Cities Caught Illegally Tampering With Traffic Lights To Increase Revenue Of Red Light Cameras
from the this-again? dept
Just last month there was the latest in a rather long line of reports noting that red light cameras tend to increase the number of accidents because people slam on their brakes to stop in time, leading to rear-ending accidents. Time and time again studies have shown that if cities really wanted to make traffic crossings safer there's a very simple way to do so: increase the length of the yellow light and make sure there's a pause before the cross traffic light turns green (this is done in some places, but not in many others). Tragically, it looks like some cities are doing the opposite! Jeff Nolan points out that six US cities have been caught decreasing the length of the yellow light below the legal limits in an effort to catch more drivers running red lights and increasing revenue. This is especially disgusting. These cities are actively putting more people in danger of serious injury or death solely for the sake of raising revenue -- while claiming all along that it's for safety purposes. Is it any surprise that one of the six cities is Dallas? Remember, just last month Dallas decided it wasn't going to install any more red light cameras because fewer tickets had hurt city revenue.
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Filed Under: cities, red light cameras, revenue
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Re:
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of course
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Re: of course
Cheney: "So?"
The government certainly does not care about us.
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Re: of course
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Re: Re: of course
The short Amber signal times may be causing more accidents, injuries, and insurance expenses,
but that's not Big Business' problem as long as the revenue keeps getting raked in.
As for government not laying people off, you might check what has happened at the EPA and OSHA over the past decade.
Some may feel our civil institutions should be run like Big Business,
but the current resident of the Whitehouse already has our nation following Enron's example.
Enron's shareholders and America's citizens get the shaft while the people at the top walk away with the loot.
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Re: of course
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Re: of course
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Florida
e
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Re: Florida
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Re: Re: Florida
Maybe someday we'll see an adaptive restraint system that can decide based on data from dozens sensors and physics calculations if it would be best to keep the seat belt on or to release it.
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Re: Re: Florida
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Re: Re: Re: Florida
I now know of two people who were in car accidents & if they were wearing their seat belts they would not be here right now. If you are in a side end collision & you have your seatbelt on most likely you will be completely crushed by your seatbelt. The bullshit thing that happened to a friend of mine who wasn't wearing his seat belt. When he was in the hospital, after the doctors told him if he had his belt on he would of been killed. The cops then came in a couple of days later to fill out the report & issued him a ticket for not wearing a seat belt that would of killed him!
They don't care about your safety they care about their payday!!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Florida
I agree with you about the seatbelt "law" being revoked, but at no time does a cop have the "right" to search your vehicle for you not wearing a seatbelt. They may tell you they can, but the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution states:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
A vehicle is considered a personal effect (belonging) meaning you own it. So therefore the cop has NO RIGHT to search it unless you have something illegal in plain sight. The cop legally has to obtain a warrant stating what he is to search...most will not even bother since it takes time and paperwork needs to be filled out. So know and practice your rights or else they will continue to take them away for the sake of "safety" :)
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Re: Re: Re: Florida
> would have been bettter off without a seatbealt
> that you should remove the seatbelt law. These
> REALLY do save lives
Lots of things would "save lives". Reducing the speed limit everywhere to 10 mph would save lives. Hell, banning motor vehicles all together would save lives. But we don't do that? Why? Because as callous as it sounds, we've decided that the benefit to society of having cars and trucks outweighs the cost of those lives that are lost as a result.
All of life is a cost/benefit risk analysis. We make choices everyday that risk our lives for some perceived benefit.
The thing about seatbelt laws and helmet laws and all other similar nanny-state laws is that removes that decision from me, where it belongs, and gives it to the government. When I vote on election day, I'm not voting for some big-government super-parent to watch out for me and pass laws forcing me to do things for my own good. I'm a grown adult and I can make decisions about my own safety on my own, thank you very much; government bureaucrats in Washington don't know any better what's good for me than I do and there's no reason their judgment should supersede mine.
I was choosing to wear my seatbelt long before the government told me I had to. That's not the point. The point is, it's not the proper function of government to force to wear it in the first place.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Florida
Your choice: you're involved in an accident which is your fault, and the other party sustains permanent brain injury which could be prevented by wearing a belt. Would you like the guilt, or if you're totally calous the litigation, if they decided not to wear one?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Florida
> it is a lower chance of dying or suffering serious injury. Looks
> like a pretty easy cost-benifit analysis to me.
Not the point. The point is that it's *my* right to do that analysis and make these decisions for myself. Not some big-government elitist who thinks he/she knows what's better for me than I do.
> Your choice: you're involved in an accident which is your fault,
> and the other party sustains permanent brain injury which
> could be prevented by wearing a belt. Would you like the guilt,
> or if you're totally calous the litigation, if they decided not to
> wear one?
If they decided not to wear a seatbelt, why would I feel guilty about that? They made the choice, they ran the risk, and they suffered the consequences of their actions. How is that something I need to feel guilty about? And how did alleviating peoples' guilt becomes a proper use of government power?
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Re: Florida
In certain situations, a helmet will save a motorcyclist's life. In others, it causes more harm. It only protects from one type of injury, albeit an important one. Compare that to seatbealts, which only endanger you if you can't get it unbuckled while the car is on fire or immersed in water (or another liquid) or when it's worn improperly. Since you can cut a belt with a knife and special seat belt cutters are available on the market (I keep them in my vehicles), those aren't very strong arguments against them.
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Re: Florida
Read the Hurt Report, then get back to us.
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Re: Florida
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Re: Florida and your grammar
The word is "intact" not "in tact".
Terry
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e
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Add the pause, lengthen the yellow, kill the cameras.
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Re: (comment by kDiddle)
First, the only lights you will EVER run into that are only 8 second stops, are the ones that go red, then proceed to turn green right after. There is a legal MINIMUM time of 15 seconds for a green light, and 3 seconds for a red - that alone is 18 - more than twice what you said. Further - there are many lights in high traffic areas where your wait can be as long as 10 minutes if you are in the minor traffic lanes (10 minutes being the maximum.) So you may theoretically cost someone their life (a lot can happen in 10 minutes) if you force them to stop on a yellow light.
Second, yellow DOES NOT MEAN STOP! It means caution - and in the case of traffic lights, it means Caution, a Red light is coming, prepare to stop. It's there to warn you that you need to stop, but if you can't safely stop then get through now.
Stopping at a yellow is the act of an inconsiderate idiot, unless you can't get through the intersection before it turns red. But I bet you think it's perfectly okay to be in the middle of an intersection after it's red, because it was green when you entered.
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Re: Re: (comment by kDiddle)
> in the middle of an intersection after it's red,
> because it was green when you entered.
That's actually the law where I live. The transportation code explicitly says that if a vehicle enters and intersection legally (i.e. on a green or a yellow), then it's entitled to leave the intersection legally (even if the light has since turned red).
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Re: Re: (comment by The Truth Beacon)
Your "minimums" are not included in basic traffic law, and are probably set by your state. In my state, I can think of at least two lights where the green is _much_ shorter than 15 seconds. I drive like I have a top fuel dragster, yet I have barely gotten across the intersection before the yellow kicked in at times.
Also, basic traffic law says that you can enter an intersection on a green or yellow, as long as you can safely get completely through the intersection. You _can_ be in the intersection while the light is red, however, you must have broken the plane of the intersection before the light turned red. In my state, it's a ticket if you gun the engine on yellow, but you can cruise through as late as you wish if you are slowing or maintaining speed.
Suprisingly, you can also get a ticket for disobeying a green light. Even if the light turns green, you cannot ente r the intersection until all the other vehicles have exited. It is generally also a violation to stay stopped at a green light...
Back on subject, someone asked, 'so what if they cut the yellow shorter'... well, lets say they cut the light to .25 seconds... that's barely within some people's reaction time, let alone time enough to stop.
BKNJ
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Re: Re: (comment by kDiddle)
I agree a lot can happen in 10 minutes, but if you're talking about circumstantial events, it could as easily save a persons life by keeping them out of the 15 car pile up (or any type of event) as it could cost them their life. If you mean someone's dying in the car or something like that, by all means pull out all the stops.
As for yellow, I agree there too, mostly. Yellow means stop if you are able to, at least in the laws where I am (might be slight variation Canada/US). The problem comes with human nature, and that a lot of people won't try stopping at all until they see red, have to slam on the brakes, and the person behind them was following too close, going to fast, and there's an accident. Yellow gives plenty of time to stop, even with reasonable speeding. In utopia, it all works brilliantly. Too bad we're all flawed, camera or no camera.
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Re: Re: (comment by kDiddle)
It IS ok to be in the intersection after it's red, so long as you cleared the invisible line connecting the sidewalks. I say that line, because the original line (the one you have to stop at if you were to stop) was being fudged so that cities can make more money off of red light violations. Oh hey, I wonder why that sounded familiar.
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Re: Re: (comment by kDiddle)
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Re: Red light cameras cause accidents
Yellow lights are not an indication to stop. They are simply an indication that the light is going to change and that people should make a judgement about proceeding accordingly. If you are very close to the light and would need to slam on the brakes to stop (thus causing a rear end collision), then proceeding through the intersection is the correct choice. If you are far away then stopping is the correct choice.
People will always misjudge lights. Sometimes the yellow is shorter or longer than expected (there are supposed to be formulas for setting the duration but it seems rare that anyone uses them- Predictability is the best way to prevent accidents). Sometimes people just misjudge their speed or the distance to the light. It should not be a big deal and a slightly longer yellow and a pause between yellow and subsequent green for the cross street would all reduce collisions even further.
The problem is that when you put a camera at a light, people don't make sensible judgements about their speed and distance from the light. They do what you seem to think people at a yellow should do- slam on their brakes to make sure they don't get a ticket. The problem is the person behind them, who may not have known their was a camera and was using their judgment- suddenly rear ends the person in front of them because they weren't expecting them to stop like a maniac.
Red light cameras do nothing to stop drunk drivers (unlike an officer who can actually pull the person over) and so I have no idea who or what they are protecting everyone else from.
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Re: I Don't Understand Yellow Lights
I live in Colorado. Here's the relevant statute [42-4-603(1)(b)(I)]:
As you can see, there's nothing in there about stopping.
-Peter
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Re: Re: I Don't Understand Yellow Lights
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Where I live the lights change so fast that if the light turns yellow while you are in the middle of the intersection you cannot get to the other side before it turns red.
It's not about trying to cross once the light turns yellow, I'm referring to the light being green when you begin to cross then going through yellow so fast it's red before you are to the other side of the intersection.
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Re: kDiddle
I'll be honest... I've run a red light before. I had a dishwasher in the back of my SUV, and thought if I stopped quickly enough at an intersection with a short yellow... I might be crushed by the heavy dishwasher sliding forward into me. I can definitely see how purposely shortening the yellows could cause accidents, even within one vehicle if they don't get rear-ended. You want those 2x4's you're hauling home to crash through your front window because you had to slam on the brakes at a short yellow?
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Re: Re: kDiddle
You obviously didn't have your load properly secured.
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Re: Going faster for yellow lights
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Re:
( http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/opspublic.nsf/discussionDisplay?Open&id=7CFB51E04C66D86685257 05800461560&Group=Signs&tab=DISCUSSION )
One engineer has suggested that no matter what the speed limit may be set at, the minimum timing speed of 3 seconds is more appropriate for 25mph and slowing to that speed when coming up to a light with camera is the only safe way to approach.
Following that advice will increase road rage and also increase accidents. How can we win when the debate is about big brother wanting more of our money? (Fairly or not)
My Suggestions:
1) use a video recorder to time lights on the route you normally take. determine what intersections are timed at unsafe timing.
2)let the BBB know you will not spend your money at local stores to those lights.( best way to get the city involved with safe engineering practice)
3)Change your route to avoid camera intersections.
Seem like a lot of work? Slow down when approaching intersections that you know have cameras! There really is a zone on shortened lights where you can't continue without running the light and you can't stop safely. With that information the only safe way to drive in this day of cash cows is sloooow. My bet is your city is looking at the camera business as a cash cow, forget safety, even accidents rake in fines.
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Re: one second red light camera ticket
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Typical
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Re: shortening of yellow lights.
Perhaps when people start realizing that the Government is not the good guy, they will start to wake up to themselves and make sure that they, the people, will stop giving more power to the government. What is shameful is that people still think that the government is there for their good. Talk about naive...
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No Pause?
The accidents and traffic jams not having that would make must suck.
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Potential prosecution???
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Re: Potential prosecution???
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Who really profits?
Decreasing yellow light time is a horrible thing for those cities to do. If I lived there I would definitely start a petition to get some people fired and those cameras taken down.
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News?
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Re: News?
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Re: News?
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Re: News?
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Re: Re: News?
I think that's an overly broad definition of "news". If I wrote an article about the Battle of Gettysburg, it would likely be informative, but certainly not news.
My concern is that this item will upset people because they think that all of the sudden 6 cities were caught doing something wrong. In fact, this is simply a congolmeration of old news stories that are not in and of themselves news.
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Re: Re: Re: News?
So, Aaron (no last name) This is still going on, it's getting worse and it is extremely newsworthy.
I cant wait for an large newswire expose detailing the shady contracts and deals these red light companies work out with local towns and counties. It's all about the money... Installing red light cameras is like getting a monopoly on board walk, you win, everyone else looses...
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Re: News?
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You can not change the law of Physics, Captain!
What is the reaction time at that speed? r feet
What is a safety margin for indecision? m feet
How wide is the intersection? w feet
Now compare the time to travel that distance (total=s+r+m+w) to the length of the yellow light.
if yellow > safety then SUE city.
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It's not always possible for a driver to slam on his brakes and stop at the line when the light turns yellow, and that is not the intention. It simply lets drivers who can't stop know to hurry it up, and it lets drivers who can stop know to slow down.
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Response to: Bob on Apr 11th, 2008 @ 7:21am
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I also agree that often yellow lights need to be longer than they are. Some lights are fine, and others are way too short (again, lack of standardization). Of course, there should be some variance based on the speed limit of the road the light is on. A 55-mph highway would need a longer yellow light than a 30-mph one would.
BUT, I disagree with the argument that slamming on the brakes for a yellow light endangers others. Driving is dangerous, period. Every licensed driver goes through a training course where defensive driving and careful observation are highly stressed (or at least, they should be, dunno what the quality of driver's ed is these days). Everybody on the road is responsible for themselves and their own vehicle. If you are following somebody so close that you will rear-end them if they stop quickly on a yellow light, then you deserve to be in a wreck, because you are not being a responsible driver. The danger for rear-ending other vehicles is always present, and I don't honestly think a shorter yellow light will make it any more dangerous. The problem is lack of responsibility on the driver's part by not driving defensively and being in full control of their vehicle.
But on the flipside, shortening yellow lights to increase revenue from red light cameras is absolutely despicable, and the cities doing it need to be punished severely. I understand the need for city revenue, but setting up situations that trick people into committing crimes shows that the government is ethically and morally bankrupt. It's true, our society has become one completely obsessed with greed and profit, and some people will stop at nothing to achieve profit, no matter who they have to stomp on to get there. We've also become a society that believes no individual is responsible for his own actions, which ties right into this whole picture as well. I wish I could say there's an easy fix to this, but there isn't.
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Second, unfortunately, though all drivers SHOULD be responsible for themselves and their vehicles, many are not. The most common example is kids who are driving their parents' cars, but some people are just plain irresponsible.
Finally, as I've noted above, physics matters. For easy numbers, lets say that I can stop my car in about 20ft of space; the numbers aren't important, it's just demonstration. If I see a yellow at 20ft I'm fine -- UNLESS you decide you need to stop at that yellow instead of proceed through. Now I have, we'll say, 12ft of space. I can not stop my car normally; I can either stop short in response or hit you. If *I* stop short, the guy behind ME is now endangered because his stopping zone is smaller. If I hit you, was it because I was an irresponsible driver or you were? (I'm not talking about who's legally culpable, as we all know the guy in back gets the blame in all rear-end accidents.)
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Re: Re:
However, speed makes a difference in stopping distance. If you're in slow traffic going twenty-five miles per hours, you may only need ten feet to stop, so stay that far away, etc.
People who slam on brakes do not cause accidents. People who fail to understand how to drive the vehicle they're in and continue to drive anyway cause accidents.
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Re:
What an asinine statement. No, people do not "deserve" to be in wrecks. People, be they drivers or passengers, do not "deserve" to die to satisfy your warped sense of justice.
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Re: Anonymous Coward on Apr 11th, 2008 @ 7:41am
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Also, I see both sides of the slam on the brakes problem. I was in a situation the other day where I was coming throug an intersection with the cameras and the light went yellow. At any other intersection, I would have continued through, it swith right at the point where the decision to go or stop is tough to make. I started to go, then realized there was a camera at the intersection and slammed on the brakes, almost out of instinct.
Now, if someone would have hit me, it technically would/should have been their fault for failing to 'maintain assured clear distance' but if the camera wouldn't have been there, I'm sure I would have cleared the intersection well before the other light turned green and there would have been no possibility of an issue in the first place.
On the other hand, you could be driving down any road and have something unexpected cause you to slam on the brakes anywhere, think animals/children, if somebody rear ends you there, it's their fault, plain & simple.
I think everybody agrees that the cities intentionally causing an intersection to be more dangerous is deplorable behavior. Anyone responsible for making this decision should be prosecuted for endangering public safety, whether or not any accident occured as a result of the change.
Just about every city in America is facing financial challenges right now, but this amounts to theft and criminal mischief as far as I'm concerned.
And yes, it should be BIG news that this is happening!!
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Quote:
I agree totally, a countdown timer would help tremendously.
Also, I see both sides of the slam on the brakes problem. I was in a situation the other day where I was coming throug an intersection with the cameras and the light went yellow. At any other intersection, I would have continued through, it swith right at the point where the decision to go or stop is tough to make. I started to go, then realized there was a camera at the intersection and slammed on the brakes, almost out of instinct.
Now, if someone would have hit me, it technically would/should have been their fault for failing to 'maintain assured clear distance' but if the camera wouldn't have been there, I'm sure I would have cleared the intersection well before the other light turned green and there would have been no possibility of an issue in the first place.
On the other hand, you could be driving down any road and have something unexpected cause you to slam on the brakes anywhere, think animals/children, if somebody rear ends you there, it's their fault, plain & simple.
I think everybody agrees that the cities intentionally causing an intersection to be more dangerous is deplorable behavior. Anyone responsible for making this decision should be prosecuted for endangering public safety, whether or not any accident occured as a result of the change.
Just about every city in America is facing financial challenges right now, but this amounts to theft and criminal mischief as far as I'm concerned.
And yes, it should be BIG news that this is happening!!
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Re:
If a violation is found all tickets since the last valid inspection should be refunded by the camera operator. In the event of an outside firm operating a camera system the collected fines are still paid to the municipality. That is a 200% penalty on an outside operator.
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Its been going on for as long as the lights have been around
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Re: Its been going on for as long as the lights have been around
That same light now has a yellow so short that if you blink you'll miss it. I was driving down that road, actually going the speed limit since I know the cop around there is a dick. I looked at the light and it was green. I was about 50ft from the intersection. I blinked and the light was red. I drive a Jeep. It can't stop that fast. The real funny thing is, we don't have those cameras.
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Can we say Class Action
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Re: Can we say Class Action
> below the legal limit may be constued as
> fraud and potenally purjury.
How in the hell could altering the length of a yellow light meet the elements of perjury? Perjury is lying about a material fact while under oath or other cumpulsory legal process. It has nothing to do with traffic lights.
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Look at the communist states of Virginia & Ohio
Noone should be suprised by this.Citys & states in this country think they can do anything they damn well please.
The town I live in there have been several shootings by police where everyone in town knew the police would be found at fault but are found to be justified.In at least one instance the police claimed the victem had taken his gun so he shot & killed the (unarmed) man in his back yard with his second gun.The cops service revolver was found inside the house nowhere near the victem.The shooting was found to be justified.
As for fines & such the laws are set up specifically to collect revenue.These citys & states could care less about your safty,even the ones not cheating.
Look at the communist states of Virginia & Ohio.Hell in Ohio the state police even wear little Nazi uniforms.
Virginia is becoming more communist than the USSR was.
Most of these city & state politicians see these extorted funds from you & I as a way to hide the loss of revenue from what they have embezzled from us the tax payers.
These people work for you the tax payer!From the Mayor down to the street cop!If they continue to engage in this elegal activity fire them!
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Drivers License
This applies to a drivers license as well. I can't speak for other states, but Ohio's driving "test", both the written and in car, is pathetic. It's sad how simple it is, and it's done this way to maximize the number of people paying for a license and creating the largest pool of people potentially buying a car and thus tags. This low standard for driving ability is a safety risk for everyone on the road, but is done to make sure the state collects as much money via the DMV as possible.
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Eliminate traffic lights entirely
No traffic lights and, therefore, no red-light cameras to extort money from the public.
TT
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Re: Eliminate traffic lights entirely
It's a nice idea, and I agree that if we trained good drivers it would probably help out a lot. I just don't see it (round-abouts or better training) happening any time soon.
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Re: Eliminate traffic lights entirely
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Re: Re: Eliminate traffic lights entirely
I just call them road rage rings. This is where "my turob can pass your sorry ass any time". Very poor design and lack of planning.
John
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Re: Re: Eliminate traffic lights entirely
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PRICELESS!!
Suburb : SAINT PETERS / SAINT CHARLES
Lobbying for red light cameras
$650,000
Kickbacks and bribes
$300,000+
Purchase of red light camera hardware
$1 million+
Red light camera installations
$500,000+ for
Still having the most pot holes than any other city in the entire state of Missouri?
PRICELESS!!
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the other 5 cities are:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/six-us-cities-tamper-with-traffic-cameras-for-profit.html
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Source, please
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Fines
I've often thought that fines should be prohibited from going directly to the city or agency imposing them. There is way too much incentive for overzealousness. If there is truly a safety issue, there will be enough of an incentive to address it without making money. Recovering costs is one thing, but the remainder of the fines should be directed elsewhere. This applies whether or not its automated.
A better option would be to create a state/federal fund that is redistributed without using fines imposed as a measure. You could even have the fine go to the 501c of choice. Just about every area has a small village that uses ticketing through traffic as a revenue source. Removing the financial incentive would put an end to this tactic.
Ohio's test may be easy, but people still fail it. That's kind of scary. I don't have too much issue with the license costs. Roads aren't free.
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--Roundabouts, Stoplights, and Drivers Education--
It still does not make the HORRIBLE actions of these cities acceptable under ANY circumstances! "We the people" not "We the government" They are supposed to be normal people who take TEMPORARY jobs as PUBLIC SERVANTS!!!!! not wh#%re themselves out for money!!!
Disgusting
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Re: Germany
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Re: --Roundabouts, Stoplights, and Drivers Education--
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Who cares
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seatbelts not as invasive as helmets
So do Helmets, but wearing a large heavy hot helmet when it is 100 degrees outside is far worse than a belt across your lap and shoulder.
I wear a seat belt in the back seat of vehicles when not required by law, and you should at least consider it.
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Red Light Cameras & Signal Timing
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Unfair Taxes
What I would personally like to see is if we could get fines changed from cash to community service. At least at that level we'd all be giving up the same thing, our time. Instead of some of us giving up a night on the town vs some giving up a weeks grocery bill.
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Re: Unfair Taxes
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Re: Unfair Taxes
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To those mentioning about waiting many minutes for a green light
Many people don't realize that many lights are triggered by sensors, most of which are triggered by the presence of large concentrations of metal, such as a car.
Two things to greatly improve the odds of the light changing to green in a timely manner:
1. Stop completely prior to the stopbar (the white line).
2. After about 20 seconds, if nothing seems to be happening, inch the car forward very slightly (several inches or so), and repeat a couple of times every 20 seconds or so.
If still no green after 2 minutes, *assuming* no traffic signal activity on any side of the intersection, then it's likely legally ok to go through it.
Most states, such as Pennsylvania, try to limit the duration of a traffic signal to no more than 1 minute per side; 2 minutes or so maximum for a complete cycle. But that's PA ... many states tolerate much longer cycle times - I've seen some traffic cycles, especially in Florida take nearly 5 minutes to complete.
Ron
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Re: To those mentioning about waiting many minutes for a green light
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Re: To those mentioning about waiting many minutes for a green light
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Why does it not surprise me that Lubbock is on this list
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yellow light time
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Re: yellow light time-Standards setting like a supermarket or a gas pump
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Just today
And I wish people learned/obeyed the right turn on red AFTER STOPPING law. It can be scary to be turning left on a green light and having people coming from the left, making right had turns, blowing through the red light without slowimg down. A cop could write tickets for that all day long at any intersection in Mass with a light or Stop sign.
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Red Light Camera Training
It was raining, not too hard, I was coming down a hill in the leftmost lane, and very much not speeding. Light changes with about 150 feet to go, I instinctively hit the brakes... and instead of stopping, the wheels lock and I start hydroplaning into the next lane over, where another car already is.
A tense couple of seconds where I let off the brakes, correct and steer with a few feet to spare, thanks to training from an emergency driving course. However, I can see a situation where someone similarly conditioned to just plain STOP would have corrected too late to stop sliding (thanks to water and gravity).
It is a problem because I've seen really LONG yellows, and realy SHORT yellows, and with the number of cameras around, you really don't want to be taking any chances, so the reaction becomes hardwired out of habit.
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I Wonder
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standards for left turns
There was a horrific accident here a few years back when a bigrig driver used to leading lefts saw the left arrow at a trailing left intersection. He didn't even touch the brakes as he tore an SUV in half!
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they forgot San Diego
So they forgot to mention San Diego.
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what about Miami?
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Disgusting and Unconstitutional
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Longer yellow won't work
The pause between red and other side green light is ok but it won't solve the problem of yellow light crossing.
The solution is to have yellow as full stop unless too close to the stop line. In this case only those drivers will pass whom cannot stop their cars safely.
The rule should be like: If you see yellow light stop your car safely and if you couldn't make it behind the stop line then pass.
In this case the longer yellow light will actually work. For the red light coming after yellow there can be two options:
1- Intelligent way, turn red if cars are not passing (this makes yellow variable up to it's maximum time)
2- Shorten the red light duration to make up for the long yellow time during which the drivers have already stopped their cars.
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Red light taxation
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LED
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Reality check...
Here's a typical example:
It's 5pm and you're leaving work. The road from your office meets a major road at a traffic light. You're 10th in line to turn left onto the major road.
However, everyone else is also leaving work, so the major road is packed with traffic.
In order to keep that traffic moving, the left-turn signal is green only long enough to let 3 cars through. (This is assuming that cars in the major road have cleared the intersection. If they haven't, then you'll be waiting even longer... and you'll get even more frustrated, which will cause you to want to run the yellow or red light.)
Let's also assume that it also takes over 3 minutes for the cycle to come back around for the left-turn signal to turn green.
Cars #1-3 go through the green light. Car #4 stops at the yellow light and everyone behind him has to wait over 3 minutes. Okay, that's not so bad.
Cars #4-6 go through the next light and car #7 also stops at the yellow light.
You're 10th in line to turn left and you're looking at waiting for TEN minutes simply to turn left to *start* your commute home.
If cars #4 and #7 ran the yellow light, although dangerous, it wouldn't just save "8 seconds" (as the poster above said), it would translate into 3 or 4 or 5 minutes less wait for the rest of the cars in line.
This leads to the bigger question: why is there so much traffic in front of the office after work? What can be done to relieve it? Should people use side roads? Are there even any side roads to get out of the office complex? Or do five different office complexes empty out onto *one* side road, which then connects to the major road?
What causes the traffic to be so bad in the first place? Are other traffic lights too short? Are there too many traffic lights on the major road?
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Illegal?
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"Boo hoo this is old"..STFU
Is it still occurring? Yes!
Then guess what, Its NEWS!
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Flawed!
But if ALL LIGHTS have their yellow lengthened, there will be no benefit because people will learn to expect the longer yellow and push the threshold.
It's not until people EXPECT that they will be caught AT EVERY LIGHT if they run the red that you will see there will be no accidents. Just food for thought...
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Raise hands, please?
(a) Undergraduate degree in Transportation Engineering, or Civil Engineering with a Transportation emphasis
(b) Graduate degree, or post-graduate coursework, in Transportation Engineering, or Civil Engineering with a Transportation emphasis?
(c) F.E. (formerly, E.I.T.) certification?
(d) P.E. licensure, or, R.C.E. licensure, or R.T.E. licensure?
(e) P.T.O.E. certification from I.T.E.?
(f) Membership (Associate is okay) in I.T.E.?
(g) Practical experience in traffic engineering?
(h) Experience using Synchro, TRANSYT 7f, PASSER-II, or any other packages to analyze variations in timing plans to optimise the movement of vehicles (i.e. calculate LOS') through intersections?
(i) Practical experience in signal design?
(j) Practial experience in developing timing plans under a variety of signal controller types, detection system types, and traffic volumes? Bonus for developing corridor plans with offsets for non-interconnected systems?
Class? Anyone? Anyone?
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Re: Raise hands, please?
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Re: Re: Raise hands, please?
But you were asking about the people who were posting; none of the above posts are mine.
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K. Langley - LOL
You don't need any actual knowledge about how to obey traffic signals to drive...
I'm surprised that people have suggested lights are on sensors OR timers. There are clearly many lights that are on both sensors AND timers - and the behavior can vary throughout the day and night.
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I wonder..
I wonder, in such cases, does the red-light camera go crazy and start snapping pictures?
-Weasel5i2
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Re: I wonder..
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Re: Re: I wonder..
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that is funny
Ha ha ha
anyone here a parking lot engineer ?
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Traffic cams, it's all about safety
John
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Red Light Camera Scam
A local city, Costa Mesa CA, stated in the paper that they have fine tuned their cameras to within 0.10 sec to ensure that they allow the legal limit of yellow time. Of course this is after getting caught shortening the yellow to make $. Since this is my business, I entered their signal on the yellow believing that I had plenty of yellow time but it turned red while I was in the intersection. Minor suprise that I received a ticked for running the red. They fixed the photo to show red on entry and not yellow. Why fight it though as the court takes the pic as irrefutable evidence. Big Brother is here and in our pockets.
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Regression in 'values' w/regard to safety?
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yellow lights
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They do not care
If there is money to be made, you can bet they will be all over it. They really do not care.
Hopefully your vote still counts. They are busy working on its removal.
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Free Healthcare
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Not to mention that while there's a light for crossing the main road, there's no light at all for crossing the road that leads up to the intersection, which is quite busy. There's a crosswalk, but no light. Since I've developed problems with my ankle, I'm not nearly as fast as I used to be and a couple times I've almost gotten hit because I underestimated how long it would take me to get across. There's also a crosswalk in the town center with no light and an almost endless stream of traffic.
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Is it orange yet ?
Some states it is 3 seconds, others it is 4.3.
I wonder if you would be questioned (hassled) by poilce for timing the yellow lights in your area. Because only a criminal (terrorist) would be interested in such data.
One would think that the state would be doing this themselves, but I would not count on it.
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What Minimum Yellow Time?
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Re: What Minimum Yellow Time?
http://www.motorists.org/blog/red-light-cameras/6-cities-that-were-caught-shortening-yel low-light-times-for-profit/
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Re: Re: What Minimum Yellow Time?
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Re: Re: Re: What Minimum Yellow Time?
"So what was the point of posting that link? That article didn't mention any legal minimum time for yellow lights in Texas."
Yes, you are correct.
What is the point of a state government (TxDOT) recommendation ? The article does provide insight into what some Texas governmnet DOT employees think the lower limit ought to be. Possibly they have knowledge and experinece in the field.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What Minimum Yellow Time?
Meanwhile, cities are perfectly free to totally ignore those recommendations, which was the point of the original comment.
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Shortened lights
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Drive sanely, and if your from out of town, only other out-of-towners will honk if you stop traffic for directions.
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Everyone Loves Good Government
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Re: Everyone Loves Good Government
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Re: Everyone Loves A Troll
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Shortened Yellow Lights
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Lawsuit!
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the lenght of time for yellow light in Wash. St.
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1. You cannot stop in time, when you are too fast.
2. If you are accustomed to longer yellow lights, you drive on and reach the traffic light at "very dark yellow".
In Germany we have only one possible time for each maximaly allowed speed. So eveybody knows exactly what ist going on. If we exceed yellow in order to please some drivers, we will exceed danger!
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red lights
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Re: red lights
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tampering with stop light timing
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City Camera Lights
at those intersections. They have signs for everything else,
even where not needed. I'm all for driving safer and properly but I still feel cheated and violated especially out of my civil rights that someone is spying on me even when they are so hard up for ticketing people for making a right turn on a red light. They will not spend the money to fix the pot holes that ruin your car but they will spend more money to ticket you YET STILL WILL NOT FIX THE POT HOLES WITH THAT TICKET MONEY. Ticks me off!
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Re: Red Lights
They asked Springfield if they changed the yellow time when they installed the cameras. Springfield said "yes" and the reporter took this to mean "decrease". Springfield actually increased the time, not decreased. The city is actually aware of the news article.
I guess the author of the news article wanted to make Springfield look bad rather than follow up with the truth.
While I don't agree with red light cameras, it is a shame that people write these kinds of non-truths to try and gain favor for their side rather than present the facts correctly.
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Negative side of pause in red light
I regularly see drivers executing a left turn long after the left turn light has turned amber, and then red.
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red light cam
what the seconds are between yellow and red.doing 55mph,50mph,45mph,40mph and
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red light cameras
We should not be surprised, we should be informed, the behavior should be expected. Just like trying to make it through the yellow.
Good system design accounts for that kind of stuff. Like a clear period of all red. Like a simple check that the timing of the lights meet specifications. And putting cameras there to catch the scoff-laws.
Part of the prosecution of red light offenders should be the date/person/specification of the last calibration of the stop light.
Alas, our reaction (get rid of those terrible terrible cameras!!!): not a surprise, expected.
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Traffic cams
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Fining the driver
Case in point the guy with the mask in Arizona. They can not proof he was driving.
New Orleans has put up cameras, the greedy city itself.
Some one email me an answer.
Robert
RBennen@aol.com
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light change greeen- to amber -to red in 3 second
i entered a deserted crosswalk at 9:07 pm. Wed going west turning North on Biscane Blvd. in Aventura Fl.. . After receiving this summons, I later went to the location and took many video shots with my "iPhone" which shows the light change from greeen- to amber -to red in 3 second. I'm watching the crosswalk and traffic likht at the same time. I had no time to look to see if their was a car on my tail. (a similar situation happened a yr ago.and my new car was hit.)
I plan on fighting this if anyone knows the law or has a similar situation please contact me at studiamond at comcast,net
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However, as someone mentioned, it is not always safe or even physically possible to stop on yellow. If I'm two meters away from the intersection and the light turns yellow, slamming on the brakes is not safe. Do they expect us to psychically know when the light is going to turn. That's just silly.
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sensors
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