Time Warner Cable Accused Of Antitrust Violation For Requiring You To Rent Your Modem

from the illegal-tying? dept

Thu, Aug 14th 2008 8:12am — Mike Masnick

A guy in Kansas is suing Time Warner Cable for its practice of requiring customers to "rent" their cable ~~modem~~ boxes. He claims that this is an illegal "tying" arrangement, since most subscribers would probably prefer to just own their ~~modem~~ boxes outright. ~~Modem~~ Box rentals have always been something of a scam. It's just a way to charge more for the monthly service, without having to include this extra "cost" in the price that they advertise to consumers. The guy is even noting that this requirement of renting a specific cable modem harkens back to when AT&T required you to rent your telephone from them. The courts struck that down, so hopefully they'll strike down this practice as well.

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Filed Under: antitrust, cable modems, rentals
Companies: time warner cable

68 Comments

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hegemon13, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:19am

Sure hope he's successful
I have a nice Motorola cable modem boxed up in the garage that will run circles around the flimsy, unreliable Speedstream that Time Warner stuck me with. I would love to switch them out and save on my monthly bill if Time Warner would support it.
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eleete, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:20am

Toss Aways
I can't tell you how many times I have changed services for people or canceled because they were moving. Here in FL Comcast, AT&T/Bellsouth, and Advanced cable do charge modem rentals but allow you to own your own.

Whenever I cancel service however, they Never ask for the modem back or the little dongles for the telephones. Seems odd to be charging a monthly rental fee on something they give away in the end anyway.

I started giving their own modem to other customers switching about and they don't even recognize that it's been recycled. Odd, but true.
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Raj, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:31am

Forced rental?
I've got a motorola surfboard 5100 that I've had for years and am now on my third cable provider. Both Comcast and Time Warner have not given me any problems bringing my own modem. All they need is the mac address of the modem. Helps me avoid that $3 fee.

Maybe Time Warner Kansas is different than Northeast Ohio.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:34am

Comcast too
Let's hope this spreads to the set top boxes too.
I am happy and ready to pay for Comcast digital cable but have delayed doing so because I have no place or need for the box they will force me to rent.
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Norm, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:35am

Re: Toss Aways
To add to this, I had a friend that ended up with 2 cable modems when he moved to a new house and had to renew service at the new location. Not only did the old modem work, but it worked in tandem with the new one, with totally separate IP addresses. Saved him a lot of wiring/wireless hassle.
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nipseyrussell, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:38am

while the cable modem is the analogous situation we would also like to see this in the article/lawsuit IS about CABLE BOXES not modems
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Matt Bennett, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:40am

Yeah, isn't it the exact same case with Cable set-top boxes? Plus, they're constantly switching things to digital, supposedly for better service, but it also has the side effect of making cable-ready TVs not so cable-ready?
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Skippy T. Mut, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:49am

Not to mention...
...they are also willing to charge you an additional $10/month for a "wireless cable modem" which is basically a modem with a wireless router built into it (yes the same one verizon gives you FOR FREE with DSL). So basically you're paying $10/month over the life of your service for a $20 wireless router. What a scam!

On a side note; If you want to find out how to get thousands of people to send you $10 every day just send me $10 and I will rush you my new self help pamphlet: "Stupidity and You...A guide to why you are so stupid"
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CS, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:57am

Wrong
The headline of the linked article is "Man Files Antitrust Suit Against Time Warner Over Forced Cable Box Rentals".

"Cable box" != "Cable modem".
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jhunter, 14 Aug 2008 @ 8:59am

Re: Comcast too
You can get regular cable with out the box...

Or do what I do, have a TivoHD and get a cablecard from comcast so you can get the digital channels. (the cable card is like 2.50 I think).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
garfalk, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:00am

Re: Not to mention...
the pamphlet should sound important.

i would love to own my own box, but i just switched providers and have yet to read into all the agreements.
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Alimas, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:01am

Comcast
Yeah, Comcast does the rental thing to, but you can bring your own modem.
I've been running the same Surfboard 5100(?) for years now and just gave a spare I had to my girlfriend when she get her internet in her new place.
I'd be all pissed off if they required I used that specific box and had to "rent" it.
That'd be analogous to PSNH (power company) charging me a "rent" for the line that goes to my house from the power network.
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Yakko Warner, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:02am

Re:
Which is the first reason I am still on plain old analog cable: because I can take a "cable-ready" TV to any room in the house, plug it in, and watch what I want, without having to buy or rent an additional box *per TV*.

Digital's great and all, except it costs more, has more channels I'll never watch, requires another box to draw more power and use another remote with more batteries and will just get lost by the kids anyway, and suddenly my "cable-ready TV" is now just a big monitor permanently tuned to channel 3 (or aux video input) -- and the dual-tuner PIP function on the TV becomes pretty worthless...
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Raquel, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:02am

Not quite the same
Actually, cable boxes are quite different from the modems. The boxes require software updates several times a yr, and require the boxes have the same software. This software comes from the box vendor and has to be purchased by the cable company. It would sort of illegal to push software to a box they don't own...
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:04am

i just switched providers and have yet to read into all the agreements.
There's your problem, smart guy. You are supposed to read the contract BEFORE you sign it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Michael Whitetail, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:14am

Re: Re: Toss Aways
People need to be careful with that. Since all addressable equipment needs to be authorized in the DOCSIS standard, they know you have 2 modems, and at least with Brighthouse Networks in Orlando, Florida, they will charge you 2 instances of service because you are getting full speed out of both modems, and an IP address for each modem.
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Michael Whitetail, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:18am

Re:
No. The only reason they are doing so is to save bandwidth in their pipe. With the bandwidth savings of killing off analog, they can send out more video-on-demand stuff, have more HD channels at better quality, and still save money.

Its all about the bottom line, and replacing older analog equipment, making all the nodes and amps on the network digital and addressable saves them tons of money in maintenance costs.

Which they wont pass on to you of course, that goes straight to their profit margins...
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Michael Whitetail, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:23am

Re: Not to mention...
You know what the per month cost of that Home Networking fee really goes for? The telephone support for wireless connections. They support the product they sell, and it costs them alot of time, effort, and money to train, and field the call center reps to handle all of the moron consumers at there.

Besides that, they don't, and cannot bar you from using your own router. The difference in using yours? Lack of support except by the OEM, who almost always want to point the finger at the ISP.

The same goes for those that want their own modems. Sure you could get one in the store, but its not typically better quality no mater what you think. They are all standardized to work on the DOCSIS protocol. The real difference is you know its not been used before.

But if you rented modem goes out, gets struck by lightning, what have you, the cable company will replace it for free. Its added convenience if you want it, and the ability to have your own if you don't; Just accept the consequences.
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CanonicalKoi, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:30am

And don't forget...
The service charge we get in Washington State every month to "rent" your electric meter. $4.00/month--seems like you'd pay the value of the thing pretty quickly....
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hegemon13, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:39am

Re: Forced rental?
Interesting...I am in Kansas, and the rep told me that the SurfBoard 5100 I had left from Comcast was not an "approved modem." Maybe I should call back and talk to a different rep.
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Damien, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:41am

Funny, Charter actually comes out of this looking like the good guy... that's rare. I've had Charter (only cable provider for my area) since 2000 and while they offer to rent you a modem they've had zero issue with me simply purchasing one of my own and notifying them of the new identifying details.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Lazy Reporting, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:07am

Suit is about Set Top Boxes, not MoDems.
Why verify anything.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Luci, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:09am

Re: Toss Aways
Ahh, so people like you would be the reason why I had to explain to customers from Florida why they owed $600 for not returning the rented cable modem that their agreement told them they had to return. Thanks a lot.

I have yet to see a cable service that rents equipment that does NOT require the equipment's return. People, if you have questions about that rental equipment, call your cable provider. >.
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Kevin, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:24am

Modem rental
I wonder if this will affect my DIRECTV as well. I own my box and still have a "Rental" charge. They tell me it is for provisioning, but refuse to change the name to provisioning charge vice rental.
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Sean, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:32am

Re:
That is how @home was and insightBB is for me I have used the same modem for about 5 years. I took the option of buying it from the provider 8 years ago and when original the modem died they replaced it with the newest model they had for free
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JB, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:47am

Cable BOX
The article is about cable boxes, not modems. You can use your own modem with Time Warner.

My TV has a cable card slot and Time Warner will let me use it instead of a cable box, but then I won't be able to receive the channel guide or PPV movies.
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ghost, 14 Aug 2008 @ 11:20am

All hail Optonline.net
I have optimum online... I hate them for making me rent their stupid cable box or dvr or whatever the heck the flavor of the month is; but thus far I have never been charged for a cable modem. I had by SB5100 die on me, I walked into a customer service center, 5 mins later I waked out with a brand new modem. No rent, no monthly fees for the modem and if I have my own modem they are OK with me using that too.

Shame on their cable service for making me pay rent for the dumb box and the remote (yeah $3 for the remote)
Thanks to their internet section for keeping the modems free.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
DaveP in Ohio, 14 Aug 2008 @ 12:26pm

Re: Forced rental?
I'm in Northeast Ohio, use Earthlink via Time Warner and never have seen a fee for the modem... I didn't have one years ago when I was on RoadRunner either... ???
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2008 @ 12:38pm

"it costs them a lot of time, effort, and money to train, and field the call center reps"

training the reps? HAHAHAHAHAHA
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous, 14 Aug 2008 @ 12:54pm

I used to have Time Warner and they use an old stupid modem making us belive that the newer one i owned is not compatible with their cables and they charged me a rent for every month. I hope this spreads more and TWC is kicked on the butt for this practice.
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chris, 14 Aug 2008 @ 2:44pm

Re: Sure hope he's successful
call your cable operator, they can swap out the speedstream for yours. it's just a matter of finding the right person to do it but it can be done.
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chris, 14 Aug 2008 @ 2:56pm

Re: Re: Not to mention...
you are totally right and I agree from personal experience no the support side. you hit the nail on the perverbial head with this comment. these are the facts of the matter, you pay for support and you pay for support, not the equipment, also the lawsuit is highly faulty. Premium channels are available to anyone with a cable card so you can use whatever digital equipment you want, you just can't get the interactive features. Interactive features are technically not part of the cost of the services the customer is receiving, it is added by the provided to enhance the service for the customers who can access that material by using two way boxes(which are owned by the company and can have the company's software on the box.)

that's my beef and that's the facts IN KANSAS CITY and i'm sticking to it.
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Nasch, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:04pm

Re: Re: Not to mention...
Sure you could get one in the store, but its not typically better quality no mater what you think. They are all standardized to work on the DOCSIS protocol. The real difference is you know its not been used before.

Sorry, this is just not true. I have an Ambit cable modem + wireless router (they call it a gateway) from my ISP, and it doesn't even touch my Linksys wireless router in features and configuration - that is, how much control I have over it. You could claim that it's the same hardware inside the box with a different interface on it, but I'll only believe you if you back it up with evidence.

To be fair, you did say "not typically better quality", by which you may have meant strictly reliability and longevity. In that case, maybe it's true. I haven't found either to be substantially more reliable than the other - both work flawlessly almost all the time. And it's too early to tell how long they'll last as they're both pretty new. But other than that, there are major differences, and they're all in favor of the Linksys (except of course that the Linksys isn't a cable modem).
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Nasch, 14 Aug 2008 @ 9:06pm

Re: Re: Not to mention...
Sure you could get one in the store, but its not typically better quality no mater what you think. They are all standardized to work on the DOCSIS protocol. The real difference is you know its not been used before.

OK, so I read your comment again, and you're talking about cable modems and I was talking about oranges. So, never mind. :-) I hope you can get better cable modems from other providers, but I don't know.
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Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:36pm

Re: Not quite the same
The boxes require software updates several times a yr, and require the boxes have the same software.
Those updates are at the operator's discretion. They don't usually have to update if they don't want to. Of course, if they decide they want to add more DRM, cripple some more features, etc. then they may have to update the boxes to do that.

It would sort of illegal to push software to a box they don't own...
How so? That's exactly what they do to customer owned cable modems. Once you connect it to their system the cable company takes it over and basically has their way with it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:38pm

Re:
There's your problem, smart guy. You are supposed to read the contract BEFORE you sign it.
And unless you're a lawyer yourself don't forget to get one to look it over first.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 14 Aug 2008 @ 10:44pm

Re: Modem rental
I wonder if this will affect my DIRECTV as well. I own my box and still have a "Rental" charge. They tell me it is for provisioning, but refuse to change the name to provisioning charge vice rental.
Maybe you just think you own it. I seem to remember reading about DIRECTV claiming to still own the box even after you've paid for it and getting eBay auctions for them pulled on those grounds.
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Michael Whitetail, 14 Aug 2008 @ 11:45pm

Re:
Yes, I said 'train the reps.'

I am a technical writer who spends much of my time in the creation and rewriting of company training manuals to reflect current technology and trends.

I have seen reference and training documents from Time Warner, Roadrunner, and Earthlink for broadband over cable technical support, including the hoops they make call center agents jump through to support those Home networking products.

They spend quite a bit of time and money; first in the creation of the training materials and programs, and then in lost productivity and manpower training these reps instead of having them answer the phone.

The quality of the call center not withstanding, the training regiment is there.
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Michael Whitetail, 14 Aug 2008 @ 11:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Not to mention...
To be fair, you did say "not typically better quality", by which you may have meant strictly reliability and longevity. In that case, maybe it's true. I haven't found either to be substantially more reliable than the other - both work flawlessly almost all the time. And it's too early to tell how long they'll last as they're both pretty new. But other than that, there are major differences, and they're all in favor of the Linksys (except of course that the Linksys isn't a cable modem).

Actually that was exactly what I was talking about :)

I should have been more clear in my post, but I was attempting to say; "Since the modems are all standardized to function on the same protocol, the only market differentiation they could have is the included feature sets of the firmware interface, or external features such as Wireless, Support for VPN tunneling, and the like."

I just didn't explain it very well, and for that the only excuse I can offer is I was only on my second cup of coffee this morning when I wrote that ;)
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Stephen, 15 Aug 2008 @ 7:37am

Please (re)move the cable modem comments
Another whole post should be created for all these mistaken completely off-point modem comments. It's like reading the dialog of a person carrying on a conversation with himself about two completely different topics.

It really dilutes the quality of the comments.
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Joshua, 15 Aug 2008 @ 10:27am

Re: Sure hope he's successful
You can.. I am with Time Warner, I get a meesely $3 off of my bill a month lol. But the point is you can do it.. I have an old Moto-Surfboard modem and it's works great.. so in the course of the years I've saved over $100 bucks using it instead of their crapper lol
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mike, 15 Aug 2008 @ 2:35pm

Re: Wrong
No, cable box gives you TV, Cable modems give you Internet...

I cant belive the stupidity
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Anon, 15 Aug 2008 @ 5:37pm

Wrong
The problem with this is that the customer is NOT required to rent a digital box from Time Warner. The customer has the option to purchase a box from a company such as TiVo and use a cable card that provides the separable security measure, as defined in a FCC mandate towards the end of last year. Due to cable theft, it is necessary to encrypt most channels, and cable companies are well within their rights to restrict access to these channels, provided they offer a means of decryption, via a cable box or a cable card. Most of the cable boxes you will get these days actually have a cable card in them that provides for the 'separable security'. This guy should have done his homework before he started spending money for a lawsuit.
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Anon, 15 Aug 2008 @ 5:42pm

Re: Wrong
As a side note, the cable company I work for charges $200 for a lost or damaged box, which is not really feasible anyhow for a customer to purchase the box from the cable company.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
J, 15 Aug 2008 @ 11:03pm

I understand but.........
While I understand the concern over "leasing cable boxes out" You've got to realize that Time Warner replaces your converter at no cost no matter how many times it goes BAD. If you were to purchase your own converter you would have to deal with warranty issues with the company you got it from and at the same time delaying your digital cable watching experience...........
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Puddy_Tat, 28 Aug 2008 @ 10:50am

Re: Sure hope he's successful
Hegemon,

You can just call them up tell them you have your own modem and you need to get it provisioned. Tell them further to come pick up their modem and you want the $5.00 a month fee deducted from your monthly bill.

Make sure you get the agents name and I do and put this in an email to yourself and your done!!!
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Puddy_Tat, 28 Aug 2008 @ 11:00am

Re: Re: Toss Aways
Toss Aways,

You need to return this equipment otherwise somewhere down the line if you don't have a singed receipt of receiving the modem THEY WILL CHARGE YOU.

They are the biggest scum bags known to man but you have to return these items or you will be shafted in the end....
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Sep 2008 @ 5:12pm

TWC Austin, TX has no rental chage on modems. Cable boxes are a bit different, but you are free to buy your own cable converter, just hope it doesn't break.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Harlan, 15 Oct 2008 @ 3:57pm

Re: Not quite the same
Could you please explain what could possibly need upgrading several times a year? Even Microsoft has a automatic upgrade, not requiring your assistance to your computer, if there is something that requires an update, I see no reason why there would be a problem upgrading it. The topic was about people wanting to get away from renting a box from there cable supplier. In my case Suddenlink gave me approval to use a DVR that was for sale on ebay, after giving them the information and addresses. Then when I actually went to activate it, they said it wasn't in there system and there fore could not be used, so I am out $500, and not very happy about it.
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Nancy, 28 Nov 2008 @ 3:02am

Cable Box
In NYC if you use your own cable box they will send a signal that will blow it up. Good old time warner...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Nancy, 28 Nov 2008 @ 3:08am

Cable Box
In NYC if you use your own cable box they will send a signal that will blow it up. Good old time warner...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mickey Deems, 9 Dec 2008 @ 12:30pm

time warner cable monopoly
Here in Van Nuys California if you want cable you must go to Time Warner cable. There are no other companies available. isn't this a monopoly? Mickey Deems 13114 Weddington St Van Nuys Ca. 91401
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wrong, 10 Jan 2009 @ 12:29pm

Yea Right
n NYC if you use your own cable box they will send a signal that will blow it up. Good old time warner...

How i know why New Yorkers are so stupid, They do not send a signal to blow up your box. BS Get a grip and put on your tin hat.
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coward 2, 23 Feb 2009 @ 2:58pm

Re: Re:
Yeah and calling as 'other' t3 repair person forced to endure 8 hours of 'steps''helping' to the point FINALLY(which i knew in 15 minutes)the parts needing replacemnet!!!

AND the poor lady's problem had been 'helped' twice before...
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Linda Suton, 5 Mar 2009 @ 6:00am

Time Warner Cable Boxes
I have been searching to purchase my own cable boxes to save on the cost of the rental. I am paying about 65 dollars a month just for the rental fees alone!! I do think it is outragous!!! Plus they keep coming up with this faster internet speed crap. I cannot see where they can charge you for the speed of road runner, I think it is a bunch of bull!!! I sure hope that guy in Kansas wins this class action suit so I can purchase my own epuipment. I am being forced to go back to regular tv service!! I do have 5 tvs and everyone of them are used daily. I am paying an ouragous 200 dollars a month to watch tv!!! It is truly nuts!!!

Linda in Milwaukee Wisconsin
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Minneh, 30 May 2009 @ 2:29am

Re:
I'm related to a front counter rep for Time Warner, and I had to agree with you. Train the call center reps? *hysterical laughter* the people in charge of my area's call center couldn't tell you where their coffee mug is much less what to do about any cable issues.
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Minneh, 30 May 2009 @ 2:36am

Re: time warner cable monopoly
No. It would be a monopoly if Comcast, Cox, Directv, Dish, Verizon and all those other companies didn't exist.

It's possible where you live falls short of another company's service area, but I'm pretty sure dish and directv would still be usable alternatives regardless where you live. I'm not 100% on that, though.
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Minneh, 30 May 2009 @ 2:39am

Re: Re: time warner cable monopoly
to edit:

If those companies were owned by Time Warner Cable or didn't exist.
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shabazz, 31 Jul 2009 @ 10:05am

law suit
has there been any movement with this suit. I have 2 cable boxes that I cannot connect to Time warner in Cincinnati. That is the biggest pimp game going.
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Liz Albritton, 24 Jan 2011 @ 8:09am

piss poor service and wrongfull billing
mail fraud sherman anti trust act and FCC violations all over the place no one should use time warner cable ever they never show up on time for installs customer service sucks and after you cancel they still bill you
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Scott Marlar, 24 Jan 2011 @ 8:22am

time warner sucks asshole
revolt no one subscribe!!!!!!!! time warner is the worst cable provider on the books fuck you Ted Turner AOL and Hanoi Jane!!!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JoeDISH, 30 Mar 2011 @ 8:54am

I have heard there are a lot of issues with TWC. I work for DISH and DISH offers great programming at the lowest prices. DISH is also recognized for great customer service. DISH also has the most HD avail over any pay-TV provider contact DISH today for more info.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Apr 2011 @ 9:41pm

Re: Comcast too
You can only recive 2-99 unless you have thier box. Even If you have a Digital tuner to get hbo ect ect you have to have a setup box. The boxes bought outright are around 500.00
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Ruth Grunberg, 3 Mar 2012 @ 10:14am

TW bundling lawsuit
Hooray for a consumer willing to tackle Time Warner. What is the current status of the case. There should be a website for TW consumers because they are violating quite a number of laws.

I just battled them because they refused to allow me to just have basic along with pay per view. There is a federal law requiring this. They are an arrogant monopology.
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Time Warner Sucks!, 10 Apr 2012 @ 10:00pm

Class Action Lawsuit
I would love to join in on any lawsuit against Time Warner. Please contact me if you're a lawyer or know of anyone suing them already.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Les, 1 Jul 2012 @ 7:43am

Cable Box Rental
The rental fee every month is way to high, plus if you have more then one TV,you have to pay another rental fee for each additional box.You pay for a service, and have to rent a box to use that service, is rediculous, especially when there are so many commercials.

Les
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Willdav713, 23 Jan 2013 @ 8:24pm

Re: Time Warner
Update!!!

Time Warner is now charging $3.95 per month for the internet modem. If your modem that you buy is not on their "approved list" they refuse to activate it, even if it is the same brand (Scientific Atlanta)I reported it to the FCC, also You are also supposed to be able to bring your own cable box as long as it has cablecard capability. This has been Federal law since November 2011. To this day, I am not able to watch anything over channel 99 on my Motorola Cable box.

They sell them on Ebay and if it were illegal, Ebay wouldn't sell them as it is against their community guidelines, just as you cannot sell illegal drugs such as Herion on Ebay.

I will bookmark this site, and give you status updates of the FCC decision.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Gary, 3 Nov 2015 @ 5:06pm

Re: Re: Time Warner
Has any of this changed. I am wanting to add 2 more boxes with DVR but TWC wants like $60.00 more a month for the 2 extra boxes. This sucks.
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