RIAA Just Keeps On Suing Students: Conversation At The End Of A Gun Barrel
from the some-conversation dept
The folks at Warner Music Group insist that their efforts to convince universities to enforce a not-so-voluntary "usage fee" on all students is part of an attempt to start a conversation on new business models. However, they conveniently leave important stakeholders (those who would be forced to shoulder the bill) out of such a conversation, and have still refused to actually participate here in the conversation. So far, their only "participation" was having a PR person send a statement scolding me for daring to raise questions about such a plan. Apparently, the sort of conversation Warner Music wants is one where everyone lines up and agrees with Warner Music.And, of course, it should surprise no one that the RIAA, where Warner Music has plenty of influence, is still out there filing more lawsuits, even as Warner insists it's turned over a new leaf and is looking for a more reasonable solution. In other words, this isn't a "conversation" at all. It's a protection racket. Warner Music and the other major record labels are just going to keep suing until people agree to hand them a big chunk of money, apparently.
So, Warner Music, if you really want people to believe that you've turned over a new leaf, and that you're interested in a real conversation about new music industry business models, how about you call off the legal dogs and stop filing lawsuits against both individuals and companies and actually participate in a conversation? We're still more than willing to help facilitate such a conversation.
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Filed Under: conversation, lawsuits, riaa, students
Companies: riaa
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By the way, techdirt continues to insist that the proposed talking points include mandatory payments by all university students. Wrong. The RIAA does recognize problems associated with this issue, and has thusly made it clear that they and the universities will address this issue in their ongoing discussions.
Sorry, techdirt, but I believe you do a disservice by characterizing talking points as decisions that have already been made when clearly they have not. It is rare indeed when a final, executed agreement bears any resemblance to the initial talking points. Like the RIAA, the universities likely have their talking points, and it is these respective talking points that help define divergent issues that will have to be addressed and reconciled during the actual negotiations. Moreover, this entire project pertains to a proposal for conducting a limited trial to see if the approach is even feasible. The key words are "limited" and "trial". Words matter, and these two must always be kept in mind when discussing this matter.
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Ahh, warner. They show up in my ip filters whenever I upload their music all the time. I guess I'll have to keep doing it.
/share on
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Two, The RIAA is not involved in this discussion. If they were they would hold off on the lawsuits. Nor have I seen that the colleges or students (who would be the ones paying) are involved.
Three, the payments are what are known as Blanket. Even in the Warner PowerPoint presentation it states "All students or none" (slide 4, point 1, sub-point 2)
Four, You appear to have some inside information that has not yet been released to the public. Please offer a link to where the RIAA is saying that this is not final, limited or trial.
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Regardless of the semantics, if you wish to call them talking points, the fact remains that you're not discussing this plan with those who will have to shoulder the bill. When you have secret "talks" that exclude the individuals about whom you're "talking," we don't call it discussion, or talking points, or any other nicety you can dream up. When you seek to take something from someone without their consent (like money), we call it collusion. Look it up.
The only disservice being done here is by you and those whom you represent.
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tell your employers they are wasting there money having you try a PR attempt here.
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Really? I hope no one relies on you for business advice.
First, making a good faith effort to stop doing something that pisses off pretty much everyone your dealing with is generally considered a good way to go into a negotiation. Continuing to act in such a boorish manner, generally doesn't make the other side all that willing to negotiate.
Of course, if you're doing what Warner's doing, and not including the *real* other party, perhaps it makes sense in some twisted away.
More importantly, however, is your bizarre claim that the RIAA somehow "needs" to be doing this. It does not. There is no requirement or need for the RIAA to sue people. That strategy has been a huge failure and enormously damaging to the recording industry. To claim that it needs to keep suing people until some other deal is worked out makes absolutely no sense.
By the way, techdirt continues to insist that the proposed talking points include mandatory payments by all university students. Wrong. The RIAA does recognize problems associated with this issue, and has thusly made it clear that they and the universities will address this issue in their ongoing discussions.
Jim Griffin's talking points, and the slides presented suggest you are incorrect on this. There has been no indication that this is actually voluntary in any way, shape or form.
Sorry, techdirt, but I believe you do a disservice by characterizing talking points as decisions that have already been made when clearly they have not. It is rare indeed when a final, executed agreement bears any resemblance to the initial talking points
True. But, let me explain to you how it happens that the end result is not like the talking points. It's because people who realize the talking points are bogus stand up and speak up about them. And yet, when we do that, Warner tells us we're not supposed to say anything.
Funny how that works.
Like the RIAA, the universities likely have their talking points, and it is these respective talking points that help define divergent issues that will have to be addressed and reconciled during the actual negotiations.
And who's giving the talking points for the people actually impacted by this decision?
Moreover, this entire project pertains to a proposal for conducting a limited trial to see if the approach is even feasible. The key words are "limited" and "trial". Words matter, and these two must always be kept in mind when discussing this matter.
You cannot create such a system in a "limited" manner without all sorts of unintended consequences. I think it's fair to address some of those potential consequences before we initiate a trial.
I still simply cannot understand the talking points you and Warner make suggesting that I am somehow being unfair in pointing out the problems with the current proposal. It makes no sense at all, unless your plan really is as weak as proposed, and you have no actual responses to the points raised.
So far, no one has addressed the actual points I raised. Instead, we are told that we should shut up and sit tight until Jim Griffin hands us the final plan, worked out with the universities.
I don't buy that. Especially when the RIAA won't even make a good faith gesture in stopping its lawsuits.
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Clearly nothing a rights holder does will ever sway you from your firm opinion that copyright law should be demolished. Maybe it should, then again maybe it should not. The one thing I know for sure is that I do not know the answer. Apparently you are not burdened with such doubt.
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What makes you think we have not done so?
Clearly nothing a rights holder does will ever sway you from your firm opinion that copyright law should be demolished. Maybe it should, then again maybe it should not. The one thing I know for sure is that I do not know the answer. Apparently you are not burdened with such doubt.
Funny. You always like to insist that when you comment here you don't take one side or another, and you never are trying to cast aspersions towards me. You insist that you are only here to present information. Yet, here you are, clearly, making judgment statements (incorrect ones, I might add) about my position. You really ought to look in the mirror sometime.
Anyway, to respond to your baseless assertion (and I'll note, by the way, that you DID NOT respond to a single point I raised), it is simply not true that "nothing a rights holder does will ever sway" me. I've seen many rights holders to incredibly smart things, engaging with their audience, and coming up with new and intriguing business models. That's what I encourage.
So I'm not sure why you attribute to me positions I don't have. I am quite persuadable if someone were to just present some evidence that stood up to scrutiny.
Maybe it should, then again maybe it should not. The one thing I know for sure is that I do not know the answer. Apparently you are not burdened with such doubt.
Again with these baseless assertions. I have plenty of doubt. And I have explained this before. If I had no doubt, why would I leave the comments open? Why would I actively engage in conversations with folks like you? I want to be persuaded. I want to see evidence. You are not providing it. Instead, you are offering backhanded insults rather than responding to a single point I raised.
That, to me, is not convincing. That, to me, suggests you have no argument.
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Perhaps I missed an article authored by techdirt stating that such an offer has been extended to WMG and the schools.
...baseless assertions...plenty of doubt...
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is this not the site where the clarion call is to eliminate patent and copyright law altogether because the law hinders "innovation" (as the site defines the term)? Is this not the site where any rights holder who dares speak up is immediately denigrated and scolded for even daring to use the law to prop up their "outdated, buggy whip" business models? Is this not the site where attorneys, jurists, rights holders and academics who may offer contrary views are simply declared as being uninformed individuals in need of Econ. 101? I could go on, but it would serve no useful purpose.
If you truly want, as you say, to actively engage in conversations, then perhaps it would be beneficial to listen to what others have to say and give them a fair hearing.
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You should try reading a little more carefully then.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but is this not the site where the clarion call is to eliminate patent and copyright law altogether because the law hinders "innovation" (as the site defines the term)?
No. We seek to set up methods to enable more innovation. If someone can craft a system that uses patent or copyright that does so, we'd be all for it. To date, no one has shown us any such plan.
Is this not the site where any rights holder who dares speak up is immediately denigrated and scolded for even daring to use the law to prop up their "outdated, buggy whip" business models?
Again, no. We will, however, point out when someone is misusing a law to prop up an outdated business model. Isn't that relevant?
I'm confused what you expect me to do. Do you think that just because you disagree with me, I should not state my opinion?
Is this not the site where attorneys, jurists, rights holders and academics who may offer contrary views are simply declared as being uninformed individuals in need of Econ. 101?
In the same vein, are you not the person who, when presented stacks upon stacks of evidence that your position is wrong, simply declare that we are all immoral and shouldn't be allowed to comment because we don't know some obscure legal precedent?
See how that works?
It's a conversation. I express my opinion, as do you. If you have FACTS to dispute my opinion, go ahead and state them.
Otherwise, why do you keep saying that we should not be expressing our opinion? You have an astoundingly large double standard. It might help to take a look in the mirror.
If you truly want, as you say, to actively engage in conversations, then perhaps it would be beneficial to listen to what others have to say and give them a fair hearing.
Again, PLEASE, point to a SINGLE example where we do not let anyone speak their mind. I engage with many folks, such as yourself, on a regular basis. We give ANYONE a fair hearing on what they have to say.
Your problem seems to be that we're not convinced by things that make no sense and seem unsubstantiated.
It's amusing to me in the same thread where you suggested we shouldn't speak our minds, that you then whine that I don't give people a fair hearing.
You're too much. The only people not giving others a fair hearing appear to be Warner Music, who won't participate in any conversation.
And, once again, I will point out that you have yet to dispute a SINGLE point I raised about the plan.
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I try. Can you direct me to a cite?
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Not to interrupt, but I believe this article shows that 'WMG' are aware of TechDirt. They, like you, want nothing to do with the criticism. They prefer to work via secrecy and without the knowledge of those whom would actually be paying the tax, the people.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20081208/1955023057.shtml
This article says.. " but Warner Music Group was quick to contact us and distance itself from the presentation"
I believe that article shows an openness one way but not the other. Agreed ?
I think it's a good thing that rights holders fight for their rights. On the other hand the people who consume their products have rights also. This is just one of those issues that the more you debate, the more extreme the arguments get on both sides. I don't believe that any of us that post to TechDirt truly want to see IP laws gone altogether, any more than the rights holders want more complete and monopolistic rights over their content. A balance should be struck, but the way the laws have evolved they are used more like a club to beat down others rather than to protect the creators. IP laws were not prepared for the internet, or vice versa. I think we all want to see a balance stricken so that the rights of the creators are more equal to the rights of the consumers. I can't speak for everyone here though, so I'll let Mike continue explaining.
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Apparently not very hard.
Try reading this very post.
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A nice comment like this is always a good ice-breaker for a discussion.
"Try reading this very post."
I did. I did not find it to be any different than previous articles stating in essence the whole idea is a waste of time becaue content providers refuse to adopt business practices consistent with your economic views. While it may be difficult to accept, the law does treat digital content as property, and in the final analysis nothing will change in any way you deem significant until the law reflects your view that property should only embrace physical goods. Because property is a concept in large measure dependent upon law, I do not see the current view changing anytime soon.
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If you're looking for "an article authored by techdirt stating that such an offer has been extended to WMG and the schools", how about this, the last line of the above article:
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We're still more than willing to help facilitate such a conversation."
Noted, but my comment concerned contacting Mr. Griffin directly.
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I'm really confused now. We've done that as well.
Yet, you indicated we had to have done it publicly on the blog.
So which is it. Were we supposed to have reached out to him directly (we have) or via the blog (we have).
Either way, you claimed we had not when we had.
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Perhaps you mentioned this in an earlier post, but I do not recall reading in any of the posts that you had already contacted him personally.
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I'm sorry. You expected me to list out all of my email contacts somewhere on the blog? Really?
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Given your own repeated insults directed at me and anyone who disagrees with you, I think my comment was, in fact, quite nice.
On top of that, I think it's also accurate. You said that nowhere had we offered to take part in the conversations, and I pointed out that in this very post we did.
Given that it seemed rather obvious that you were wrong, and I had even pointed it out in an earlier comment, it seems quite accurate that you are not trying very hard.
I'm sorry if you felt the comment was unkind, but it was merely a response to your apparently inability to read this post.
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If either one of those things was pertinent to the conversation and I wasn't sure of the answer, I would ask instead of casting aspersions and making myself look like an ass.
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Also, you must just sit on this site cause you are very often the first responder.
I believe in IP rights. I do not believe in tax everyone because of a few abusers. This is highway robbery and shows everyone that Warner, et al, are no better than common thieves.
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this is the problem
Here's a little gem I pulled out from Warner's response to techdirt
"Therefore, we are undertaking an effort to develop new voluntary business models that seek something other than - and we believe, better than - a litigation-based approach."
Based on this, I would wager that a way to get more universities to sit down at the table would be to quit suing. Otherwise, how is the rationale actor to believe Warner or the RIAA will carry through on their promises?
It's something of a dilemma, because Warner and the RIAA aren't exactly in sync, so no matter what Warner said I wouldn't necessary take it as scripture.
Moreover, even if they did get in accord, I wouldn't trust that would do what they say they will. Past actions indicate that would be a poor choice.
Look at it like this, would you trust someone not to knock you on the head and take your wallet, if they were currently whacking other people on the head and taking their wallets. Even if they were assuring you that they weren't going to do it to you?
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Die In A Fire!
NOT 1 CENT!
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Its not like Warner Bros is hurting for money, they just can't get enough. Its sad when such a large company only cares about money and will sue people for enjoying art work. And I would mildly agree with *IAA if some of the money they get actually goes to the artists, hell artists don't even make much money from albums as record labels horde it all. This is truly a confused organization and I feel bad for any artist that has to play by their terms.
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Warner's relationship with the RIAA...
"Does your dog bite?"
"No"
Reaches to pet dog and almost loses a hand...
"I thought you said your dog does not bite!"
"That is not my dog."
If I were a school, I think I'd keep my distance from both Warner and the RIAA.
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Your headline should be "RIAA continues to target thieves." Quit Bitching and write your congressman if you don't like the law.
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Wouldn't it make sense that the people who do the stealing pay, not just everyone?
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This is precisely why everyone should be revolting about this idea/trial/test/highwayrobbery.
The RIAA could very well choose to increase album prices across the entire industry in an attempt to fight piracy... it would be a catastrophic failure. They know it, and thats why they haven't.
The rest of the clueless masses need to figure it out. If the infinite good (digital recordings) cannot be protected by increasing the pricing on those buying limited goods (the actual CD) then the model is failing.
Would any of us pay $32 per CD in order to help the RIAA recover costs on fictional 'lost sales' due to piracy? I certainly would not.
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Unfortunately, you are probably foretelling the future here. The online gaming market has already seen several changes that are directed specifically at eliminating the secondary markets for the game. "Spore" for instance was sold with DRM that is deliberately designed to do that, not to prevent theft or piracy.
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Re: hah
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Dollar Auction?
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liek mah moosic skils?
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wait...huh? why are we charging the schools anyways?
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Taxation without representation...
This is one more area where the RIAA just refused to not admit that one stolen/pirated album does NOT TRANSLATE into one lost sale. They know this for truth, it is truth they are manipulating to get more money from people who would not have chosen to spend their money on those products. Many college students pirate music they would not, or could not, buy.
That realization makes the purpose of this scheme obvious: by taxing the masses without representation they intend to get more money than they would have through normal sales to the few. The rest of the masses would not have purchased the product.
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Re: Taxation without representation...
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You should do exactly that. I have no faith that you will get a satisfactory response, but it would be fair if you did get those charges removed.
As for "a lecture on theft v. infringement" you know very well the two do not correlate perfectly due to finite versus infinite goods. Someone stealing CDs out of a store versus stealing clothing is a direct comparison, and the CD prices have probably risen to adjust for that just as clothing prices have. The major difference there, is that a CD is not being stolen when someone pirates digital files; whether or not it is taking something you did not pay for, it has a very different effect on the industry's bottom line.
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Just a shitty way to do business and attack students.
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It's a fine Luke !!!
It is a fine based upon the presumption that those asked to pay have indeed commited infringement. Where is the due process? People are falsely accused everyday, but they have recourse. In this case, the fine is made part of your participation in an activity, be it higher education or accessing the internet. You are guilty by association, and I call bullshit.
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Its too late.
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What Music?
Come sail away, come sail away, come sail away with meeeeee!
www.thepiratebay.org
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riaa and directv
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The riaa does not make music and therefore owns none, and as well the warner group cannot tell the world much less the US what they can or cannot do with a plastic disc that was payed for.
In the warner group and the riaa's eyes they would like everyone to pay for every single copy AND every time it gets played worldwide!! good fucking luck db's.
Unfortunately for them they are not dictators and the internet is not something they, or anyone, much less the pos's that call themselves gov. in the US can control.
So take your laws and shove them as far as you can up your you know what.
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