Russian Court Says Visa Can't Cut Off AllofMP3 Unit

from the denied dept

Mon, Jul 16th 2007 5:40pm — Carlo Longino

Earlier in the month, Russian authorities shut down the well-known Allofmp3.com site, following complaints from the US government -- and the implication that if they didn't do so, the US would make it hard for Russia to join the World Trade Organization. Of course, the people behind Allofmp3 quickly set up shop at another URL, and went about their business selling dirt-cheap digital music. It's today been reported that Alltunes, another site owned by Allofmp3's parent company, has won a court case against Visa's Russian agent, after Visa refused to process its payments. As the company points out, it's never been convicted of illegal activity, and Visa cut it off after complaints from the IFPI, the international equivalent of the RIAA. It's not clear to what extent Visa and its agents can be forced to =offer their services to a business, however the Allofmp3 folks are correct when they assert that it's not Visa's -- nor the IFPI's -- right to decide when copyright's been violated, particularly when they don't hold any of the copyrights in question.

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Filed Under: copyright, entertainment, music
Companies: allofmp3, ifpi, visa

36 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2007 @ 6:05pm

Just a legal BS. Visa should have the right to whom it wants to do business with.
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- George Glass, 16 Jul 2007 @ 6:30pm
  
  Re:
  Yeah, like if I wanted to sell groceries to only white people, I'm sure that's perfectly legal. You must not be a business owner? It might be different if consumers were ripped off, but they are probably quite satisfied. If others think it is wrong, they will have to keep the pressure going to change the law. Visa now has to pay for getting involved in politics instead of just doing what they do best.
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  - GoblinJuice, 16 Jul 2007 @ 7:32pm
    
    Re: Re:
    "Yeah, like if I wanted to sell groceries to only white people"
    
    It's called Whole Foods. :-P
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    - YouKnowNothing, 17 Jul 2007 @ 6:18am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Classic!
      
      The only "people of color" I've seen shopping at Whole Foods are Asian.
      
      The only other "people of color" I've seen at Whole Foods work there.
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  - Cesa, 17 Jul 2007 @ 7:01am
    
    Re: Re:
    I don't know anything about the laws in the US or in Russia, so I won't comment on that, but I can comment about Sweden where I live.
    
    Here a business owner can refuse business to anyone, as long as they don't discriminate any particular group, i.e. they can refuse to do business with any specific person, but not to "all blacks", or "all muslims", or "all male between 49 and 53", or any other specified group.
    
    It works fine here, so it should elsewhere as well. Though as I said, I don't know whether Russia has similar laws or not.
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    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 8:17am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      ...they can refuse to do business with any specific person, but not to "all blacks"...
      If that's so, then they can refuse to do business with blacks except for a few specially choosen "token" blacks. Wow, I had no idea Sweden so was backwards and racist. That kind of behavior was outlawed in the US long ago. You should be ashamed.
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      - Mr. Vage, 17 Jul 2007 @ 10:10am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I hope that was meant to be a joke. I think the point of the law is that if someone is being an a**hole, the owner of the store can kick the person out.
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        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 10:52am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        In the US it is illegal to discriminate against someone for *being* black whether you do so to *all* blacks or not. Many racists have tried to claim that they were not racist because they did not discriminate against ALL members of a particular race. That just doesn't cut it. For example, if you only discriminate against "uppity" blacks but not against blacks that show "proper" deference to whites, it is still racist and illegal. Even if you aren't discriminating against "all" blacks.
        
        If the law in Sweden is really as Cesa says and it is only illegal to discriminate against "all" members of a group then it sounds like racist's dream. It should be illegal to discriminate based on *being* a member of a group whether you apply it to all members or not. You can disagree with that if you want but it still doesn't make it right.
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      - Cesa, 17 Jul 2007 @ 11:44am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        If we were talking about math, and what I wrote was the exact definition of the law, you would be correct.
        
        But the law is much more flexible than a mathematical proof, sure you can try to find holes in the law to your advantage in Sweden just as anywhere, but you have to be much more inventive than that... :P
        
        So no, a judge would see right through such a silly attempt to discriminate.
        
        And it's not backwards, it's the best compromise of two worlds, the right of the business owner to do business as s/he chooses, and the right of everyone not to be discriminated.
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        Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 12:58pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Cesa,
        You wrote what you wrote and either it was true or it wasn't. If what you wrote is actually true then it is indeed backwards. If what you wrote isn't true then trying to justify it rather than admitting it just makes you seem like a liar.
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        Cesa, 18 Jul 2007 @ 11:01am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I didn't feel it was necessary to look up the law and do an exact translation, I thought it was obvious what I meant, and how the law worked. You managed to misunderstand me to a degree I wouldn't have thought possible...
        
        The law is written and interpreted in a way that enables a business owner to do business to whoever s/he likes, as long as s/he does not discriminate people for belonging to a certain group, be it sex, religion etc.
        
        Clearer now?
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    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 11:22am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Here a business owner can refuse business to anyone, as long as they don't discriminate any particular group,...
      That's what they're doing. They're refusing to do business with a group that the recording industry doesn't like.
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- Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2007 @ 6:31pm
  
  A case of contract enforcement
  Agreed. However, if they signed a contract saying they will provide a service
  for a certain period of time, they must honor the contract.
  
  Visa has the right to not offer further contracts to a constumer after the
  current one runs out.
  
  They can start offering contracts that state that they have the right to
  withhold/terminate service based on whether a complaint from a foreign
  or domestic third party exist.
  
  Of course, any constumer can decide to do (or not do) business with Visa
  based on the contracts offered by Visa.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2007 @ 11:51pm
    
    Re: A case of contract enforcement
    Visa has the right to not offer further contracts to a constumer after the current one runs out.
    I'm not sure Visa has such a "right". I think it probably depends on Russian law which may prohibit such discriminatory banking practices. Sometimes people get the mistaken idea that contracts somehow always trump the law.
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- Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2007 @ 8:10pm
  
  Re:
  Visa doesn't have any products or purchases with which to chose. They aren't choosing who they do business with, they're choosing who their customers do business with, which is bullshit. You don't put money onto a credit card expecting them to tell you what you can and can't use it to pay for (exception being store credit cards, but those are obvious limits).
  
  What's next, Mastercard decides to go activist and claim that Microsoft's a monopoly, and refuses to allow transactions on PC's?
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Joker, 16 Jul 2007 @ 6:27pm

And you're an idiot, Anonymous Coward
The whole issue was about the fact that Visa's decison was based on pressure from the American mafia, aka the RIAA, and the hot breath of George W. Bush down their necks.
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- John W, 17 Jul 2007 @ 9:57am
  
  Re: And you're an idiot, Anonymous Coward
  "the American mafia, aka the RIAA, and the hot breath of George W. Bush down their necks."
  
  Uh, yeah, you left wing idiots give W. way too much credit. I agree the RIAA is mafia-like, but Bush has nothing to do with any of this. I guess you can't go one day without saying something bad about Bush.
  
  Ever realize he's not up for reelection? I still hear people chanting "Defeat Bush"...give it up guys. Take your own advice and move on.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 10:13am
    
    Re: Re: And you're an idiot, Anonymous Coward
    "Ever realize he's not up for reelection?"
    
    A person can only be president of the US for 2 terms...
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John, 16 Jul 2007 @ 7:15pm

bad precedent
Visa can do business with the companies it chooses. However, I think by pulling its services out of allofmp3.com the company set a bad precedent. Now anytime some organization or company disagrees with Visa and whom it does business with, they can tell Visa, "Well, you shouldn't do business with them because of," and Visa will have to justify why it's okay to do business with them.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 12:00am
  
  Re: bad precedent
  Visa can do business with the companies it chooses.
  Says who?
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  - DON Johnson, 17 Jul 2007 @ 2:37am
    
    Re: Re: bad precedent
    Says the fact that since the whole airlines fiasco when visa lost tons of money because of shady business dealings whenever there is a possiblity of loss, cause of whiners like most of you who lets say pre-paid with your VISA or MC which visa owns the platform for both, wanted their money back they would have to pay out. Looks like a clear cut decision. Visa offers a service and if you have a Visa card just be happy they are looking out for you ... the consumer. weird huh.
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    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 3:23am
      
      Re: Re: Re: bad precedent
      Oh, so says you, Emperor DON Johnson, huh? Well, the courts and I both think you're full of it.
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    - Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 3:42am
      
      Re: Re: Re: bad precedent
      Visa offers a service and if you have a Visa card just be happy they are looking out for you ... the consumer. weird huh.
      There were no consumer complaints against Alltunes. Plenty of consumers have complained about Visa cutting this seller off though. That's not exactly "Visa looking out for you ... the consumer". That's more like Visa trying to impose their political goals on their card holders. Let me tell you something, DON Johnson, I don't need you or Visa telling me who to do business with. Go tell that to your handler back in the Visa PR department.
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Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2007 @ 7:54pm

A lot of places still don't take American Express because of their higher percent. So if I can decide which chards I will allow my customers use why can't the cards decide who they want as customers? Hrmm weird.
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- Anonymous Coward, 16 Jul 2007 @ 11:59pm
  
  Re:
  So if I can decide which chards I will allow my customers use why can't the cards decide who they want as customers? Hrmm weird.
  For the same reason they aren't allowed to charge different interest rates to different people based on their political affiliation.
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Overcast, 16 Jul 2007 @ 8:42pm

Oh that's nice - now Visa wants to tell us what we can and cannot buy.

I suppose one could use Mastercard..
Just another opening for a new credit card company.

But as we all know, Visa will always be the 'big' credit card company. Just as IBM is the big computer company... oh wait, IBM's decisions that made things hard for consumers kind of changed that.
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 12:14am

Their Choice
It's not clear to what extent Visa and its agents can be forced to =offer their services to a business,...
It's their choice: If they don't want to follow Russian law then they don't have to do business there.
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mike allen, 17 Jul 2007 @ 1:56am

The article states That IFRI does not own copyright nor does the RIAA only the individual record company and that is debateable as I maintain it is the artist and the writers not the recording company that should hold the copyright the record should only has the right to distribute the recordings
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Monster Mash, 17 Jul 2007 @ 4:20am

Visa
Now I know why I don't want, carry or otherwise use credit cards.

The model 666 implanted microprocessor is just around the corner...
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 6:28am

it all goes down how the contract between visa and alltunes was drawn up.

sure visa can pull, but at what cost? what if there are "open" transactions. i.e. people purchased via visa, but visa isn't paying that now.

that woudl be my only concern. because if you told me you are gonna give me money for when other people purchased an item, and then those people got their item, and i'm waiting for payment...
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keybored, 17 Jul 2007 @ 6:43am

really a shame
allofmp3 has their shit together. It is/was an awesome website. Kudos to you: allofmp3 programming gods!

Screw visa for imposing their objectives on me. You know the other sister site(s) can't accept visa either. Guess what, there other ways to fund the account. Dumb asses with your political agendas. 19cents a song not enough for your cut?

allofmp3 et. al. is an example of a good site providing a good service. Okay? Back to work for me, have to earn an honest living not like so many others...
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 6:49am

im pretty sure visa is allowed to refuse to do business with Alofmp3.com or its affiliates or any other business. but as poster #4 said they have have to honor there contracts.

So Visa is stuck to covering there clients purchases until there agreement with Alofmp3.com is over then they could refuse to renew it.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 8:06am
  
  Re:
  im pretty sure visa is allowed to refuse to do business with Alofmp3.com or its affiliates or any other business.
  You're pretty wrong too.
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AnonymousCoward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 8:55am

I'm Just an Idiot
Look here it is, I'll lay it out for you: I'm an idiot, I say things on here entirely to promote discussion. Why else would I turn the words Cesa into an accusation that Swedes are racist?

Sheesh.
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- Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 10:24am
  
  Re: I'm Just an Idiot
  Are you accusing Cesa of not telling the truth?
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Anonymous Coward, 17 Jul 2007 @ 11:06am

I think the main issue here is not whether or not Visa have the right to do business with someone or not.

The point is they are being idiots doing the bidding on the IFPI and that's a stupid move.

Also, to you fools who think Visa offer you a service. Yes they do, but at a VERY costly price. It's not like they're doing it for free, idiots......
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