EFF: Obama DOJ's Warrantless Wiretapping Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's
from the wow dept
On the issue of warrantless wiretapping, we've never been given a clear explanation by anyone why it makes sense to allow the government to totally skip over the warrant process. The warrant process is there for a clear reason: to prevent abusive power by the government. No one is saying that the government can't issue wiretaps. They just want the gov't to get it reviewed and approved by a court. And, there isn't even an issue of urgency, since the government has the right, in extreme cases, to wiretap first, and get the warrant soon after. Many people hoped that with the Obama administration, things would change, and we'd finally move away from the warrantless wiretapping program, which by any basic definition, violates the 4th Amendment.Apparently not. The EFF has an analysis of the new Justice Department in trying to get one of the warrantless wiretapping cases dismissed, noting that the new administration appears to be taking an even more extreme position than the previous administration (which was already quite extreme). Basically, the motion to dismiss claims that the government "is completely immune from litigation for illegal spying -- that the Government can never be sued for surveillance that violates federal privacy statutes." It's difficult to see how anyone could square that with the 4th Amendment, and hopefully the court will suggest the Administration's top lawyers reread the Constitution.
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Filed Under: doj, obama, warrantless wiretapping
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Maybe...
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Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Messiah, indeed.
I love it when you Obama haters jump on the bad things done crying about how the country is going to hell... but if a good thing is done by him you say "Why do you think he's so great! he's hardly had time to do anything" Chill out, hasn't been a damn year yet. At least he hasn't done anything worse than Bush. Just doesn't lie as well when being a two faced jerk.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Also, stem cell research is closely linked to abortion. So lets kill a few children to make people walk again. Of course the children being killed would probably prefer to walk too.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Actual, stem cell research is tied to the left-over stem cells that are used from "tube babies". It always gets thrown away afterward. The idea behind the research is to use these cells because they're just going to waste when we could be saving lives with it. But of course, there are people that'll tell you it has to do with Abortions because they don't want stem cell research for whatever-the-reason-may-be.
And on a personal level, if stem cell research WAS tied with abortion, so be it. If someone truly wants to abort a child, they'll do it. They'll use a wire hanger to do it if all else fails. Might as well use the remains to make someone that did survive healthier.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Let me get this straight, killing a child should be legal so that women won't kill themselves attempting an abortion? I have never understood that argument. A woman that would kill a child deserves to live but the child doesn't? Sorry, but I don't see the logic.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Right Wing-pro-capital punishment, anti-abortion.
What an absurd hypocrisy to point out!
The life of a fetus is debatable, certainly not for the life of a mentally handicapped man in texas.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
His second point is (sorry to speak for you like this!) that abortions are going to happen. We, as a society, cannot choose that abortions will not happen - they're just inevitable, as they have been probably for as long as humans have existed. Our choices are to criminalize it, ensuring that 1) there are more unwanted babies born and 2) the rich will have their abortions done in other countries, and 3) the remaining abortions are the wire hanger or black market varieties; or ensure that it's legal and safe for those that choose to do it. Which do you think is a better outcome? Keep in mind the second option is compatible with anti-abortion education efforts.
Finally, to sum up the original argument: anyone opposed to abortion should also be opposed to in vitro fertilization, because it also destroys embryos.
Wow, this is off topic.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Why don't you spend some time reading about stem cell research before saying something that ridiculous.
Stem cell harvesting is done from fetuses that never would have become "walking children."
And how can you possibly claim Obama is responsible for the "Destruction of the Constitution" when we have had two separate era's of Bush senior and Bush junior walking all over our rights for profit.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
NAFTA which was championed by Bill Clinton and his girl Monica or is that Hillarious or Hillary... Bill Clinton is the only known president who was owned and operated by China.
Why do you think you can get an iPod for less than 500.00? Because we dont have to pay US wages. More and more, the "corporate bottom line" and their shareholders are more important than the taxpayer and you (those who pay no tax). It is much simpler to send the manufacturing jobs to China and Mexico because they work hard and for much less because they realize that menial labor like operating an impact wrench on an assembly line does not deserve 75k a year no matter how long you operate that impact wrench. I have many friends who believed that "payraises" were a right... Really? Just because you stand there year after year driving a broom on the shop floor and now you are entitled to what 4k more this year than last.. what happens after 25 years? You are now making over twice your starting salary to do the same work that you were happy to do at 18. Makes no sense. The job didn't change.
In any case, Clinton paved the way for huge job cuts, yes even the menial ones, with NAFTA.
We allowed him to do it and then loved him for Monica's dress... Not sure how he did it but he has a larger approval rating now than when he got out of office... LOL
Americans are really that shallow.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Second, even if they are squirreled away by feds rooting through the garbage cans at abortion clinics...should they be used as land fill or to help sick people.
I said GOOD DAY SIR!
Best
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Even though this was not a current issue... the vast majority of studies in fact show that if there is a discrepancy in pay between a man and woman of equal education AND experience, it's usually easily accounted for simply in another measurement of position value.
With no thought on the subject at all, so they are basically going to end up being moved either to another facility on the main land or released... not much of a solution.
Yes, because we all know fanaticism is trumped by negotiations. Maybe we can convince them to bomb more discriminantly?
WTF? He isn't promoting it and has no idea about the subject, he simply repealed the bans, which any of the possible new blood leaders would have.
Yes, because the fact they have hated us for decades was all due to the fact we didn't talk to them in a nice enough tone..
This thread isn't really the place for a debate, but I couldn't resist posting a brief response to such lunacy. This leader has done the same things of the last one with only a being done better and many more being done worse. All the same things the previous leader was criticized for, he is doing, and rather than justifying them, he is patting people on the head and telling them it's for their own good.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Don't forget, the only "ban" was on federal funding for new strains/cultures. There was no "ban" on research, nor was there a "ban" on continuing research based on pre-existing cell lines.
Repealing the "ban" is just another way to pump more federal (as on your) dollars into private industry.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
As for the original response to hegemon13... That was spoken like one of the tried and true brainwashed. Pull your head out of Obama's ass for a minute and look around.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
1) women equal pay - hmm, what exactly has he done?
2) closing Gitmo, oh wait still open, when they do close it releasing them into America (cause nobody else will take them) and giving them welfare, thanks i like paying for people to plot to blow me and the family up.
3) Opening Diplomatic channels, its call appeasment and didnt work well last time it was tried either (thanks Chamberlin).
4) Stem Cells.. not a bad thing, ill give him some credit..
5) Making the world not hate us, your right most humans feel sorry for the absolute Poor, which we will soon be, and theyll be happy cause they toppled us down, that'll be a good thing, oh wait sarcasm turn back on..
And now the TOPPER.... LARGEST DEBT IN HISTROY, 28% of the GDP to pay for a government that is becoming more socialist, beaurocratic, and extremist everyday... and the debt is going up to the point we cant even pay the interest much less the principle...
Plus taking rights away from Americans, Companies and all the rest... we are not children, and children can run things better than all the politcal haxs...BOTH SIDES...
So go keep drinking the Kool-aide, it wont kill you, YET
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Thats they way it has always been I would recommend looking up "money as debt".
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Why shouldn't the American public take care of people that were taken from their native country, held against due process without charge or conviction for half a decade, and tortured? This ties nicely into "making the world hate us." I wonder why that would be? Because America is a bully.
And making America poor? America has no idea what poor means. Take a look at any number of the nations America has exploited to achieve its wealth. And don't get me wrong, Canada and most other developed nations aren't much better. But you, sir, have no idea what poverty is.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Obama is simply trying to clean up Bush's mess. He hasn't generated the largest debt in history, he is simply trying to clean up the largest debt in history by attempting to re-jump-start the economy. I'd love to see you attempt to get the economy back on track without injecting trillions into it... just face it, since Bush became president your country has been on a complete downward spiral. Now you have a president that is trying to undo Bush's complete failures.
You complain about being bombed, but this wiretapping is supposed to help fight the cause. Do you really think they care to wiretap your sorry ass?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
1) STOP BAILING OUT PEOPLE THAT MADE BAD DECISIONS AND LET THEM FAIL
2) Elimate the TAX CODE - and implement the FAIR TAX, a national embedded sales tax - PEOPLE AND COMPANYS WOULD SPEND LIKE NEVER BEFORE and many companies would rush to come here too, no TAX Burden... OH and the sales tax would be on everything (no exceptions)...
Done and no trillions needed, oh and the debit goes away because of savings in administration costs and IRS...hmmm guess to simple for Washington. OH and i didnt have to cut the bleed heart clauses either...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Hmmm... Seems to me that the Bush administration brought up concerns regarding the loans and people like Pelosi and Frank pushed it aside mostly because of their involvement.
I like how the entire lending thing is falling on Bush. Your most hated man who was against the poor got us in trouble by enforcing companies to extend risky loans to the poor? BRILLIANT logic.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
The big deal here, is the horrible arguments, and they are indeed par for the course for the RIAA. This is up there with Jack Thompson as far as court logic, really.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
As for this wiretapping crap, thats what it is. Every time some little thing happens they want to infringe on our freedom. Most ofthe crap in place now would have done nothing to prevent 911. But they use fear as a weapon against the constitution.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
You know, the boss that she would screw in his office until the day she cried sexual harrasment.
So he was fired, and she was hired as his replacement.
Equal my ass.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
2. The terrorists still want to kill us or convert us to Islam - your choice?
3. Stem Cell Research has ALWAYS been legal, but now the taxpayers have to pay for it.
4. Who cares if a bunch of zelot whackjobs hate us. They envy us for our success, such as inventing the airplane, the lightbulb, the radio, the automobile, TV, RADAR, electricity, computers, the telephone,and oh yeah... preserving FREEDOM and LIBERTY and the rights of the individual.
For the record, I don't hate Obama. I just don't believe in Marxism.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
The most halarious part of your post (which I assume is satire). Why do Americans think we invented the Car (the french name should be a hint that we didnt LOL)? That one always makes me laugh. Also, im pretty sure the British really invented Radar and electricity was really more a discovery then an invention.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Lightbulb: invented by Humphry Davy in 1802 - british
Radio - invented by Alexander Stepanovich Popov in 1895 - russian
Automobile - invented in it's modern form by Karl Benz in 1885 - german
TV - invented by Paul Gottlieb Nipkow in 1884 - german
RADAR - invented by Christian Hülsmeyer in 1904 - german
electicity - discovered by an unknown inventor from Parthia somewhere around 200 b.o.e.
Computers - invented by Tommy Flowers with input from Allen Coombs, Sid Broadhurst and Bill Chandler in 1944 - all british
Telephone - invented by Antonio Meucci in 1856 - italian
...preserving FREEDOM and LIBERTY and the rights of the individual - tell that to the millions of innocent civilians that your sadistic mercenaries have raped, tortured, maimed and killed in the most horrendous way
You - just the average cretin redneck.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Ben Franklin: A man who trades his freedoms for security deserves neither.
I don't care if Obama wakes up tomorrow and cures cancer, AIDS, convinces every terrorist in the world to peacefully lay down arms, and ends all famine...I don't hate Obama, but I do wonder what is going on with the current Administration. He is definitely grating against my good side right now...starting off on a bad foot usually doesn't help anyone's opinions of you.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
based on the stastical lie that they don't?
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
I don't think it's in "any" citizens best interest, regardless of their politics.
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Re: Messiah, indeed.
8 years of the most dangerous president in history was the one with initials BC. Just look at the record.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Unfortunately, we now have a more intelligent, more conniving power-hungry lunatic with hopelessly far-left agenda, all of which makes him far more dangerous.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
http://mises.org/multimedia/video/DiLorenzo_C-SPAN_QandA.wmv
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Messiah, indeed.
>> I'm always right and you're with us or against us" leadership style of the far right. God help us.
Didn't you get the news? God help us is no longer acceptable. The new phrase is, Obama help us. Unless of course, you are one of THOSE people. You know, the (cough) rich! For them folks, we'll use the code word FAIRNESS which loosely translates into BEND OVER.
Freedom
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Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
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RIAA Logic Applied To DOJ
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Its Pretty Simple
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Re: Its Pretty Simple
Ditto for Obama: Obama is a breath of fresh air, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have his own stink. Stop getting roped in by all the glitter and glamour during the elections so that you don't feel surprised when politicians don't live up to your expectations.
I ask the Obama haters: do you think it would have been better with McCain-Palin?
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Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
To be fair, the 2004 election was pretty sucky. Bush's greatest challenge was a flip-flopping used car salesman.
I did not vote for Obama, but I had high hopes for him after he got elected. I hoped that, despite his policies, I would be able to get behind him for the promised transparency and public involvement. Instead, actions like this show he is for even more closed, secretive, and powerful government, which is even more open to corruption.
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Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
The 2004 election was basically between two silver spoon born, blue blood, North Easterners, with nearly identical upbringings. The major difference was one of character. One of them had spent his entire adult life serving his country in one way or another (and he was uncomfortable pandering and pretending to be something he isn’t – which showed), the other guy had spend most of his entire life avoiding any responsibility or service at all (from his early draft dodging days on, he was also very comfortable pretending to be something he wasn’t, like from Texas for example). It really shouldn’t have been that hard. The American people went with the guy who told them what they wanted to hear and they got exactly what they deserved . . . MORE nearly catastrophic incompetence (let’s face it the Bush Administration was pretty well exposed by the end of 2001 – you had to be a real moron to still be supporting these guys by 2004)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
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Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
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Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
No, I didn't vote in this election because I hated both candidates. McCain was a bit better very early on (and his history is decent enough), but then he started touting the neocon line and got Palin as his running mate.
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Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
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Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Real change? How about restoring adherence to the constitution: dismantling the Federal Reserve and move in favor of a sound currency, eliminating our presence over seas, drastically reducing spending/shrink the federal government.
Sound like a tall order? It is, but we as people (for generations) have allowed the government to overstep it's boundaries over and over. It's time to push back - www.campaignforliberty.com
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Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Spoken like someone who has no idea about ecomonics.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
No, spoken like someone who is against GLOBAL economics. Isolationism, if done correctly, truly can work.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Ever.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Absolutely. I mean, if you're in favor of a steep crash in standard of living in the US, it can work just fine. Personally I'm not, so I'm glad we'll continue relating with the rest of the world. The ideas about getting back to the Constitution are great, though.
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Re: Its Pretty Simple
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Re: Its Pretty Simple
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Re: TDR
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Re: Re: TDR
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/stemcells2.php
The last part summarizes as follows:
So, how do ES and adult stem cells score at this point?
These latest results show that the ES cells need to be genetically modified and extensive manipulation in vitro before they can be transplanted safely. Direct transplant of ES cells are known to give rise to teratomas and uncontrollable cell proliferation. There is already evidence that ES cells are genetically unstable in long term culture, and are especially prone to chromosomal abnormalities. The risks involved in using the cytomegalovirus promoter to drive over-expression of the transcription factor are undetermined. To avoid immune rejection, the ES cells have to be tissue-matched from a bank of stem cells created from ‘spare’ human embryos. Otherwise, a special human embryo has to be created for the purpose, by transferring the patient’s genetic material into an empty egg, a procedure prone to failure and morally objectionable to many, including scientists.
By contrast, adult stem cells could be transplanted directly without genetic modification or pre-treatments. They simply differentiate according to cues from the surrounding tissues and do not give uncontrollable growth or tumours. The adult stem cells also show high degrees of genomic stability during culture. There is no problem with immune rejection because the cells can readily be isolated from the patients requiring transplant. And there is no moral objection involved. Better yet, research can be directed towards encouraging adult stem cells to regenerate and repair damaged tissues in situ, without the need for cell isolation and in vitro expansion. By minimising intervention, risks are reduced, as well as cost, making the treatment available to everyone and not just the rich.
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Re: Re: Re: TDR
Institute of Science and Society: Beware!
http://dcscience.net/?p=129
Your excerpt kind of reads as biased to me, as though the author is starting out with a conclusion and forming an argument to support it, rather than laying out the facts however they lie. Just the fact that every single thing he says about embryonic cells is negative, and vice-versa for adult cells, is questionable IMO.
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You say this as if....
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Embryonic stem cell research has been going on full steam ahead. GWB just wouldn't let the government fund it. Oh, and the results have not been all that great. Meanwhile, regular stem cell work has done well.
Make the world love us? I would rather they fear us. Loving us didn't keep N. Korea from launching a missile, and it won't keep them from selling it to Iran. We can always depend on the U.N. to stop all this though, even though China will veto anything against N. Korea since they are the ones who sold N. Korea the missile in the first place.
I do love the 5K NATO troops that were pledged for Afghanistan though. They won't be combat troops but hey, American families will be happy to know that their kids were at least fed by good French cooks before they go out to die.
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Take it back.
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Re: Take it back.
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Re: Re: Take it back.
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This just in: "Politician says one thing, does something else"
Oh, to see the sucker punch time after time after time.
Oh, to read the indignation and outrage time after time after time.
You know, as I do, that nothing you say matters one jot. They're already in, you've already lost.
Just make sure you forget this incident next time you vote so you can regurgitate that indignation and outrage over and over again like Groundhog Day.
Come one, come all, JOIN THE FUN !!!
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Uh...the original post?
To the matter at hand: While I'm certainly not defending warrantless wire tapping, read the story carefully and you'll see that it's not being made legal. It's only preventing civil suits against the government. And this isn't to put forward the Obama agenda, it's simply to prevent citizens whose rights were trampled by George W. Bush from tying up the legal system (and federal dollars) for the next decade litigating the excesses of the Republican fear-mongers. And that sucks, but it's a necessary step to move the country forward.
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Re: Uh...the original post?
As far as "moving forward," I just see more of the same: more executive power, bigger government, bigger spending, and more fear-mongering (though "terrorist" has now been replaced with "Wall Street").
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Re: Uh...the original post?
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Re: Re: Uh...the original post?
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Re:
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Why is it that we hear about the American Auto industry, its GM and Chrysler, but you never hear about Ford? Why is that?
Now TARP money is going to life insurance companies because they are hurting and since they buy a lot of securities, they should get TARP funds.
Education and Health Care are also being targeted. Why do you think that is?
There is one city in America and one industry in America that is seeing a bull market. They are growing like nothing else in the US. Sad to say the city is DC and the industry is government. This is an old fashioned land grab with a script written out by Nancy.
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Re:
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TL;DR
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Typical Politician
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Told ya so
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Re:
In this case, I'll blame you for voting for a doctor who does not believe in evolution.
Because that's real progressive.
(rolls eyes)
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Turns out Obama's Real name is Harold Hill
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"Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul."
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Putin knows
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language
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Wiretapping
About Wiretapping, the original article for this string:
I agree with Micheal, #24 that we should go after AT&T, specifically their attorneys, Wiley Rein, who did the wiretapping and were exposed by their own employees for MANIPULATING the data in San Francisco. When the government asked for the records, they refused, claiming they needed immunity first from the Government. What was illegal about the wiretapping was AT&T abuse of it and then hiding their abuse. What did they do with the data? It is clear they were not obtaining information for the right purposes. They were spying on people for industrial espionage purposes and putting together lucrative deals with other companies at the same time, like a porno network with Sirius and Howard Stern.
Anonymous Coward #55. Your drawing speaks volumes about your knowledge of hacking. Your comment #1 is absolutely correct, we should start encrypting everything. Not to protect privacy as this is now a loophole for thieves, rapists and killers, but to identify everyone so it is possible in the future for law enforcement to catch criminals preying on the lives of unprotected, undefended, citizens who cannot protect their IP.
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Constitution, Schmonstitution
That presupposes that they've read the Constitution before. Unfortunately, the only copy of the Constitution in the White House, it seems, is on a cardboard roll next to the toilet.
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There are 100's of scientific studies
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Isolationism
The first people to jump on the isolationist bandwagon are always the ones with ipods.
@ nasch (#93) - Yep, what you said!
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wire tap illegal
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The Goverments Assault on the 4th Amendment Warrent Less wire tapping
So how did it become a debate about stem cell research, women in the work place, Obama sucking as a President, and not caring about our Goverment illegal aggression and war against other countries mass murdering and displacing millions of innocent people, or racest remarks about another culture or religion.
So comment on topic at hand - I don't like our Constitution was established to protect its citizens from just this type of Governments abuse of power. Already they are without warrents or probable cause arresting Peace Activists and kicking in doors. Do you want them to read and intrude into your personal communications ( no privacy) what next cameras/recording devices in your homes. For the last 50 plus years our Governments Foreign Policies and intrusion in to our countries affairs have caused alot of our problems to date in the International Community and here at home. This is a BIG Wake UP Call call because Americas Civil Liberties,Democracy and Freedoms are slipping away and in our arrogance we are to blind to see it or care. When did we become China? Oh yeah guess it is when the our country was sold out years ago and China owns approx. 80%.
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