RIAA Will Drop Cases If You Point Out That An IP Address Isn't A Person
from the and-so-it-goes dept
For years, the RIAA has claimed that having the IP address of a computer that has shared unauthorized files is the equivalent of having the evidence of who was actually sharing files. That, of course, is false. The IP address simply can help you know who paid for the internet access, but not who was using what computer on a network. In fact, this even had some people suggesting that, if you want to win a lawsuit from the RIAA, you're best off opening up your WiFi network to neighbors. It seems like this strategy might actually be working. Earlier this month the inability to prove who actually did the file sharing caused the RIAA to drop a case in Oklahoma and now it looks like the same defense has worked in a California case as well. In both cases, though, as soon as the RIAA realized the person was using this defense, they dropped the case, rather than lose it and set a precedent showing they really don't have the unequivocal evidence they claim they do. The RIAA certainly has the legal right to go after people, even if it simply ends up pissing off their best fans and driving people to spend their money on other forms of entertainment -- but, if they want to do so, they should at least have legitimate evidence. It's good to see that some are finally pointing out how flimsy the evidence really is.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Is the tide turning?
Damn, I hope so.
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Re: Is the tide turning?
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heres 1 for phreakers
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Ah! I see.
tube leads to but you can't really know who's
waiting at the other end sopping up all the
internets.
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Re: Ah! I see.
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Re: Ah! I see.
An ip adress can also be dynamic, meaning that whenever you log on to the internet a server passes your computer or router a new ip. Meaning that you never have the same adress. I'm pretty sure isp's can find out which computer actually had the ip adress in question, at any given time though.
I guess one could also compare it to a license plate, but you get a new one every time you start your car. And you really can't be held responsible if someone steals your car and uses it for something illegal.
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tubes
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Re: tubes
No, really this is getting crazy. I think torrenting is a great way to share a file with a friend, especially if your email box is too small to send it. The only risk with uploading your own personal stuff to the free trackers is that you have to share it with everyone. I don't know how interesting 50 mb of family photos/video snips would be to complete strangers, but it is a great way of sharing files online. Kinda scary too!
fun website joygoround
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Haha
What's even better is I downloaded 100 songs and sent a list of those files to the RIAA myself and said "So sue me, oh wait. I AM CANADIAN!"
Anyways, back on topic. I'm glad people are doing this, and hopefuly it will just make the RIAA FUCK OFF That's my two cents.
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First Metallica, now the RIAA...
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Re: First Metallica, now the RIAA...
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Re: Re: First Metallica, now the RIAA...
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Re:
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Re: RIAA Dropping
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What the RIAA has to prove vs. What the FBI has to
Law enforcement indcits people under criminal law, so in court they have to prove that you're the guy with the kiddie pron beyond a reasonable doubt. However, police and the FBI only need "probable cause" to believe that you might have pron in your home in order to get a search warrant. In other words, they only need a hint that you might have pron in order to bust down your door and take all your hard disks, CDs, USB keys, etc. If they discover anything on them that's bad, they easily can show your possession beyond a reasonable doubt.
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WiFi
global WiFi coverage, you can open yours for free or for fee
http://en.fon.com/
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Avoid them finding the IP in the first place
I just wonder about the demographics of those found by the RIAA - are most AOL users that bought their PC at Wal-Mart?
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Re: Avoid them finding the IP in the first place
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Re: Re: Avoid them finding the IP in the first pla
I forget the link, sorry. Can anyone else factcheck that?
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So that's what that was
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See it does not take a rocket scientist to be a la
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demographics
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Screwed my neighbors
EL OH EL
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Re: Screwed my neighbors
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Still on the hook
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Re: Still on the hook
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Re: Screwed my neighbors
roflcopters and such :P
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Re:
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Re:
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RE:Still on the hook
FYI: If you want to use this as a defence, install a wifi, but make sure you have at least 2 computers in your house that access it. Otherwise it looks like you are using wifi to "get you off the hook".
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RE:Still on the hook
FYI: If you want to use this as a defence, install a wifi, but make sure you have at least 2 computers in your house that access it. Otherwise it looks like you are using wifi to "get you off the hook".
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Re: RE:Still on the hook
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Re: Re: RE:Still on the hook
What I was trying to say that if you leave your wireless router open and unsecure so your neighbours or anyone crusing by can access it, that would most likely be against the terms of service.
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Re: Re: Re: RE:Still on the hook
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omgkebabs
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why
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Re: why
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Sweet
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Re: Sweet
utorrent at a lan
they cant catch u useing torrents anyways
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Re: Re: Sweet
The RIAA Just cruises the torrent sites looking for infringing sounding names, starts downloading them and log every IP they peer with.
They may not catch all of the people on that torrent but in time they can get a significant number of them.
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Re: Re: Re: Sweet
They would have to provide torrents of their copyrighted works with the intent of distributing them to people who wanted them... So how is it illegal to obtain copyrighted material direct form the copyright owner?
Downloading music is not now, nor has it ever been illegal.
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Re: Re: Sweet
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Re: Re: Sweet
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Re: Re: Sweet
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Re: Re: Sweet
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Re: Sweet
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wish I had held out
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wish I had held out
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Could this risk worse
http://fishnchippapers.typepad.com/tomorrow_fish_n_chip_pape/2006/07/oh_dear_the_thi.html
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tubes by s
How come no one uses this defence?
Say I compress the hell out of a movie and it comes out as "1kb MPEG10" (shutup, it's theoretical).
Tthat's NOT going to look like the original friends!
Trading in original formats should be illegal,
Prosecuting people for trading deformed lower quality bootlegs of the original? why is that illegal for crissakes.
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Just think how many routers would get returned as broken if they came wep enabled with a default key and forced the average computer user to learn how to configure and use it.
As a matter of fact, I used to have Verizon DSL and the wireless router/modem combo they sent me came with encryption disabled, so I don't see how it can be against their TOS...
Even if it were, I would rather get a slap on the wrist from my ISP for violationg the TOS, than a lawsuit from the RIAA without any loopholes to wriggle through...
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Re:
I'd say too bad for them then. People don't just hand some the keys to a car or plane and say go for a drive or fly anytime the want, or hand someone a gun and let them out on the firing range -without making sure they know how to properly use those deivces. You don't hand someone a pair of fins and toss them in the water without making sure they know how to swim. If people don't know how to use computer equiptment properly, they don't need to be using it. Plain and simple
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Re: Re:
Your argument's weak. Nobody's going to require parents to undergo "Content Filtering for the Home" classes before handing them the remote to their kid's new Mickey Mouse TV... (Too bad, 'cause pr0n looks so weird between those big round ears...)
There's no competence test before purchasing a blender or lawnmower, and both things are potentially dangerous. Hell, when I bought my house, nobody told me how to safely repair a gutter, unclog a garbage disposal, ignite a pilot light, or not fall out of upstairs windows. Those bastards! Or maybe I shouldn't be allowed to live among civilized society?
So let's go over the list:Driving a car? Privelege. Test required.
Flying a kite? A Right. No test.
Watching TV? A Right. Again, no training required.
Climbing a mountain? No test required, but possibly foolish.
Owning/Operating a computer? HOLY CRAP SEND IN l33t g33k p0L1c3! (AOL users are obviously exempt from this policy)
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Re: Re:
That's such an ignorant statement I can't believe anyone actually typed it.
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Re:
so anyone can see it, but without the key they can't access it. traffic isn't encrypted by default, but you can if you want.
my cheap little wifi dongle for the desktop found three other networks in range, all secured. dunno if its a uk thing but i reckon over here people are either
a, clued up
or
b, its a default setting.
I know where my money is since i've got a parents wifi to configure ina few days...
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Responsibility..
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Re: Responsibility..
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Re: Responsibility..
If you invite someone over to your house for a party and that person kills another partygoer at your house without you knowledge, who is the guilty party?
I'm not an attorney, but I believe most jurors believe the actual person that commited the murder is the guilty party.
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Re: Re: Responsibility..
Likewise, your computer, router, cables, etc. that you own or use which are processing the data of a stolen music file (or whatever) places you in possession of stolen property.
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Re: Re: Re: Responsibility..
How do they prove that you KNOW your visitor will use it?
Any sane 'normal' person wouldn't, and most people would assume their visitors are sane and 'normal' before inviting them to a party.
They would have to prove there was prior knowledge of a real danger at which point:
a) you aren't an accessory, you are irresponsible and
b) it becomes a local health authority issue cos people who like knives shouldn't be free to attend parties or any other situation where they might be able to get dangers weapons.
On the other hand, if you took Joe from the local nut house specifically for your party knowing that he had tried to kill bob before, then you have a problem.
And besides, in the UK at least, if your car gets a speeding ticket and you ask for the photo evidence to try and identify the driver, if the photo is crap they will drop charges.
If the photo clearly identifies the driver then you get done for not identifying the driver. Seperate issue covered by UK law. They will not 'normally' press charges if their photo is crap as their evidence should have been better and it isn't sensible to make someone log all use of their car, ever.
I am guessing there is no UK statute that covers identifying the users of your ip. As such they have no fallback if they can't prove you were the computer user (which they can't). This should even work with non-wifi as you just say you let friends/family use your computer whenever they like.
This might prove false, but I would love to see them contest a case in court where someone with a "straight out of the box" router said I don't know who was using my ip, I used the hardware as it came and have very little computer knowledge.
Do you think a judge or jury would convict someone of not being a techie? Shouldn't the hardware vendor and ISP take some responsibility for making sure the user of the products are aware of the risks? Don't shops that sell alcohol to people underage get into trouble? (And it is actually illegal to sell alcohol to underage customers, big shiny letters in some law book. Not so with IT stuff).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Responsibility..
I have a friend that downloaded some real old gameboy pokemon emulated game and got a letter from their isp... bla bla
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Re: Re: Re: Responsibility..
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Re: Responsibility..
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Re: Responsibility..
Basically, they can scream that a crime was committed using YOUR connection, but can't prove YOU had any involvement in the crime yourself.
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Even with people fighting back and winning the RIAA still won't give up suing people. The RIAA figures there are enough dumb people out there who will give in rather than fight back.
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This can't be true
The RIAA lost their poof?
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WTH??
You, the person paying for the broadband access, are and should be legally responsible for what happens over that connection. Just as you're responsible for what you children do. Just as you're responsible for what your dog does if he gets out of the yard. Just as you're responsible for the mail carrier if he/she slips on a patch of ice on your sidewalk. Just because the RIAA's using lowdown tactic's to sue, does not mean you are no longer responsible.
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Re:
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Re: @bob
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The aren't sueing for the money
You should bear in mind that the only reason for the RIAA's existance is to encourage people not to break the law. And I tend to agree with Johnny you are responsible for what goes on on your internet connection.
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Re: The aren't sueing for the money
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Re: Re: The aren't sueing for the money
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Re: The aren't sueing for the money
BTW, can you go "service" Metallica on your way back to headquarters?
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What have I Learned?
Don't let anyone leach your connection or you'll get smacked with a suit when they P2P. Lock down your wireless... okay, check.
When I want to download music... or other goodies, fake my MAC, then leach from some dumb user's wireless... okay, check and check.
Consider using some international proxy to aid in protecting that dumb user so I can keep on leaching and not have to choose another dumb user later (although there seems to always be at least a handful.)
Sounds good to me... anything I'm missing?
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Just wait until
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Don't Buy It?
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lets look at history, DirectTV sued thousands of people who bought hardware that could be used in Sat signal descrambling. Well they sent out lawsuit paperwork to each person who appeared as a customer for the company they raided. Every single one of the suits (except the people who gave up to easily and settled) was dropped right away. DirectTV couldn't prove that you actually used the equipment for stealign signals, its like charging someone with murder if they just buy a gun. Yes it can be used for that but prove that I did it. Just because my IP was seen downloading music doesn't mean that it was me, prove it was.
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Spend their money on some other form?
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In any case, there are legally downloadable material off the Internet. Until you find more legal downloads that suit your taste, just try to keep away from activities that could imply you were doing something that RIAA could sue you for.
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UK not clued up.
Encrypted networks aren't default with many UK ISP's and there aren't any more clued up people in the UK IMHO.
I've walked up and down two streets near me a couple of weeks ago in Central London and seen 46 (yes forty six, not a typo) unsecured networks with my PDA scanner. Granted I didn't test them for MAC filtering or if they have an Internet gateway, but that's still a big number.
Unfortunately, you can't expect users to know how to setup their wi-fi router properly, and really ALL routers should come with the default of needing a key.Unfortunately even this simply gives the illusion of security as WEP is an easily breakable encryption standard these days. So unless you are an uber-geek with a penchant for security, implementing filtering, VPN's and multiple layers of encryption then _no-one's_ Wi-fi point is secure anyway.
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Not so typical
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ummmm
maybe it was an ISP employee who used your IP address when you weren't looking and then switched the information back to look like it was you!
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riaa
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Unforseen Consequences
That way, they'll be able to say that an IP address _IS_ a person.
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o really. proxy server that runs specialized software you control remotely, it downloads shit, and then sends the files to you? Or just a proxy server configured to change your ip address in any packet it transmits (except if they're returning to you).
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haha haha. so they check any laptop that might have been able to wirelessly log on to your connection? they'll knock on your neighbor's door a mile away (because its possible there was some signal funneling going on to carry the waves through the invisible tubes in the air)
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Obfuscator != protection
Don't be niave. Any information that is routed can be traced. The more resources the tracer has, the less you can count on remaining undetected.
On the Internet, everyone knows you are a dog and that you are neutered.
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Getting around Proof
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Re: Getting around Proof
The most secure means of destroying the data is a complete destruction of the drive, however. The best way to accomplish this is through melting it, as it not only deforms the platters into an unrecognizable, unreadable mass, but the extreme heat also causes the platters to lose all magnetic resonance. Thermite is one fast way to do it, although messy and dangerous. Unless you can encase your drive bay in some thick cerramics, this is probably out of the question, although its still the best "Oh shit, they're here!" method available, and its fairly cheap to set up. If you have the time, drop your drive into a forge.
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Re: Re: Getting around Proof
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Re: Getting around Proof
I imagine that would kinda' suck when the Pizza Guy shows up.
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Responsability
If I leave my WiFi open, it is probable that people may use it to check email and surf the web, it is possible that they are going to make terroristic threats or download kiddy p0rn over my connection.
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CashCrate
http://urlcut.com/.-cxc-
You get money for filling out surveys, usually $1 each, but they add up. There are also free trials for more than $10 each. The surveys are really easy and only take a couple minutes. Each month they send u a real check in the mail for your earnings. This site is 100% legit. You can check the forums for proof of payment. Its just a good way to make some extra cash.
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Re: CashCrate
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Re: CashCrate
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Re: CashCrate
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Re: CashCrate
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Re: CashCrate
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Unsecured WIFI and ISP's
ok .. now isn't the week or so you'll spend looking for a new ISP worth it to not get sued?
/ rince repeat, wipe hands on pants.
// Just Legally compressed Spaceballs: the Movie..
///Ohh YEAH! SLASHIES!
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Open Wifi
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All your Internets belong to the RIAA
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new idea
if you have a cd collection, all you have to do is lend them all out to your friends! no internet needed, which means no data transferred where the riaa can find it!
...well, unless you give a cd to one of THEM...
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whats the deal then, if for say, like me, your account does not have a permanent fixed IP, but rather is assigned a free one upon connection?
Does the ISP have a log of what IPs were assigned to which accounts at whatever times and dates??
cuz if not.... well..... aint a problem is there?
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Re: Fuck The RIAA
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It's not that easy
Usually the RIAA will not drop its case even though they know the defendant did not do anything.
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What's this "MY IP" stuff?
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Re: What's this "MY IP" stuff?
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Re: What's this "MY IP" stuff?
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how do I find out if someone had a will
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bobhasabush
Deserve to get sued you should be a cop. SHut your COCK GARAGE BOB! and fuk paying for music its just as bad as paying for gas.. The riaa and oil companys should join forces to create a super douche team.
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Hilarious
If you can't spell, you don't need to be posting comments. But bad spelling is rampant. Go figure.
The RIAA will call you a thief if you listen to their tunes. They'll sue you if you share them. They'll install spyware if you buy them.
Listen to something else. Download at will. Share if you want because the RIAA members are the only ones suing people. Problem solved.
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WEP
This is such a stupid statement. When I purchase hardware I own it. I can do with it what I want. Imagine if you purchased a television and were forced to input an encryption key to operate it. No one would do it. If I choose not to secure my wireless it is my business. I am no more responsible for the person using my wifi than I would be if someone used my telephone to arrange illegal drug shipments. So stupid.
The real problem is that people are sick of the RIAA and their heavy handed tactics. In Canada it is legal to download MP3's. There is a $25 tax on MP3 players that goes to the artists.
Note in Canada we also have the right to backup or copy protected media (CD's/DVD's etc). We can legally crack the copy protection to make backups of media we legally purchased! So.. exactly where is the "Land of the Free"?
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Re: WEP
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WEP
Just want to point out that my last statement is not meant as a negative slant on the US. It is meant quite strongly as a negative slam on the RIAA and the DMCA! The US, until recently, has always been the most "free" country there is. These last few years your rights have been slowly stripped away. It is very sad. You've got a great country which is slowly being poisoned by big business.
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Re: WEP
Except for all the others.
That's why we have the most laws and most prisoners of all countries.
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When was the last time a court issued a search warrant against a P2P downloader? Since when were the RIAA the police?
If you download kiddie porn, chances are the police will raid you to try to find proof. Downloading kiddie porn is a serious crime. If you P2P MP3s, the police don't care. It's not a criminal matter, it's a civil matter between you and the RIAA. No search warrants, no raids.
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Hooray
It won't be long before the guys that fiddle your kids start using it as a defence also.
What a great step forward.
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Re: Hooray
Um. No it doesn't. You wouldn't be able to convict a child pornographer on the level of evidence the RIAA uses anyway. So, no, it doesn't impact those types of cases at all. In those cases, the police are likely to have a lot more proof than just an IP address.
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Re: Hooray
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duh?
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Re: duh?
Yes, this concept was pointed out years ago... but the point is that it's actually WORKING in court. That's news.
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Question: Do You think that the R.I.A.A. would have started this Cyber-Digital Witch Hunt trying to sniff out practitioners of transidental downloading of coveted Mp3s if Metallica-Sonny had not have stretched his A** hole over top of his head and got everyone stirred up about file-sharing?
The internet is based on file sharing. When Tim Burners-Lee came up with the idea that documents on one computer could contain links that could access documents on another computer, the internet was born! See http://endnear.com/ca472/ca472lecnotes18.html
If file sharing is illegal then by the same token, the internet is also illegal.
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lofl
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Home of the free
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RIAA suits
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The issue is about the fact that the RIAA and record labels have been unsuccessful in going after people who simply claim another user used ther connection.
If you do more careful reading you would see this has nothing to do with the statue of limitations.
Seems to be an extremely effective defense that the RIAA is afraid to test.
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hmmm...what about the $500 software I'm downloadin
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Yay
Why does the WHOLE United Sates have to be run by rich and greedy bastards? It all trickles down to the RIAA/MPAA/BSA wants money. They make alot more suing you for the money than they would if you would have paid for it legally. Piracy isn't costing them money-it's making them money from lawsuits. DMCA should be burned. As far as I knew, recording or recopying of a certain document was legal as long as it was for private and/or non-profit use. Then along comes the DMCA. :- Money make-a da world go roun.
I know an IP Address doesn't link to a certain computer. IP addresses can be spoofed, MAC Addresses can be spoofed, Referrer URLs can be spoofed, basically anything on the internet can be faked. Hard evidence- like DNA or a knife- hold up alot better in court than electronic, substantial evidence-like an IP Address.
http://forums.phoenixlabs.org/t12171-riaa-will-drop-cases-if-you-point-out-that-an-ip-ad dress-isnt-a-person.html
That's from a person who is involved in real copyright infringement cases. If you point out that you had a WiFi open, and you can prove you didn't know what you were doing, i.e. it came open, and you could convince them you don't have the computer know-how to figure out how to encrypt your wireless, which many people probably don't, then you'll probably get the case against you dropped. Too bad my roter came Encrypted.
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hey
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Re: hey
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Re: Re: hey
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Oh this won't work... They want the public to pay for their DRM hw and sw development...
These guys are jackasses
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Oh this won't work... They want the public to pay for their DRM hw and sw development...
These guys are jackasses
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As far as i know it is illegal to record off television with a VCR.... at least in australia it is lol lame
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i/p
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Criminal vs. Civil
Also, there is legal precedent in both criminal and legal matters for prosecuting, in this case, every user of the network in question (supposing the number is small) if it is certain that the network is responsible but uncertain who was responsible. In my state (Texas), this precedent is often used to bust everyone in car if drugs are found and no one is willing to rat out his or her companions.
Like it or not, (and I don't) while their tactics suck, the RIAA has a point. Artists should, under US law, be able to control and profit from the distribution of their own music. In the end, the online community and the RIAA will probably have to compromise on an iTunes-like solution.
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You're responsible?
I have to sit down and read the entire thread but one thing that caught my eye was the person saying YOU are responsible for everything that happens through your IP address; there was discussiong about guns and knives and perhaps I'm reiterating something that was already said but if you own a gun and someone steals it, you are not responsible for it...
I would think that if it is the internet subscriber's responsibility for everything that happens through his/her IP address then it would not be illegal for people to use the network without the subscriber's knowledge... Perhaps it isn't illegal, I'm just starting to research it.
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I think im cool but im just a fool
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hmmmmm
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Good idea... but wont work.
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MAC ADDRESS
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your wrong
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Ignorant People
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What's so hard about it?
And BTW it's not a GIVEN that "artists" should have infinite control over whatever they produce. To some extent, when you put something out into public culture, it's up for grabs. If you REALLY want to support the ARTIST, mail them unmarked cash instead of trusting the music industry to pay them fairly. And GO SEE LIVE MUSIC! Without brainjacking, you still can't share THAT.
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file sharing
make right but this is the road that thye have taken,
what do we do,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,nothing, we did nothing wrong, all we did was own the ip address,,,,,,,,,Dennis and Maureen Drumm, venting in Philly
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It's Ok, Just wait...
oh wait..
Let me infect myself with a remote access trojan first :)
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Re: Re: Getting around Proof
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i think ive heard someting like this..
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One word librarys
Way I see it Bit torrent or other methods should be turned into the worlds library system
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One word librarys
Way I see it Bit torrent or other methods should be turned into the worlds library system
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btw canadian courts will uphold US copyright infringement claims
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Support Your local artists!
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Civil Suit Evidence of Guilt Not as Strict
One reason RIAA has been pursuing civil suits as opposed to having the FBI indict for criminal prosecution, is that Civil Suits DON'T have a "beyond a reasonable doubt" requirement.
All that's generally needed in a civil suit is a "preponderance of evidence". A much looser requirement.
That's one reason why OJ was found not guilty in the criminal trial, but still found to be and held "responsible for" the deaths in the civil trial.
So, the RIAA will likely continue filing civil suits, hoping that a "preponderance" of the evidence will be enough in selected cases.
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What the heck?
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What about possession?
Sure they could never prove that you actually downloaded something without having hidden cameras installed or something, but the point everyone is missing is that you are in possession of the mp3's. If all else fails they will charge you with possession.
Same goes for kiddie porn, same goes for drugs. If you are found to be in possession of illegal items, you can be charged.
I like the guy that wrote "if someone steals your car and runs down a pedestrian, how can that be blamed on you?"
Well if you're found with the pedestrians body in your house, then I'm pretty sure you're in trouble.
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Frank
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IP
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Your wrong
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You are all wrong.
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Re: You are all wrong.
Can you point to such legislation? Was it federal? State? Since no one else seems to have heard of it, might help if you had some proof.
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IP Is Not A Person - Open WiFi
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Can someone Please Uplift this Stupid Law
Fuck the RIAA & the people who support them!
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RIAA cases
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