EFF: Obama DOJ's Warrantless Wiretapping Arguments Are Worse Than Bush's

from the wow dept

Wed, Apr 8th 2009 6:18am — Mike Masnick

On the issue of warrantless wiretapping, we've never been given a clear explanation by anyone why it makes sense to allow the government to totally skip over the warrant process. The warrant process is there for a clear reason: to prevent abusive power by the government. No one is saying that the government can't issue wiretaps. They just want the gov't to get it reviewed and approved by a court. And, there isn't even an issue of urgency, since the government has the right, in extreme cases, to wiretap first, and get the warrant soon after. Many people hoped that with the Obama administration, things would change, and we'd finally move away from the warrantless wiretapping program, which by any basic definition, violates the 4th Amendment.

Apparently not. The EFF has an analysis of the new Justice Department in trying to get one of the warrantless wiretapping cases dismissed, noting that the new administration appears to be taking an even more extreme position than the previous administration (which was already quite extreme). Basically, the motion to dismiss claims that the government "is completely immune from litigation for illegal spying -- that the Government can never be sued for surveillance that violates federal privacy statutes." It's difficult to see how anyone could square that with the 4th Amendment, and hopefully the court will suggest the Administration's top lawyers reread the Constitution.

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Filed Under: doj, obama, warrantless wiretapping
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 6:28am

Maybe...
It's time to encrypt everything.
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hegemon13, 8 Apr 2009 @ 6:48am

Messiah, indeed.
Wow, we just got through eight years of the most dangerous president in American history, only to get someone even worse. Frying pan, fire. I didn't think that was possible. What a two-faced, lying jackass. If his own constituents don't turn on him now, they truly are as brainwashed and star-struck as I thought. Obama has all the worst policies of the far left, combined with the totalitarian, fascist, "I'm always right and you're with us or against us" leadership style of the far right. God help us.
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Zaven, 8 Apr 2009 @ 6:48am

RIAA Logic Applied To DOJ
Hmm, so that's why Obama appointed all these RIAA guys to DOJ spots. Maybe court's will just take whatever they say as fact. After all that's what they did when these guys were off suing everyone in site for Copyright Infringement.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 6:57am

Re: Messiah, indeed.
such a horrible president, he is ensuring women get equal pay, closing gitmo, opening diplomatic channels with people that consider us their most hated enemy. Promoting stem cell research (If you are against this you deserve to have a blow spinal disk and other issues that would be simple with safe stem cell procedures but impossible to fix with current tech) Making the world not hate the United States anymore...

I love it when you Obama haters jump on the bad things done crying about how the country is going to hell... but if a good thing is done by him you say "Why do you think he's so great! he's hardly had time to do anything" Chill out, hasn't been a damn year yet. At least he hasn't done anything worse than Bush. Just doesn't lie as well when being a two faced jerk.
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Shawn, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:09am

Its Pretty Simple
This wont change, because the American people dont care. We are an easily frightened bunch of sheep who will cower and quickly surrender our rights at the sound of a loud noise. We no longer have this particular part of the Due Process clause, we gave it up and it aint coming back . . . ever. Instead of moaning over this particular spilled milk, we should maybe learn a little and become more appreciative at the remaining protections we do have. Hopefully the next time a president says the boogyman under your bed is going to get you, the American people wont be so quick to trade their basic ideals for the illusion of increased safety. You can blame Obama, but if you want to know whos fault this really is, look in the damn mirror!
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:20am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Yes, lets overlook the destruction of the constitution for a few good deeds. Not!

Also, stem cell research is closely linked to abortion. So lets kill a few children to make people walk again. Of course the children being killed would probably prefer to walk too.
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TDR, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:26am

Besides, adult stem cells are perfectly viable. They can do everything and anything that embryonic ones can. There's nothing wrong with using those, and there's no reason to use embryonic ones.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:27am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
such a horrible president, he is ensuring women get equal pay

Even though this was not a current issue... the vast majority of studies in fact show that if there is a discrepancy in pay between a man and woman of equal education AND experience, it's usually easily accounted for simply in another measurement of position value.

closing gitmo

With no thought on the subject at all, so they are basically going to end up being moved either to another facility on the main land or released... not much of a solution.

opening diplomatic channels with people that consider us their most hated enemy.

Yes, because we all know fanaticism is trumped by negotiations. Maybe we can convince them to bomb more discriminantly?

Promoting stem cell research (If you are against this you deserve to have a blow spinal disk and other issues that would be simple with safe stem cell procedures but impossible to fix with current tech)

WTF? He isn't promoting it and has no idea about the subject, he simply repealed the bans, which any of the possible new blood leaders would have.

Making the world not hate the United States anymore...

Yes, because the fact they have hated us for decades was all due to the fact we didn't talk to them in a nice enough tone..

This thread isn't really the place for a debate, but I couldn't resist posting a brief response to such lunacy. This leader has done the same things of the last one with only a being done better and many more being done worse. All the same things the previous leader was criticized for, he is doing, and rather than justifying them, he is patting people on the head and telling them it's for their own good.
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CastorTroy-Libertarian, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:27am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Guess ill start at the top,
1) women equal pay - hmm, what exactly has he done?
2) closing Gitmo, oh wait still open, when they do close it releasing them into America (cause nobody else will take them) and giving them welfare, thanks i like paying for people to plot to blow me and the family up.
3) Opening Diplomatic channels, its call appeasment and didnt work well last time it was tried either (thanks Chamberlin).
4) Stem Cells.. not a bad thing, ill give him some credit..
5) Making the world not hate us, your right most humans feel sorry for the absolute Poor, which we will soon be, and theyll be happy cause they toppled us down, that'll be a good thing, oh wait sarcasm turn back on..
And now the TOPPER.... LARGEST DEBT IN HISTROY, 28% of the GDP to pay for a government that is becoming more socialist, beaurocratic, and extremist everyday... and the debt is going up to the point we cant even pay the interest much less the principle...

Plus taking rights away from Americans, Companies and all the rest... we are not children, and children can run things better than all the politcal haxs...BOTH SIDES...

So go keep drinking the Kool-aide, it wont kill you, YET
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Jesse, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:28am

Re: Its Pretty Simple
Amen, brother. I have been randomly reading articles about how many people felt 'tricked' by Bush for the last 8 years. They write that they felt they didn't get what they voted for, that he presented himself one way and acted another. If some guy comes up to you and tells you, "I'm the best thing since sliced bread," do you just take that at face value and give him all your trust? Vested interest much? Up in Canada, come 2000 and especially 2004, we were mostly anti-Bush. Somehow most Canadians didn't get roped in. Come on, America, all the signs were there. All you had to do was open your eyes and look with a slight amount of foresight. At the very least don't turn around and say you didn't get what you voted for.

Ditto for Obama: Obama is a breath of fresh air, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have his own stink. Stop getting roped in by all the glitter and glamour during the elections so that you don't feel surprised when politicians don't live up to your expectations.

I ask the Obama haters: do you think it would have been better with McCain-Palin?
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Orion, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:28am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
"Also, stem cell research is closely linked to abortion. So lets kill a few children to make people walk again. Of course the children being killed would probably prefer to walk too."

Actual, stem cell research is tied to the left-over stem cells that are used from "tube babies". It always gets thrown away afterward. The idea behind the research is to use these cells because they're just going to waste when we could be saving lives with it. But of course, there are people that'll tell you it has to do with Abortions because they don't want stem cell research for whatever-the-reason-may-be.

And on a personal level, if stem cell research WAS tied with abortion, so be it. If someone truly wants to abort a child, they'll do it. They'll use a wire hanger to do it if all else fails. Might as well use the remains to make someone that did survive healthier.
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Jesse, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:31am

Re: TDR
Could you cite that please? I mean with a scientific journal (not wikipedia).
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Jesse, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:38am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
You claim that all those things you mentioned are simple and any president could have done that, and so Obama should not be applauded. But these are things the American public voted down for the last 8 years via Bush. I agree, those are obvious things: not torturing people, not banning stem cell research, not actively alienating foreign countries. But somehow America has missed the boat on those obvious things for the past 8 years. I would not be so quick to take it for granted.
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Matt, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:42am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
what the hell are you talking about? this has 0 to do with the article in any shape or fashion. Not even in an abstract fashion.

The big deal here, is the horrible arguments, and they are indeed par for the course for the RIAA. This is up there with Jack Thompson as far as court logic, really.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:43am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
"we cant even pay the interest much less the principle"

Thats they way it has always been I would recommend looking up "money as debt".
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Jesse, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:45am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
"closing Gitmo, oh wait still open, when they do close it releasing them into America (cause nobody else will take them) and giving them welfare, thanks i like paying for people to plot to blow me and the family up."

Why shouldn't the American public take care of people that were taken from their native country, held against due process without charge or conviction for half a decade, and tortured? This ties nicely into "making the world hate us." I wonder why that would be? Because America is a bully.

And making America poor? America has no idea what poor means. Take a look at any number of the nations America has exploited to achieve its wealth. And don't get me wrong, Canada and most other developed nations aren't much better. But you, sir, have no idea what poverty is.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Oh, so growing children in tubes is somehow better than in wombs? Same difference; the result is a dead child.

Let me get this straight, killing a child should be legal so that women won't kill themselves attempting an abortion? I have never understood that argument. A woman that would kill a child deserves to live but the child doesn't? Sorry, but I don't see the logic.
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Diggity, 8 Apr 2009 @ 7:53am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
I agree with most of what he does. I also agree with equal pay FOR EQUAL WORK!!! I have worked at too many places where the women do not do equal work and rather have a cushier job. I am also against women who complain they can't be things such as fire fighters because they can't lift the required weight. But if it's equal work then it should be equal pay.

As for this wiretapping crap, thats what it is. Every time some little thing happens they want to infringe on our freedom. Most ofthe crap in place now would have done nothing to prevent 911. But they use fear as a weapon against the constitution.
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Greg, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:16am

Re: Messiah, indeed.
You're an idiot. The most dangerous president in American history? That line alone proves you're a moron. You only save yourself a little bit by what comes after your comma.

8 years of the most dangerous president in history was the one with initials BC. Just look at the record.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:17am

What a bunch of maroons, since most decide to fly off the handle commenting on something that has nothing to do with the original article, I will continue that.

Embryonic stem cell research has been going on full steam ahead. GWB just wouldn't let the government fund it. Oh, and the results have not been all that great. Meanwhile, regular stem cell work has done well.

Make the world love us? I would rather they fear us. Loving us didn't keep N. Korea from launching a missile, and it won't keep them from selling it to Iran. We can always depend on the U.N. to stop all this though, even though China will veto anything against N. Korea since they are the ones who sold N. Korea the missile in the first place.

I do love the 5K NATO troops that were pledged for Afghanistan though. They won't be combat troops but hey, American families will be happy to know that their kids were at least fed by good French cooks before they go out to die.
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Dave (profile), 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:23am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
you still don't have a clue! pay attention to what is being done, not what is being said...
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dave, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:23am

Re: Its Pretty Simple
I agree!
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Troy The Brave, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:24am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
1. Closing GitMo will bring these terrorists to your neighborhood soon.
2. The terrorists still want to kill us or convert us to Islam - your choice?
3. Stem Cell Research has ALWAYS been legal, but now the taxpayers have to pay for it.
4. Who cares if a bunch of zelot whackjobs hate us. They envy us for our success, such as inventing the airplane, the lightbulb, the radio, the automobile, TV, RADAR, electricity, computers, the telephone,and oh yeah... preserving FREEDOM and LIBERTY and the rights of the individual.

For the record, I don't hate Obama. I just don't believe in Marxism.
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Michael, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:25am

Take it back.
So they go against your constitution, maybe people need to band together and go after AT&T and the equipment that they use to spy on you, if it were my country I would have already begun to destroy their equipment, and do away with my landlines. Until people get up and actually DO something they will continue to walk all over you. Life too comfy? Don't want to get into trouble? Then sit back and watch it happen. Its your country, you have no one to blame but yourselves.
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SunKing, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:27am

*********** NEWSFLASH **************

This just in: "Politician says one thing, does something else"

Oh, to see the sucker punch time after time after time.

Oh, to read the indignation and outrage time after time after time.

You know, as I do, that nothing you say matters one jot. They're already in, you've already lost.

Just make sure you forget this incident next time you vote so you can regurgitate that indignation and outrage over and over again like Groundhog Day.

Come one, come all, JOIN THE FUN !!!
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hegemon13, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:29am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Bush destroyed more American freedoms and trampled the Constitution more than any other president in history. He spent our country into the ground. He was not a conservative, and should not really have even been called a Republican. He was a power-hungry lunatic with no foresight. He used fear to force his dangerous, big-government, big-brother policies upon the nation.

Unfortunately, we now have a more intelligent, more conniving power-hungry lunatic with hopelessly far-left agenda, all of which makes him far more dangerous.
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riiiiight, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:29am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
"And now the TOPPER.... LARGEST DEBT IN HISTROY, 28% of the GDP to pay for a government that is becoming more socialist, beaurocratic, and extremist everyday... and the debt is going up to the point we cant even pay the interest much less the principle.."

Obama is simply trying to clean up Bush's mess. He hasn't generated the largest debt in history, he is simply trying to clean up the largest debt in history by attempting to re-jump-start the economy. I'd love to see you attempt to get the economy back on track without injecting trillions into it... just face it, since Bush became president your country has been on a complete downward spiral. Now you have a president that is trying to undo Bush's complete failures.

You complain about being bombed, but this wiretapping is supposed to help fight the cause. Do you really think they care to wiretap your sorry ass?
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kirillian (profile), 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:30am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
I think I posted this in another comment today, but it makes perfect sense here:

Ben Franklin: A man who trades his freedoms for security deserves neither.

I don't care if Obama wakes up tomorrow and cures cancer, AIDS, convinces every terrorist in the world to peacefully lay down arms, and ends all famine...I don't hate Obama, but I do wonder what is going on with the current Administration. He is definitely grating against my good side right now...starting off on a bad foot usually doesn't help anyone's opinions of you.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:34am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
"4. Who cares if a bunch of zelot whackjobs hate us. They envy us for our success, such as inventing the airplane, the lightbulb, the radio, the automobile, TV, RADAR, electricity, computers, the telephone,and oh yeah... preserving FREEDOM and LIBERTY and the rights of the individual."

The most halarious part of your post (which I assume is satire). Why do Americans think we invented the Car (the french name should be a hint that we didnt LOL)? That one always makes me laugh. Also, im pretty sure the British really invented Radar and electricity was really more a discovery then an invention.
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Desert Yeti, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:38am

Uh...the original post?
I find the hysteria from those on the Right concerning Obama amusing. He's a politician, same as any other modern president...he's just got a slightly different agenda. I have to say the best part is when the yahoos on Faux News try to make Obama out as a tyrant or a fascist. But even better was the comparison to McCarthy. Wow. This from the asshats who claimed for the last 7 years or so that dissent was "unamerican." Sheesh.

To the matter at hand: While I'm certainly not defending warrantless wire tapping, read the story carefully and you'll see that it's not being made legal. It's only preventing civil suits against the government. And this isn't to put forward the Obama agenda, it's simply to prevent citizens whose rights were trampled by George W. Bush from tying up the legal system (and federal dollars) for the next decade litigating the excesses of the Republican fear-mongers. And that sucks, but it's a necessary step to move the country forward.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:40am

Funny thing is, our government has always been intercepting phone calls. It sure didn't start with GWB. Didn't even start with Reagan.
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hegemon13, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:43am

Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
I seem to remember that Canada voted out its entire government just a few years ago. Looks like America wasn't the only one to get roped in. Pot, meet Kettle.

To be fair, the 2004 election was pretty sucky. Bush's greatest challenge was a flip-flopping used car salesman.

I did not vote for Obama, but I had high hopes for him after he got elected. I hoped that, despite his policies, I would be able to get behind him for the promised transparency and public involvement. Instead, actions like this show he is for even more closed, secretive, and powerful government, which is even more open to corruption.
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PRMan, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:45am

You say this as if....
You say this as if embryonic stem cells are equally viable to adult stem cells. So far, all of the research breakthroughs have been using ADULT stem cells, but for some strange reason the articles always leave that part out.
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CastorTroy-Libertarian, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Actually i can get the economy jump started and not spend trillions, its easy
1) STOP BAILING OUT PEOPLE THAT MADE BAD DECISIONS AND LET THEM FAIL
2) Elimate the TAX CODE - and implement the FAIR TAX, a national embedded sales tax - PEOPLE AND COMPANYS WOULD SPEND LIKE NEVER BEFORE and many companies would rush to come here too, no TAX Burden... OH and the sales tax would be on everything (no exceptions)...

Done and no trillions needed, oh and the debit goes away because of savings in administration costs and IRS...hmmm guess to simple for Washington. OH and i didnt have to cut the bleed heart clauses either...
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Azuravian, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:46am

Re: Re: TDR
I am not the original poster, but I found the following information:

http://www.i-sis.org.uk/stemcells2.php

The last part summarizes as follows:
So, how do ES and adult stem cells score at this point?

These latest results show that the ES cells need to be genetically modified and extensive manipulation in vitro before they can be transplanted safely. Direct transplant of ES cells are known to give rise to teratomas and uncontrollable cell proliferation. There is already evidence that ES cells are genetically unstable in long term culture, and are especially prone to chromosomal abnormalities. The risks involved in using the cytomegalovirus promoter to drive over-expression of the transcription factor are undetermined. To avoid immune rejection, the ES cells have to be tissue-matched from a bank of stem cells created from ‘spare’ human embryos. Otherwise, a special human embryo has to be created for the purpose, by transferring the patient’s genetic material into an empty egg, a procedure prone to failure and morally objectionable to many, including scientists.

By contrast, adult stem cells could be transplanted directly without genetic modification or pre-treatments. They simply differentiate according to cues from the surrounding tissues and do not give uncontrollable growth or tumours. The adult stem cells also show high degrees of genomic stability during culture. There is no problem with immune rejection because the cells can readily be isolated from the patients requiring transplant. And there is no moral objection involved. Better yet, research can be directed towards encouraging adult stem cells to regenerate and repair damaged tissues in situ, without the need for cell isolation and in vitro expansion. By minimising intervention, risks are reduced, as well as cost, making the treatment available to everyone and not just the rich.
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CastorTroy-Libertarian, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Gee guess, its always been that way so why should we change
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hegemon13, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:48am

Re: Take it back.
Unfortunately, under Bush's unconstitutional Patriot Act (which is still in effect), you would not just be charged with misdemeanor vandalism, as you should be, but could instead labeled a "terrorist," shipped to an overseas prison, and given no trial, no lawyer, and no contact with your family. So, yeah, I can understand the hesitation of Americans to pick up arms against the government right now.
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CastorTroy-Libertarian, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:52am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Wrong that actually would be FDR, but nice try
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hegemon13, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:53am

Re: Uh...the original post?
Since the majority of the current Congress was in power when the Republican fear-mongers were in power, I think it is perfectly valid to go after them now. Besides, since when does the government have the right to excuse itself from civil prosecution? Sorry, but that is so ripe for corruption, it is terrifying.

As far as "moving forward," I just see more of the same: more executive power, bigger government, bigger spending, and more fear-mongering (though "terrorist" has now been replaced with "Wall Street").
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:55am

Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
"To be fair, the 2004 election was pretty sucky. Bush's greatest challenge was a flip-flopping used car salesman."

The 2004 election was basically between two silver spoon born, blue blood, North Easterners, with nearly identical upbringings. The major difference was one of character. One of them had spent his entire adult life serving his country in one way or another (and he was uncomfortable pandering and pretending to be something he isn’t – which showed), the other guy had spend most of his entire life avoiding any responsibility or service at all (from his early draft dodging days on, he was also very comfortable pretending to be something he wasn’t, like from Texas for example). It really shouldn’t have been that hard. The American people went with the guy who told them what they wanted to hear and they got exactly what they deserved . . . MORE nearly catastrophic incompetence (let’s face it the Bush Administration was pretty well exposed by the end of 2001 – you had to be a real moron to still be supporting these guys by 2004)
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 8:57am

Why is it that when banks try to repay the TARP money, they are told no, if pressed, the government then threatens banks with audits? Why would the government not want banks to repay taxpayer money?

Why is it that we hear about the American Auto industry, its GM and Chrysler, but you never hear about Ford? Why is that?

Now TARP money is going to life insurance companies because they are hurting and since they buy a lot of securities, they should get TARP funds.

Education and Health Care are also being targeted. Why do you think that is?

There is one city in America and one industry in America that is seeing a bull market. They are growing like nothing else in the US. Sad to say the city is DC and the industry is government. This is an old fashioned land grab with a script written out by Nancy.
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Learn to read., 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:08am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Coward,

Why don't you spend some time reading about stem cell research before saying something that ridiculous.

Stem cell harvesting is done from fetuses that never would have become "walking children."

And how can you possibly claim Obama is responsible for the "Destruction of the Constitution" when we have had two separate era's of Bush senior and Bush junior walking all over our rights for profit.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:16am

Re: Uh...the original post?
I just love how Dems constantly try to revise history. The congress has been controlled by the Dems for a while now. They are the ones who voted for the Patriot Act and re-upped it recently. They also voted for the Iraq war, but don't let that stop you from trying to rewrite history. Maybe one day you will actually convince someone.
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uhmno, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:16am

guys srsly
TL;DR
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
He might not, but I do. Living in a car that barely runs, avoiding the police because you can't afford to even have the license you need to turn on the heat in the winter. Food banks, digging into water fountains for change, wondering when your next good meal or shower is going to be... America DOES know what poor means. Open generalizations about the top 20% of the nation just pisses me off.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Well, yes. The British got Radar. Benjamin Franklin and Nikola Tesla are the ones responsible for electricity. It was Tesla who gave us reliable Alternating Current (That's AC, the stuff in your wall socket), as well as radio. A Croatian.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Nuts... You all need to really understand the Macroeconimics of this "financial disaster" of which you fear.

NAFTA which was championed by Bill Clinton and his girl Monica or is that Hillarious or Hillary... Bill Clinton is the only known president who was owned and operated by China.

Why do you think you can get an iPod for less than 500.00? Because we dont have to pay US wages. More and more, the "corporate bottom line" and their shareholders are more important than the taxpayer and you (those who pay no tax). It is much simpler to send the manufacturing jobs to China and Mexico because they work hard and for much less because they realize that menial labor like operating an impact wrench on an assembly line does not deserve 75k a year no matter how long you operate that impact wrench. I have many friends who believed that "payraises" were a right... Really? Just because you stand there year after year driving a broom on the shop floor and now you are entitled to what 4k more this year than last.. what happens after 25 years? You are now making over twice your starting salary to do the same work that you were happy to do at 18. Makes no sense. The job didn't change.

In any case, Clinton paved the way for huge job cuts, yes even the menial ones, with NAFTA.

We allowed him to do it and then loved him for Monica's dress... Not sure how he did it but he has a larger approval rating now than when he got out of office... LOL

Americans are really that shallow.
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anonymous, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Actually if I remember correctly the Dems have held the power of the house and senate for the last few years, yet you still blame Bush! Well Bush isn't in power anymore and Bush didn't blow over a trillion dollars in less than three months on fairly stupid crap. I think it's time for our President to wake up and listen to what the people want (All of them, not just the ones who agree with his views).
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Yet you have time to get on to tech dirt. Interesting!
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:55am

Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
This just in no one cares about Canada because they have never done anything worth while. You invented curling and are good at hockey, congratulations. You know that if we stopped importing your crappy products you would be screwed.
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Fsm, 8 Apr 2009 @ 10:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Get off Techdirt and get a job then.
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DS, 8 Apr 2009 @ 10:53am

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
"ensuring women get equal pay"

based on the stastical lie that they don't?
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DS, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:04am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
"WTF? He isn't promoting it and has no idea about the subject, he simply repealed the bans"

Don't forget, the only "ban" was on federal funding for new strains/cultures. There was no "ban" on research, nor was there a "ban" on continuing research based on pre-existing cell lines.

Repealing the "ban" is just another way to pump more federal (as on your) dollars into private industry.
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DS, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:06am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
That's still rich vs. the much of the world. When's the last time you had to kill a man for water?
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:06am

Typical Politician
Obama lied to get in office.

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DS, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:08am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Ever have the fun of working for a company where a woman ended up with her old bosses job?

You know, the boss that she would screw in his office until the day she cried sexual harrasment.

So he was fired, and she was hired as his replacement.

Equal my ass.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
But yet it's cruel and inhuman to castrate a known rapist or put to death a known murder. Gotta love that left wing thought process.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Yes, people seem to use "ban" loosely and point at Bush, who wasn't opposed to it. I didn't support Bush but I don't walk around filling any crack (and there are many) in Obama's armor but pointing back at him.

As for the original response to hegemon13... That was spoken like one of the tried and true brainwashed. Pull your head out of Obama's ass for a minute and look around.
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NeoConBushSupporter, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:40am

Told ya so
nuff said . . .
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Baaaa baaaa, is that the sound you make, riiiiight?

Hmmm... Seems to me that the Bush administration brought up concerns regarding the loans and people like Pelosi and Frank pushed it aside mostly because of their involvement.

I like how the entire lending thing is falling on Bush. Your most hated man who was against the poor got us in trouble by enforcing companies to extend risky loans to the poor? BRILLIANT logic.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Wait I thought you said 2004? That sounds more like the 1992 election.

The major difference was one of character. One of them had spent his entire adult life serving his country in one way or another (and he was uncomfortable pandering and pretending to be something he isn’t – which showed), the other guy had spend most of his entire life avoiding any responsibility or service at all (from his early draft dodging days on, he was also very comfortable pretending to be something he wasn’t...
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:50am

Re: Re: Take it back.
I guess when the next attack comes we'll let them board with you and your family while awaiting a fair trial. Maybe they'll take special interest in your wife.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:52am

Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
I ask the Obama haters: do you think it would have been better with McCain-Palin?

No, I didn't vote in this election because I hated both candidates. McCain was a bit better very early on (and his history is decent enough), but then he started touting the neocon line and got Palin as his running mate.
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Freedom, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:54am

Re: Messiah, indeed.
Amen!!

>> I'm always right and you're with us or against us" leadership style of the far right. God help us.

Didn't you get the news? God help us is no longer acceptable. The new phrase is, Obama help us. Unless of course, you are one of THOSE people. You know, the (cough) rich! For them folks, we'll use the code word FAIRNESS which loosely translates into BEND OVER.

Freedom
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dave (profile), 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:54am

Re:
and every administration expands it.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 11:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
I didn't see him say that was his current situation? Did you? I don't know what the circumstances were but it's funny that peace and love liberals are the most wretched people on the face of the earth when it comes to disagreeing with them.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Touché
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KJ, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:02pm

Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
For things to be different, you don't just look at the RNC candidate because they all parrot essentially the same thing with menial differences here and there.

Real change? How about restoring adherence to the constitution: dismantling the Federal Reserve and move in favor of a sound currency, eliminating our presence over seas, drastically reducing spending/shrink the federal government.

Sound like a tall order? It is, but we as people (for generations) have allowed the government to overstep it's boundaries over and over. It's time to push back - www.campaignforliberty.com
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Joe, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:08pm

Unbelievable. Does nobody in government read the Bill of Rights anymore? So now we find out that Obama is worse on civil liberties and insanely worse on fiscal responsibility (and given the spending of the previous admin, that is really saying something.) He has so far exhibited shockingly bad leadership. I assumed he'd be a little bit better than the typical politician, but he's actually much, much worse.
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conceived in liberty, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:08pm

Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul.
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KJ, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Abe Lincoln, bar none.

http://mises.org/multimedia/video/DiLorenzo_C-SPAN_QandA.wmv
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:16pm

Turns out Obama's Real name is Harold Hill
Harold also has a Masters in Musical Theater and performs on Broadway.
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ehrichweiss, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
OR, how about that they don't even use fetuses for stem cells any more. Did everyone get cryogenic procedures done 10 years ago and just wake up from the cold sleep? I mean it's not like this hasn't been news for the past 5 years or so.
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KevinC, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
#6- you are an idiot. First, the stem cells are from un-implanted, fertilized eggs from artificial insemination that would be thrown away.
Second, even if they are squirreled away by feds rooting through the garbage cans at abortion clinics...should they be used as land fill or to help sick people.
I said GOOD DAY SIR!
Best
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KevinC, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Left Wing -opposed to capital punishment, pro-abortion.
Right Wing-pro-capital punishment, anti-abortion.
What an absurd hypocrisy to point out!
The life of a fetus is debatable, certainly not for the life of a mentally handicapped man in texas.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
McCain-??? would have been 100x better, unfortunately it became McCain-Palin.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 12:35pm

"Don't blame me, I voted for Ron Paul."
Is that available on a bumper sticker, perhaps?
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batch, 8 Apr 2009 @ 1:04pm

Re: Messiah, indeed.
Both McCain and Obama voted IN FAVOR of RETRO ACTIVE IMMUNITY FOR THE TELECOMS.
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DS, 8 Apr 2009 @ 1:27pm

Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
dismantling the Federal Reserve and move in favor of a sound currency, eliminating our presence over seas,

Spoken like someone who has no idea about ecomonics.
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Tgeigs, 8 Apr 2009 @ 2:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
"Spoken like someone who has no idea about ecomonics."

No, spoken like someone who is against GLOBAL economics. Isolationism, if done correctly, truly can work.
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hegemon13, 8 Apr 2009 @ 2:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Hmmm, okay, you might have a point there as far as trampling on rights, though Bush definitely gave him a run for his money. Still, Bush was really, really, really bad. And Obama looks even worse. That is my point, and I am very concerned about what the US will look like in four years. Judging by the first few months of Obama's presidency, we will be living in a socialist, corporate-fascist society with unmanageable national debt and unemployment numbers at 20% or higher. That won't matter to the unemployed, though, because even though they pay no taxes, they'll still get a $20,000 annual tax credit. But that's not redistribution! That's "stimulus"!
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hegemon13, 8 Apr 2009 @ 3:01pm

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Yep, that's too bad. But I expected Obama to be at least more reasonable on this than Bush. I never imagined his stance would reach even further toward a totalitarian executive branch, given how much he slammed Biden for such behavior.
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DS, 8 Apr 2009 @ 4:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Sorry, sticking your fingers in your ears, shutting your eyes, and screaming "neener neener neener" does not work.

Ever.
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DS, 8 Apr 2009 @ 4:27pm

Re:
I'll blame you for whatever I want to blame you for.

In this case, I'll blame you for voting for a doctor who does not believe in evolution.

Because that's real progressive.

(rolls eyes)
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 4:38pm

Re: Re: Uh...the original post?
Republicans aren't exactly blameless in all this crap, you know.
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Apr 2009 @ 4:41pm

Re:
We don't hear about Ford because they didn't ask to be bailed out, yet they made the same changes to their structure, voluntarily, that GM and Chrysler were required to make to get the money. Hmmm... Maybe you don't read enough?
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Foxwood, 8 Apr 2009 @ 6:08pm

Putin knows
The direction our country is headed, we're in trouble. Putin has a better plan than Obama.
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STeve, 8 Apr 2009 @ 9:58pm

language
From the quote, it seems to say that you can't sue the government. It has never been legal to sue the government, for wiretapping or any other reason. Granted I didn't read the full report but it sounds like there a lot of reading into this quote.
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Azrael, 9 Apr 2009 @ 1:53am

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Airplane: invented in it's modern form by George Cayley in 1809 - british
Lightbulb: invented by Humphry Davy in 1802 - british
Radio - invented by Alexander Stepanovich Popov in 1895 - russian
Automobile - invented in it's modern form by Karl Benz in 1885 - german
TV - invented by Paul Gottlieb Nipkow in 1884 - german
RADAR - invented by Christian Hülsmeyer in 1904 - german
electicity - discovered by an unknown inventor from Parthia somewhere around 200 b.o.e.
Computers - invented by Tommy Flowers with input from Allen Coombs, Sid Broadhurst and Bill Chandler in 1944 - all british
Telephone - invented by Antonio Meucci in 1856 - italian
...preserving FREEDOM and LIBERTY and the rights of the individual - tell that to the millions of innocent civilians that your sadistic mercenaries have raped, tortured, maimed and killed in the most horrendous way

You - just the average cretin redneck.
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femtobeam, 9 Apr 2009 @ 5:31am

Wiretapping
Correction: Hedi Lamarr filed the first patent on Radar. She escaped from her first husband, in Germany, who was involved in arms dealing with the representative of the Kaiser, a Bechtel. She escaped to England, where her work was known and married Mr. Meyer and moved to Hollywood. Her patent was filed around that time, early in the 1900's. It was the basis for Radar. It was top secret most of her life.

About Wiretapping, the original article for this string:
I agree with Micheal, #24 that we should go after AT&T, specifically their attorneys, Wiley Rein, who did the wiretapping and were exposed by their own employees for MANIPULATING the data in San Francisco. When the government asked for the records, they refused, claiming they needed immunity first from the Government. What was illegal about the wiretapping was AT&T abuse of it and then hiding their abuse. What did they do with the data? It is clear they were not obtaining information for the right purposes. They were spying on people for industrial espionage purposes and putting together lucrative deals with other companies at the same time, like a porno network with Sirius and Howard Stern.
Anonymous Coward #55. Your drawing speaks volumes about your knowledge of hacking. Your comment #1 is absolutely correct, we should start encrypting everything. Not to protect privacy as this is now a loophole for thieves, rapists and killers, but to identify everyone so it is possible in the future for law enforcement to catch criminals preying on the lives of unprotected, undefended, citizens who cannot protect their IP.
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Keith, 9 Apr 2009 @ 7:06am

Constitution, Schmonstitution
"... hopefully the court will suggest the Administration's top lawyers reread the Constitution."

That presupposes that they've read the Constitution before. Unfortunately, the only copy of the Constitution in the White House, it seems, is on a cardboard roll next to the toilet.
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nasch, 9 Apr 2009 @ 9:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
His point is that the cells for stem cell research do not come from aborted fetuses, they come from embryos discarded from the in vitro fertilization process. Nobody is saying in vitro is better or worse than in utero, I have no idea where you got that.

His second point is (sorry to speak for you like this!) that abortions are going to happen. We, as a society, cannot choose that abortions will not happen - they're just inevitable, as they have been probably for as long as humans have existed. Our choices are to criminalize it, ensuring that 1) there are more unwanted babies born and 2) the rich will have their abortions done in other countries, and 3) the remaining abortions are the wire hanger or black market varieties; or ensure that it's legal and safe for those that choose to do it. Which do you think is a better outcome? Keep in mind the second option is compatible with anti-abortion education efforts.

Finally, to sum up the original argument: anyone opposed to abortion should also be opposed to in vitro fertilization, because it also destroys embryos.

Wow, this is off topic.
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nasch, 9 Apr 2009 @ 9:53am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Its Pretty Simple
Isolationism, if done correctly, truly can work.

Absolutely. I mean, if you're in favor of a steep crash in standard of living in the US, it can work just fine. Personally I'm not, so I'm glad we'll continue relating with the rest of the world. The ideas about getting back to the Constitution are great, though.
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nasch, 9 Apr 2009 @ 10:07am

Re: Re: Re: TDR
That may not be a good source of information.

Institute of Science and Society: Beware!
http://dcscience.net/?p=129

Your excerpt kind of reads as biased to me, as though the author is starting out with a conclusion and forming an argument to support it, rather than laying out the facts however they lie. Just the fact that every single thing he says about embryonic cells is negative, and vice-versa for adult cells, is questionable IMO.
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hegemon13, 9 Apr 2009 @ 3:21pm

Re: Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
Hehe, just noticed my typo. That should have been "...slammed *Cheney* for such behavior..."
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phyl franklin, 9 Apr 2009 @ 6:19pm

There are 100's of scientific studies
There are 100's of scientific studies that have been done on AFA and our product StemEnhance. There are also 100's of scientific papers on Adult Stem Cell therapy. I have listed quite a few on my blog that you can read at http://www.phyl247.biz You can also find the book over at Amazon.com that Christian Drapeau wrote. It is called "The Stem Cell Theory of Renewal" Take a look if you would like to talk feel free to email or call me anytime 877-696-8581
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Desert Yeti, 10 Apr 2009 @ 9:55am

Isolationism
@ Tgeigs (#80) - Isolationism works fine if you want to start paying $5000 for a small TV and then using an old-school antenna to watch your 4 channels. You won't have much time for TV anyway as you'll be either A) Raising your own livestock and growing your own food, or B) Working a factory job for $6.00/hour 12 hours a day.

The first people to jump on the isolationist bandwagon are always the ones with ipods.

@ nasch (#93) - Yep, what you said!
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Greg Gassner, 11 Apr 2009 @ 6:40pm

wire tap illegal
Obama, has done exactly what everbody thought he would LIE,LIE,LIE, to get himself into office then take absolute control, welcome to the first day of the rest of your life, a yea say good buy to freedom!
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Retarded_Retiree, 13 Apr 2009 @ 9:10pm

Re: Re: Messiah, indeed.
I suppose one would rightly say that neither Presidents Bush or Obama, are neither all good or all bad, nor always right nor always wrong. Do you think "this" action is good?
I don't think it's in "any" citizens best interest, regardless of their politics.
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daretoeatapeach, 12 Oct 2009 @ 4:59pm

Re: Its Pretty Simple
@Shawn is right! We need to stand up for our rights, sign petitions, demand---hey, lookey! It's an iPhone! Shiiiiiiiiny. Priiiiiiiiity.
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Beverly Weaver, 2 Oct 2010 @ 6:29pm

The Goverments Assault on the 4th Amendment Warrent Less wire tapping
Confused here I thought tha article was about Our Goverments assault on our civil liberties and total disreguard for the 4th Amendment with their push for warrent less wire tapping of internet/mobile and landline.
So how did it become a debate about stem cell research, women in the work place, Obama sucking as a President, and not caring about our Goverment illegal aggression and war against other countries mass murdering and displacing millions of innocent people, or racest remarks about another culture or religion.

So comment on topic at hand - I don't like our Constitution was established to protect its citizens from just this type of Governments abuse of power. Already they are without warrents or probable cause arresting Peace Activists and kicking in doors. Do you want them to read and intrude into your personal communications ( no privacy) what next cameras/recording devices in your homes. For the last 50 plus years our Governments Foreign Policies and intrusion in to our countries affairs have caused alot of our problems to date in the International Community and here at home. This is a BIG Wake UP Call call because Americas Civil Liberties,Democracy and Freedoms are slipping away and in our arrogance we are to blind to see it or care. When did we become China? Oh yeah guess it is when the our country was sold out years ago and China owns approx. 80%.
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