Amazon Uses DRM To Turn Kindle Into A Very Expensive Paperweight
from the that's-not-good... dept
Reader Mark points us to a rather disturbing story about Amazon canceling a customer's account for no clear reason, and in doing so, using DRM to turn his Kindle 2 device into a useless paperweight -- such that he couldn't even read the books he'd purchased. This is troubling on a variety of levels. First, it's worrisome that Amazon would just cancel this guy's account with no warning, no full explanation and no method to appeal the decision. Second, it's quite problematic that, in doing so, it would turn his expensive device into a useless box, while disabling ebooks he'd thought he'd "bought." Once again, we see how DRM, rather than "enabling business models" as those who support it insist, tends to only serve to harm legitimate customers.Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Fighting it would be easy to, give me my book (that I paid for) or give me my money back, you dont have the right to disable my book after I paid no matter how many EULA's you put on the product because in a deal bettween a private party vs a company, you cant sign your rights away even if the company says you can.
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That's right, you've got the right to give your money away if you want to and that's exactly what you did when you bought a DRM infested Kindle.
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Um...
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Re: Um...
I think that it is fair to assume someone who actually pays for things and returns them in accordance with the companies policies is a legit customer. Sure Amazon doesn't like it but it's their own fault for enabling that in the first place.
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Re: Re: Um...
I get what you're saying, but retailers can discriminate against people for legal reasons. Can Best Buy refuse to sell you crap because you're Black? Nope. Can Best Buy refuse to sell to you because of your religion? Nope. Can Best Buy refuse to sell to you because they don't like you as a customer. Heck yeah.
But instead of kicking you of their store, they're merely kicking out your account. In the US we have the right to freely associate. If Amazon does not want to associate with you, for legal reasons, they do not have to.
To put it another way, you have no legal right to shop at Amazon, as long as Amazon is following the law.
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That's what lawyers are for. If he didn't have a lawyer look over the terms for him before he signed up then that's his own fault.
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Funny, but not really.
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Well, if you don't get have a lawyer look it over first then it's your own fault. Quit whining about it. And if that 99 cent song includes a legal agreement that you must sign in order to get it then you need to factor in the cost of a legal review with the 99 cents. Suddenly, that song doesn't look so cheap, now does it?
Now if you do get a lawyer to review it for you and he fails to properly explain the legal consequences then that's a different story and you should sue the lawyer for malpractice. Otherwise, you need to grow up and take responsibility for your own actions. (That's why children aren't generally allowed to enter into contracts.) Finally, if you STILL want to go around signing things without knowing what they mean, then let me know because I can probably come up with some real doozies for ya. I love separating fools from their money.
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Sorry buddy, but like many people, you just don't understand DRM. It certainly can mean that you can loose access in the future.
Just like Apple cannot legally shut off your iPod to prevent it from playing DRM-encoded content, Amazon cannot either.
There you go again. I don't know where you got that idea, but DRM is not all "just like' that on the iPod.
There is nothing in their agreement that states that content you purchase is still Amazon's property.
Except, you're not purchasing content. You're purchasing access to content and Amazon can terminate that access at their discretion. Check the agreement.
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But what they likely don't have the right to do is repossess items you've already legitimately purchased from them. In this case, it is theft because they're denying him use of something he owns.
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they made many of his (100% legal) purchases no longer work, they took away access from his ebooks and the use of his kindle therefore they need to refund his money or face charges for violating the agreement they made when money exchanged hands.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Um...
I thin you're the one who needs to check the agreement because Amazon is within their legal rights here. DRM and all.
You just don't want to admit that DRM, per se , is a bad idea, do you?
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Err, yes they can. This story can of proves it, doesn't it? Unless of course you're saying that this story is fake.
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No thanks, I don't want any DRM in my coffee!
Amazon.com will never get a dime from me for digital media, and I wouldn't touch a Kindle (or Sony e-reader for that matter) with a 10-ft pole. My Palm TX reads Mobi/Kindle books just fine thanks, and a 1GB SD card (less than $5 USD) can store over a thousand volumes. I just drop the files I've downloaded onto the SD card and pop it into the Palm. I don't even need to sync the device to do that. Also, I have mobi readers for all my systems (laptop, desktop, Linux, XP, whatever) so I can read any of my books whenever/wherever I wish. Vendor lock-in sucks and reduces my range of choice.
So, don't be a sucker and buy (sic) into DRM-encumbered media.
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Re: No thanks, I don't want any DRM in my coffee!
Which is often why people by the DRM-free disks from the guy selling them out of his trunk or just download them.
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Re: No thanks, I don't want any DRM in my coffee!
Even for the stuff without DRM?
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Yes, but
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Re: Yes, but
Reading is stealing! That knowledge was compiled and copyrighted by soulless corporations; when you read it, you put an illegal copy in your head!
READING IS STEALING!
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Re:
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Now abuse would be if I bought 100 TVs and returned them immediately becasue Amazon pissed me off and I wanted them to be out all the shipping charges.
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Under the law retailers have to honor their return polices. In this instance Amazon did honor their return policies.
Under the law you have no right to shop at Amazon. To put it another way, Amazon has a right to deny you service at any time, as long as Amazon is not illegal discriminating against you. Amazon can deny you service because you're annoying. Amazon cannot deny you service merely because of your religion.
"Now abuse would be if I bought 100 TVs and returned them immediately..."
That would be your definition of abuse. But it's not a legal definition of abuse. And as I said above, Amazon can kick your account anytime it wants, for any reason, as long as it's not illegal discrimination.
Think of it this way. You have a store. And the same annoying customer comes in week after week. Eventually you tell him to get the frick out. That's your right. That's Amazon's right too.
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This means you can refuse to take a customers money. It doesn't mean you can take away the things they purchased. They can refuse to take your money and discriminate in doing so at the same time, and get away with it 100% of the time actually.
DRM is not the same, DRM is saying "well, you rented it not bought it, so we can refuse the rental at any time we like". Meanwhile people are paying full price, which is stupid. This is not the same as refusal of service.
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I thought it was supposed to be MAtt.
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According to the guy, the products he returned were all defective. He didn't just return them because he changed his mind or something. In fact, he first tried to get them replaced with good ones. However, Amazon sent defective replacements as well.
Apparently Amazon doesn't want the kind of customers that don't accept defective products. I guess they expect people to just bend over and take it up the old keister when they get defective products. And if they won't do that then Amazon doesn't want to do business with them. Sounds like just the kind of company that would love DRM, doesn't it?
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And despite Mike's headline and the claims of the article he's commenting on, none of the customer's problems had *anything* to do with DRM at all. He would have had all of his same issues even if the Kindle and Amazon's e-books didn't use any DRM at all. If there's any bitching to be done as a result of this story, it should be directed at Amazon's return policy and auto-cancellation bots, not their DRM
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No, it said it *implied* that was the reason, but didn't go into any details.
That's certainly not a "clear reason."
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It also said...
It seems pretty clear to me.
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Poster Child
I'm also somewhat bemused that Obama's international DRM embarrassment hasn't made the news here. Brown’s DVD Gift From Obama Wrong Format
Obama is busy hiring lawyers working for the likes of the RIAA who want to restrict your ability to use content. Well Obama has now become a beneficiary of DRM in that he gave the PM of England DVDs that won't work in England because of regional encoding!!! This is a clear example of how DRM frustrates the ability of users to use the products they paid for and are entitled to use. It also points to clueless lawmakers who don't realize what they are approving.
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Re: Poster Child
It has.
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errors
I expect this has little to do with DRM and LOTS to do with a failed backup plan.
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Yep-
Since even the built-in memory on my first-gen Kindle holds hundreds of books, never mind what I can fit on an SD card (or my computer' hard drive), there's no reason for the *sole* copy of my purchased content to be the one on the Amazon server. Like you said, that's just poor planning.
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Re: Yep-
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Re: errors
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DRM and Theft
People claim that DRM is needed to prevent downloaders from stealing from the content providers. However even if you accept the assumption that every download is a lost sale, the content provider still can sell it to other people. They don't loose the content.
In this example, Amazon stole the content from the paying customer. The customer payed for something and now Amazon took away his ability to access it, I think that is the very definition of stealing. No different than if Amazon entered his house and took all of his books off of his bookshelf.
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Re: DRM and Theft
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=15015711
I don't see anything in there to indicate that Amazon will cut you off if you return lots of expensive things. Now if he returned things against that policy (opened items, after 30 days, whatever) then Amazon is well within its rights to not give the guy a refund
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What's next?
I don't buy any software or hardware that contains DRM. I'll download it. If I like it and it doesn't contain DRM, then I would buy that first. I have never, don't now, and never will, support or pay for any sort of device, software, or product that contains DRM.
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The real problem with DRM
On the other hand, I think that there are legitimate uses of the technology. Take a service like Rhapsody, for example. It is extremely clear to anyone who uses Rhapsody that if they cancel their subscription that they will be unable to access the music they have downloaded. Moreover, this is reflected in the price. To me, this seems fair.
It is unfortunate that the vast majority of companies using DRM utilize it in a misleading manner, or so it seems.
Of course, there are also other problems associated with DRM as it relates to fair use. But that is a topic for another day....
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Re: The real problem with DRM
There is a reason for that. DRM gives the seller absolute control over the user's access to the content they purchased. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Thus, DRM will always lead to abuse of the customer and will be most loved by the least trustworthy of companies.
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Re: The real problem with DRM
What? I didn't know that!
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How can anyone feel sorry for this guy...
I'm sorry, but this clearly screams "A fool and his money are soon parted!".
I get the gist of the topic's scope, but in truth, it's rather old. People won't stop buying DRM encoded crap. Then to turn and whine about it?
Please. There are plenty of alternatives which don't have DRM.
It's ironic to see how "innovative" the Kindle has been only to be newsworthy of how non-innovative its software is.
By the way: Love the quote "Reading is stealing!". How damn true that is anymore.
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sounds worse that it is
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Re: sounds worse that it is
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greyputer...
It's the same thing anyone should do, in the event of Amazon being down, hacked, whatever.
Anyone who really trusts the "cloud" to store their data is fooling themselves.
To say again: If he'd had copies of all his Kindle books on his computer, he could have loaded them right back on his Kindle. Amazon simply removed his access to WhisperNet.
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Seriously, there's nothing in the article that says that Amazon disabled this guy's Kindle or kept him from opening content that was already on his Kindle or stored on his computer - he just lost access to Whispernet and the copies of his purchased books that existed solely on Amazon's servers.
I don't think the Kindle store is like a subscription music service where you lose the ability to play all of your songs if the service is ever discontinued. I suspect that if the Kindle store ever goes away, we won't be able to purchase any new content, but the content we've already purchased will continue to work fine, as long as we had enough foresight to keep a copy of it on the Kindle itself or at least on our computer.
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"I don't think the Kindle store is like a subscription music service where you lose the ability to play all of your songs if the service is ever discontinued."
So, you state as fact what you have assumed based on what you think? Wow. And people complain that Mike doesn't back up his claims.
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Re-read the original article, and tell me if there's anything there that says that the guys lost access to content that was already on his Kindle/computer. Or find anything anywhere that says that the DRM on purchased Kindle books enables Amazon to deny you the use of books that are stored locally on the Kindle or on your computer.
The simplest scenario that fits all of the facts in the article is that this guy just lost his Amazon account and his access to his purchased book that were stored in the Amazon "cloud".
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Well, first there's the title: Returning Product To Amazon Could Brick Your Kindle. You do know what "brick" means, don't you?
Then, further down, they say "When this user's Amazon account was closed, he also lost access to all the books he had purchased, as well as the ability to shop for new material." Notice that they said "all". Not just those in the Amazon "cloud".
Seems pretty clear to me.
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Seriously, there's nothing in the article that says anything about Whispernet.
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Re:
Second if Amazon stops supporting it tomorrow, I'd still have even book I've purchased AND access to more (see above).
So everyone take a Valium and separate the device from the content. I don't see any of you refusing to use computers/iPods/... because some audio files have DRM.
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good points
Legit arguments aside, I will not buy this thing even though I'm a longstanding Amazon customer. I don't want any proprietary DRM crap, so that's automatically a deal-breaker.
And for today's ad hominem attack - "Kindle" is such a stupid, wimpy name.
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If apple can........
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Re:
But the Kindle never needs to "phone home" to Amazon to work. In fact, other than the initial setup when you first buy it, you can turn the wireless capability off and never use it again, and continue to buy books from the Kindle Store. Having the wireless turned off just means that when you buy a book, you have to download it to your computer instead of the Kindle. Then you mount the Kindle on your desktop like an external drive and copy the book over. You can even be disconnected from the internet when you do the transfer, so no "phoning home" is required at this step, either.
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don't buy DRM
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Kindle Bricks
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Re: Kindle Bricks
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Re: Re: Kindle Bricks
Your points are well made. It would help if others read the device's user guide before lobbing grenades at Amazon.
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Re: Re: Kindle Bricks
"Returning Product To Amazon Could Brick Your Kindle"
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I may have looked into it more - but amazon controlling what I buy, after I buy it?
Not.
I passed and Listen to this amazon - I went to a USED book store and found the book I was looking for, along with buying about 5 more while I was there.
You know - it REKINDLED an interest on my part to visit a REAL bookstore, you may have lost a decent amount of business there. Not only am I turned off from Kindle completely now, but I may not even buy physical books from Amazon now...
So is that where the name comes from? it's a device to 're-kindle' my interest in brick and mortar bookstores? Odd, if not - because that's just what it did.
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Maybe in his case, who knows - but look at my above post.. So yes - they lost at least one legit sale I made, and perhaps - many, many more.
I was surprised at the prices at the book store - a lot cheaper than I had thought they were. I guess perhaps they also have 'kindled' some competition?
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Mike -
From your commentary:
"First, it's worrisome that Amazon would just cancel this guy's account with no warning, no full explanation and no method to appeal the decision."
From the original article:
"Ultimately, the user appealed to Amazon and it reinstated his account..."
Where exactly did you come up with "no method to appeal the decision"?
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Re: Mike -
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People with this sort of problem should take Amazon to small claims court and force them to refund the price paid for the device and all books purchased for it.
It is a good bet Amazon's shysters won't turn up. And you win. Then blog the hell out of it.
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Yeah, there's an App for That...
Thanks, Steve, can't wait for that 10" multi-touch netbook...
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Re: Yeah, there's an App for That...
I hope that clears things up for you.
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Digital RENTAL Media
Understand that and you will get what you pay for.
a RENTAL!
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DONT BUY ANYTHING WITH DRM!
If you do and this happens, your own fault for buying into the BULLSHIT that DRM is not RENTAL MEDIA, YOU DO NOT AND WILL NOT EVER OWN ANYTHING YOU BUY THAT INCLUDES DRM. PERIOD.
Maybe some of these companies will get the message that DRM is not acceptable, and for those whom don't , enjoy bancruptcy
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Divx - Buy a DVD with lifetime viewing rights, only it was for the company's lifetime, not yours. Many people had DVD's they could no longer watch.
MLB - Buy a video from their website, but you can only watch it until the next time MLB decides to change DRM providers.
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Re:
Of course, when their DIVX players eventually die, they'll be out of luck, but the same is true of any older format that's become obsolete. If you needed to buy a Betamax or laserdisc player today, you'd probably face the same problems.
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How many people were really left with DIVX discs they couldn't play?
All of them.
The way I remember it, when the DIVX standard died in 1999,...
Err, DIVX was never a standard. It was proprietary.
...all of the discs that had already been sold were "opened up" permanently,...
You seem to have a, how shall I say it, "conveniently creative" memory. That did not happen.
...and people that had bought a player before a certain date received a $100 refund.
On a now useless player that had originally cost several hundred dollars. What a deal.
Just say no to DRM.
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DIVX
Second, I didn't have a DIVX player, but I believe I got the story straight. I found several articles from the period when DIVX was discontinued that confirmed that DIVX discs that users had upgraded to "silver" status to allow unlimited plays still worked after the format was discontinued. Of course, you couldn't do the $4.99 "rental" thing with DIVX discs after the discontinuation, but that makes sense, since no one was renting the discs after that point anyway.
Also, the DIVX players at the time were fairly close in price to regular DVD players, usually within $50-100. The DIVX players could play regular DVDs just fine, so the $100 rebate was essentially compensation for the DIVX players out there being only useful as regular DVD players. The players weren't rendered "useless" when DIVX was discontinued.
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Re: DIVX
Not pedantic, just truthful. Something you seem to have a problem with.
DIVX was never an "open standard", but it was still a "standard" in the sense that it was a prescribed method of encoding data onto medium.
DIVX was never a standard issued by ANY generally recognized standards body. So to call it a "standard" is dishonest.
I found several articles from the period when DIVX was discontinued that confirmed that DIVX discs that users had upgraded to "silver" status to allow unlimited plays still worked after the format was discontinued.
Unlimited plays until June 30, 2001, that is, which is NOT "permanently", as you claimed. Unless you can can show that that June 30, 2001 was "forever" because time stopped on that date. Good luck with that one.
Also, the DIVX players at the time were fairly close in price to regular DVD players, usually within $50-100.
When thy came out they were more like $100-200 more than DVD players, and DVD players were selling for $200-300 at the time. So someone could have easily paid $300-500 for a DIVX player.
The DIVX players could play regular DVDs just fine, so the $100 rebate was essentially compensation for the DIVX players out there being only useful as regular DVD players. The players weren't rendered "useless" when DIVX was discontinued.
That would seem to depend on the model. I knew someone who bought one and it would only play DIVX discs. And there was a time after DIVX was discontinued that you practically couldn't give a DIVX player away, yet people were buying DVD players left and right. Why do you think no one wanted a DIVX player if it was such a great DVD player?
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Re: Re: DIVX
Hmm, he didn't mention that part.
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Much ado about nothing.
If you go on the "Mobileread" forum or the Amazon Kindle forum, you can find out more about the subject's story (his username is "Ian".
Basically, here's what happened:
1) Ian's habit of "excessive" returns set off an automated flag on Amazon's computer, and his account was suspended. As a related consequence, he also couldn't access Kindle books that were stored in Amazon's "cloud".
2) He complained to Amazon using the special customer service email address **that was included in the form email he got from Amazon notifying him of his account cancellation**, and Amazon reinstated his account.
Amazon never "bricked" his Kindle in any real sense of the word. The device still booted up and worked normally (other than not being able to access the Kindle Store), and all the content that was stored locally on his Kindle (even Kindle books) was still accessible. The first customer-service agent he spoke with even pointed out that there were other ways to get content on the Kindle other than buying it from the Kindle Store.
Importantly, there's still no evidence that the Kindle DRM includes any kind of "poison pill" that allows Amazon to remotely disable a Kindle, or even render purchased books unreadable, as long as you have a copy on your computer or on the Kindle itself.
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Re: Much ado about nothing.
And saying something like "If you go on the Mobileread forum or the Amazon Kindle forum..." is kind of like saying "If you go on the Internet...". That doesn't exactly cut it for a reference. You need to cite the specific URLs.
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Re: Re: Much ado about nothing.
http://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44350
And here's one to a Consumerist thread about the same person:
http://consumerist.com/5213774/amazon-can-ban-you-from-your-kindle-account-whenever-it-likes
Interestingly, Chris Walters (who wrote the commentary at Consumerist) actually seems to know how a Kindle works, and that it's possible to store copies of purchased books both on the Kindle itself and on your computer, so that you can continue to read them even after your Amazon account's been canceled.
You can find the other links yourself - I've already done *much* more research on this than either Mike or the author of the original article that Mike commented on. I guess being "bloggers" rather than "journalists" absolves them of any responsibility when it comes to fact-checking or research. Instead, all they have to do is come up with the most incendiary headline/commentary possible to keep those ad clicks coming.
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Re: Re: Re: Much ado about nothing.
As far as backing up the books to your own computer is concerned, there's a problem with that too because of the DRM. You see, the books backed up on your computer would be tied to your specific Kindle with DRM, which would work OK until your Kindle died or got destroyed or lost or stolen or something. At that point you would be at the mercy of Amazon because the only way to regain access to your books would be to replace it and have Amazon transfer your book access to your new device. And if they've banned you because you wouldn't accept defective products or they discontinued the kindle "service" or maybe they just weren't in the mood to cooperate, they you'd be up the creek. Nice, huh?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Much ado about nothing.
And while DRM on the Kindle does introduce some potentially-serious problems such as the ones you described, none of them are the problems that Ian had. Even if the Kindle books were completely unprotected .TXT files, Ian still would have lost access to his purchased books that existed solely on Amazon's computers because he didn't keep a copy on his Kindle or his computer (both of which are trivially-easy to do). So again, the problem was really with Amazon's cancellation of his account, not the fact that the e-books had DRM.
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