Up Is Down, Black Is White, Not Discriminating Against Internet Traffic Is Discriminating
from the explain-please? dept
While a bunch of consumer groups have come out in favor of keeping the internet neutral, a bunch of civil rights groups are taking the opposing view. However, the reasoning is hard to follow, as it doesn't make very much sense: "The effective prioritization of P2P traffic would represent an altogether new type of 'back of the bus' second-class status for our speech on broadband networks -- and ought to be resoundingly rejected." Actually, it's the use of traffic management that would create a second-class status for some traffic. Preserving network neutrality does exactly the opposite -- making sure all packets are treated equally. What the groups seem to be saying -- incorrectly -- is that by not using traffic management, P2P traffic is prioritized. That's not true. It's treated equally with any other traffic.It's completely fair to argue that treating all packets equally doesn't make sense -- as many have. However, to claim that treating all packets equally somehow makes some traffic "second-class" is an outright misrepresentation. No one denies (perhaps other than these civil rights groups) that traffic management is all about officially making certain kinds of traffic second-class. They just argue that this is necessary and reasonable. The filing by these civil rights groups is simply backwards.
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Filed Under: civil rights, discrimination, net neutrality
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We wouldn't want to be packet racists now, would we?
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Re:
I hope your happy with your self.
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LMAO
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Organizations involved:
National Black Chamber of Commerce, Latinos in Information Sciences and Technology Association, League of Rural Voters, and National Council of Women's Organizations.
Harry Alford is the only named person, representing the NBCC. (Odd acroynym, eh?) And discussese a real skewed perspective of "Content discrimination"
How much did Comcast pay you?
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If they limited themselves to what they could actually provide, they wouldn't need all this traffic management. Of course lower speeds wouldn't bring in the customers, so they could maybe... I don't know, upgrade their networks?
Gee, I think I'll follow their example and start an all-you-can-eat-buffet, but instead of buying enough food to feed everyone who shows up, I'll only buy enough for 25% of them, and then I'll start kicking people out when they eat too much! I'll just claim that I'm performing normal food-management procedures.
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VOiP is very network-sensitive, and I've had trouble with routing and latency before with Comcast- A traceroute revealed routing 1200 miles away before being routed back to my hometown, somehow adding 75ms and packet loss of about 8%. It's not fun trying to explaining that to Comcast reps!
But in almost every instance, the DSL companies have been much more helpful, and extremely knowledgable. If I had that problem again, the DSL company would know to fix it and update the routing tables.
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re: Rekrul
In principle, I am for Net Neutrality. In application, there needs to be some degree of "discrimination" of traffic in order for more sensitive protocols (VoIP) to function properly.
That shouldn't mean intentionally denying (via TCP reset) P2P, or any other protocol. It means implementing QoS features such as DiffServ that only restrict the flow of traffic when the bandwidth on a specific trunk (yours) exceeds a certain threshold. And even then, it's only if the higher priority protocol is in use and asking for that bandwidth. That's reasonable. Why? Because its nearly impossible to build out a network that would allow for total saturation of all it's ports and trunks. And by allowing applications that can make use of multiple TCP streams simultaneously, you can saturate an entire trunk, thereby disallowing competing traffic. Single streams don't have this problem. That's why P2P is a problem. Even in France, where you can get 28Mb/s, IPTV, AND IP Telephony for $45/mo. they employ QoS features. It works well for them and would be a great model for us as well.
What's NOT reasonable is using methods that discriminate SOLELY on protocol or that give, say, AT&T VoIP priority over Vonage VoIP.
There are many ways to control traffic that are amenable to both consumer and network operator. It's just a matter of getting the ISPs to see that they don't have to kill the goose to get the golden egg.
At the end of the day, what really matters is competition. If there were enough options for consumers (and there's not), then one could simply move to an ISP that doesn't restrict P2P, for example. If that were an option then we'd have a true free economy situation that would force ISPs to be competitive with pricing and bandwidth.
Until then, we'll just have to continue the debate.
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I am not a hacker
I thought the "man in the middle" attack was illegal.
What would happen to me if I were caught using this ?
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priorities
If my neighbor and I are on the same DSL plan, why should his VoIP get priority over my pornography? Who says his needs are more urgent than mine.
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Re: re: Rekrul
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Re: re: Rekrul
Also, new DOCSIS 3.0 Cable Modem standards would allow more than 340MB/s of bandwidth on a node. Point is, technology is in the tubes (catchy huh) that would help to facilitate demand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS#Speed_Table
Lastly, maybe DOCSIS supports multiple instances on the same wire. If this is possible, then the cablecos could setup a complete second system for Business-Class service, or those who want to pay a premium for speed, complete with SLAs.
I am no network engineer, but would like to hear some thoughts about this rambling.. :-)
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Re: priorities
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If it is not illegal, then possibly there are some felons who should appeal their convictions.
As I understand it, Comcast basically uses the man in the middle attack where they assume the identity of the client (and server?) and sent a reset (to both?).
If this is not illegal, it should be.
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Re:
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Transmit 16.4 Tbps over 1500 miles!
George Rittenhouse, a VP researcher from Bell Labs stated that “these breakthroughs highlight the depth and breadth of the work done by Bell Labs researchers in optical networking and physical technologies around the world, and show how they must constantly improve and innovate across various technical areas to pave the way to the future of communications.” Due to their work we might soon have no worry about the size of a movie, audio file, website or document. Hopefully this technology will be implemented and commercialized soon enough.
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Re: Re: re: Rekrul
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080228-att-talks-serious-smack-about-cable-broadband -speeds.html
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AT&T and other have been co-opting groups like these to use as PR mouthpieces for years. Dig around a group like the National Association for the Deaf's website, and notice their "technology primer" is written by Verizon.
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I agree with # 11
That said if i am paying for unlimited bandwidth Comcast does not have the right to spoof IP’s that I am communicating with and forcing resets. If I did this on their network, quite legitimately, I would be prosecuted for theft of services. Same goes for them. If they spoof resets they are stealing my ability to use the service that I have been paying for. It does not matter who ones the network, The customer is paying for the service.
As to #15, maybe that is why VoIP is not a good idea from a cable provider as they have not architected the network to carry all the traffic that they are selling. The provider should be liable not the neighbor who is only operating under what they have paid for.
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Comcast traffic shaping
I have an RCA cable modem that is rented from Comcast. When I start to use Bittorrent, in not too long my internet connection completely shuts down. The only way to get it back is to power cycle the cable modem. Comcast refuses to acknowlege the behavior, although there is no way to deny it.
user Stephen_ has entered room
stephen(Fri Feb 29 10:49:39 EST 2008)>RCA modem ceases to function upon Bittorrent usage. Power cycle required
analyst Ehsan has entered room
Ehsan(Fri Feb 29 10:49:46 EST 2008)>Hello Stephen_, Thank you for contacting Comcast Live Chat Support. My name is Ehsan. Please give me one moment to review your information.
analyst Denise has entered room
Ehsan(Fri Feb 29 10:50:33 EST 2008)>Please wait, while the problem is escalated to another analyst
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:50:34 EST 2008)>Hello Stephen_, Thank you for contacting Comcast Live Chat Support. My name is Denise. Please give me one moment to review your information.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:50:39 EST 2008)>Hi, how are you today?
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:51:24 EST 2008)>Hi, I'm well
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:51:27 EST 2008)>Thanks...
analyst Ehsan has left room
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:50:56 EST 2008)>Good.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:51:23 EST 2008)>One moment while I bring up your account information.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:52:08 EST 2008)>ok
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:54:42 EST 2008)>Stephen, may I have your Comcast account number with the date and amount of the last payment for verification please?
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:55:38 EST 2008)>That's a tough one, cause I'm at work... Let me see if my wife is online
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:56:48 EST 2008)>She's not. I don't have access to either
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:57:08 EST 2008)>Stephen, would you be able to chat back when you are at home, as we will need to go through a powercycle with you.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:57:59 EST 2008)>Let's assume I'm who I say I am, what can we do about the RCA modem? The issue appears to be reasonably well documented on the internet
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:58:11 EST 2008)>Oh, are you going to upgrade the firmware?
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:58:29 EST 2008)>I am sorry Stephen, I cannot help you or troubleshoot unless you are at home where the equipment is. I am sorry.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 10:59:32 EST 2008)>Ok. I'll chat back when i'm home today
Denise(Fri Feb 29 10:59:59 EST 2008)>Thank you for contacting Comcast. If you need assistance in the future, please do not hesitate to contact us through Live Chat or E-mail (available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week). Simply visit www.comcast.net and select Help.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:00:54 EST 2008)>Is there any know solution for this other than getting a different modem? Is this related to bittorrent traffic shaping?
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:03:02 EST 2008)>One moment please.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:04:04 EST 2008)>ok.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:09:44 EST 2008)>I do apologize for the wait. Her is some information I found for you.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:09:48 EST 2008)>Do you block access to peer-to-peer applications like BitTorrent?
No. We do not block access to any Web site or applications, including BitTorrent. Our customers use the Internet for downloading and uploading files, watching movies and videos, streaming music, sharing digital photos, accessing numerous peer-to-peer sites, VOIP applications like Vonage, and thousands of other applications online.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:10:06 EST 2008)>Do you discriminate against particular types of online content?
No. There is no discrimination based on the type of content. Our customers enjoy unfettered access to all the content, services, and applications that the Internet has to offer. We respect our customers' privacy and we don't monitor specific customer activities on the Internet or track individual online behavior such as which Web sites they visit. Therefore, we do not know whether any individual user is visiting BitTorrent or any other site.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:11:40 EST 2008)>ok, I should tell you a couple of things. 1) I'm a software engineer. 2) I'm active in several internet threads currently on slashdot and techdirt that are interested in the result of this conversation. That being said, how can you explain that the only kind of traffic that shuts down my modem is bittorrent traffic?
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:13:29 EST 2008)> Please go to www.comcast.net,help, and search bittorrent, this is where you can get the information.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:14:25 EST 2008)>none of the information there prevents my modem from shutting down when I use bittorrent
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:17:46 EST 2008)>Please chat back when you are home, so we can troubleshoot with you as I have already mentioned.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:19:25 EST 2008)>very well... however, you should understand that when I get there, diagnostics will be difficult, as when we turn on bittorrent and the connection promptly closes, I'll lose my internet connection and thus my session with comcast
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:20:04 EST 2008)>but I can discuss that with the analyst that I speak with tonight I suppose
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:22:44 EST 2008)>Comcast does not block access to any applications such as P2P, including BitTorrent. We do not alter Internet speed or traffic.
We respect our customers’ privacy and we don’t monitor specific customer activities on the Internet or track individual online behavior, such as which websites they visit. Therefore, we do not know whether any individual user is visiting BitTorrent or any other site.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:23:10 EST 2008)>No. We do not block access to any P2P applications, including BitTorrent. We also respect our customers’ privacy and don’t monitor specific customer activities on the Internet or track individual online behavior, such as which websites they visit. Therefore, we do not know whether any individual user is visiting BitTorrent or any other site.
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:25:36 EST 2008)>If that's your stance, that's what I'll post.. But when I told you I was a software engineer, what I meant to convey was - I've worked on protocols and protocol analyzers, I understand how the internet works. you'd have a hard time explaining my cable modem shut downs.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:24:56 EST 2008)>Comcast is not traffic shaping or packet shaping. We have a responsibility to manage our network to ensure that our customers have the best broadband experience possible. That means we use the latest technologies to manage our network to provide a quality experience for all Comcast subscribers. This is standard practice for network operators around the world.
Denise(Fri Feb 29 11:25:55 EST 2008)>Only thing is to chat back later when you are at home, ok Stephen?
Stephen_(Fri Feb 29 11:26:50 EST 2008)>Very well... i'll resume tonight when I'm at home. Thanks for your time Denise
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Re: Anonymous Coward
Barrier to entry for national providers is very high. Thats why most start out as serving one metro area, and expand or get purchased. Not long ago (about 2 decades) comcast was thousands of individual companies itself.
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