My point was that the Bible contains many mentions of polygamy and never once did God condemn it. I did notice a couple of recommended points in there.
So if people read the scriptures then why not follow what the belief in what those words say? That is the whole basis of religion and no one has the lawful right force others to change their beliefs.
Even the Quran is very pro-polygamy concluding that a man should have up to 4 wives. So we are starting to run off on a common religious theme here. Most Muslims stick to one I should add. :-)
The big cultural reason for monogamy is that polygamy has often been unfair to women and hurtful if misused.
They call themselves Mormons and live as a sub-group of this religion and they are certainly recognized within their own communities.
Well whatever others say about them they have certainly stood up for their beliefs despite the law.
In case you are interested research what the OT and NT (Bible) say about polygamy. Maybe then you will see who follows the true religion and who twists the scriptures to match their own agenda.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
Right... And you would never say "My husband" or "my wife" then? I say "my women" due to my various relationship states cannot be summed up by another single term. You could have "my wives" and "my GFs" though but even that is more complex than those simple terms.
Like #3 would be my woman married to another man, separated for 5 years, now living as my virtual wife, we now have a cute daughter, she cannot get divorced there, expensive annulment plan, now succeeded by a legal trickery plan in that she gets divorced here and then wedded to me. That gives her one lawful husband in my country but since divorce does not exist in her country that means unlawful adultery should her ex-husband complain in her country. Now sum all that up in one word. :-)
Double standards does not apply when completely none has expressed such a desire. A common goal for them is to be husband and marriage focused. So the goals they want are compatible within my own goals.
Any relationship needs agreeable goals and boundaries. As I said I made clear my polygamy goal early on and they were certainly free to say yes or no. Even now they could leave me whenever they wanted but they don't (usually) because they are in love with a good man and quite happy.
As to physical appearance then I am certain that applies to most relationships. The fact that I find them "hot" in different ways is a good thing for a passionate relationship. I could certainly show you photos of them when "hot" they indeed are. Island Goddess I sometimes joke.
I may be a dominant male but I know my goals in life and my goals I do achieve. It is true I do not like obese and living a healthy lifestyle certainly avoids that.
Personality is certainly the deal breaker. As I said with #1 she has a very beautiful personality and we get along perfect.
As to the younger age then that was not so much my choice when even those like to lie and claim they are older. Well in one case she had finished her education and her family were like "go and find yourself a husband". I know her cousin and she was like "I know you seek women so do you want this one?". Her family were all supportive of the relationship. And yes she has been my GF for 2 years now which makes her the same age as what she first told me 2 years previously. :-)
Well as I am someone who believes in life long marriages then that does obviously include old age. These women of different ages will age at different rates and that is no problem for me.
Re: Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
Yes I seem to recall that Poland after WW2 changed the law there so that their men could have a second wife should they want one. The problem there was that such vast numbers of the Polish men died in WW2 that a vast array of women discovered they simply could not get a man.
Well just because we have a 51%/49% population does not mean we should apply artificial controls. Even if it makes polygamy harder it can still be done lawfully by marrying one, then divorcing her, before marrying the next. Also bigamy is not a problem if all wives consent and refuse to take action. A crime does actually need a victim.
You do not allocate for gays and lesbians however that would screw the balance. Then of course marriage is optional and so many people live happy relationships without marriage.
Since there are no population controls beyond culture then as we already see the population balances out anyway when so many people have so many different desires. Why try to control what people do in the privacy of their own homes and bedrooms?
Re: Re: Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
I am a straight male and marriage and relationships are still being sorted out.
Polygamy is what I made clear early in my relationships when a woman can understand a man's needs if allowed to. They also value what a good man I am and my honesty, help and commitment. Just to advertise about can have people recommend you suitable women.
I would not allow my women to have other men for various logical reasons. First is that most of these are good Catholic women and while one man to one woman would be their ideal they still believe in being good loving and faithful wives to their man. Just because my values vary from the average man does not mean their value change from being a good faithful wife and mother.
The second reason would be that I like to be territorial where these are my women and no one but I will make babies with them (beyond any they already have). I have already seen myself that emotional women can't easily handle a multi-partner relationship. Then as I also know a lot about women then having them bed another man would mean they are unhappy with our relationship.
Not to forget I always need to make certain that my women are always clean and to do a fully open relationship presents a large STD risk.
Well let me give you a couple of nameless examples. First their is #1 who fell pregnant during her high school days and left with no qualifications. She then had 2 other kids with this man before he one day turned around and said "I don't want to do this any more" before he left her. She is unqualified for jobs and needs to focus on childcare. She has an ill sister with a problem heart and spare family income usually goes on the medicine to keep her sister healthy and alive. So she has needed a man like she needs air to breath and at age 26 she has a beautiful personality and a hot figure. She greatly values my help and my polygamy to her falls under whatever makes you happy. I of course aim to have her finish her education and to give her some independence from simply being a mom all the time.
Then #2 I knew as a young virgin girl and oddly enough she has bi desire and finds my polygamy relationship "fun" and she desire to watch me bed other women. She is the skinny type but is a very very beautiful young woman.
On to #3 being my oldest existing partner and mother of my only daughter. She just needed a good man after a failed marriage and where her life crashed until she was left sleeping on the company floor. As she does not find polygamy easy then I allow her to have a her own private monogamy life in my polygamy world. She is very much in love and happy and a ultra cute daughter fulfils her long overdue desire for motherhood.
I could go on but you get the picture. Many women want a truly good man and sharing is not that hard compared to the other hardships life throws at them.
It is not all good news when polygamy consumes a lot more time, money and energy. Certainly not everyone can do polygamy when it is very important to treat them all equally and fairly. To always let them know they are important and loved and for them to feel "special" in my eyes.
Do I take it then you would not desire to go to bed with two hot women at once? Ride them both? I presume by this you are a man. Many other aspects beyond that one of course.
I do have a good idea why this bigamy case came about when women are usually very keen on wedded bliss. So the wife aspect can be more a woman desire when even with knowledge they hate the mistress title.
So men like women and women like marriage. A relationship is about meeting the needs of the other.
Gee. He was simply too lazy to get one of those quick easy divorces.
He should be thankful when long ago people did not choose who they married when that was a choice of their father. Marriage was often done to obtain some family gain and love played no real part of it. Babies very common.
Then it was not that long ago that divorce was even an option and had to work down to the little people. Then some countries like the Philippines still have no divorce putting a large burden on annulment.
So he should be very thankful he could get an easy divorce but he was too stupid to actually use it.
That is not what I have often heard. Sure only a few groups do but do they indeed do.
The local police say they won't interfere in their polygamous multi-wife marriages as long as the child bride aspect is stamped out. Yes polygamy is not lawful in the USA but most people leave those unusual Mormons alone to find the happiness they seek.
I heard a case in Canada recently of one woman wanting her right to live as a polygamous wife and going to court. She lost her case with some very questionable conclusion.
Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
What is wrong with bigamy? Well the problem there is that bigamy is a law that punishes unlawful marriages. Little more to it than that.
I believe your correct question is what is wrong with polygamy? I tend to know a lot about that one seeing that I actually do it.
The main reason for monogamy is certainly religion but this is not religious texts but the religious organization (ie church) that enforces it. For example God has never condemned polygamy in the Bible. There are many polygamy references in the bible and was recommended twice I recall but this is usually summed up as polygamy is not normally recommended when it can corrupt the heart.
The second main aspect is culture when people do monogamy because everyone else does it. Family, friends, neighbours so why should you be different?
Then a third aspect is the state which forms from a unification of the first two. They are the ones that cause the most disruption to a polygamy life and in many ways oppose multiple wives even if lawfully wed.
Well from my polygamy life I find that general people are more receptive. For friends it is a non-issue, strangers interested, and even the family of these women are happy they have a good man and a good life and of course serious.
It a much harder relationship keeping all happy and to show love, care and importance. Very time and resource consuming but we all get what we need.
Well he was an idiot for not getting a simple divorce before his second marriage. Now his larger problem is a vindictive first and soon to be ex-wife when sure enough if wifey takes action then bigamy charges follow.
A simple open and shut case showing that the number of wives a man is allowed is one. That is unless you are a Mormon and rarely the Muslims do it too.
I beat them all though when I have various GFs desiring wife status but all these women know of each other (sharing) and of course all needs to be done lawfully.
I have done that one much before here in the UK when I lacked a broadband link.
I certainly broke many contract rules. Tethering denied but they don't care. BitTorrent use banned but I was fair & did that during the night. Then they banned Yahoo Messenger but I worked around it. And last is that their "unlimited" plan gets increasingly restricted the more often you exceed 1GB which I avoided by switching between three SIMs for fully unlimited each month.
Well I don't see how any service can not expect people to do tethering when with one laptop connection your Internet linked phone is now a wireless modem.
Well AT&T are all in the wrong here which has been validated in Court at some considerable expense to them.
Matt Spaccarelli is certainly in his rights to make public his victory and to encourage others to follow him. AT&T's gagging order will certainly fail when they are the ones who broke the contract and now want to deny his free speech.
We can be certain that AT&T are none too pleased with these developments losing up to $850 each case. However to cut off his phone link would be very vindictive and may even result in another court case.
AT&T need to listen to what is said. They made a deal under contract and it is their lawful obligation to honour that deal stating "unlimited". If they do not like it then do not renew the agreement at the end of the 12 months. If they want users to switch earlier than offer them a better deal.
It is however wrong for AT&T to cripple their expensive service just to force people to get back on their feet under another plan.
I am sorry to say AT&T that you have much pain due until you realise you did wrong and make amends. There is no other option here but to honour the contract.
GEMA is certainly the most unhelpful collection service in Europe for rights holders. Lets not forget that companies like Sony want their music videos to appear on YouTube but GEMA's ongoing dispute again YouTube is blocking thousands of music videos appearing and therefore not earning the musicians and rights holders money.
Then I dare anyone to do VPN to a server based in Germany when just by visiting your favourite sites you will be shocked at how much content is blocked and how many sites say "we cannot provide service to Germany due to unreasonable licencing deals".
Spotify has long been part of that list and it is good to now see them make some in-roads into Germany. Yes insisting on a Facebook link is very unhelpful but if a person is big on anonymity like myself then they would keep a second Facebook account containing false details.
So it is not correct to say that anonymity would be lost by insisting on a Facebook link but it is certainly an attempt to have people identify themselves.
I am just happy that the European Union rejected patents on computer software. I believe we can now see that this was a wise choice.
Kind of odd when two software developers can fully independently come up with the same solution if faced with the same problem. The one who does it first then suing the second, third and so on is then totally misplaced.
It all depends on what the copyright registration on these 275 works actually says. I highly doubt there is any license to use them for commercial gain and even if there wax the limits would be extremely minor.
Things may yet get more complex when if 'C' was supposed to turn over rights to 'A' but did not correctly do so then the Court may yet force 'C' to turn over rights to 'A' which then get transferred to 'B'
Best read these 275 registration but in all odds they are worthless just like their claims were.
It is not too hard to see what is going on there in their desire to engage with social networks.
We can of course muster up hundreds of thousands or even millions of protesters who also go under the name of "voters" and what many politicians would be wanting to please. In that same regard we also have a list of those who we need to remove from power.
What is clear to us is that the Internet as we know it is under attack and very few of us would want to turn the current wild west gun fight into much worse by arming them with weapons of mass destruction. Not only that they are clearly aiming to target citizens with monitoring and filtering.
I can't see how Glyn Moody can say political engagement would be a bad thing when this is exactly what we want and need. Certainly we should never forget our cause to protect the Internet and not to let them ass around with protecting old monopolies at the expense of the open market. We do need our voice heard and to only kill bad new laws is not the only way when large parts of copyright law needs to be reformed as well.
I do think we are going through an amazing time. Every major historical event involves much hard conflict and we clearly go through many battle as the world changes around us. We now have to protect the freedoms of the Internet to pass to future generations when those freedoms are now at risk of being lost.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: Re:
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One to many
My point was that the Bible contains many mentions of polygamy and never once did God condemn it. I did notice a couple of recommended points in there.
So if people read the scriptures then why not follow what the belief in what those words say? That is the whole basis of religion and no one has the lawful right force others to change their beliefs.
Even the Quran is very pro-polygamy concluding that a man should have up to 4 wives. So we are starting to run off on a common religious theme here. Most Muslims stick to one I should add. :-)
The big cultural reason for monogamy is that polygamy has often been unfair to women and hurtful if misused.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: Re: One to many
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-Day_Saints
Those 10,000 members will sure fill a lot of churches. I should keep in mind they are LDS now.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: Re: Re: One to many
Well whatever others say about them they have certainly stood up for their beliefs despite the law.
In case you are interested research what the OT and NT (Bible) say about polygamy. Maybe then you will see who follows the true religion and who twists the scriptures to match their own agenda.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
Like #3 would be my woman married to another man, separated for 5 years, now living as my virtual wife, we now have a cute daughter, she cannot get divorced there, expensive annulment plan, now succeeded by a legal trickery plan in that she gets divorced here and then wedded to me. That gives her one lawful husband in my country but since divorce does not exist in her country that means unlawful adultery should her ex-husband complain in her country. Now sum all that up in one word. :-)
Double standards does not apply when completely none has expressed such a desire. A common goal for them is to be husband and marriage focused. So the goals they want are compatible within my own goals.
Any relationship needs agreeable goals and boundaries. As I said I made clear my polygamy goal early on and they were certainly free to say yes or no. Even now they could leave me whenever they wanted but they don't (usually) because they are in love with a good man and quite happy.
As to physical appearance then I am certain that applies to most relationships. The fact that I find them "hot" in different ways is a good thing for a passionate relationship. I could certainly show you photos of them when "hot" they indeed are. Island Goddess I sometimes joke.
I may be a dominant male but I know my goals in life and my goals I do achieve. It is true I do not like obese and living a healthy lifestyle certainly avoids that.
Personality is certainly the deal breaker. As I said with #1 she has a very beautiful personality and we get along perfect.
As to the younger age then that was not so much my choice when even those like to lie and claim they are older. Well in one case she had finished her education and her family were like "go and find yourself a husband". I know her cousin and she was like "I know you seek women so do you want this one?". Her family were all supportive of the relationship. And yes she has been my GF for 2 years now which makes her the same age as what she first told me 2 years previously. :-)
Well as I am someone who believes in life long marriages then that does obviously include old age. These women of different ages will age at different rates and that is no problem for me.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
Well just because we have a 51%/49% population does not mean we should apply artificial controls. Even if it makes polygamy harder it can still be done lawfully by marrying one, then divorcing her, before marrying the next. Also bigamy is not a problem if all wives consent and refuse to take action. A crime does actually need a victim.
You do not allocate for gays and lesbians however that would screw the balance. Then of course marriage is optional and so many people live happy relationships without marriage.
Since there are no population controls beyond culture then as we already see the population balances out anyway when so many people have so many different desires. Why try to control what people do in the privacy of their own homes and bedrooms?
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
Polygamy is what I made clear early in my relationships when a woman can understand a man's needs if allowed to. They also value what a good man I am and my honesty, help and commitment. Just to advertise about can have people recommend you suitable women.
I would not allow my women to have other men for various logical reasons. First is that most of these are good Catholic women and while one man to one woman would be their ideal they still believe in being good loving and faithful wives to their man. Just because my values vary from the average man does not mean their value change from being a good faithful wife and mother.
The second reason would be that I like to be territorial where these are my women and no one but I will make babies with them (beyond any they already have). I have already seen myself that emotional women can't easily handle a multi-partner relationship. Then as I also know a lot about women then having them bed another man would mean they are unhappy with our relationship.
Not to forget I always need to make certain that my women are always clean and to do a fully open relationship presents a large STD risk.
Well let me give you a couple of nameless examples. First their is #1 who fell pregnant during her high school days and left with no qualifications. She then had 2 other kids with this man before he one day turned around and said "I don't want to do this any more" before he left her. She is unqualified for jobs and needs to focus on childcare. She has an ill sister with a problem heart and spare family income usually goes on the medicine to keep her sister healthy and alive. So she has needed a man like she needs air to breath and at age 26 she has a beautiful personality and a hot figure. She greatly values my help and my polygamy to her falls under whatever makes you happy. I of course aim to have her finish her education and to give her some independence from simply being a mom all the time.
Then #2 I knew as a young virgin girl and oddly enough she has bi desire and finds my polygamy relationship "fun" and she desire to watch me bed other women. She is the skinny type but is a very very beautiful young woman.
On to #3 being my oldest existing partner and mother of my only daughter. She just needed a good man after a failed marriage and where her life crashed until she was left sleeping on the company floor. As she does not find polygamy easy then I allow her to have a her own private monogamy life in my polygamy world. She is very much in love and happy and a ultra cute daughter fulfils her long overdue desire for motherhood.
I could go on but you get the picture. Many women want a truly good man and sharing is not that hard compared to the other hardships life throws at them.
It is not all good news when polygamy consumes a lot more time, money and energy. Certainly not everyone can do polygamy when it is very important to treat them all equally and fairly. To always let them know they are important and loved and for them to feel "special" in my eyes.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re:
I do have a good idea why this bigamy case came about when women are usually very keen on wedded bliss. So the wife aspect can be more a woman desire when even with knowledge they hate the mistress title.
So men like women and women like marriage. A relationship is about meeting the needs of the other.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re:
He should be thankful when long ago people did not choose who they married when that was a choice of their father. Marriage was often done to obtain some family gain and love played no real part of it. Babies very common.
Then it was not that long ago that divorce was even an option and had to work down to the little people. Then some countries like the Philippines still have no divorce putting a large burden on annulment.
So he should be very thankful he could get an easy divorce but he was too stupid to actually use it.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Re: One to many
The local police say they won't interfere in their polygamous multi-wife marriages as long as the child bride aspect is stamped out. Yes polygamy is not lawful in the USA but most people leave those unusual Mormons alone to find the happiness they seek.
I heard a case in Canada recently of one woman wanting her right to live as a polygamous wife and going to court. She lost her case with some very questionable conclusion.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
Re: Other than Jewish/Christian Religious Traditions...
I believe your correct question is what is wrong with polygamy? I tend to know a lot about that one seeing that I actually do it.
The main reason for monogamy is certainly religion but this is not religious texts but the religious organization (ie church) that enforces it. For example God has never condemned polygamy in the Bible. There are many polygamy references in the bible and was recommended twice I recall but this is usually summed up as polygamy is not normally recommended when it can corrupt the heart.
The second main aspect is culture when people do monogamy because everyone else does it. Family, friends, neighbours so why should you be different?
Then a third aspect is the state which forms from a unification of the first two. They are the ones that cause the most disruption to a polygamy life and in many ways oppose multiple wives even if lawfully wed.
Well from my polygamy life I find that general people are more receptive. For friends it is a non-issue, strangers interested, and even the family of these women are happy they have a good man and a good life and of course serious.
It a much harder relationship keeping all happy and to show love, care and importance. Very time and resource consuming but we all get what we need.
On the post: What To Do When Facebook Suggests You Become Friends With Your Husband's Other Wife
One to many
A simple open and shut case showing that the number of wives a man is allowed is one. That is unless you are a Mormon and rarely the Muslims do it too.
I beat them all though when I have various GFs desiring wife status but all these women know of each other (sharing) and of course all needs to be done lawfully.
On the post: Spotify Finally Launches In Germany -- And Immediately Hits Data Protection Problems
Re: Re: GEMA, Sony, YouTube, Spotify & Facebook
I have three Facebook accounts (me, my daughter, and fake me) and I made a fourth account for a friend.
On the post: ISPs Will Start Acting As Hollywood's Private Online Security Guards By July
VPN in Europe would be the ideal but there are many other options.
On the post: AT&T Threatens To Cut Off Phone Service For Guy Who Beat Them In Small Claims Court Over Throttling
Re:
I certainly broke many contract rules. Tethering denied but they don't care. BitTorrent use banned but I was fair & did that during the night. Then they banned Yahoo Messenger but I worked around it. And last is that their "unlimited" plan gets increasingly restricted the more often you exceed 1GB which I avoided by switching between three SIMs for fully unlimited each month.
Well I don't see how any service can not expect people to do tethering when with one laptop connection your Internet linked phone is now a wireless modem.
On the post: AT&T Threatens To Cut Off Phone Service For Guy Who Beat Them In Small Claims Court Over Throttling
All wrong.
Matt Spaccarelli is certainly in his rights to make public his victory and to encourage others to follow him. AT&T's gagging order will certainly fail when they are the ones who broke the contract and now want to deny his free speech.
We can be certain that AT&T are none too pleased with these developments losing up to $850 each case. However to cut off his phone link would be very vindictive and may even result in another court case.
AT&T need to listen to what is said. They made a deal under contract and it is their lawful obligation to honour that deal stating "unlimited". If they do not like it then do not renew the agreement at the end of the 12 months. If they want users to switch earlier than offer them a better deal.
It is however wrong for AT&T to cripple their expensive service just to force people to get back on their feet under another plan.
I am sorry to say AT&T that you have much pain due until you realise you did wrong and make amends. There is no other option here but to honour the contract.
On the post: Spotify Finally Launches In Germany -- And Immediately Hits Data Protection Problems
GEMA, Sony, YouTube, Spotify & Facebook
Then I dare anyone to do VPN to a server based in Germany when just by visiting your favourite sites you will be shocked at how much content is blocked and how many sites say "we cannot provide service to Germany due to unreasonable licencing deals".
Spotify has long been part of that list and it is good to now see them make some in-roads into Germany. Yes insisting on a Facebook link is very unhelpful but if a person is big on anonymity like myself then they would keep a second Facebook account containing false details.
So it is not correct to say that anonymity would be lost by insisting on a Facebook link but it is certainly an attempt to have people identify themselves.
On the post: Holocaust History Preserver Shoah Foundation's Patents Being Used To Sue Google, Facebook, Hulu, Netflix, Amazon
Bad Patents
Kind of odd when two software developers can fully independently come up with the same solution if faced with the same problem. The one who does it first then suing the second, third and so on is then totally misplaced.
On the post: Whatever Copyrights Righthaven Might Actually Have Owned Now Transferred To Receiver For Auction
Re: Re:
Things may yet get more complex when if 'C' was supposed to turn over rights to 'A' but did not correctly do so then the Court may yet force 'C' to turn over rights to 'A' which then get transferred to 'B'
Best read these 275 registration but in all odds they are worthless just like their claims were.
On the post: European Commission Blames Social Networks For ACTA Failure; Worried About Its Imminent Directive On Copyright Enforcement
Politics
We can of course muster up hundreds of thousands or even millions of protesters who also go under the name of "voters" and what many politicians would be wanting to please. In that same regard we also have a list of those who we need to remove from power.
What is clear to us is that the Internet as we know it is under attack and very few of us would want to turn the current wild west gun fight into much worse by arming them with weapons of mass destruction. Not only that they are clearly aiming to target citizens with monitoring and filtering.
I can't see how Glyn Moody can say political engagement would be a bad thing when this is exactly what we want and need. Certainly we should never forget our cause to protect the Internet and not to let them ass around with protecting old monopolies at the expense of the open market. We do need our voice heard and to only kill bad new laws is not the only way when large parts of copyright law needs to be reformed as well.
I do think we are going through an amazing time. Every major historical event involves much hard conflict and we clearly go through many battle as the world changes around us. We now have to protect the freedoms of the Internet to pass to future generations when those freedoms are now at risk of being lost.
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