It's difficult to discuss this rationally - for everyone
I would suggest that there are some factual errors in the claims presented. It pays not to believe everything you read.
The biggest problem is that horned cattle are not as big an issue as the GMO companies would want us to believe. The other problem is that there is a dichotomy in their facts. Sometimes they want us to believe that GMO tech is no different than what has been happening for millenia, other times they want it to be different enough that they can patent it. You can't have it both ways.
Let's look at the state of cattle in the US first. How many horned breed are used in major production? There are polled breeds and there are horned breeds. But it is hard to determine how many horned cattle there are because the polled gene is dominant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polled_livestock
If I went out in my pasture and counted how many of my renter's cattle had horns, I might find half a dozen, including those shorthorn cows with one short, flattened horn against the skull. Cattlemen have selected against horns for a long time. Cattlemen have also bred for temperament, too, which is a more important characteristic for safety. But unless you are a cattleman, you don't know which physical characteristics to look at to determine temperament.
Here's a list of cattle and which are horned and polled, based on pictures and my observations of who actually keeps breeding stock with horns. Source for breeds and pictures is here: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/
Dairy:
Holstein - polled
Jersey - polled
Brown Swiss - polled
Guernsey - polled
Ayrshire - horned
Less numerous breeds
Beefalo - polled
Belgian Blue - polled
Belted Galloway - polled
Brahman - horned - like pitbulls, used mainly in rodeos
Devon - horned
Dexter - horned
Dutch Belted - horned
Gutch Freisian - polled
Galloway - polled
Gelbvieh - polled
Milking Devon - horned
Milking Shorthorn - polled
Piedmontese - polled
Red Angus - polled
South Devon - polled
So how dangerous are horns? Have any of you had a friend killed by a cow or bull? I have. It wasn't a horned cow, either. Cattle are dangerous with or without horns. Breeding out horns really avoids more property damage, more damage to other cattle, and getting horns caught in chutes and trucks racks. I've never been stepped on by a cow, although a sow stepped on my sneakered foot, and I'm not volunteering for the cow.
Bottom line is that traditional breeding techniques seem to have been working very well, and have already substantially solved the problem that the GMO companies want to re-solve. It's not like every cow has a rack like an Ankole-Watusi or a Madagascar Zebu.
If the GMO companies re-solve the problem, they then get control of the food supply. Is that what you really want? Privatized food supplies, just like the Pharaohs?
----
Question - Is GMO the same as traditional breeding techniques? The GMO companies would have you believe so. And I am not including “in vitro nucleic acid techniques, including recombinant DNA and direct injection of nucleic acid into cells or organelles.” in my definition of traditional breeding techniques. Those have not been used for centuries.
When GMO companies patented their genetic modifications, they claimed that they were different than existing techniques. That got them the patent.
When GMO companies applied for FDA approval of said GMO products, they claimed that they were "substantially equivalent" to existing products.
My question is "Which answer is true?" I am not a moron because I ask this question. I didn't set this situation up. I just want an answer. And while we're at it, I would like copies of any studies done to prove that GMO food is safe. Studies were provided to the FDA in the approval process, but are kept secret because they are trade secrets, despite being patented. The two studies which were doneo n GMOs showed health problems in humans. These studies were attacked (obviosuly) by the GMO companies, but they never offered any of their own studies in evidence. They just said "trust us!". I don't trust them, and the law says that I don't have to trust them. Upton Sinclair helped make sure that our food supply COULD be trusted by NOT trusting the food companies.
Patents are supposed to disclose the method for the advancement of science and the good of the public. Just show me the beef, so to speak, and I'll be happy.
There are a lot of other mis-statements in the article, but they all flow from these two errors, so I won't waste more electrons debating them.
I don't know if sustainable ag can support the population, but it can support the planet, and that is a prerequisite for supporting the population.
Rant independent of your comments:
And most food problems are caused by war and political corruption. Food is hoarded, or it isn't given to certain populations. And sometimes relief organizations aren't allowed in certain parts of a country. Reform the governments and you reform the food problems somewhat.
IFF the planet can be fully utilized can we feed the whole world. What do you think the yields have been in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, and other hot spots around the world? How do land mines affect ag output?
In the organic article, both the author and TechDirt are making a bad assumption - that the volume of crops grown is equivalent between organic crops and modern factory farming. Let me throw in a third method - old-fashioned sustainable agriculture. Organic ag is not always sustainable, especially if it is being done by a corporation. Sustainable ag involves crop rotation, raising grains and livestock (inputs and outputs form a cycle), and processing the crops as much as possible before shipping them.
If you look at the USDA Agricultural Almanac over the years, I am told that you will notice a decrease in nutrient levels from year to year. I grew up on an Iowa farm. As a kid, I helped my Dad feed open-pollinated Reid's Yellow Dent field corn to cattle that we raised. Later on, Dad switched to hybrid corn, bought more corn and fed more cattle. Someday, I'd like to see if I can figure out what the yield of beef per bushel of corn was between those two situations.
I have noticed that grocery stores charge more for "jumbo" fruit, but the flavor is better in smaller fruits. The nutrient level may not be any better in those jumbos, as Mother Nature only has so much to give regardless of the size of the package. Empty calories don't help anybody.
Just remember, most of these studies are being done by corporations with a stake in the outcome. Small farmers don't fund scientific studies, they just find out what works best. It would be nice if the government would fund some impartial studies that looked at the whole spectrum, although I don't think anybody understands it completely yet. If they did, we would understand protein folding and the term "junk DNA" would not be used.
Sex is a wonderful thing. It it hadn't existed, we would have had to invent it.
But sex also correlates with an increase in intimacy. And sometimes that intimacy crashes. I would prefer not to suffer so many crashes. It's a personal choice.
I prefer to call "adult content" "arrested adolescent content". If I can't take it with me through an adult day - at home, in the community, in the office, or anywhere else I, or you, may go - then it isn't truly adult content. Adult sex is something that lasts and improves over time.
Sometimes, sex can be too important to leave to silly, casual, uncommitted encounters. It is so attractive that we can do stupid things in pursuit of it. Thus the occasional reference to "thinking with the gonads instead of the brain".
I will still translate if you don't change, though. :-)
So what you're saying is that we could save large amounts of money by just rubber-stamping every patent application that comes through the USPTO and laying off all the employees, including David Kappos' successor?
Some CongressCritter is going to HAVE to jump on this opportunity!
There is something funny going on with her behavior, too. First off, she took the Fifth Amendment along with the other bozos. What possible reason could she have for doing that? It has been explained that pleading the Fifth in a civil case is possibly pointless, and may not prevent the judge from using the best information at hand in the worst way possible against them. A paralegal should be aware of the legal implications.
So, my question is, what does she have at stake here? I would think that a paralegal would just be an employee in a law firm, not a partner or co-owner of the company. It implies that she has a stake in this scam larger than just trying to stay employed.
When all is said and done, she might just be a scared, impressionable low-level road-kill of an employee, but I'm not trusting her with the key to my safe deposit box until we find out just how deeply entangled she is with this scam.
One owns every thought they've ever had, and anything similar, the other patents life, which they did not make, but discovered. And yes, I am aware of how biotech works. Very poorly. Do your patented process, grow out the results, and throw away everything that doesn't match what you wanted. Bah, Humbug!
Despite Mike comments, I think they both deserve all that they can dish at each other.
Re: Re: What Bill Gates means is HE would have had to PAY THE CREATORS!
Back in the 60s, if you made a million dollars, the tax rate was 90%.
You remember the 60s, don't you? NASA, great employment, booming economy, manufacturing plants all over America, no call centers...
I don't remember companies moving overseas back then. That didn't start until the late 70s. Companies WERE starting to move west and south in America by the end of the 60s because they were trying to shed unions, but that was just more greed. It didn't have anything to do with the tax rate. Companies were focused on a skilled labor force back then. Now it is just warm bodies.
I notice that he really seems to be enjoying what he's doing. If you don't enjoy it, you're not going to be good at it. Contrast that with the productions that are modern music. Yeah, some of his videos are really corny. But they are also very real. And I like that.
I loved his remake of "Lady Godiva". And "This Kiss". And "She Walks Right Through Me". Good stuff, Maynard!
It reminds me of what we used to call "street theater" back in the 60s/early 70s. Just go out there and have fun. Who cares about the plan, just go with the flow. And have fun! Fun is contagious.
I have always been struck by how much fun bands like Jeff Beck seem to have a lot of fun and really enjoy each other and their music. A lot of smiles there. Same with Eric Clapton's groups, especially the one he assembled for the Robert Johnson numbers in "Sessions for Robert J" and for the Crossroads Festival 2007. For new groups, Derek Trucks and Susan Tedeschi and band are having a blast!
Joseph Campbell used to say "Follow your bliss!" It looks like Day is doing that. More power to him.
I remember walking around DC looking at all the tanks and half-tracks and soldiers on every traffic circle.
I stopped by Kent State this last summer on my way back from my son's graduation. There is a bullet hole in a sculpture on the campus from a round fired by the National Guard. What I never realized before is that the hole is in an I-beam that is approximately one quarter inch thick. It was a .30 caliber magnum round. It was used against US citizens who were also students, and some of whom were not yet adults. I think the legal age then was 21, so most of them were minors.
AFAIK, this would be the FIRST release of ANY data on GM trials ANYWHERE in the world.
That is why Monsanto is so concerned about it. They definitely have something to hide there. They have patented their GM products as being new and nonobvious. They have gotten FDA approval based on the assertion that their GM products are substantially equivalent to existing products.
Of course they have something to hide. They have been able to keep one side of the equation secret until now. And those of us who have pointed out the apparent contradiction have been called kooks because we can't show the data.
On the post: Frankencows: A Complete Misunderstanding Of Science
It's difficult to discuss this rationally - for everyone
The biggest problem is that horned cattle are not as big an issue as the GMO companies would want us to believe. The other problem is that there is a dichotomy in their facts. Sometimes they want us to believe that GMO tech is no different than what has been happening for millenia, other times they want it to be different enough that they can patent it. You can't have it both ways.
Let's look at the state of cattle in the US first. How many horned breed are used in major production? There are polled breeds and there are horned breeds. But it is hard to determine how many horned cattle there are because the polled gene is dominant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polled_livestock
If I went out in my pasture and counted how many of my renter's cattle had horns, I might find half a dozen, including those shorthorn cows with one short, flattened horn against the skull. Cattlemen have selected against horns for a long time. Cattlemen have also bred for temperament, too, which is a more important characteristic for safety. But unless you are a cattleman, you don't know which physical characteristics to look at to determine temperament.
Here's a list of cattle and which are horned and polled, based on pictures and my observations of who actually keeps breeding stock with horns. Source for breeds and pictures is here: http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/
The major breeds
Beef:
Angus - polled
Hereford - horned
Simmental - polled
Charolais - polled
Chianina - polled
Shorthorn - horned, but many polled
Polled hereford - polled
Limousin - polled
Dairy:
Holstein - polled
Jersey - polled
Brown Swiss - polled
Guernsey - polled
Ayrshire - horned
Less numerous breeds
Beefalo - polled
Belgian Blue - polled
Belted Galloway - polled
Brahman - horned - like pitbulls, used mainly in rodeos
Devon - horned
Dexter - horned
Dutch Belted - horned
Gutch Freisian - polled
Galloway - polled
Gelbvieh - polled
Milking Devon - horned
Milking Shorthorn - polled
Piedmontese - polled
Red Angus - polled
South Devon - polled
So how dangerous are horns? Have any of you had a friend killed by a cow or bull? I have. It wasn't a horned cow, either. Cattle are dangerous with or without horns. Breeding out horns really avoids more property damage, more damage to other cattle, and getting horns caught in chutes and trucks racks. I've never been stepped on by a cow, although a sow stepped on my sneakered foot, and I'm not volunteering for the cow.
Bottom line is that traditional breeding techniques seem to have been working very well, and have already substantially solved the problem that the GMO companies want to re-solve. It's not like every cow has a rack like an Ankole-Watusi or a Madagascar Zebu.
If the GMO companies re-solve the problem, they then get control of the food supply. Is that what you really want? Privatized food supplies, just like the Pharaohs?
----
Question - Is GMO the same as traditional breeding techniques? The GMO companies would have you believe so. And I am not including “in vitro nucleic acid techniques, including recombinant DNA and direct injection of nucleic acid into cells or organelles.” in my definition of traditional breeding techniques. Those have not been used for centuries.
When GMO companies patented their genetic modifications, they claimed that they were different than existing techniques. That got them the patent.
When GMO companies applied for FDA approval of said GMO products, they claimed that they were "substantially equivalent" to existing products.
My question is "Which answer is true?" I am not a moron because I ask this question. I didn't set this situation up. I just want an answer. And while we're at it, I would like copies of any studies done to prove that GMO food is safe. Studies were provided to the FDA in the approval process, but are kept secret because they are trade secrets, despite being patented. The two studies which were doneo n GMOs showed health problems in humans. These studies were attacked (obviosuly) by the GMO companies, but they never offered any of their own studies in evidence. They just said "trust us!". I don't trust them, and the law says that I don't have to trust them. Upton Sinclair helped make sure that our food supply COULD be trusted by NOT trusting the food companies.
Patents are supposed to disclose the method for the advancement of science and the good of the public. Just show me the beef, so to speak, and I'll be happy.
There are a lot of other mis-statements in the article, but they all flow from these two errors, so I won't waste more electrons debating them.
On the post: MPAA Accused Of Tampering With Evidence In Key Copyright Case In Finland
Evidence they did not tamper with is:
Way to go, Team Analog!
On the post: DailyDirt: Farming In The Future
Re: Re: Bad assumption
Rant independent of your comments:
And most food problems are caused by war and political corruption. Food is hoarded, or it isn't given to certain populations. And sometimes relief organizations aren't allowed in certain parts of a country. Reform the governments and you reform the food problems somewhat.
IFF the planet can be fully utilized can we feed the whole world. What do you think the yields have been in Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, and other hot spots around the world? How do land mines affect ag output?
On the post: DailyDirt: Farming In The Future
Bad assumption
If you look at the USDA Agricultural Almanac over the years, I am told that you will notice a decrease in nutrient levels from year to year. I grew up on an Iowa farm. As a kid, I helped my Dad feed open-pollinated Reid's Yellow Dent field corn to cattle that we raised. Later on, Dad switched to hybrid corn, bought more corn and fed more cattle. Someday, I'd like to see if I can figure out what the yield of beef per bushel of corn was between those two situations.
I have noticed that grocery stores charge more for "jumbo" fruit, but the flavor is better in smaller fruits. The nutrient level may not be any better in those jumbos, as Mother Nature only has so much to give regardless of the size of the package. Empty calories don't help anybody.
Just remember, most of these studies are being done by corporations with a stake in the outcome. Small farmers don't fund scientific studies, they just find out what works best. It would be nice if the government would fund some impartial studies that looked at the whole spectrum, although I don't think anybody understands it completely yet. If they did, we would understand protein folding and the term "junk DNA" would not be used.
Anyway, don't believe everything you read.
On the post: San Diego Cop Thinks You Might Have Turned Your Cell Phone Into A Gun And That 'Officer Safety' Trumps Constitutional Rights
Re: Re: He's actually correct, in a manner of speaking
Guess I'd better read the manual to see how to make a weapon out of it. :-)
On the post: What We Should Learn From Comic Creators Censoring Themselves For Apple
A suggestion for changing the terminology
But sex also correlates with an increase in intimacy. And sometimes that intimacy crashes. I would prefer not to suffer so many crashes. It's a personal choice.
I prefer to call "adult content" "arrested adolescent content". If I can't take it with me through an adult day - at home, in the community, in the office, or anywhere else I, or you, may go - then it isn't truly adult content. Adult sex is something that lasts and improves over time.
Sometimes, sex can be too important to leave to silly, casual, uncommitted encounters. It is so attractive that we can do stupid things in pursuit of it. Thus the occasional reference to "thinking with the gonads instead of the brain".
I will still translate if you don't change, though. :-)
On the post: MPAA Starts Backing Away, Slowly, From Bogus Piracy Stats (But New Bogus Stats Are On Their Way)
Prediction
On the post: New Study: USPTO Drastically Lowered Its Standards In Approving Patents To Reduce Backlog
Re:
English is SUCH a bastardized language. We can make words mean anything without using tonal inflections like Chinese does.
On the post: Uh Oh: US Postal Service Wants To Better 'Monetize' Its 'Intellectual Property'
Deja Vu All Over Again
On the post: New Study: USPTO Drastically Lowered Its Standards In Approving Patents To Reduce Backlog
A money saving proposition
Some CongressCritter is going to HAVE to jump on this opportunity!
On the post: Mutual 'Friend' Of John Steele And Alan Cooper Implies That Cooper Was 'Off His Meds' When Accusing Steele Of Identity Fraud
I'm not letting the paralegal off the hook
So, my question is, what does she have at stake here? I would think that a paralegal would just be an employee in a law firm, not a partner or co-owner of the company. It implies that she has a stake in this scam larger than just trying to stay employed.
When all is said and done, she might just be a scared, impressionable low-level road-kill of an employee, but I'm not trusting her with the key to my safe deposit box until we find out just how deeply entangled she is with this scam.
On the post: Organization That Plagiarized Guide On Making Science Posters Has Pricey Lawyer Threaten Original Creator With Copyright Claim
Copyright trolls and biotech
One owns every thought they've ever had, and anything similar, the other patents life, which they did not make, but discovered. And yes, I am aware of how biotech works. Very poorly. Do your patented process, grow out the results, and throw away everything that doesn't match what you wanted. Bah, Humbug!
Despite Mike comments, I think they both deserve all that they can dish at each other.
On the post: Movie Studios Filing DMCA Takedowns Over DMCA Takedowns
Links are Communist!
On the post: Crazy Idea Of The Month: Allowing Patents On Mathematics
Re:
;-)
On the post: Crazy Idea Of The Month: Allowing Patents On Mathematics
Re: Re: What Bill Gates means is HE would have had to PAY THE CREATORS!
You remember the 60s, don't you? NASA, great employment, booming economy, manufacturing plants all over America, no call centers...
I don't remember companies moving overseas back then. That didn't start until the late 70s. Companies WERE starting to move west and south in America by the end of the 60s because they were trying to shed unions, but that was just more greed. It didn't have anything to do with the tax rate. Companies were focused on a skilled labor force back then. Now it is just warm bodies.
On the post: Musician Alex Day Explains How He Beat Justin Timberlake In The Charts Basically Just Via YouTube
Neat!
I loved his remake of "Lady Godiva". And "This Kiss". And "She Walks Right Through Me". Good stuff, Maynard!
It reminds me of what we used to call "street theater" back in the 60s/early 70s. Just go out there and have fun. Who cares about the plan, just go with the flow. And have fun! Fun is contagious.
I have always been struck by how much fun bands like Jeff Beck seem to have a lot of fun and really enjoy each other and their music. A lot of smiles there. Same with Eric Clapton's groups, especially the one he assembled for the Robert Johnson numbers in "Sessions for Robert J" and for the Crossroads Festival 2007. For new groups, Derek Trucks and Susan Tedeschi and band are having a blast!
Joseph Campbell used to say "Follow your bliss!" It looks like Day is doing that. More power to him.
On the post: Rather Than Fix The CFAA, House Judiciary Committee Planning To Make It Worse... Way Worse
Too late
http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm
THE MAY 4 SHOOTINGS AT KENT STATE UNIVERSITY: THE SEARCH
FOR HISTORICAL ACCURACY
BY
JERRY M. LEWIS and THOMAS R. HENSLEY
I remember walking around DC looking at all the tanks and half-tracks and soldiers on every traffic circle.
I stopped by Kent State this last summer on my way back from my son's graduation. There is a bullet hole in a sculpture on the campus from a round fired by the National Guard. What I never realized before is that the hole is in an I-beam that is approximately one quarter inch thick. It was a .30 caliber magnum round. It was used against US citizens who were also students, and some of whom were not yet adults. I think the legal age then was 21, so most of them were minors.
Those who do not fight for freedom will lose it.
On the post: Giant Pharma Company Claims Releasing Data On Drug Safety Is Illegal As It's Confidential And 'Commercially Sensitive'
Release of GM trial data
That is why Monsanto is so concerned about it. They definitely have something to hide there. They have patented their GM products as being new and nonobvious. They have gotten FDA approval based on the assertion that their GM products are substantially equivalent to existing products.
Of course they have something to hide. They have been able to keep one side of the equation secret until now. And those of us who have pointed out the apparent contradiction have been called kooks because we can't show the data.
Expect a huge fight on this matter.
On the post: Giant Pharma Company Claims Releasing Data On Drug Safety Is Illegal As It's Confidential And 'Commercially Sensitive'
Re: They shouldn't have to release their data
There are whistleblowers everywhere.
Bradley Manning is paying a huge price for letting citizens know what their government is doing in military areas.
Others have released data from banking, legislative actions, international trade agreements, even material about the **AAs.
So when is somebody going to pony up and release data from the FDA?
On the post: Giant Pharma Company Claims Releasing Data On Drug Safety Is Illegal As It's Confidential And 'Commercially Sensitive'
They shouldn't have to release their data
Tit for tat.
Former corporate FDA Validation Manager for computing
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