Mileage Tax Idea Going National...
from the driving-while-intaxicated dept
After years and years of politicians in Oregon mentioning the idea, late last year reports came out that the state was seriously considering a mileage tax for drivers, involving attaching a GPS device to your car that would track how far you drove. Earlier this week, a similar idea popped up in Massachusetts, where it was amusingly called "faster, cheaper, simpler" despite it being none of the above when compared to a gas tax.But why waste time at the state level when you can go national?
Yes indeed, as a few readers have sent in, our new Transportation Secretary says he's open to the idea and (check out the timing!) a "blue-ribbon national transportation commission" is going to release a report next week recommending just such a system. It will involve installing a device on every car which tracks where you drive and when you drive -- so that they can also tax based on time of day (rush hour costs more!) or if you're taking highways or side streets. When you have a politician suggest such a thing just days before a "blue-ribbon panel" comes out with a paper on the idea, you know it's not idle speculation, but the deal has basically been agreed to. The "I'm thinking about it" comment is just the trial balloon for the legislation that is clearly already written and ready for introduction.
What's amazing is that all of those pushing for this idea apparently haven't paid attention to any of the massive backlash that comes around every time this idea is suggested at the state level. It's not "faster, cheaper, simpler." It would take quite a while to get this working, it's expensive and it's cumbersome -- especially compared to a gas tax. It also has the added downsides of getting people worked up over privacy issues and (bonus!) does little to encourage more fuel efficient driving or getting ourselves off foreign oil. Update: Mark sends in the news that the Obama administration is already saying it won't approve this idea.
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Filed Under: federal, mileage tax
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HEY
seriously though can't they just increase the gas tax and add a tax to new cars? or charge a tax based on your odometer?
Oh, and if anybody puts a gps receiver on my car I can just yank out a wire or a capacitor or something and render it useless. Then of course I claim it is defective and refuse to pay to fix it.
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Re: HEY
I'm pretty sure they'd find a way to put you in jail for that.
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no GPS, just use the ODOMETER
I would suggest that rather than a GPS, tracking which road you drive on and when you drive on it, that we simply use a much easier device...the odometer. At tax time we're required to certify our mileage for the last year, that in turn generates a tax amount based on vehicle type and weight. Localities can tax some based on it, states and feds too.
The gas tax is already done this way, everybody gets a piece. Instead of collecting at point of sale, just collect in the already existing manner of the tax code.
One additional line on the 1040 and state forms, no new payment scheme/bureaucracy, use what we already have.
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Re: no GPS, just use the ODOMETER
get rid of all other taxes and just TAX new TIRES. There will obviously be some variables that will have to be analyzed, but it would discourage peeling out, for every mile lost on the life of the tires costs much more.
Semi's wear out the road a lot more, but they have a lot more tires running at the same time. (they'd have to tax re-treading also)
simple..
no way to direct traffic, but if roads are smooth, tires will last longer.. oh.. then they'll have motivation (G-men) to let the roads go bad so they get more revenue.
:-)
but.. in principle, we should really have no taxes at all and have all privately owned roads.... oops. the nut-job in me has arisen..
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Re: Re: no GPS, just use the ODOMETER
I'd rather send in just the right amount, but thats just me.
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Re: HEY
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Re: HEY
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Re: HEY
Also I am not sure how it works in your state but in Ohio our Licensing fees on our vehicles pay for our wear and tear on the roads.
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Good, Redusced Taxes
Oh, and who's paying for these GPS thingies? And, if they go bad, get damaged, etc., who pays for replacement? Is there a grievence process if you want to dispute the numbers given? Are we billed monthly, at year end, part of income tax time? Do WE get to see the data transmitted or do we trust our government appointed bureau to be honest about the whole thing? What's the process for raising taxes: a national election with 2/3 majority or just some government official with a rubber stamp? How are the fund distributed: to states who then distribute to local governments? Do all taxes collected go to improving and maintaining infrastructure like they're supposed to now?
Gee, so many questions. I wonder if that blue-ribbon panel has already handled all that ... and all the ones I haven't gotten to yet?
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Whats next
I want to see them tax me for the millage i ride my bike. I'll stick the tires so far up where the sun don't shine it won't be funny.
All the money over the years collected from gas tax, was supposed to go for road repairs. But govt's just dwindled all their cash flow away. That's why they all have massive debt's now.
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Re: Whats next
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Why not simply raise taxes?
You raise the money you need, you still won't have as high prices as Europe and you encourage people to buy fuel-efficient cars.
Curiously, this is almost exactly a year to the day when Tony Blair responded to an e-petition on the same subject. He defended the idea by making clear that any form of road-pricing would be met with tax cuts else where, and that the real objective was to let the Government create a system of variable pricing on different roads to act as commuter incentives. This would allow them to tackle the rising problem of road congestion by getting people to use the transport network more efficiently.
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Re: Why not simply raise taxes?
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Rediculous
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Re: Rediculous
The problem is the commodity being taxed (gas) is going away; not soon, but it is going away. Therefore revenues from that tax will dwindle as demand continues to increase. Now you're left having to pull even more money from the general tax base to cover road maintenance.
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Re: Re: Rediculous
Well if consumer consuption of oil ever actually goes down we might need to consider another tax, but we should be ok for another 10 years or so. Also I would think passing the tax from this commodity on to whatever replaced it would make perfect sense? If the revenue dwindles from this tax, then maybe we could consider a more equitable distribution then taxing milage. After all someone who makes 100 million dollars a year is getting far more benefit from those roads (due to the percentage of commerce that must be moved to generate his income) then someone who makes 100,000 a year, regardless of what milage either themselve actually use.
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Re: Re: Rediculous
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Re:
What a bunch of bullshit.
Over my dead body!
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Using technology to make a simple problem hard
However, last I checked, most cars have this lovely thing called an odometer that keeps track of the number of miles you drive. Most states also require some sort of annual inspection for you to drive on public roads. Why not just have the inspectors report your odometer reading when you get your inspection? No privacy issues, no expensive breakable gadgets, no high costs. The state can send you a bill or you can pay it when you get your inspection. It doesn't matter if anyone puts off their inspection because your paying for the number of miles since your last inspection, so you're just digging a deeper hole. Plus, once your inspection expires, you now get a ticket for tax evasion as well.
But that wouldn't give them something that can track your every move, or use fancy technology, so it couldn't possible pass. Makes to much sense.
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Re: Using technology to make a simple problem hard
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Re: Re: Using technology to make a simple problem hard
We just need to make sure we point out the current system doesn't do that now anyway.
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Town is broke, solution is to break its citizens, YEAH, That makes ALOT of snse.
ID10T error!
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I bet Pelosi will be all over this.
Up next...nanny state.
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Same old tricks
New Boss meet the old boss new boss.
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It's all about control. Of course it would be easier and cheaper to just double the gas tax, or slap up a few toll booths or shift the majority or government workers to second and third shift (that would take care of the congestion problem overnight).
Nope, the govn't wants to know where you are at all times. Not only the govn't but insurance companies, private business, and don't forget the lawyers who would use the data against you in civil suits.
The govn't will gladly spend obscene amounts of money to gain more control over your life.
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Think of the poor insurance companies!
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stupid idea
Can't the government just stop wasting trillions on other things and leave the gas prices alone?
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Re: stupid idea
The Mister already gets taxed thrice on what his company brings in, not withstanding what he has to pay for everything else. He does his part already: he pays for all the taxed fuel he uses in those trucks.
Actually what gets me is why anyone is even entertaining this idea when simpler upticks in taxes or registration and inspection or toll fees would accomplish the same thing without needing new systems and required hardware.
If it's just about money, that is.
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HOT is in play now
State governments already have issues with taxes from gas going back to the counties for road improvements/maintenance. The smaller rural counties benefit from those counties that have big cities, counties with big cities want more of the revenue spent on their infrastructure. Would this tax fix this issue? Doubtful. Believing this kind of tax would force people to use other means of transportation (buses/train) requires these services to be in place. These services are in place but not acquittal to the need.
Help us if they leave the gas tax in place and add this mileage tax on top of it.
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Just to be clear
And oh yeah, the Obama administration has shot this down.
"President Obama's transportation department slapped down a suggestion by its own secretary Friday that the government tax motorists based on how many miles they drive rather than how much gasoline they burn. "
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Hmmm
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Re: Hmmm
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Speed Control and Traffic cams
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I like it.
The odometer suggestion seems like a good one, but it fails when you think about people who live near state lines, and frequently cross them. And what if you drive up into Canada or down into Mexico? You shouldn't be taxed for those miles by the state, or the fed. gov. So GPS solves that problem. And as an added benefit, your taxes can go directly to the exact roads you drive on.
So, yes. Its more complicated than a gas tax, but its a better system for applying the taxes properly.
Privacy issues? These concerns probably come from the same people who are worried about the toll booth passes being monitored. I speed 80 mph on the highway at all times. The toll booth reflects my speeding. I've never gotten a ticket from my ez-pass tag. Nor has anyone else that I've heard of. Have you heard of anyone actually getting a ticket this way? Seems like a non-issue, given the history with this similar system. The gov't doesn't care about where you go, so long as you pay for it.
Other countries paying more taxes than us in the states? *shrugs* Complain to your government. Don't try and make my situation worse because you let yours get so crappy. Maybe if we get this system in place, and get it working well, you can petition your gov't to put something similar in place and save you some tax money?
My only true concern with this would be a) They impliment this and don't eliminate the gas tax. Effectively double-dipping on me for my driving habits. And b) the money that is collected doesn't get distributed properly, and ends up funding something besides road maintenance.
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Re: I like it.
But this doesnt accomplish that. My little italian two seater causes very little wear and tear on the roads (although it does consumer a good amount of gas). A family friend who owns a concrete company however, has several giant concrete mixer trucks, which even though they may not travel very far, cause an enormous amount of wear and tear on the roads.
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Re: Re: I like it.
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[Quote Gibbs(Press Sec)]
Not Gonna Happen!
[/Quote]
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yep
Not to mention, I bet they'll do this, create a database on every car's whereabouts, AND not drop the gas tax.
Suckers. Born every day.
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Re: yep
0? None at all? After they establish this mileage tax, gas will then be free and plentiful, and extracting, processing and burning it will not cause any harm to the environment any more? And we won't have to buy it from potentially hostile foreign countries? Because all of those things are incentives for more efficient cars.
So if all those go away.... GREAT!
But perhaps you mean there would be somewhat less incentive for more efficient cars.
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How do you expect to get EVERY car in the ENTIRE COUNTRY from EVERY PERSON who owns one to WILLINGLY go get this thing put on their car?
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Re:
By having an alternative flat usage tax of $2000/year* if you don't get one installed.
* insert made-up ludicrous number that would convince all but the most tinfoil-hat-wearing government conspiracy nut jobs to prefer the GPS device
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Technologically a challenge
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Failed tax models
Ignoring the elephant-in-the-room named privacy, it's ludicrous to attempt taxing based on time of day and route taken, because, though the principle seems appropriate, it's unlikely that the monies gathered would be distributed proportionally.
Rural areas would be hurt significantly because they wouldn't receive as much money for repairs, or it would be prohibitively expensive to drive in those areas as the taxes required would be much higher than in the cities.
The question of infrastructure to support this is another mark against it. How much of the tax would go to support the method of collection?
It wouldn't relieve congestion, just change when it happens. If it's suddenly very cheap to drive 1 hour before and after rush hour, people will simply shift to drive then (if their job is flexible). Then you are "unfairly" taxing those who cannot change when they drive.
Transportation industry will change. Truckers will flood the highways when it's cheap, adding to the congestion.
Politicians are attempting to force their revenue stream to stay open through law. Just raise the gas tax or check the mileage at registration time.
People figure out legal ways to pay less tax, and that would be the case here as well. I believe making taxes simpler and lower would increase revenues. Taxes should be simple. It's the government's job to take the pool of money and divide it equitably.
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Re: Failed tax models
That's the idea! Instead of having 100,000 cars on the road for 1 hour, you get 75,000 for one hour, and the other 25,000 join the 25,000 already spread out on either side of rush hour. Thus, less congestion. Made up numbers, obviously, but you get the point.
Maybe you're envisioning suddenly having 10,000 cars during "rush" hour (let's say 7-8) and the other 90,000 (plus the pre-existing 25,000 off-peak cars) are on the road from 6:30-7 and 8-8:30. But only a huge difference in on/off peak tax rates would cause that. If it costs 25 cents a day more to drive during rush hour, most people are just going to eat that. And that's a pretty big differential when multiplied by number of drivers and days in a year.
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Re: Re: Failed tax models
Flextime can help a little, but making it easier to relocate without loosing investment on housing would be a far better alternative than any of this.
Of course the best alternative would be to eliminate the need to drive when not necessary by pushing telecommuting some of the time (Maybe every other week, or half weeks or something).
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No good Bastards
I would like to see what the founding fathers would say about this quasi socialist pool of corruption and ineptitude that the goverment has morphed into.
Jerks with ideas like this are going to run our country into the ground..... oh wait were already there
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Yet another tax.
And yes, it's MY MONEY.
--
www.chl-tx.com
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Re: Yet another tax.
How do you compare to your pals at http://www.chl-plus.com ?
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open a Swiss bank account while you can
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Perfect Storm
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There is an epidemic of stupidity in the world and politicians are the most infected, it seems...
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So Why couldn't they just apply a mileage tax when you register your tag every year? You have to give the mileage.
Oh yeah, thats right, its all about control.
Baaaa. Baaaa. Baaa. Is that sheep I hear?
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"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." Jefferson
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I have a better idea
Privacy issues.
Does little to encourage more fuel efficient driving.
Get ourselves off foreign oil.
Step 1: As Robert Gibbs mentioned today, don't fund pet projects like this.
Step 2: Make up budget shortfalls by taxing fueling stations on a per tanker basis, which must, at retail, must cost consumers 10¢/gallon more per gallon for fuel originating from non-North American sources.
This will drive up the cost of foreign dependence, encourage fueling stations to convert to more profitable hydrogen/electric fueling stations, and by eliminating the pet project, the privacy issue will disappear.
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Re: I have a better idea
Im not sure protective tarrifs for Exxon Mobil will really do much to help consumers.
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They just need to cross their databases...this is the real problem with government, it's so unorganized one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.
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tinfoil.
The real question is how does the government plan on accessing this gps data. Gps is received not broadcast, they still need a way to send this data to the government. Are we going to pay monthly cellular charges as well?
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Re: tinfoil.
It could be rigged to think it's parked in your garage while your driving around. There could be an entire industry that comes from something like this!
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Mileage tax
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Obama Admin
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Google Mileage View
Type in a license plate number and view that person's driving history!
Don't worry, nobody will misuse the data. And it's not like it's private. Somebody could just follow you around every day and post it on their own website, right?
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Idiots...
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I think I can..
GO PIRATE BAY!!! Fight the Powers!
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Another Really Bad Idea
There would be a rather large list consisting of politicians and their families, police and families, COE types, etc, etc
Wasn't there a news item not too long ago about a list in CA that identified those who could travel toll free, would not be pulled over for speeding, and other stuff ...
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So I shall say it.
This proposed law is unenforceable. :D
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this is dumb
besides it clearly not able to work due to privacy and cost- I'd just break the damn gps. What then?? its not like I'm required by law to drive, so how will they know I'm off the grid? unless they throw some more big brother tech in, which would further ensure that this system would never come to exist.
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Mileage Tax Idea Going National...
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Damn
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Mileage tax
1. It is a regressive tax (something like a flat tax).
2. But since low gas mileage luxury cars are likely to belong to the wealthy, it shifts more of the burden to the middle class.
3. It lets the oil companies (BIG business) lower gas prices, while increasing the underlying price they charge (when a tax is removed, they raise their price, but the overall price goes down).
BUT, it increases campaign funds to the WOW party - what's not to like?
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National Mileage/Gas tax
All that's needed is a simple readout of a car's mileage stored in a black box, taken in motion at state lines or various points around the state.
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Critical Infrastructure
Even if I do not use the roads ... I still get a benefit from their existence
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Talk about big brother
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