there's no merit to what you were proposing. Great if you want to do that but that means the point stands.
On the post: Washington Post Column Incredulous That Congress Is Considering Censoring The Internet
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And judging from the fact that if the government trying to shut down free speech leads to a lot of questions of censorship, I would say your argument needs work.
But hey, don't let me pointing out the flaws of your argument ruin your day.
On the post: Washington Post Column Incredulous That Congress Is Considering Censoring The Internet
Re: Re: Re:
IE, your argument about "power outtages result in the removal of protected speech" does not follow "the overbroad nature of SOPA will result in censorship of protected speech"
On the post: SOPA Becoming An Election Issue: Challengers Highlighting Reps Who Want To Censor The Internet
Re:
On the post: SOPA Becoming An Election Issue: Challengers Highlighting Reps Who Want To Censor The Internet
Re: WELL, opponents of SOPA push the myth that "piracy" is GOOD!
What absolutely astounds me is how incredibly pedantic this is. "Since I believe everyone must profit from their works, no one has a right to use works without permission".
So all of the rich innovations that the world has are lost on you.
Beethoven died a couple centuries ago, but by your logic, his music should not be played in concerts because no one has a "moral right" to profit from his work.
We have Mr. Brainwash who makes art in NY saying "anyone has the ability to create". His canvas? Sidewalls and abandoned buildings that he records for posterity.
And by your logic, no movie would have a remixed version to be shown because the copyright holders (who aren't even the directors, producers, or people on set most of the time) are the ones saying "no, you can't do this". You can't tell the distinction from the person that IS creating and the one holding the copyright. That's the problem
And I also don't see horrible problems with First Amendment in SOPA---
Try harder.
---because shutting down free speech is already the general trend.
And there's the moral dissonance.
Why aren't you similarly protesting the Patriot Act?
People are, just can't do anything with it at the current time. People are also protesting FISA and the government's abuse of those laws to seek out information. SOPA is just the industry's most blatant push ever.
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