Greek Police Arrest Programmer Because People He Met Got Spammed?
from the doesn't-sound-good dept
Sydney Phillips writes in about her husband, Rick Downes, a Swedish programmer who was apparently arrested in Greece after some people he met (in person) received some spam -- and accused him of sending it. Rick doesn't seem like the type to spam, as Phillips notes, he "was recently nominated to the caretakers board of ENISA, the new European Union taskforce for Internet Security to be based in Heraklion, Crete." The details are a bit muddled, and it would be great if there were more to back this story up, but, in the meantime, it seemed like it was worth mentioning. The story from Phillips is apparently that Rick met some people, who later all received nearly identical spam. They immediately assumed that since they had met Rick together, and they all received the same spam, it must be his fault. The police don't seem all that helpful, telling them first not to contact a lawyer, and then telling him he needed to sign a "statement" in Greek -- despite his lack of knowledge of the language. Also, it doesn't appear Rick's actually been told what he's being charged with, which makes the whole thing that much more confusing. It would be great if someone who had more details can provide them. Of course, this isn't the first time we've heard about the Greek legal system being positively baffled by technology.
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Should Chinese Police Arrest Ghosts?
http://www.ocn.ne.jp/news/data/20051027/j051027X207.html
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Should Japanese Police Arrest Cats?
http://www.asahi.com/national/update/1027/TKY200510270223.html
[ link to this | view in chronology ]
Clever Logic!
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Re: Clever Logic!
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Not surprised
Apparently, the Greeks still feel that there are secrets surrounding their air force (no native aircraft, and no designs less than a quarter-century old) that the Turks (with their airforce - funnily enough no native aircraft, and no designs less than a quarter-century old) are burning to learn.
Yep, it's a brave new world in Athens....
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Re: Not surprised
They both sport some of the latest generation F-16s (which in Turkey's case are built to Turkey).
since 911, those planespoters would have been arested had they been in the US. And as was the case, if they were foreign nationals carrying notebooks logging large numbers of military fights, super high end photo equipment and trespassing on military bases, all of which was the case, they would have ended up with a more macabre legal oddysey than those arrested in Greece.
Laslty if you understood how modern airforces work (and Greece and Turkey have the most advanced avionics, guidence, missile defence etc in all of Europe), you would not harp on designs less 25 years old. f16's basic airframes are 25 years old, nothing esle is. moreover about 98 of US airforce airframes in servce are on designs 25 years old, and 85% are on designs over 40 years old!
lastly this case appears to be more related to drugs than to spam if you do some research. the issue is not spam per say but apparently people recieving a solicitation to buy drugs.
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Re: Not surprised
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Too True
The 'evidence' used in his arrest and the seizure of his computer is solely that three people who personally met him later received spam offering prescription drugs for sale. No, the spams didn't even _appear_ to come from him.
At least the plane spotters broke the law. Rick's 'crime' is apparently that he knows computers pretty well - so he _must_ be responsible if the crime involves computers in any way.
Arthur C. Clark said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
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Re: Not surprised
In other words, this case is about neither. It's about gross incompetence, it's about breaking EU laws flagrantly, it's about wrongful prosecution, it's about harassment (insisting one does not need a lawyer, preventing a lawyer from being present, threatening with prison if one does not sign a statement one cannot read and is not allowed to get a translator to read), it's about having 'just cause' - and it's about getting that magical computer expert to look into these wild claims before people's lives are ruined.
That's what it's about, and I should know: it's about Sydney and me.
So please do not tell us of all people what and what not it's about. We know very little; you know significantly less. We admit we only know what we say we know; you do nothing of the sort.
Thank you.
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gross incompetence
As an avid reader of Radsoft.net and Rixstep.com, I have to say how unbelievably angry I am with these events.
None of this should ever have happened. You have every right to be furious!
I have followed your career as an educator and advocate of SAFE computing, technology and security. Education that helps protect people from the dangers they are exposed to while connected to the Internet.
Your story has opened yet more questions and issues surrounding the lack of understanding by governments and the general public in these matters.
The Greek government has made a flagrant mistake here and showed us that they have no understanding of the technology involved.
Living in the US I can tell you that the so-called evidence in question would have been quickly thrown out and Rick would never have had to deal with any of this.
Those of us that understand technology and understand your positive role in this area know you are innocent. We will support you and fight this in every way we can.
The Greek government owes you an apology and a dismissal of all charges.
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Re: gross incompetence or worse
Do people who move into Greece, especially small towns, not get this sort of "tax" imposed if they don't routinely pay off the local police for protection? I'd kind of expect that, in any rural area of any country (although having grown up in parts of the USA where that's the norm, I could be too cynical). But, I do wonder.
I would seriously wonder if moving into the town without finding out who you have to pay to be left alone is the underlying mistake here.
When in Rome give unto Caesar ...
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but don't take that as a recommendation to bribe,
That's why the English came up with the idea of habeas corpus, and the USA adopted it -- as protection against police power. It was a good idea.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
How come it has a LATIN name then?
You know mate, while you PRETEND to be Romans, modern Greeks descent from them (Eastern Roman Empire - Byzantium) and our Legal system it is called "Roman Law".
In our courts, not only you have the ability to object the decision of a court, you even have the ability to object a law on the grounds that it is non-constitutional. In this case the judge CAN examine THAT law and if he finds that it is indeed against the constitution, have it dismissed and relieve you. Which of course you can't do in the UK, because this patchwork you call a legal system does not derive from a PROPER constitution, is a product or royalty and not the people, so the laws are never questioned in court by the commons.
So, next time you think that you came up with an idea, make sure that it is not older than your nation.
Also, who are you to unload crap on the Greek police, when your police killed an innocent person just because they thought him to be a terrorist?
You come and tell miserable things about a police that once they saw that the Public Attorney made a mistake and that Rick is disabled, they did not arrest him AS THEY WERE REQUIRED, but let him go?
This is the GESTAPO? Look at your guys mate!
That's the uncivilised country? Or this is the insecure country? I came to England for my graduation, and I travelled by car, because I was affraid of the trains. I travelled between TWO bomb runs who happened when you ANNOUNCED that you go for the Olympics. That's how you'll make the Olympics?
We had the Olympics and not a single nose opened. So, go preach elsewhere. Eat your Heinz beans with your fried dead fish and the mad cow steak while running for shelter away from rampant bombers in this ever-grey, depressing drizzle hell you live and let us uncivilised people feel very bad we do not share your good fortune.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
"You come and tell miserable things about a police that once they saw that the Public Attorney made a mistake and that Rick is disabled, they did not arrest him AS THEY WERE REQUIRED, but let him go?"
it seems clear that you haven't followed this story and are only responding to a single post by hank in this thread.
First of all if you want to complain and spout off about who did what to who between the UK and Greece, then go somewhere else. If you want to stay on track then read the story at rixstep.com come back and make a constructive comment.
2nd quote from Pelasgian...
"Also, who are you to unload crap on the Greek police, when your police killed an innocent person just because they thought him to be a terrorist?"
I can't begin to tell you how ignorant your statement is here, but pointing fingers doesn't solve anything.
The greek police deserve the crap they are getting here for their actions against Rick. What they did was wrong, PERIOD!
Let's stay on track here.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
Arrest = being handcuffed, taken to the police station, put to jail, stay there.
Or the moment they saw him being disabled, they decided to "arrest and release" him on the spot?
In order to be technically following the PA's orders for home search they HAD to take the computers. The thing is that they could have him "booked" too.
Give me an explanation, which maintains your view for a barbaric police, why they did not arrest him. Can you?
I mentioned the incident with the "terrorist" which was executed in the tube by the British Police, in order to demonstrate your double standards.
It is apparent that a civil case in Greece *IS* the end of the world, while having people being shot in Britain is no big deal.
And I mention these things, because indeed I watched the forum rixstep, and I found myself amused when somebody mentioned there "we could go in one of their stadiums with a stinger missile and nobody would notice".
Well, it wasn't us that had two bombs in our capital, neither was it us that killed the wrong guy in the tube, nor do our trains jump off the rails, on the platforms killing people like flies.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
Are you saying that until every problem in one's home country is solved, one is not allowed to point out a problem in another country?
That's what you seem to be saying, because whenever anyone points out a problem with Greece, you shout them down by pointing out a problem with their home country.
I think the honored tradition of 'debate' discounts this tactic as a time-waster and inflamatory.
Also, unless Greece is perfect, this rule means that you, Pelasgian, cannot point out any problems in other countries - and trust me, Greece is _NOT_ perfect.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
YOU pelasgian, maybe ME will be the next one that ll be questioned, maybe sent to court just like that.
unless pelasgian comes from the other side, where all nicknames look like "Apollo" or "Hermes"...
...they are all cops! keep in mind!
WHO ARE YOU pelasgian asking others "WHO THEY ARE"
in such a Gestapo way?
for all those who don t know.... the "WHO ARE YOU" question has been used as an ORDER during fasism in greece...
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
now they are trying to shut down the rixstep site by informing (with LIES, ...ok, their opinions) the server. bad boys! there is NO decision by any court yet, but they have already got theirs. shall i wish you good luck patriot pelasgian?
i am greek. shall i say everything is OK in greece in order not to disfame my country? shall i lie to allll others for a new police section where THERE IS NO COMPUTER PROGRAMMER WORKING or TAKING DECISSIONS?
my answer in NO.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
all you are doing is trying to disguise judgment as your opinion.
the great thing about people like you is that you are easy to understand. keep posting, keep showing us your true colors.
you are in the company of intelligent, open-minded people here. i suggest you remember this.
na and Logic,
good rebuttals and points. I know that Rick really appreciates the support.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
are about to e-mail this address: support@freeola.co.uk (abuse for rixstep)
one asks for a complete list of evidence in order to inform embassies etc.
how nice.
an online public court, constituted by young greek patriots who have suddenly decided to defend and fight for their country online.
only one question i have:
don t you guys disfame greece with what you re doing?
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
how nice.
an online public court, constituted by young greek patriots who have suddenly decided to defend and fight for their country online.
only one question i have:
don t you guys disfame greece with what you re doing?
---------------
No, I actually think not.
And I stand by Pelasgian's comments, I don't feel that all police is crooked or that there's nothing working in Greece. I don't believe that as some in those forum pages say there are no people with computer skills in Greece, infact some of the best scientists in the world are infact Greeks.
Perhaps while angry one tends to say things that shouldn't be said. And no, by no means Greece is perfect, that doesn't mean that it is as ugly as some people want to present it, or as ugly as some people will present it given the chance.
I will wish Mr. Downes good luck to his case, if he indeed is innocent he will be found innocent, he will have to present his case in a court of law tho, and by discrediting Greece, he will achieve nothing.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
infact some of the best scientists in the world are infact Greeks
---------------
of course i agree with you Aris. but i will have to add that none of them lives in greece. they all live in abroad. tell me ONLY one fact where such a scientistic success came up in greece.
...and i say that because greece IS at its primitive stage in computer technology. see all things arround: no computers at schools, no internet (since its too expensive), fear by the police, statistics for greece's usage of internet (only 30% uses it) etc.(i could really write much more. we must admit that this IS the real situation)
...and believe me, if those scientists knew that Mr. Downes was arrested in greece, for spams that didin t appear to come from him, by people who weren t computer educated (since they had an explanation given but couldn t understand...), they would NEVER support a forum that has already decided to shut down web sites, inform embassies etc., just because it is a greek forum.
research requires people to be open minded and not just patriots. one said (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20051031/0146231_F.shtml) that i disfame my country by writing here. appart form greek i am a man in this world. why should i lie?
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
they all live in abroad.
---------------
I'd give you hundreds of examples, but this would dignify your hillarious opinion by imitating its puerile discussion manners.
I just quote you for its humourous value, for the benefit of those who didn't identify this remarkable part of monty python farce, in this otherwise total waste of bandwidth and disk space that you call a LOGICAL reply.
Emphasis on the *ALL*.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
all you are doing is trying to disguise judgment as your opinion.
---------------
Still better than trying to disguise morronity as intellectual reasoning.
-----quote-----
the great thing about people like you is that you are easy to understand. keep posting, keep showing us your true colors.
---------------
I knew that one way or another we would come to the "people like you" part. But of course, I AM the fascist so ...
-----quote-----
you are in the company of intelligent, open-minded people here. i suggest you remember this.
---------------
How could one ever forget this!
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SUBJECT: OUR OLD FRIEND PELASGIAN
TO: All CIA, Surete, and MI6 agents in the field in the Athens area, in particular 'Robert', 'Antoine', 'Andre', and 'Graham'.
AUTHENTICATE: Xyr2156 225ABAC RED ALPHA ALPHA BRAVO
SUBJECT: OUR OLD FRIEND PELASGIAN
** MESSAGE BEGIN **
** MESSAGE LINE 1 ** PLEASE REOPEN YOUR DOSSIERS ON THIS INDIVIDUAL IMMEDIATELY.
** MESSAGE LINE 2 ** ALSO, OUR RECORDS SHOW HE IS NOT ELIGIBLE FOR RELEASE FROM HIS PSYCHIATRIC SECURE FACILITY BEFORE DECEMBER 2007.
** MESSAGE LINE 3 ** PLEASE INVESTIGATE WHAT HAS HAPPENED, AND WHY AND HOW IT HAS HAPPENED.
** MESSAGE LINE 4 ** MAINTAIN CONTACT THROUGH THE USUAL CHANNELS.
** MESSAGE END **
Max
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
I AM the fascist so ...
---------------
you re not!
you re just living it. and maybe YOU will be the next victim.
stand up and fight for the REAL case, don t get involved into any "go_greece or against_greece" discussion.
you MUST understand!!! this is not about greece. if those people hated greece they wouldn t be living here. this is about f..ing old minds who decide for educated people's lives.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
1. the patriots located here: http://www.adslgr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24710&page=7
were about to e-mail this address: support@freeola.co.uk (abuse for rixstep)
They may have had a success!
2. the "right" people have approached Rick and/or Sydney and said:
"put it down. Once the letter to Mr. Karamanlis is disappeared, we have a solution for you. Or else... " ;)
3. police's threat:
"put it down or else we !@##$@* you..."
Does anyone knows what happened? Please post.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
And frankly, a man who, int he year 2005 posts this in his weblog :
2005-11-30 17:34
Sydney and I just discovered (yes) that you can put twelve hours MP3 music on a CD. Oh cool. Why waste a complete CD for a single 12 track collection? Exactly.
is a bit funny when he tries to pass himself as a "computer security expert".
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
for all those who don t know.... the "WHO ARE YOU" question has been used as an ORDER during fasism in greece...
---------------
I didn't know about that, but I know for fact that people who make comments as the above, during times of fascism and democracy alike, were considered mentally challenged.
The good news is that they could use their special circumstances in the process of a legal battle, in order to relieved from accusations.
However, if comments of this fashion are ever made in the process of a trial Greece, I am absolutely sure that they will receive the sympathy of the Judge.
Comments like: "are you under any heavy medication" (off the record of course) might not be entirely avoided though.
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Re: but don't take that as a recommendation to bri
Are you saying that until every problem in one's home country is solved, one is not allowed to point out a problem in another country?
---------------
Actually no, I don't.
-----quote-----
That's what you seem to be saying, because whenever anyone points out a problem with Greece, you shout them down by pointing out a problem with their home country.
---------------
Read my messages again, and you will figure it out, eventually (I hope!)
Hint: try the "double standards" part first.
-----Quote-----
Also, unless Greece is perfect, this rule means that you, Pelasgian, cannot point out any problems in other countries - and trust me, Greece is _NOT_ perfect.
---------------
I never claimed that Greece is perfect, but neither is any country on the face of the Earth. This includes the country where "honour" was subjected to drastic cuts, i.e. being spelled as "honor", like "horror".
Perfect does not exist! It is an idea within a platonic mindframe. So, I propose that some people here drop the "bossy", arrogant and pretentious "authoring" style, a style that implies that THEY live in a "perfect" society, and focus on the case ITSELF, without personal judgements on everything tangential to this case.
Starting from one incident and demonstrating EMPATHY on everything related to Greece and Greeks in ways that spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) through a highly public medium will be answered though; here and elsewhere.
Not because I am an ultra-nationalistic fascist "boy" as some people said here, but because this is unfair, illogical, unethical, illegal and it affects me personally.
If you have a problem at home or at work, you don't kick cats and dogs on the street. And that's exactly the case here: somebody CLAIMED that he was harassed by the Greek authorities and started the hysterics about EVERYTHING Greek.
Suddently a mob with tar and feathers was assembled and a group of people, who apparently have nothing more important to do, gathered and gave their "scientific" expertise on everything Greek, describing it with the darkest colours.
The comments and the attitude here remind me of an old joke:
While driving his car, a driver listens to the radio the breaking news: "caution to all drivers using Academias Avenue: a lunatic is driving the wrong way, i.e. left ;-), try to avoid him"
And the guy thinks to himself "it's not one, it's thousands!".
That's the case here. EVERYONE in Greece, according to a person who has trouble with the authorities, is corrupt: The police officers, the judges, the politicians, the neighbourghs, those who rent cars, those who let houses, the tavern keepers, ENISA, the Prime Minister, everything.
And I wonder, how people that claim to be logical and reasonable, and politically corrent and whatever else (defenders of the crown, protectors of faith et.c) DO NOT SEE THAT.
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Re: Not surprised
Which Rick Downes fas NOTHING TO DO WITH!
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Correct, Luke!
They don't even need that. Yes, there are laws, and yes, this is the EU - which made us feel secure - but the seamy side is they don't respect the EU and if the EU chastise them, they just ignore it.
Greece was recently ranked as #46 amongst the most corrupt governments in the world. That doesn't sound high, but believe me: it's not low either.
As 'evidence' the police had one letter I'd sent to a lady: this was genuinely my correspondence from a Yahoo! account.
They had two other letters off the 'acnielsen.com' domain.
There were no full headers; the police didn't even know what they were looking at and did not even understand the significance of the four fields for 'From', 'To', 'Subject', and 'Date'. They had no idea whatsoever what they were looking at.
My letter was dated early February of this year. One of the spam letters was dated 12 October. We have not communicated with this lady in over four months.
She took my genuine letter and set the spam letter from acnielsen.com beside it for the police and said 'see? he sent this to me'.
I'm serious: that's how bizarre this is.
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URL and Translation
This is the only way they publish the article. (Great web design, what?)
The download is 150 KB; the article is in the middle; Sydney has a translation published at the following URL.
<http://www.dotatdot.co.uk/clix/viewtopic.php?p=70>
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re: this whole Rick Downes story
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Factual correction/Re: this whole Rick Downes stor
may I correct two things: Rick Downes has neither affiliation nor any links to ENISA. Secondly, there is no "caretaker board" or "task force", as various Internet sources write. The factual mistake in this also tells a little bit about the low level of correctness and source control for validation in this piece of news. Which is, in particular, important at Internet. Consequently, The Register has now taken away the part of the text refering to ENISA.
Finally, ENISA is not involved in the alleged Greek judicial proceedings.
Yours sincerly,
Ulf Bergstr�m
Press and Communications Officer of ENISA.
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Re: Factual correction
I feel a little uneasy and needing to respond because the "factual correction" and the stipulation of some "low level of correctness" seems to deny the seriousness of the case in general, so here's what I'd like to have mentioned as well:
Concerning "this whole story" in general, it seems the ZDNet article is more thorough in its "source control for verification" - they had many of the things (like the arrest indeed being one (and not a mistake of translation), the nature of the charge and the seizure of the computer) confirmed by a police spokesperson, and have backed up Downes' credibility by a couple of links, too. Only concerning the strength or weakness of the evidence (and concerning what has happened in the questioning/seizure) the police did of course not comment so here's where we have to rely on Downes' claim. Which I do readily.
I think it is understandable that ENISA does not want to publicly state an opinion on the case, but my hope is that they see the scandal it would mean for their geographical, social and political context if what Downes claims is true after all, and that they make this a matter of their not-so-public-then concern as well.
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Re: Factual correction
sorry for not getting back to you before.
Yes, I do indeed only correct those two things that touched upon ENISA and were wrong. They were consequently also corrected by the Register. Any other matters, right or wrong, is not in our scope. ENISA is not involved in any criminal justice affairs, so you are quite right about why we do not state an opinion on any (!) criminal case. It is very clear in our EU-regulation that criminal law is matter for national member states. So we have no reason and more importantly, no right to comment anything on that, regardless of where a IT-crime, committed or not, takes place in the EU. It is only up to the Member States.
"The low level of correctness" referred only to the mentioned errors and that a journalist always should check facts from two sources. And you all know that the Internet has low barriers for facutal errors, so there is particular reasons to check with the original sources. In our case, we do exist on the web, so any journalist could easily find, contact us and checked out these factual errors out about the alleged affiliation. And also find out that what we do have is a "Management Board" and a "Permanent Stakeholders Group". No task force.
Yours sincerly,
Ulf Bergstrom
Dear all,
may I correct two things: Rick Downes has neither affiliation nor any links to ENISA. Secondly, there is no "caretaker board" or "task force", as various Internet sources write. The factual mistake in this also tells a little bit about the low level of correctness and source control for validation in this piece of news. Which is, in particular, important at Internet. Consequently, The Register has now taken away the part of the text refering to ENISA.
Finally, ENISA is not involved in the alleged Greek judicial proceedings.
Yours sincerly,
Ulf Bergstr�m
Press and Communications Officer of ENISA.
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Re: Factual correction
> sorry for not getting back to you before.
Thank you for getting back at all. I for one wasn't sure this would be a ground where a communication with you could be established ;)
> Yes, I do indeed only correct those two things that touched upon ENISA and were wrong. They were consequently also corrected by the Register.
Good. It's better that this is corrected, and of course you've been right in doing so. Not that I would be in the position of a judge over this, but I can express my agreement with you there nonetheless I hope.
> "The low level of correctness" referred only to the mentioned errors and that a journalist always should check facts from two sources. And you all know that the Internet has low barriers for facutal errors, so there is particular reasons to check with the original sources. In our case, we do exist on the web, so any journalist could easily find, contact us and checked out these factual errors out about the alleged affiliation.
I agree with you there, I only want to point you to the fact that I *did* write to you on Oct 31st, two days before the Register article was published. This piece of news here at the top (TechDirt) was referenced in my mail, as was Mr. Downes' contact address. Okay, I'm not a journalist, but maybe you could have helped to avoid many misunderstandings if you had intervened earlier.
Now, to the matter at hand, I don't go along too easily:
> Any other matters, right or wrong, is not in our scope.
> ENISA is not involved in any criminal justice affairs, so you are quite right about why we do not state an opinion on any (!) criminal case. It is very clear in our EU-regulation that criminal law is matter for national member states. So we have no reason and more importantly, no right to comment anything on that, regardless of where a IT-crime, committed or not, takes place in the EU. It is only up to the Member States.
I agree to some extent. Namely insofar as public statements about ongoing investigations are concerned. These should of course not be expected.
However, I think it is evident that "Network and Information Security" can not be dealt with if one keeps out of everything as soon as criminal investigations and forensics, or, in other words, matters of prosecution and trials come into play. There are other aspects of 'NIS' as well (like e.g. secure application/OS development or raising awareness, two of Mr. Downes pet subjects, BTW), but keeping away from IT crime amounts to crippling the agency's objectives.
In a similar vein, see e.g. page 3 of ENISA's work programme 2005 at http://www.enisa.eu.int/doc/pdf/management_board/decisions/work_programme_2005.pdf:
> However, securing modern networks is not
limited to technical options. It involves legal and policy issues, requires awareness and promotion of best practices, and it is very much dependent on the improved cooperation and information exchange among all stakeholders: from public to private sector organisations, as well as from judicial to law enforcement agencies and services of the Members States.
Of course, the autonomy of the respective national prosecution and jurisdiction must be respected, but this is taken care of in the way that ENISA's activities are projected anyway:
From http://www.enisa.eu.int/about/context/index_en.htm:
> The Agency was set up to enhance the capability of [...] the Member States [...] to prevent, address and respond to network and information security problems.
Now, if either the allegations made to Mr. Downes (drug sales by unsolicited email) are true or false, there is the capability of the greek authorities to adress and respond to network and information security problems (in this case a suspected spammer/internet dealer operating from within their area of responsibility) at issue. Either the resp. state's capability is sufficient or it isn't - but it's an affair that is bound to deserve your attention, and even more so, since the person suspected of those crimes is an IT expert (which either way should present special challenges for the greek authorities' capabilites of addressing and responding etc.), even more so since this affair is taking place in a country which ... okay, let's try to play it cool ... is at least not represented in Interpol's "European Working Party on Information Technology Crime" (http://www.interpol.org/Public/TechnologyCrime/WorkingParties/Default.asp#europa), and since the case is handled in such a way that presently it seems (from what I've been told) that not even the involved police force knows much, if anything, about the "Athens computer lab" where the seized computer is supposedly being examined now, and finally even more so since it is all happening in front of your door!
The mentioned ENISA page gives more detail on what ENISA could do:
> the Agency�s tasks will be focused on:
> - Advising and assisting [...] the Member States on information security [...]. [The work programme says assistance needs to be called for, advice doesn't. p.4]
> - Collecting and analysing data on security incidents in Europe and emerging risks;
> - [...]
> - Awareness-raising and co-operation between different actors in the information security field, notably by developing public / private partnerships with industry in this field.
Three out of four activities that ENISA says it's focusing on could be deployed in the present case, which isn't so bad, is it?
(The work programme lists 6 operational functions, 4 of which would be applicable, but everyone will have to look these up him-/herself ;)
So, I hope to have shown that the case in question falls in your scope and that you have means and activities projected which could by deployed in it.
Of course, I know that ENISA is also still in the process of being consolidated itself and may have other priorities, but IMHO to decline from getting involved with it - when you're asked to get involved by or on behalf of a local, european IT SME - would require a more substantial consideration. You don't have to share it, but I think I am founded to expect you to effectuate such a consideration.
...And then, on my journey through the ENISA website, I saw this:
From ENISA's What's New Page:
> The Swedish Emergency Management Agency (SEMA) is visiting ENISA�s premises in Crete 10 November.
I'm not sure SEMA has been contacted in this case - not by me at any rate. But if they've been to your place and the disputed arrest of a Swedish citizen who is an IT expert just around the corner wasn't mentioned at all, then I would think this to be a dramatic failure of the involved parties. This would namely reinforce all the prejudices one might have about EU bodies and agencies being just parts of some bureaucracy and having cut off all roots to 'RL' - to 'R'eal 'L'ife, in this case of people literally next door having immense problems in an area where one is internationally showing off one's expertise.
Again, I don't expect a statement on this, but I would expect "raised awareness" and attention.
... And sometimes it would be a good, meaning noble and diplomacy-wise non-suspicious, sign to just say - "Yes, it has our attention."
best regards,
Andreas Wagner
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Re: Factual correction/this whole Rick Downes stor
And as regards the expression "task force," the following is quoted from the Daily Notebook of the European Parliament dated 19-11-2003:
"The European Network and Information Security Agency has the task of contributing to a high level of network and information security within the Community and of developing a culture of network and information security for the benefit of citizens, consumers, businesses and public sector organisations in the European Union, thus contributing to the proper functioning of the internal market."
That, in any language, makes ENISA a task force. Or don't you understand English?
How did you get your PR job anyway? You certainly can't spell or do punctuation properly. You allow your own personal opinions to colour what should be a neutral post on behalf of your employer, an EU body ultimately responsible to EU taxpayers. And you certainly don't appear to know anything about ENISA's early days.
I can see now why Mr. Downes was so unimpressed with what he found at ENISA that he declined to apply for the position for which he had been nominated.
Kind regards.
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Re: Factual correction/this whole Rick Downes stor
I believe there are 20 official languages of the EU, presently. So, of course, it is correct that there may be misunderstandings when translating in between languages. But this was written in English. So I can not see why is should be so difficult to get it right. And the Register, as others corrected it afterwards, as any media would correct a mistake.
Moreover, I refer to an answer above in the replies:
"that journalist always should check facts from two sources. In our case, we do exist on the web, so any journalist could easily find, contact us and checked out factual errors out about the alleged affiliation. And also find out that what we do have is a "Management Board" and a "Permanent Stakeholders Group". No task force."
In my mind, you are quite wrong about the "task force". There is infact no task force. We're an Agency of the EU. Not a task force. If we were -well, we would have been called a Task Force. But we're called an Agency. We have tasks however.
That's how I read it and that is what we are called.
The point that I underline is:
there are neither affiliation, nor any links to ENISA, and Mr Downes.
As for my job, I applied for it and was found to be the most suitable one, in competition with many other candidates.
English is not my native language, so I do not claim to master it fully. Consequently, please excuse any spelling or punctuation mistakes of mine.
Yours sincerly,
Ulf Bergstrom
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Re: this whole Rick Downes story
"Also it would be much better if you did have the other side of the story, don't you think? Because from what I read this is the side of this person's girlfriend (or whatever)."
Please read further before posting. All you are doing is casting speculation and doubt with no facts to support your opinion. And we are trying to help an innocent man here.
Rixstep.com is where you should go.
As far as "the other side of the story"... this has clearly been covered. What Rick is dealing with is a local corrupt police group (similar to a small mafia-like faction) that has power with impunity to claim whatever they wish. Ask anyone that lives in this area of Greece and they will attest to this. The danger is real and citizens can be locked up for months with no proof or due process if that's what the local police want.
"The greek police has been very successful lately in taking down electronic crimes, child pornography etc,"
If you could provide proof for this claim I would be impressed.
Even if this statement were true it still does not lend any credibility to the Greek police side of this story nor does it mean that Rick Downes is guilty.
"I do believe that if they have arrested him, there is probably a reason."
Yes, there is. And it has nothing to do with facts or proof. It is either about a payoff to the local police or a vendetta from another citizen against Rick and Sydney. In this part of the world, if you are "in with the police" you can cause serious trouble for someone else just by asking for it to be done.
I certainly hope that you never have the opportunity to live in a "police state" but corruption and reason have little to do with justice and proof.
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Re: this whole Rick Downes story
http://rhizome.org/thread.rhiz?thread=16472&page=1#31413
or try this if the above doesnt work:
http://www.fotiou.net/DWG_press.html
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Re: this whole Rick Downes story
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Re: this whole Rick Downes story
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About Rick Downes Case and EINSA
I quote
"An earlier version of this article said Downes had been nominated to the caretaker board of EINSA, the new European taskforce for Internet security. While Downes was recommended to the board, he never formally applied, and therefore has no formal links with the organization. We are happy to clarify this point."
As you may realise that is NOT the same info to the one you provide and is actually QUITE different. He never applied and therefore was rejected.
Thank you.
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Re: About Rick Downes Case and EINSA
Mr. Routis, it simply is not possible to be rejected for a job if you have not applied for it in the first place. For that would mean that you, Mr. Routis, have been rejected by every single company in the world to which you have never applied for a job.
However, given your logic skills, I would not be at all surprised to learn that you have been rejected by every single company to which you HAVE applied.
Kind regards.
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Re: About Rick Downes Case and EINSA
"However, given your logic skills, I would not be at all surprised to learn that you have been rejected by every single company to which you HAVE applied."
Actually, Mr. Routis, I have good news for you. There is one organisation where such a logic deficiency would not be any impediment at all - the Greek police force.
Go for it!
Kind regards.
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Re: About Rick Downes Case and EINSA
"He never applied and therefore was rejected."
Not only is your logic incorrect, but I also now question your intentions here.
You cannot be rejected for something you never applied for. PERIOD.
It appears that you are only trying to hurt Rick Downes by posting FUD.
There are no positive reasons for any of your statements here and no facts to support them.
Please stop.
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Re: About Rick Downes Case and EINSA
"He never applied, and therefore THE RECOMMENDATION WAS IGNORED."
(which is something quite different from Downes being rejected, true.)
Let's use the "principle" of charity, tag it as translation error (like 'caretaker's board') and forget about it.
(The point was that the clarification on this issue is not yet reflected in the initial posting. And there I'd say, it becomes clear from the rest of the discusion - no need to revise it (also in order not to distort the context of the former contributions.))
Andreas
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Re: About Rick Downes Case and EINSA
Agreed.
Back on track.
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Greek are for sure retardet
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How ridiculous
One cannot bear these fish eyed oafs contemptously snorting at everything Greek. We cannot live while these grey-green slugs are alive.
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helloooooooooooooooo
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