Re: Re: Re: Eye for an eye isn’t going to get us what we want.
Your point is valid. It may effect change that wouldn't be brought otherwise. But I think the mixture of violent/peaceful is showing police for what they are.
Re: Eye for an eye isn’t going to get us what we want.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I do want to argue about "inducing violence." At this point, peaceful protests are being greeted by excessive force. So, assuming peace will be met with peace is getting no one anywhere.
The heat is slowly dying down, but the calls for military intervention are increasing. Police officers are treating peaceful protesters just like they'd treat looters.
Reform efforts are important. But fighting the system solely by engaging with civic leaders on their own terms isn't going to move the dial far enough or fast enough. My argument is that years of doing stuff the way government officials would prefer us to do them hasn't brought us very far.
I'm sorry, but you cannot order riots à la carte. You want the parts of riots you like (damaging city/police property), you have to accept the parts that you don't (destruction of private property, assault and injury of innocent people).
You have to own it all. At least be honest about the fact that your desire for police reform outweighs your respect for other people's property rights and safety.
I own it all. I want a la carte riots. Maybe I can't have them but I can state what I want. There will be collateral damage. But that financial blood is still on the government's hands. Ample opportunities have been given for governments to effect meaningful changes in their police departments. In almost every case, these opportunities have been ignored. If businesses want to pin the blame on anyone, they can look to their civic leaders and PDS who failed to protect them from society and the actions of police officers.
I'm not going to sugarcoat this shit with a bunch of hedging. And I'm not going to pretend targeting cops with protests/riots won't harm people not directly involved. But the blame still rests on the officers and those that continually protect them, not the people who are sick of a status quo that has failed to respect them or their lives.
Sorry you got the unbuttered side. The good news is the other side still has butter. So, that's kind of on you. If you want toast buttered on both sides, I can direct you to any number of news outlets who feel the public is best served by generous toppings of butter on both sides of every piece of toast, even if it means being part of the problem.
This is just slander. The reason why everything was okay was because your mom played it cool. She didn't become belligerent. She didn't hop in her car and get into a high speed chase. She didn't resist arrest and go limp when a cop tried to put her into the back seat of a squad car. If you dont get into a confrontation, then the chances of harm or death become astronomically small.
First, this isn't slander. I mean, have you read any coverage of defamation suits here?
Second: George Floyd didn't resist. Even if you argue (wrongly) that he did, he was still held down by the officer's knee on his neck for three minutes after another officer couldn't detect a pulse. Floyd was as compliant as any human could be for almost three minutes and the application of force never changed.
Venting anger by burning police property can be cathartic, but is this something you would proudly tell your grandchildren? A better question is: What would Jesus do? What would be the way to effect change by showing love to our neighbor?
Yes. I mean as opposed to "I stood idly by while police killed thousands of Americans and were greeted with calls for fascist policies by political leaders."
WWJD? God only knows. Jesus showed love but the New Testament ends with the world being destroyed. So, extending Christ's love may result in minor mitigation, but in the end, the dude running the entire show decides only the people that voted for him are worth saving. Not sure that's the narrative we want to pursue, no matter what our religious beliefs.
love too hear from citizens who think any crime is punishable by death
looking at the raw numbers doesn't flatter the cops as much as you think it does. Sure there are good cops. But there a lot of marginal cops protecting worse cops. And on top of everything there are police unions and qualified immunity protecting the worst of the worst while people like you quote only half of the "bad apples" adage in an attempt to justify the inaction of thousands of cops.
You expect individual gun owners to go out and point guns at cops in large groups wearing riot gear? Are you daft? Guns are not the answer to governmental injustice. They are the answer to violent governmental oppression on a large scale, such as a declaration of martial law.
Yes. Be consistent.
No. Not daft, just a stickler.
Martial law is just around the corner. Better get some practice in.
If this delusion is working for you, stay with it. Nothing backs up your assertions, not even anecdotally. It's not like we need anyone advocating for the rights of armed white men. They've pretty much got all the government deference in the world already locked down.
Maybe you with your keen insight can explain why entities like the NRA have nothing to say about the Second Amendment rights of gun-owning blacks who have been killed by police officers. I look forward to your response which will certainly cover the expansive void left behind by conservative-leaning lobbyists who only care about rights when they affect white voters.
quoting American Pie is an undeniable indication you've lost the argument.
McLean's Law (as adopted by Tim Cushing as of first hearing this atrocious song)
but beyond that, burn it all. I will dance in the flames that consume me as long as it leads to something better for those around me and future generations. And I will do so as long as it teaches cops there are things worth fearing far beyond the imaginary fears they offer up as sworn testimony after deleting another black life from existence.
I don't want businesses destroyed. And there is nothing in this post that suggests that. Read better and read every word. Burn the cop things down. Destroy their totems. Make them respect the people they're sworn to serve.
Re: How about using a different approach to bring about change?
I understand your point but my post addresses most of your arguments. We've tried both -- peaceful protests and civil uprisings. Neither has moved the dial much. Why should we insist on peaceful when this nation's history says the trashing of government property tends to have more of an effect?
I don't want cities to burn and businesses to be looted. But I can no longer argue against the destruction of the tools of oppression. Even if they're mostly symbolic -- American-made cars retrofitted for maximum law enforcement opportunism -- the destruction of symbols carries a message hanging back and allowing the government to maintain the upper hand doesn't: the power is still the people's.
Re: How about using a different approach to bring about change?
I started to respond to this comment -- which is very well-made (thank you) -- but it ended up being a post for this site.
Suffice to say, I think I amply demonstrated why peaceful protests haven't resulted in systemic changes. It's time to try something different. This may not work either, but we all should know by now the government vastly prefers peaceful protesters to those who righteously set fire to the weapons of societal destruction.
That being said, I do appreciate your comment and I do welcome critics of my post. There is no way it would not provoke criticism but that's how we roll at Techdirt. We take a firm stand on issues. We don't both-sides the shit out of things and we keep hedging to a minimum. Strong reactions are far preferable to ho-hum "well, I guess" responses, even if the responses vehemently argue against the article and its writer.
If there's any avocation for violence here, it's only to match one-tenth of what the government is able to inflict on the populace. If the problem is cops, target cop things. They've targeted citizens with no repercussions for years. Let them spend a little time seeing what it's like on the other end. They probably won't develop any empathy. But maybe, with a little time, they'll see what it's like to live on the other end of their immense power.
Re: Hennepin Co Prosecutor taken off case by Governor
I don't want to remove everyone until it's just the guys with scales and ducks but prosecutors are there to prosecute crime. When the perps a cop, it seems their heart just isn't in it, no matter who's appointed.
There have been some really good responses by law enforcement officers and agencies. But let's not forget that it never needed to get to the point where these officers/agencies would stand out as anomalies. Americans want the anomalies to be the new normal. The only thing holding cops back are the cops themselves.
On the post: Federal Case Shows Cops Still Have Plenty Of Options When Dealing With Device Encryption
Re:
ah, it's my favorite commenter, galaxy brain
On the post: Anti-SLAPP Law Turns Bogus Defamation Lawsuit Into A $26,500 Legal Bill For The Plaintiff
Re:
fixed that and the borked embed. thanks!
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re: Re: Re: Eye for an eye isn’t going to get us what we want.
Your point is valid. It may effect change that wouldn't be brought otherwise. But I think the mixture of violent/peaceful is showing police for what they are.
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re: Eye for an eye isn’t going to get us what we want.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I do want to argue about "inducing violence." At this point, peaceful protests are being greeted by excessive force. So, assuming peace will be met with peace is getting no one anywhere.
The heat is slowly dying down, but the calls for military intervention are increasing. Police officers are treating peaceful protesters just like they'd treat looters.
Reform efforts are important. But fighting the system solely by engaging with civic leaders on their own terms isn't going to move the dial far enough or fast enough. My argument is that years of doing stuff the way government officials would prefer us to do them hasn't brought us very far.
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re:
I own it all. I want a la carte riots. Maybe I can't have them but I can state what I want. There will be collateral damage. But that financial blood is still on the government's hands. Ample opportunities have been given for governments to effect meaningful changes in their police departments. In almost every case, these opportunities have been ignored. If businesses want to pin the blame on anyone, they can look to their civic leaders and PDS who failed to protect them from society and the actions of police officers.
I'm not going to sugarcoat this shit with a bunch of hedging. And I'm not going to pretend targeting cops with protests/riots won't harm people not directly involved. But the blame still rests on the officers and those that continually protect them, not the people who are sick of a status quo that has failed to respect them or their lives.
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re: Re: Re: Echo Chamber
Sorry you got the unbuttered side. The good news is the other side still has butter. So, that's kind of on you. If you want toast buttered on both sides, I can direct you to any number of news outlets who feel the public is best served by generous toppings of butter on both sides of every piece of toast, even if it means being part of the problem.
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re: Re: First and foremost... fuck off...
First, this isn't slander. I mean, have you read any coverage of defamation suits here?
Second: George Floyd didn't resist. Even if you argue (wrongly) that he did, he was still held down by the officer's knee on his neck for three minutes after another officer couldn't detect a pulse. Floyd was as compliant as any human could be for almost three minutes and the application of force never changed.
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re:
Yes. I mean as opposed to "I stood idly by while police killed thousands of Americans and were greeted with calls for fascist policies by political leaders."
WWJD? God only knows. Jesus showed love but the New Testament ends with the world being destroyed. So, extending Christ's love may result in minor mitigation, but in the end, the dude running the entire show decides only the people that voted for him are worth saving. Not sure that's the narrative we want to pursue, no matter what our religious beliefs.
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re:
love too hear from citizens who think any crime is punishable by death
looking at the raw numbers doesn't flatter the cops as much as you think it does. Sure there are good cops. But there a lot of marginal cops protecting worse cops. And on top of everything there are police unions and qualified immunity protecting the worst of the worst while people like you quote only half of the "bad apples" adage in an attempt to justify the inaction of thousands of cops.
On the post: Let's Stop Pretending Peaceful Demonstrations Will Fix The System. 'Peace Officers' Don't Give A Shit About Peace.
Re:
Yes. Be consistent.
No. Not daft, just a stickler.
Martial law is just around the corner. Better get some practice in.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: Hypocrisy and bias
If this delusion is working for you, stay with it. Nothing backs up your assertions, not even anecdotally. It's not like we need anyone advocating for the rights of armed white men. They've pretty much got all the government deference in the world already locked down.
Maybe you with your keen insight can explain why entities like the NRA have nothing to say about the Second Amendment rights of gun-owning blacks who have been killed by police officers. I look forward to your response which will certainly cover the expansive void left behind by conservative-leaning lobbyists who only care about rights when they affect white voters.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: You world
quoting American Pie is an undeniable indication you've lost the argument.
but beyond that, burn it all. I will dance in the flames that consume me as long as it leads to something better for those around me and future generations. And I will do so as long as it teaches cops there are things worth fearing far beyond the imaginary fears they offer up as sworn testimony after deleting another black life from existence.
I don't want businesses destroyed. And there is nothing in this post that suggests that. Read better and read every word. Burn the cop things down. Destroy their totems. Make them respect the people they're sworn to serve.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: You are all under arrest
i will shut down my telegraph forthwith
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: How about using a different approach to bring about change?
I understand your point but my post addresses most of your arguments. We've tried both -- peaceful protests and civil uprisings. Neither has moved the dial much. Why should we insist on peaceful when this nation's history says the trashing of government property tends to have more of an effect?
I don't want cities to burn and businesses to be looted. But I can no longer argue against the destruction of the tools of oppression. Even if they're mostly symbolic -- American-made cars retrofitted for maximum law enforcement opportunism -- the destruction of symbols carries a message hanging back and allowing the government to maintain the upper hand doesn't: the power is still the people's.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: The British Empire: The Original Bad Cop
this is a goddamn good comment. thank you.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: How about using a different approach to bring about change?
I started to respond to this comment -- which is very well-made (thank you) -- but it ended up being a post for this site.
Suffice to say, I think I amply demonstrated why peaceful protests haven't resulted in systemic changes. It's time to try something different. This may not work either, but we all should know by now the government vastly prefers peaceful protesters to those who righteously set fire to the weapons of societal destruction.
That being said, I do appreciate your comment and I do welcome critics of my post. There is no way it would not provoke criticism but that's how we roll at Techdirt. We take a firm stand on issues. We don't both-sides the shit out of things and we keep hedging to a minimum. Strong reactions are far preferable to ho-hum "well, I guess" responses, even if the responses vehemently argue against the article and its writer.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: Why the edit, Tim?
Not sure what version you're reading, but the link is still there and live in the article.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
If there's any avocation for violence here, it's only to match one-tenth of what the government is able to inflict on the populace. If the problem is cops, target cop things. They've targeted citizens with no repercussions for years. Let them spend a little time seeing what it's like on the other end. They probably won't develop any empathy. But maybe, with a little time, they'll see what it's like to live on the other end of their immense power.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: Hennepin Co Prosecutor taken off case by Governor
I don't want to remove everyone until it's just the guys with scales and ducks but prosecutors are there to prosecute crime. When the perps a cop, it seems their heart just isn't in it, no matter who's appointed.
On the post: Let. The Motherfucker. Burn.
Re: Swallowing pride can go a long way in healing
There have been some really good responses by law enforcement officers and agencies. But let's not forget that it never needed to get to the point where these officers/agencies would stand out as anomalies. Americans want the anomalies to be the new normal. The only thing holding cops back are the cops themselves.
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