Some Georgetown Profs Want To Ban Laptops In Class
from the get-over-it dept
Some professors at Georgetown University, like some from other schools, are banning students from using laptops in their classes, blaming the devices for students not paying attention in lectures. Lots of students these days use laptops to take notes, and plenty use laptops to amuse themselves during class, particularly with the proliferation of WiFi on college campuses. But it's hard to see how this is really any different than previous generations, who were forced to allay their boredom without electronic devices.When I was an undergrad, we only had the student newspaper with which to keep ourselves occupied, and the crossword puzzle was a popular pursuit, and I don't remember too many calls from professors to ban the newspaper because of that. If a student doesn't want to pay attention, they're not going to pay attention and be engaged in the class, with or without the laptop; that's no reason for professors to prevent students who use laptops for notetaking or other legitimate pursuits from doing so. Some professors seem really hung up on the idea of forcing people to pay attention and to care about the classes they teach, a feeling I've never really understood. Spending time playing games with uninterested students wastes the time of the interested ones, and if a student is really paying that little attention, it will come back and bite them at some point. Furthermore, if students surfing the web during class is such a huge problem, why are universities installing WiFi networks in classrooms?
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Filed Under: georgetown, laptops. classrooms
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Banning Newspapers
It was Wednesday and the student newspaper was published on Wednesdays.
I sat there reading the newspaper until I felt a tap on my shoulder from a professor sitting in the last row. He told me to put the paper down and pay attention.
I folded the paper and walked out. Never to return to Chem lecture again.
I did get an A in the class though.
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Re: Banning Newspapers
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You paid for the right to attend the class, not disrupt it.
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How in Gods name does reading a newspaper disrupt a class?
How in Gods name is reading a newspaper any different than reading a text book.
Listen I'm willing to admit that a kid playing with his newspaper can be distracting and should be asked to leave. But that's not the discussion we're haveing, and not what the original poster said was happening.
And in my day when someone abandons common since and over complicates an issue, or attempts to dance around semantics, we call that dumb.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
From the original comment, "I sat there reading the newspaper until I felt a tap on my shoulder from a professor sitting in the last row. He told me to put the paper down and pay attention." Notice the "newspaper" part and the "put the paper down" part? You know, that's the thing about Techdirt, the comments are there for everybody to see. It makes it kind of hard to deny them. But if you're going to stoop that low, I'm not wasting my time with you any more.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
Christ you idiot; remember this sentence,
And in my day when someone abandons common since and over complicates an issue, or attempts to dance around semantics, we call that dumb.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
Hmm, the version of Techdirt I'm getting here doesn't show that "out of everyone's view" part of the original comment at all. In fact, it specifically mentions someone sitting behind him instead. If wonder if Mike knows that different versions of Techdirt are going out to different readers. He ought to get that fixed right away.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
And in my day when someone abandons common since and over complicates an issue, or attempts to dance around semantics, we call that dumb.
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You should have known that you had already lost when you resorted to lying. Especially when everyone could see that you were.
And in my day when someone abandons common since and over complicates an issue, or attempts to dance around semantics, we call that dumb.
So, the truth is just a matter of "semantics" for you, huh? No kidding. And by the way, it really takes a special kind of "dumb" to tell whoppers like you do when everyone can read what was really written for themselves.
You do know that you can't erase these archives, don't you? So what are you going to do, nymshift?
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Re: Banning Newspapers
Then you did the right thing. You still passed the class and you weren't there distracting the other students who wanted to be there.
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Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
Huh? You really can't imagine such a thing? You've got to be kidding me. College students can be very creative that way. Constantly folding, unfolding it, holding it up so people behind them can't see past, etc., etc.. There are many ways. But it's not up to you to decide. It's up to the instructor. Just because you paid tuition doesn't make you his "boss".
God, does this entire country lack common since.[sic]
Talk about a lack of common sense.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
But quietly reading a paper is in no way distracting, and as the customer you are the boss in principal at least. There are terms to the contract you agreed to when you purchased the service of being taught in a class; but you have certain rights in a college setting, one of which is to attend your class providing only you don't violate official school rules or degrade the others right to paying attention. Which in this case didn't happen! Teachers can't just make up ruls as they go along!
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And I fully realize that you will never understand my point.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
Please continue, I'm very intrigued on where this line of logic will go seeing as how you are so adamant about it. And how I so obviously lack common since. Please attempt to defend your position with debate instead of argument. You never know, I might learn something.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Banning Newspapers
Most colleges (not all) treat students as students. They are not the boss of any professor, and they are not "customers." And the instructor is in charge of the classroom, so they do indeed get to make the rules in their own classroom or lecture hall. I've had instructors who insisted we sit in assigned seats; although most of us found it rather juvenile, we obeyed because we were obligated to, per the rules of the University. Students aren't in charge of classrooms, simply because that would lead to total anarchy. You simply can't have everyone in the room doing whatever the hell they please. It IS the professor's class, like it or not, and the professor alone is in charge, not the students.
usmcdvldg, I suggest you actually GO TO a college, maybe spend some time seeing how colleges and universities actually operate, and maybe learn English as a first language. It's just common SENSE. Maybe you'll learn the difference between their, they're and there, and you're and your, too. Speculating from a position of ignorance doesn't look good on you.
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Assigned seating is not the same thing as we're discussing, and yes you can't do anything you want in a class. If you actually did goto college then I'm sure there were some provisions in the rules of the institution(I say this because I doubt it was a reputable university) you attended for this.
Or perhaps the teacher got away with not treating you as an adult simply because you lacked the balls to assert yourself. Point being of the two Universities I have attended I was treated as an adult both times! Had I not been I would have switched universities.
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There's about 10 - there are not there is
And it's also interesting that you switched from "newspapers are distracting" to a teach can do whatever he wants. This simply isn't true and isn't worth debating. I'm still interested in hearing about newspapers being distracting.
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I told him no. I paid for the class so I could spend the time doing as I liked provided it did not disrupt other students. I also informed him that I really was trying to stay awake, but it seems like I was the only one working to make myself doso.
In a High school setting It is understandable to ban distracting electronic equipment, but when you get to the collegite level where studets are old enough to decide for themselves - let them. If your a professor and your really worried about people not paying attention, how about making your lecture interactive (and therby not a lecture anymore) - Who really lectures to an unintirested crowd anyway?
(Also perhaps another reason a professor's pay shouldn't be merit based. But we'll leave that for another time)
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Re:
You do realize that the difference between a HS student and a college student is frequently nothing more than three months, right?
My friend described it best, "College is just like high school; except you have to live in your locker."
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College students are the consumers and they're paying huge dollars to be there. I think both they and the teachers forget that sometimes.
The professors are essentially employed by the student and shouldn't care what the student does so long as he's not disrupting others.
On the flip side, if a teacher doesn't show up for a class the students shouldn't get excited that they get an hour and a half off, they should get pissed because they paid for that class and now they're not getting it.
College is big money and should be treated as such by all involved.
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I guess you've never seen the price of some private high schools then. And the public school property taxes can be significant is some places too.
"College students are the consumers and they're paying huge dollars to be there."
Ditto for some high school students. You're still not making any points.
"I think both they and the teachers forget that sometimes."
I think that some students forget that there are other students in class too, sometimes.
"The professors are essentially employed by the student and shouldn't care what the student does so long as he's not disrupting others."
Ahh, but that's the point. Who says what's disruptive? The professor. And if the professor thinks that people clacking away on keyboards, playing videos and games and such in class is disruptive, then so be it. I've even seen professors tell classes to put their paper notebooks away. You're paying for the privilege to attend that class, not to run it. There is a difference.
"On the flip side, if a teacher doesn't show up for a class the students shouldn't get excited that they get an hour and a half off, they should get pissed because they paid for that class and now they're not getting it."
You must be thinking about high school again. Attendance in all my college classes was optional (the profs never even conducted roll calls). The only time I've ever seen college students glad that a prof didn't show up was when there was an exam scheduled, and even then some of them were upset.
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If a kid goes to a private HS then it is there parents lose, and they would probably expect there kids teachers to make some effort to enforce there participation. In the case of public school The difference is that society as a whole is paying for HS students to be schooled; and perhaps one day becoming a contributing member of society. Every moral effort should be made to force there full participation.
College is no different than paying for to see a ridiculously expensive movie and then being tested on it. If you choose to read a book during the movie that's your right. If your talking on the cell phone, someone will eventually tell you to leave. The professor doesn't say whats disruptive, It does have an actual definition that is not as open to interpretation as you believe. It's not the Professors class, it's the students. A college student is paying for an education, if they choose to not take advantage of their purchase that's there prerogative.
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>and a college student is frequently nothing more than
>three months, right?
The difference tends to be ages 18, which makes a lot of difference in terms of trying to tell people what they should be doing with their time.
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The diffrence is that society as a whole is paying for HS students to be schooled; and perhaps one day becomeing a contributing member of society. Every moral effort should be made to force there full participation.
A college student is paying for an education, if they choose to not take advantage of their purchase that's there prerogative.
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that's "if you're a professor..."
Perhaps you should've slept less and paid attention, more?
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But..
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Re: But..
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No wonder so many are on laptops. I didn't have a laptop in college, and I paid attention to the classes that interested me.
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But... But... Bans Always Work!
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nerd alert!
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Not Haunting
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Banning Laptops
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I've had professors tell me that they don't like laptops because they can't tell if their students are paying attention or understanding the material as well when they're using one.
Plus,I know in some of the classes where I use my laptop for notes, sometimes the people around me get distracted by the noise of me typing and/or what's up on my screen.
So I don't really see anything wrong with professors banning laptops anymore than I see problems with professors being allowed ban other distractions like cell phones(which are really annoying if they ring in class, even on silent)or to decide on their own grading/attendance/participation policies.
And excluding wireless from classrooms isn't really reasonable because in most cases that would mean excluding entire buildings from the wireless network, which would massively inconvenience students (since there are frequently study rooms and student lounges in the same buildings as classrooms) for something most people don't consider a problem.
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But i believe that at a certain point in life you need to learn how to handle certain things. If you get so distracted by typing or a flashy screen that you can't continue to function, your going to live a really hard life! The same is true with cell phone ringing, they aren't reasonably banned from classrooms because no one could possibly function with a cell phone going off, but because its just ridiculously rude.
Its a matter of common curtsy. How much more distraction is the ring of a cell phone than a load sneeze or cough.
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As far as a cell phone ring being more distracting, it depends entirely on the phone. They are usually louder, but easily ignored if you have the self-discipline to do so.
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That's probably because most students know better, but how many classes did you have with usmcdvldg? You're not one and the same, are you?
(Is usmcdvldg supposed to be short for United States Marine Corps Devil Dog?)
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What I meant was just the ring, there are many teachers that will make a huge deal over phones not being on silent. Some will stop class itself and make much more of a distraction than a ring ever would. The ring is not that distracting, especially if the person turns it off right way. But it's taboo, not because its distracting but because it is rude.
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Thats america
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bad professors
On the flip side is bad students too, but it goes both ways. If you can't find a way to make your classes engaging and interesting then you are not doing your duty as a teacher which is not to teach, but to instill the desire to learn in your pupils.
Is it really that hard to have hands on stuff, or things where people aren't sitting down all day? I mean jesus, some people think its their duty to read a 30 page thesis over the course of an hour and expect students to take notes and not fall asleep.
There is not a single subject, math, theory and quantum physics included, that is completely hands-off.
I blame teachers far more than students. Students will fail on their own if they're going to do so. It's important for a teacher to be up with the times on what they're teaching. Also, just because a class involves the basics, doesn't mean there's an excuse to make it boring.
It's in the same concept as the music industry, same people, same problem: if you don't give a reason for people to have captive interest, then they won't. Period.
CMU is an amazing school and guess what? Almost 100% of their work is hands on. Many times, the work is real world applying of things and they are now at the foreground of development of new technology as a result. I seem to remember an article the other day about new games being made where the basic "project" for the term was to create your own computer business.
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Re: bad professors
The Point of having a teacher is to verify that someone was actually exposed to and learned the information. And to have someone available that understands the information well enough to break it down in the case of confusion, or to elaborate on the intricacies of a subject in order to foster better understanding.
In college, its not the teachers job to be interesting, but to explain the information in an understandable manner. I agree that A "Hands on/ interactive" learning environment is better than a lecture/text book one(in most cases, some people learn differently than others). But College is big business, nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: Re: bad professors
I love this thread -- the loudest guy on here (or, in your words, the "load"est guy) is clearly the least educated. Are you spitting on yourself while you type this drek?
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Laptops, & texting, & twitters, oh my!
Where I have a problem is when we believe that their typing indicates they are taking notes on the lecture materials or slides, but when we advance to the next slide, the calls come out for, "Can you go back one? I didn't get that all down," especially when there were only three short points on the slide. Or my favourite high-school utterance, "Awwwwww!!!" Really, you couldn't manage to type fifteen words in the five minutes spent discussing it?
We let students know that it's THEIR responsibility to take their own notes, so if they would rather chat on Facebook/MSN/Twitter or bid on eBay during lecture, they can download the audio recording and listen to it all over again.
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maybe no regulation needed
On the other hand, this shouldn't necessarily be regulated. There's a really easy way to take care of this, and that is to simply give an F for poor performance, which is likely to result if you're not paying attention. If somebody still can perform well without paying attention, more power to them. And there are many classes that actually do use the internet, so banning wifi in college isn't the answer, either.
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time honored tradition
It's never the student's fault. They are just innocent victims of the evil teachers.
This is hilarious!
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Re: time honored tradition
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too easy
My 400 level web development class for example - I did all of the assignments and the final project in the first 2 hour lecture, and got an A on them. We'd have to do presentations and such, and for some reason attendance counted, so I'd show up and play desktop tower defense.
Same for Discreet math. The room was basically a faraday cage, so I stopped bringing my laptop. I'd eat breakfast than sleep. The professors would snake around the room with each question he asked. when it was my turn he'd wake me up, and I'd answer the question before going back to bed.
The problem here isn't laptops, it's boring and easy classes.
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Laptops are not evil
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Teachers: DO YOUR OWN JOB
It's the students job to learn.
If they don't learn, they get poor grades.
If the teacher doesn't want to grade a student on their performance, why are they teaching? The fact that some students use laptops in calls is THEIR choice, making it harder for them is not the way to get them to learn.
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back row
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Re: back row
except in this day and age, its not unreasonable expect someone to be able to pay attention while ignoreing a screen. Ever try driving through times square?
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Laptops Nie!
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I honestly believe its the class size of most modern colleges that is one of the biggest problems since there is almost no student-teacher interaction it gets boring fast. That is part of the reason I chose to go do a college such as DeVry where in a class of 15 students the teacher knows you by name, makes the whole class interactive and fun, and I learn a whole hell of a lot more.
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First, paid class or not, teachers have absolute discretion on conduct in their classroom, providing they're not asking you to do something illegal. Second, even if the teacher couldn't force you to leave the room, by you doing so in the CLASS (A PLACE TO "LEARN") as opposed to say a BED (A PLACE TO "SLEEP") makes you a class-A jerk by 90% of people's definition of rude. Please get a clue.
b. Lacking education or knowledge; unlearned.
(source: thefreedictionary.com/rude)
You were sleeping, so you couldn't learn.
On the subject of laptop bans, I don't see it being reasonable to ban them, but if I heard you typing all the time, and then constantly asking me to repeat myself, I'd laugh in your face.
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Re:
But to imagine a teacher as an all powerful god inside of a class room is just retarded. And to expect an adult not to demand certain rights after forking over 10's or 100's of thousands of dollars is too.
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Maybe its the American University system thats at fault?
While studying in the UK she made a habit of skipping many lectures (as students tend to do), but upon reaching the US discovered that the penalties for doing so without good cause generally meant being dropped from the particular module.
So instead she dutifully goes to every single one of her lectures...and spends the whole time on facebook.
The result seems to be lecture halls crowded with students with no real interest in learning, and I can't say I blame the lecturers for finding the students rude and the situation frustrating.
The moral of this story is simply, you can lead a horse to water but not make her drink.
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Undergrads
When you apply to a Master's or Doctoral degree program you are asking to be taken seriously. And in many cases, if you do well on your GRE, have a good academic record and good letters of support, you can get an assistanceship; you get to work in your chosen field as a research or teaching assistant in return for your tuition and a stipend, usually enough to live on as a student. And you start to get taken seriously by other professionals.
Undergraduate education has been dumbed down so far that a student has to work hard at not getting a passing grade. And you wonder why professional academics hate to be stuck trying to educate a room full of dull, young minds?
There is a world out there that many of you will never know; the world of educated people. Some of you know exactly what I'm talking about. For the rest of you, ask the Asian kid trying to teach you "Intro to Calc" what his academic experience has been like. It will be an eye opener for you. I doubt it will change you, but it might give you some perspective on what it takes to become "educated".
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Re: Undergrads
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Second, even if the teacher couldn't force you to leave the room, by you doing so in the CLASS (A PLACE TO "LEARN") as opposed to say a BED (A PLACE TO "SLEEP") makes you a class-A jerk by 90% of people's definition of rude. Please get a clue.
b. Lacking education or knowledge; unlearned.
(source: thefreedictionary.com/rude)
You were sleeping, so you couldn't learn.
On the subject of laptop bans, I don't see it being reasonable to ban them, but if I heard you typing all the time, and then constantly asking me to repeat myself, I'd laugh in your face.
If the "USMC" part of your handle implies US Marine Corp. then you have much to answer to here. An honorable person doesn't sleep through his education and then make excuses about it. Spare me.
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But most importantly I haven't slept through an education, and if i did, I sure as hell wouldn't complain or make excuses about it. I was commenting on principal alone. I have been to many lower level classes that I didn't need to go to but went just encase the teacher mentioned something out of book that I didn't already know. usually I'd sit quietly in the back and text friends or surf the internet on my phone. And if someone told me I couldn't do that in a useless class i was paying thousands of dollars for just so i could move on, I'd tell them to shove it up there *ss.
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My old math teacher
He was way ahead of his time, because I don't know of any modern digital watch that announces the hour with a beep any more.
--GJ--
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Paid w/ blood sweat and tears
Like USMCDVLDG up above, I have served in the military and recognize that there is a chain of command I can use and I would take that professor and go talk to those people above him or her, especially since said knuckleberry is working for me in essence and not the other way around. I am not a child and this is not 13th-20th grade of extended high school where s/he can act as a little dictator in his/her classroom. Especially since I am more likely than not paying a metric dooky-ton of money for the class.
To you haters up above regarding the teacher's side, I've been there and realize that if a person does not want to participate in a class, let them take themselves out. They will either rectify their learning gaps or be self-eliminated because of their underwhelming attention to class and details. Once again, it is about business, and the university is no different than any other business out there. Meet your contractual agreement or refund my money.
Nuff Said and quit yer bitchin' about it. Now get back to studying!
Tom La Bomba
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Re: Paid w/ blood sweat and tears
absolutely agree. for instance, if i want to surf porn and beat my meat right there in class, then that's my prerogative. kinda like a "combat jack". i'm paying for that class and the other students don't have to watch me if they don't want to. if they can't just ignore me then that's their problem for being so easily distracted.
"However, if some professor comes over and tells me to stop my activities when they are not bothering anyone else s/he and I will have words because will definitely get in his/her face right there in class."
got to agree again. especially if i was just about to get a nut. then i'd be really pissed.
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You get what you pay for...
After you have been called on several times in the course of not paying attention and been unable to answer, you start realizing that you are not getting what you paid for. If you really feel you must play solitaire in class, why bother to go at all? Oh, yeah. Many colleges automatically boot you out of a class if you neglect to attend.
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Re: You get what you pay for...
classes that you took in high-school or a different college that didn't transfer
classes that you taught yourself stuff in your free time (really common in programming classes where once you know the concepts each language is pretty much the same)
Classes that are very similar to other subjects you already know. (if you know behavioral psychology then sociology is a walk in the park)
general requirement classes that most people already know (intro to computers, things like that)
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Heavy woolen socks and thick carpeting
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The Right Use of Computers in Teaching.
The liberal arts graduate school norm, in a subject like History, or English, or Philosophy, or Anthropology, is that, in the first year of graduate school (the boot camp), the students take one two-hour seminar class a day, with an enrollment of 10-20 students, (a total workload of 60-70 hours/week, mostly reading); and then, in the second year, they move to one seminar class a week, while writing master's theses. First year law students, by contrast, take two classes a day, but the classes are bigger, and therefore less demanding. Either of these would of course have to be watered down for undergraduates, but the key word is _watered down_. The same kind of stuff, only not so much of it.
Incidentally, as a principle of ethics, PowerPoint is not a terribly good idea. If the teacher doesn't think things are important enough to write them out on the chalkboard each time, and doesn't want to make a hand-out sheet, it is not really fair to expect the students to write them down by hand.
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Re: The Right Use of Computers in Teaching.
I disagree, you can cover a lot more if you don't have to take time to write it down, it depends on the professor to properly take advantage of it though.
the Professor should also give a copy of the presentation to the students or make it available online
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...And to those of you that have responded along the lines that it is your "God Given Right" to entertain yourselves in the face of boring presenters/instructors, you might want to consider that this type of behavior can get you fired in corporate America. You may as well learn to deal with it now.
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In regards to part two, absolutely, Anything but full attention in a company meeting would be professional suicide. But if you've never been to a meeting where the ceo/president/manager/ however is in charge was talking on their cell phone, having a side conversation or just plain ignoring you, I would suggest you actually spend some time in corporate America before you comment on it. Guess what, he who signs the checks..................
The difference is the company is paying you as opposed to you paying the school.
Again, not to say that in a class you can do WHATEVER you want, but as an adult who has entered into one of, if not the biggest financial contract of your life, you do have some (legal/moral as opposed to god given) rights.
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No, they are not and nobody claimed that they were. They cannot order people executed or anything like that that "all powerful" kings can. But that's not what were talking here about so put that strawman back in your closet.
Schools do though let instructors eject disruptive students from the classroom. And they don't even attempt to list every possible disruptive behavior and variation thereof beforehand; to do so would be impossible and foolish. Instead, they leave it up to the instructor. If a student really thinks that an instructor is being unreasonable then they can appeal to administration and see how they get with them (but I've never seen this go in the student's favor). So, in the absence of some administrative override, the instructor determines what is disruptive to the class. As far as "getting up in the instructor's face and having words with them" is concerned, that's a good way to get the campus police involved, and not in a way that you're likely to like either. Getting up in people's faces may have worked for you in the marines, but civilized society is different. You really ought to work on those anger management issues before you wind up in a cell.
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there is a difference between being paid to do something (IE a job) and paying someone else to give you information (school). if they are going to grade on performance and going over stuff that I know, I reserve the right to read or do anything else I want in class as long as I am not disrupting other students.
If the Profs don't like that then they shouldn't grade on attendance or they should have more interesting course material.
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...happens in law school as well
Aside, this kind of thing can lead to some very serious problems: in one case, 90+ students' internet connections were erroneously blocked for multiple days; in another case, my wife could not access the internet on her WORK computer because she was working during the original scheduled class period (which was rescheduled) and the block is tied to your school login ID, NOT just wireless access.
If a school is going to implement this kind of blocking, they better hire some competent techs to manage it.
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HELLO
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llamas
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