But the even bigger problem is that the protection is conditioned on platforms acting against speakers and speech based only on allegations of infringement, even though those allegations may be unfounded
That's the heart of the issue.The compromise was always that platforms weren't held responsible for copyright infringement IF they agreed to comply with take down notices. This was how they avoided being sued like a newspaper would be sued for publishing content they had no right to publish. Of course platforms are free to sue for malicious takedown notices. Is it a perfect system, no. But expecting platforms to only takedown material once it has gone through court after months/years AND not be liable for ignoring a simple takedown notice is just not going to happen. It would make copyright to costly to enforce and meaningless.
Never heard that quote. But yeah I would never say that it was fine for someone to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, if the person they believed there was not a fire. I wouldn't say that was a freedom of speech argument, and we should all have the right to cause panic and piss people off in the name of "freedom of speech. Should the person shouting that be charged with something if they knowingly knew there was no fire, caused a panic and some guy got crushed and died in the panic? I don't know. For me it's the same level of stupidity as someone driving drunk a short distance on a quiet road, and happens to kill someone who runs across the road.
I'm not saying the artist would have been happy and given permission. I felt covered this point. An artist is concerned with their brand. If an advert uses their music and if it is used for an advert that is in opposition to their fanbase, then they likely lose their audience, thus money and maybe even their career. Meaning they are less likely to create more material, as they will probably have to get a regular 9 to 5 job, giving no time to be creative. Particulary if the advert is big. Then others won't want to pay to use their music, increasing the issue. That's exactly you don't see adverts for diarrhea using a mainstream band. And yes many people despise Trump and his politics. So that is totally in line with the "progress of science and useful arts". A negative use of material can decrease the "progress of science of uesful arts".
Secondly he could have paid a willing artist or also commissioned a new piece of music from a right wing artist.
This is just a textbook case of why copyright is needed, you may not specifically have "moral rights" in US copyright stated. But it's a given, as the artist has control of their work to ensure they can profit from it, create more, and just as important not have someone use their work in a way which negatively affects their career and ability to create and profit from future work.
Well yes if you pay for the copyright to use material then you are helping progress "science and useful arts". I guess the idea is you are helping the artist earn a living. Obviously the artist may not want to give you permission as he may believe that your use of the material may damage his brand - maybe even put you out of business if his market dislikes the association. What the Trump campaign should have done is asked permission from an artist willing to give it, or simply paid a musician to create a unique piece of music for his campaign. So yes this case is exactly aligned to your "progress of science and useful arts" quote. As noted this is a textbook example of why copyright is needed.
The fact is they are suing for copyright enfringement, whether that is Eddy Grant or whether the label is doing it I wouldn't know. Only the copyright holder can do this, so I can only assume the copyright holder is not happy. It doesn't seem to be a case where the label has granted permission, and the singer disagrees. As I've already noted ASCAP is not relevant. The link you cite shows this, it states:
"IF A CAMPAIGN WANTS TO USE A SONG IN A CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL, WHAT PERMISSIONS DOES IT NEED?
This kind of use may involve rights such as synchronization of music with video and the possible use of the master sound recording. The campaign will need to contact the song’s publisher and possibly the artist’s record label to negotiate the appropriate licenses with them. And remember, campaign videos containing music that are posted on the internet also require these licenses. Once the commercial has been produced, the TV and radio stations, and any websites that transmit the commercial, must have a public performance license"
I think you are confusing public events with advertisements. They are different beasts. If ASCAP was used as widely as that, copyright would be meaningless. They could possibly make that claim if they were playing the song at a campaign rally, but they can't if they make a video advert. They would need to get permission.
But yes you are right, there are these annoying stories that crop up when a singer complains about their song they signed away rights for. In reality these are usually (although not always) communication difficulties between the label and the singer. Labels will often do what the singer wants, and it is often in their interest to protect their brand, and as noted if the politics do not fit the brand, then the label will say no. That's why you don't see adverts on TV for laxatives using Madonnas music. Most artists and their labels have a similar idea about what is in their interest.
Basically there is no basis for ASCAP in this case, they needed to get permission and they didn't. The copyright holder is taking action. So if that is not Grant himself, then there doesn't seem to be disagreement.
Sure it's a given you are allowed to sign away your copyright or make it open you personally lose your rights to decline permission. That's not really the issue at hand. It's up to you to decide if you want to sign away your rights, and even if you do you can negotiate terms. I saw nothing in the article to suggest that was the case though.
As for ASCAP - as far as I'm aware that wouldn't be relevant in this case. ASCAP is for the likes of public performances, think supermarkets, conference centres, radio stations playing music etc. It is not for adverts, where you would need specific permission. This makes sense as labels or artists want to control their brand. They'll likely lose revenue if their artist is associated with politics or say a brand of toilet roll that may be unappealing to their target audience. Indeed even with live events, copyright holders can exclude themselves from certain politics. But again this wasn't a live political rally, it was an advert - different rules.
I was merely noting that although many people (including myself) may not like the concept of copyright. This article shows exactly why it is a necessary evil. I wouldn't want my voice used to promote politics I was against both morally and because of the negative damage it may do to my brand. Political campaigns can licence music or even commission it, which is actually a major reason for copyright in the first place.
Unless he's made his work open, or detailed how his work can be used. The copyright holder has the right to refuse permission to anyone, he does not need to give a reason why. Whether or not "moral rights" are explicitly stated, isn't really relevant. It is universally accepted that the point of copyright is for the owner to have control of how it is used.
Those sort of arrangements rarely if ever cover videos or political advertisements. It would be a stretch to call it parody/satire - it was a political propaganda campaign video.
That article has literally no relevance to the point, it doesn't even attempt to talk about instances where copyright may be valuable. No artist is going to want their voice used to promote politics they disagree with. That is exactly why we have copyright. Besides, they could have easily found another artist and paid them to use their music with their consent.
Hmm, it would be fairly unusual for a major artist to have it setup in such a way that they do not have the option to decline requests. Artists are usually concerned about their brand, and they will not want their voice to be used for political propaganda that they are against. As noted that is the whole point of copyright, to give control on how their work is used. Even if you dislike the concept of copyright, I struggle to see how anyone can really argue against the need for it in these sort of cases. Even if you don't like the morality aspect, there is a likely a financial impact on the artist if their voice is associated with politics which differs to their fans
This is a textbook example of why copyright is needed. Few artists would wish their work be used to promote politics they are against. This is exactly what copyright was designed for, to give control to the copyright holder
Think of it like a weather forecast - you don't call it misinformation because the weatherman says there is 55% chance it will rain in particular city it it turns out to be a dry day. I think you're over thinking this, polls are polls - they are based on the data that are available, and there is always an error of margin. That will be published too, even if media outlets choose not to publicise it. As long as there hasn't been a deliberate attempt to try and alter the result from what the data dictates, or ignore data just because you don't like what it says, you can't call it misinformation.
That only applies to the use of music in the actual campaign marches. The issue at hand is a video, where they use the music for a Trump propaganda video. Your link notes that permission is needed in these circumstances, just as anyone producing a commercial would need to gain permission. They did not get permission.
I've not seen the video, but this is a description of what it apparently contained:
The video Trump retweeted earlier featured a cover of “In The End” that begins quietly and ominously, apparently implying the Democrats are about to ring in the apocalypse. Then the song revs up with images of the military, cops busting into doors, MAGA fans and the president at the Lincoln Memorial. It was apparently made by Trump supporters and posted on Twitter, The New York Post reported.
“Time is a valuable thing. Watch it fly by as the pendulum swings. Watch it count down to the end of the day,” warn the lyrics of “In the End.” “The clock ticks life away.”
For me it's a textbook example of why copyright is needed. I wouldn't want my work or indeed my voice to be used for political propaganda that I was against, I struggle to believe anyone would. At the end if the day that is exactly why we need copyright.
It's considered perjury to claim copyright for something you don't have the rights for. So yes, there potentially there are real penalties. I'd have thought if there were a real issue Twitter or some other body would haul the false claims through the court to create an example. Your point about own musicians given strikes for their own content. It's likely they signed away their copyright.
Mind you, they also seem incapable of picking a "patriotic" song that isn't a scathing indictment of America when you actually listen to the lyrics (Born In The USA, Fortunate Son, etc).
Haha I agree to that. I don't know if their copyright claim is valid, or indeed if they have transferred it elsewhere. Assuming it is valid, it actually shows why copyright is actually needed. No way would I be happy for my music to be used to support a political campaign against my will. That is the whole point of copyright, to give some control of how their work is used. Copyright isn't the problem here, the problem is using material for which permission hasn't been sought.
They don't want their music to be associated with Trump, and I can understand that. Assuming it was a valid copyright claim, then that let's exactly what copyright is designed for. So no, it's not a problem with copyright at all. The Trump campaign is free to use music for which they have copyright permission to use.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Consequences should go both ways
Not at all, I understand their business model, they don't want to do editorial role. They want to limit their legal responsibility but keep all the advertising revenue. Takedown requests were a compromise to avoid having to go through onerous moderation, and avoid liability. If you don't have takedowns, then people will call for those who are hosting the content to be liable for copyright infringements. I get that many on this site don't like copyright, but it's not magically going to go away for a variety of reasons.
At the moment the proper channels are to ask for consent from a complainant. If consent is not given, that limits the ability in some cases to investigate the case, and likely the defendants right of a fair trial. You need evidence to take forward a case. Phone data may not be relevant, it depends on the case. Of course the phone could have information which helps the complainant prove her case too. Politically the police cannot be seen as getting warrants and demanding that a complainants phone is examined, that would be seen as even worst than the current situation. It is likely to put off people reporting incidents if they will be forced against there will to hand over their phone.
They are hosting the content, that makes them a key player, in my opinion. It's like saying an editor for a paper who decides to print absolutely any article anyone sends is a third party, because they choose not to moderate - or are reactive. But papers don't get away with that. I know they want to be seen as somehow as incidental, their business model depends on it. A third party in this situation could be an advitisor or someone very incidental.
I'm not sure I'd call youtube a "Third party". They host the content, so they have some level of responsibility to act on removing material that shouldn't legally be there. At least when they are made aware. I know they want to shirk that responsibility as it doesn't fit their business model.
On the post: Reform The DMCA? OK, But Only If It's Done Really, Really Carefully
Compromise
That's the heart of the issue.The compromise was always that platforms weren't held responsible for copyright infringement IF they agreed to comply with take down notices. This was how they avoided being sued like a newspaper would be sued for publishing content they had no right to publish. Of course platforms are free to sue for malicious takedown notices. Is it a perfect system, no. But expecting platforms to only takedown material once it has gone through court after months/years AND not be liable for ignoring a simple takedown notice is just not going to happen. It would make copyright to costly to enforce and meaningless.
On the post: New Gear On Threadless: Fire In A Crowded Theatre
Never heard that quote
Never heard that quote. But yeah I would never say that it was fine for someone to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre, if the person they believed there was not a fire. I wouldn't say that was a freedom of speech argument, and we should all have the right to cause panic and piss people off in the name of "freedom of speech. Should the person shouting that be charged with something if they knowingly knew there was no fire, caused a panic and some guy got crushed and died in the panic? I don't know. For me it's the same level of stupidity as someone driving drunk a short distance on a quiet road, and happens to kill someone who runs across the road.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, not really
I'm not saying the artist would have been happy and given permission. I felt covered this point. An artist is concerned with their brand. If an advert uses their music and if it is used for an advert that is in opposition to their fanbase, then they likely lose their audience, thus money and maybe even their career. Meaning they are less likely to create more material, as they will probably have to get a regular 9 to 5 job, giving no time to be creative. Particulary if the advert is big. Then others won't want to pay to use their music, increasing the issue. That's exactly you don't see adverts for diarrhea using a mainstream band. And yes many people despise Trump and his politics. So that is totally in line with the "progress of science and useful arts". A negative use of material can decrease the "progress of science of uesful arts".
Secondly he could have paid a willing artist or also commissioned a new piece of music from a right wing artist.
This is just a textbook case of why copyright is needed, you may not specifically have "moral rights" in US copyright stated. But it's a given, as the artist has control of their work to ensure they can profit from it, create more, and just as important not have someone use their work in a way which negatively affects their career and ability to create and profit from future work.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, not really
Well yes if you pay for the copyright to use material then you are helping progress "science and useful arts". I guess the idea is you are helping the artist earn a living. Obviously the artist may not want to give you permission as he may believe that your use of the material may damage his brand - maybe even put you out of business if his market dislikes the association. What the Trump campaign should have done is asked permission from an artist willing to give it, or simply paid a musician to create a unique piece of music for his campaign. So yes this case is exactly aligned to your "progress of science and useful arts" quote. As noted this is a textbook example of why copyright is needed.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, not really
The fact is they are suing for copyright enfringement, whether that is Eddy Grant or whether the label is doing it I wouldn't know. Only the copyright holder can do this, so I can only assume the copyright holder is not happy. It doesn't seem to be a case where the label has granted permission, and the singer disagrees. As I've already noted ASCAP is not relevant. The link you cite shows this, it states:
"IF A CAMPAIGN WANTS TO USE A SONG IN A CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL, WHAT PERMISSIONS DOES IT NEED?
This kind of use may involve rights such as synchronization of music with video and the possible use of the master sound recording. The campaign will need to contact the song’s publisher and possibly the artist’s record label to negotiate the appropriate licenses with them. And remember, campaign videos containing music that are posted on the internet also require these licenses. Once the commercial has been produced, the TV and radio stations, and any websites that transmit the commercial, must have a public performance license"
I think you are confusing public events with advertisements. They are different beasts. If ASCAP was used as widely as that, copyright would be meaningless. They could possibly make that claim if they were playing the song at a campaign rally, but they can't if they make a video advert. They would need to get permission.
But yes you are right, there are these annoying stories that crop up when a singer complains about their song they signed away rights for. In reality these are usually (although not always) communication difficulties between the label and the singer. Labels will often do what the singer wants, and it is often in their interest to protect their brand, and as noted if the politics do not fit the brand, then the label will say no. That's why you don't see adverts on TV for laxatives using Madonnas music. Most artists and their labels have a similar idea about what is in their interest.
Basically there is no basis for ASCAP in this case, they needed to get permission and they didn't. The copyright holder is taking action. So if that is not Grant himself, then there doesn't seem to be disagreement.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, not really
Sure it's a given you are allowed to sign away your copyright or make it open you personally lose your rights to decline permission. That's not really the issue at hand. It's up to you to decide if you want to sign away your rights, and even if you do you can negotiate terms. I saw nothing in the article to suggest that was the case though.
As for ASCAP - as far as I'm aware that wouldn't be relevant in this case. ASCAP is for the likes of public performances, think supermarkets, conference centres, radio stations playing music etc. It is not for adverts, where you would need specific permission. This makes sense as labels or artists want to control their brand. They'll likely lose revenue if their artist is associated with politics or say a brand of toilet roll that may be unappealing to their target audience. Indeed even with live events, copyright holders can exclude themselves from certain politics. But again this wasn't a live political rally, it was an advert - different rules.
I was merely noting that although many people (including myself) may not like the concept of copyright. This article shows exactly why it is a necessary evil. I wouldn't want my voice used to promote politics I was against both morally and because of the negative damage it may do to my brand. Political campaigns can licence music or even commission it, which is actually a major reason for copyright in the first place.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: Re: Re: No, not really
Unless he's made his work open, or detailed how his work can be used. The copyright holder has the right to refuse permission to anyone, he does not need to give a reason why. Whether or not "moral rights" are explicitly stated, isn't really relevant. It is universally accepted that the point of copyright is for the owner to have control of how it is used.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: Re: Re: No, not really
Those sort of arrangements rarely if ever cover videos or political advertisements. It would be a stretch to call it parody/satire - it was a political propaganda campaign video.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: Re: Exactly why copyright is needed
That article has literally no relevance to the point, it doesn't even attempt to talk about instances where copyright may be valuable. No artist is going to want their voice used to promote politics they disagree with. That is exactly why we have copyright. Besides, they could have easily found another artist and paid them to use their music with their consent.
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Re: No, not really
Hmm, it would be fairly unusual for a major artist to have it setup in such a way that they do not have the option to decline requests. Artists are usually concerned about their brand, and they will not want their voice to be used for political propaganda that they are against. As noted that is the whole point of copyright, to give control on how their work is used. Even if you dislike the concept of copyright, I struggle to see how anyone can really argue against the need for it in these sort of cases. Even if you don't like the morality aspect, there is a likely a financial impact on the artist if their voice is associated with politics which differs to their fans
On the post: Donald Trump Argues That Use Of 'Electric Avenue' In Campaign Video Was Transformative
Exactly why copyright is needed
This is a textbook example of why copyright is needed. Few artists would wish their work be used to promote politics they are against. This is exactly what copyright was designed for, to give control to the copyright holder
On the post: How Should Social Media Handle Election Polls That Turned Out To Be Misinformation?
It's like forecasting the weather
Think of it like a weather forecast - you don't call it misinformation because the weatherman says there is 55% chance it will rain in particular city it it turns out to be a dry day. I think you're over thinking this, polls are polls - they are based on the data that are available, and there is always an error of margin. That will be published too, even if media outlets choose not to publicise it. As long as there hasn't been a deliberate attempt to try and alter the result from what the data dictates, or ignore data just because you don't like what it says, you can't call it misinformation.
On the post: If Twitter Shuts Down Trump's Account For Repeat Infringement Then Will Trump Fans Finally Realize That Copyright Is The Problem?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Good for Linkin Park
That only applies to the use of music in the actual campaign marches. The issue at hand is a video, where they use the music for a Trump propaganda video. Your link notes that permission is needed in these circumstances, just as anyone producing a commercial would need to gain permission. They did not get permission.
I've not seen the video, but this is a description of what it apparently contained:
For me it's a textbook example of why copyright is needed. I wouldn't want my work or indeed my voice to be used for political propaganda that I was against, I struggle to believe anyone would. At the end if the day that is exactly why we need copyright.
On the post: If Twitter Shuts Down Trump's Account For Repeat Infringement Then Will Trump Fans Finally Realize That Copyright Is The Problem?
Re: how long?
It's considered perjury to claim copyright for something you don't have the rights for. So yes, there potentially there are real penalties. I'd have thought if there were a real issue Twitter or some other body would haul the false claims through the court to create an example. Your point about own musicians given strikes for their own content. It's likely they signed away their copyright.
On the post: If Twitter Shuts Down Trump's Account For Repeat Infringement Then Will Trump Fans Finally Realize That Copyright Is The Problem?
Re: Re: Good for Linkin Park
Haha I agree to that. I don't know if their copyright claim is valid, or indeed if they have transferred it elsewhere. Assuming it is valid, it actually shows why copyright is actually needed. No way would I be happy for my music to be used to support a political campaign against my will. That is the whole point of copyright, to give some control of how their work is used. Copyright isn't the problem here, the problem is using material for which permission hasn't been sought.
On the post: If Twitter Shuts Down Trump's Account For Repeat Infringement Then Will Trump Fans Finally Realize That Copyright Is The Problem?
Good for Linkin Park
They don't want their music to be associated with Trump, and I can understand that. Assuming it was a valid copyright claim, then that let's exactly what copyright is designed for. So no, it's not a problem with copyright at all. The Trump campaign is free to use music for which they have copyright permission to use.
On the post: Copyright Filters And Takedowns Are Broken: Questlove Says YouTube Flagged Him For Playing His Own Tracks
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Consequences should go both ways
Not at all, I understand their business model, they don't want to do editorial role. They want to limit their legal responsibility but keep all the advertising revenue. Takedown requests were a compromise to avoid having to go through onerous moderation, and avoid liability. If you don't have takedowns, then people will call for those who are hosting the content to be liable for copyright infringements. I get that many on this site don't like copyright, but it's not magically going to go away for a variety of reasons.
On the post: UK Information Commissioner Says Police Are Grabbing Too Much Data From Phones Owned By Crime Victims
Re: Re:
At the moment the proper channels are to ask for consent from a complainant. If consent is not given, that limits the ability in some cases to investigate the case, and likely the defendants right of a fair trial. You need evidence to take forward a case. Phone data may not be relevant, it depends on the case. Of course the phone could have information which helps the complainant prove her case too. Politically the police cannot be seen as getting warrants and demanding that a complainants phone is examined, that would be seen as even worst than the current situation. It is likely to put off people reporting incidents if they will be forced against there will to hand over their phone.
On the post: Copyright Filters And Takedowns Are Broken: Questlove Says YouTube Flagged Him For Playing His Own Tracks
Re: Re: Re: Re: Consequences should go both ways
They are hosting the content, that makes them a key player, in my opinion. It's like saying an editor for a paper who decides to print absolutely any article anyone sends is a third party, because they choose not to moderate - or are reactive. But papers don't get away with that. I know they want to be seen as somehow as incidental, their business model depends on it. A third party in this situation could be an advitisor or someone very incidental.
On the post: Copyright Filters And Takedowns Are Broken: Questlove Says YouTube Flagged Him For Playing His Own Tracks
Re: Re: Consequences should go both ways
I'm not sure I'd call youtube a "Third party". They host the content, so they have some level of responsibility to act on removing material that shouldn't legally be there. At least when they are made aware. I know they want to shirk that responsibility as it doesn't fit their business model.
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