Entitlement Society: Grad Can't Find Job, Sues Her College For Tuition Back

from the entitlement-culture-gone-wrong dept

Mon, Aug 3rd 2009 9:55am — Mike Masnick

We've been talking a lot about "entitlement culture" these days, with much of the focus being on companies or individuals who feel entitled to keep their old business models, even as the market is changing. But entitlement society shows up in other places as well. Jeff Nolan points us to the story of a college graduate who has been unable to find a job since she graduated in April and is now suing her college, Monroe College, for the $70,000 she spent on tuition. Apparently, the fact that we're in one of the worst economic downturns in ages doesn't come into play. Or the fact that what you learn in college (hopefully) lasts a lifetime. To this woman, the fact that she hasn't been able to find a job in four months means she deserves her entire tuition back?

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Filed Under: college, entitlement, monroe college, tuition

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Travis Miller (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 9:59am

entitlement-culture-gone-wrong dept
I laughed at the "dept" on this one. Can anyone give an example of entitlement-culture-gone-right?
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K Max, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:02am

Missed that class
Looks like she skipped the classes on Patience.
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Ima Fish (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:05am

God, what degree did she get? With my undergrad in philosophy I was qualified for a number of employment opportunities with the likes of Taco Bell, K-Mart, and a local factory.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:06am

Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
She should have sued the banks who imploded the economy, and created some $286T in derivatives.

Note that the entire world economy is about $65 trillion, and the United States at about $14 trillion... yeah, that's a lot of entitlements.

http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/14113089?f=most_read

But you're right. When we talk about the Entitlement Society, we should do away with it all, starting with Social Security and also look into creating some legal mechanism that has the ability to revoke corporate charters.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:14am

look into creating some legal mechanism that has the ability to revoke corporate charters.

Huh? Why?
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:19am

To be fair, it seems that her complains is less that she can't find a job and more that the school "hasn't tried hard enough" to help her find a job. That may or may not be the case, but it's a bit different than suing your school because you can't find a job. From the article, she makes it sound like the school promised aid and couselling in finding a job... If that's the case, and they failed to deliver a promised service, maybe there's grounds for a suit -- though at that a full $70k seems high...
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:23am

Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
starting with Social Security

I thought we'd already killed that horse. I'm fairly certain I won't be seeing any of it, at least.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:25am

From what I've heard, this school may have been a degree mill where you get a degree no matter what you do or learn as long as you pay your tuition. The problem may lie in that this girl thought it was a real college only to find out that employers avoid students from this college.

The article could have been written better and included more facts relevant to the case.
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yozoo, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:27am

You can do that?
count me in!
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:30am

"We've been talking a lot about "entitlement culture" these days"

I think its kinda cute how pundits and social commentors have been talking about Americas looming "entitlement society" since about 1776 . . .
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Rob, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:33am

This may not be all that ridiculous...
If the school advertised career assistance as a selling point and then offered next to nothing on graduation, she could have a case. After graduating from a college which I will not name, I was told that I would be offered extensive career development services as well, but was offered little that I could not have found on monster.com, even after chasing after the people at the school to help me. Granted, I never felt that it would have been legit to sue and I wasn't planning on needing much help from them, but they should still be held accountable for all their advertised claims. Obviously, this case would be next to impossible to fight, but her complaints at least may not (or very well may) be without merit.
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Karen in Wichita, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:36am

What AC #8 said
That was my first thought on seeing this article: many little jumped-up technical colleges use their job placement service as a very strong selling point, so the lawsuit might not be that unreasonable. One (now-defunct-and-rightly-so) local "college" was essentially a paid job placement service with a token classroom attached; if they didn't find *something* I think one would have a valid case for breach of contract or something similar. (I think it was lawsuits that sunk 'em, in fact.)

Monroe may not operate that way, and almost certainly isn't that extreme a case even if it does, but I'd bet it still made more (unwritten?) promises than your more "standard" university does.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:36am

some schools make statements about the graduation placement rate and discuss at length the supposedly good prospects for graduates. To the extent she can prove this occurred and that upon graduation they did nothing to get her such a job, and that the numbers were faked or something, she definitely has a case. However, if the school's numbers are legit and she's just a dud at interviews or something, then here's no case at all.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:38am

Re:
That's a good point, but if you look into the college you'll see it is fully accredited and they have a large "career advancement" section to help students find jobs and internships.
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Adrian A, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:40am

Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
It took me over 6 months to find a decent job in Bellingham, WA after I graduated with a BA. In fact I had to temp with the company that hired me for 3 months beforehand. This is the reality of the job market, even in good times. If you're someone who's fresh out of college with minimal job experience of any kind... you're going to have a difficult time getting any worthwhile job unless you have a specialized degree that allows for instant placement (i.e. comp-sci, nursing, accounting, etc.)

Just roll with it. If you have to make ends meet with dead-end minimum-wage work for 6 months before you have the experience to get something better than so be it. You can't blame the school for going for that degree in "Art History" that nobody is actively hiring for.
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Neil (SM), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:44am

Sigh
The college's response seemed off the mark:
"The college prides itself on the excellent career-development support that we provide to each of our students, and this case does not deserve further consideration."

How about pointing out that any university promises it's students nothing more than an education, and is by no means obligated to secure employment for students.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:47am

Good lucking finding a job after pulling that stunt!
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aguywhoneedstenbucks (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:49am

Re:
Ima, someone with your qualifications would have no trouble finding a top-flight job in either the food service or housekeeping industries.
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Alan Gerow (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:50am

Re:
Because it's progressive. It slowly gets worse and worse. So, the talk started in 1776 as people felt entitled to have a representative voice in Parliament in exchange for taxation ... and over the years has gone to people feeling entitled to being able to tax other people for any and all use of their writing/artwork.

Not really cute. It's not as if there's a magic line that people can go "there! society has crossed it. NOW we're an entitlement culture". It's just that each generation goes through another step, and then points at the progress in their lifetime, or from the previous generation.
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stat_insig (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:51am

Education insurance
Probably she will win the case. Then insurance companies start offering unemployment insurance to the colleges. Colleges start charging additional fees to cover insurance costs............so on
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John Doe, 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:53am

Count me in...
I graduated with a BS in '89 and had to go one more year for my MS because I couldn't find a job. Now we were in somewhat of a recession but still, can I get my extra years tuition back? ;)
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Dark Helmet (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:55am

sigh
If I could shortsell a person, she'd be the one...
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dhrizzo (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:57am

Individuals owe society not the other way around.
The problem is that even with a college degree you can't fix STUPID!
To many people think the world owes them something. They don't get it. It is the individual that owes the world (society)something. This is the problem with our entitlement system, it trains people to think the world owes them things rather than the way it really is.
People owe themselves and society to work hard and prosper for their own good and the good of all (society).
This include acts of charity,for it is better to give than to receive. In giving the giver receives, he/she receives a sense of good, of knowing that your good deed has helped another less fortunate than you. It takes the mind off of self and puts it on others. When you think of other first, your problems seem to become less important. You become happier and more content. Well, Nuf said.
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MAtt, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:00am

Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
What? Are you kidding? Haven't the few bleeding-heart responses to this article taught you anything? This university has a duty - nay, an obligation to make good on their subjective claim. This woman has been disenfranchised!

Or, she is of below-average intelligence and/or has been taught that she deserves something for which the rest of us have to work. As the great prophet said about 'potential,' "Not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up."
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:00am

Rant for teh unemployed bloggarz out thar
I betcha Monroe College is a "special" college for the elite. Western Washington University... Well, not so much.

Hey, Adrian, yay to you for getting off your ass and finding a job! Now, if only she could do the same instead of being a leech on society and draining the unemployment trust for 4 months (which, who knows, maybe went to file her lawsuit and pay her attorney.)
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Simple Sam, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:05am

Re: Rant for teh unemployed bloggarz out thar
Excellent Point.
If she got unemployment benefits or $$$, as taxpayers, we should ask for it back.
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Jim G., 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:06am

I wonder if Trina Thompson is aware that her name will be linked to this lawsuit for years? Any prospective employer who googles her will almost certainly find the public record of these events. She might as well put on her resume "I AM A TROUBLEMAKER AND YOU WILL REGRET HIRING ME."
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C.M.Dess, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:07am

I think she's doing a good thing. The job scene needs improvement and intervention, period. This situation sounds similar to the music business, they keep chucking out graduates so they can go to work at Guitar Center or other music retailer. Meanwhile the career itself requires a lot of sales like infrastructure. It's obviously demoralizing, and false advertising. Most graduates I've encountered never got the job they signed up for or anything close. We're talking about PRECIOUS years of life here.

Would a share holder put up with not getting a return on their investment? Yet you expect a person who just chucked four years of their life, sanity, and money, they should get the big mac experience? We don't know how hard it was for this person to get into college, maybe her mother mortgaged the house, etc... Colleges have been treating people like this for decades as the job pool is getting smaller and smaller from more and more graduates appearing. Not to mention the fact the jobs are often evolving as the person is learning an older business model.

I've never understood why people who've done the work on good faith aren't being rewarded for their efforts. If you do this to a person, you can expect a lot of contempt, repress anger and distrust. It used to be you could use the analogy of a carrot on a stick, but now things seem more comparable to a mouse trap on a stick.

The system of jammed.
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2gravey, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:08am

Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
Oh,it's still alive. You can tell because you still have to feed it. While you might be right that you (or I) won't be seeing any of it, the last time I looked at my paystub, SS was consuming a larger chunk than income tax does.
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Jrosen (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:08am

Notice......
Notice that there's no mention of what this person's Major/Degree was in. If it's dead languages of Mesopotamia, or something equally useless. Employment problems are on the rise, and I've never seen a truly good college-placement/employment-help program, unless it's a 'good old boy' type, say with an Ivy-League type.

I'd hope she loses the lawsuit. I'd almost say the college should sue-back, but likely she's so broke it's not worth the effort.
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Aaron Martin-Colby (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:09am

Give her a chance
I actually disagree with the criticisms of the woman. I don't know much about it, yet, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

To me, this particular case isn't necessarily about entitlement culture. I think it's about the business agreement many people make with their chosen university. Yes, what you learn in college will be with you for your entire life, but most people don't go in for such philosophical reasons. They go in to get a good job.

And universities advertise the hell out of that. Why go to Harvard? Why go to Brown? I've gone to both the Community College of Rhode Island and Brown. University of Rhode Island and Rhode Island college. My best experiences? The community college.

You pay a premium for the connections the prestigious university gives you. Those universities use those connections as selling points to explain their comical tuition fees. If they fail at giving you value, they are not holding up their end of the "contract."

So she may truly be a self-entitled idiot, but it's not necessary that she is.
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:10am

Mikey, Mikey, where is your shame ?
Monroe College ?

How bout Berkley or Stanford grads flipping burgers for 10$ an hour and doing unpaid work for equity in some shitty startup in SV ?

Never seen one ?

Mikey is a paid shill for large tech multinationals

AS such he will eventually get what he deserves - a good kick in the butt from some disgruntled unemployed IT worker
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:11am

Re: Individuals owe society not the other way around.
I'd say you are both wrong. But if I had to pick which one to go with your method is far better. Course you can just be taking your position to an extreme case.

Pure leeches in society rarely prosper and don't do that well and this entitlement stuff is just another face. They want everything and don't want anyone to have anything else.

Taking your statements to the extreme... shooting out gumdrops and rainbows everywhere will probably make you a far better person and a good number of people will always be there to have your back in tough times but it's going to unlikely you are going to achieve the rich and crazy life style of corporate CEOs.

It's all about playing the "game" where you try to take more than what you receive. The problem with "entitlement" is they seem to want to take take take take from society without so much as putting a dime in or helping an old lady cross the street.
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Aaron Martin-Colby (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:11am

Re: What AC #8 said
I agree. Those unwritten promises can be SWEEPING. My friend went to North Eastern for computer science. During the courting process (Back in the days of the tech boom) they told all of them that would have jobs before they even graduated and be driving Porsche's by 25. My friend's 29, now, and he's driving a Kia. He also regrets going to N. Eastern and being saddled with $95,000 in loans.
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Henry Paulsen, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:18am

Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
Mike's estranged 5th Uncle (Mom's side of the family-- where the Economists are), Paul Krugman, wrote an op-ed piece about this phenomenon in today's NY Times. Link provided:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/opinion/03krugman.html
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:20am

Re: Mikey, Mikey, where is your shame ?
Angry dude is right on this one. The burger king by my house has two Stanford grads on the grill and PhD from MIT working drivethrough . . . dark days my friends.
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:20am

Re: Re: What AC #8 said
"My friend's 29, now, and he's driving a Kia. He also regrets going to N. Eastern and being saddled with $95,000 in loans"

Your friend is lucky if he actually owns Kia and doesn't have a jumbo 400K mortgage on a house which he can sell for only 250K today...

The fresh CS and EE grads are screwed BIG time....
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Kevin Stapp (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:21am

Re: Give her a chance
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt as well. Before we judge let's see if we can get her
- transcript
- resume
- list of jobs she has applied
- offers were made (if any)

Also, let's find out how many of her fellow graduates have had a similar experience. Did any of her fellow graduates with the same degree and GPA get a job or has her entire graduating class ended up in the unemployment line?

There is a perception among many college graduates that a degree and decent grades automatically means a good job and a decent salary. It doesn't. Period. A degree simply demonstrates the individual's ability to learn the material and complete the program. It gives you an advantage when applying to jobs in your field of study over those applicants who lack credentials. That it. A degree is a single line item on your resume. The rest is up to you.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:22am

Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
wait how can Mike be both a "shill for off shoring multi-nationals" and a relative of Paul Krugman . . . can he really hate his own kin that much?
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:27am

Re: Re: Give her a chance
Dude,
If 95% of college grads are out of work after 6 months then such college should be dismantled

Flipping burgers does not qualify as professional work

We are talking potential class-action lawsuits here from the dusgruntled Class of 2009 (and a good kick in Mikey's butt)
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:28am

Re: Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
It's a diversion for techdirt lemming punks

can't fool the rest of us
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John Doe, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:30am

Re: Re: Give her a chance
Your last paragraph sums it up perfectly. I didn't get a job at first because I didn't know how to interview. Once I learned how to interview, I got several offers and most jobs I have applied for since. A degree and grades are only the first step, the rest is up to you.
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Rob, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:30am

@Matt --

What? Are you kidding? Haven't the few bleeding-heart responses to this article taught you anything? This university has a duty - nay, an obligation to make good on their subjective claim. This woman has been disenfranchised!

Or, she is of below-average intelligence and/or has been taught that she deserves something for which the rest of us have to work. As the great prophet said about 'potential,' "Not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up."

Why shouldn't the university have to make good on their claims? If she, in good faith, gave this school tens of thousands of dollars based on a promise by the school that they will offer her significant career placement when she gets out, why should she not expect it? There are not enough details as to the promises made by the school and the treatment they gave her, but it is certainly par for the course for schools to make those sorts of false promises -- as I said before I graduated from a school that promised me up and down that they would use all their connections out there to help me find a job and in the end offered me little that I could not find on monster.com. I can't see how this can be construed as anything other than blatantly false advertising, and if this is the case then she certainly does have a lawsuit and I hope she wins and teaches these schools that they have to live up to their promises.
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John Doe, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:31am

Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
Do what? The Class of 2009 is screwed because of the economy, not because of the college.

Normally you are pretty funny, but this time you are just plain wrong.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:32am

Re: Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
Yes.
Krugman grew up on the "good side" of long island with a silver spoon. Point is, it's a long-running family feud. I've already said too much!
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
Just try to get one interview today, idiot

Remember, your shitty resume is just one of 800 sitting on HR desk (hard drive)

What do you put on it to make it stand out ?

A picture of your naked ass ?
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John Doe, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
Huh? So it is the college's fault that the economy is in the tank? What exactly is your argument/point here?
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TPBer (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:39am

@ Angry Dude
I still want a t-shirt that says,

"I Partied With Angry Dude"
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
Dude, you have no clue

With Stanford and berkley grads flipping burgers employers just laugh at those poor sobs with BS from Monroe college

The party is over, the gravy train is long gone

Obtainiong IT degree from the likes of Monroe college does not make any sense
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Michial Thompson, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:40am

So Entitlement Societies are bad???
So the hypocritical preaching of this blog owner comes out. It's ok to feel entitled to someone Else's creative works for free, but at the same time being entitled to what one was promised before attending the college is bad????

So I guess as long as it furthers one's agenda it's ok to be entitled...
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maniac in a speedo, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:46am

princess
This chick will make a great wife for some Jewish guy.
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Bob, 3 Aug 2009 @ 11:50am

Word.
"So the hypocritical preaching of this blog owner comes out. It's ok to feel entitled to someone Else's creative works for free, but at the same time being entitled to what one was promised before attending the college is bad????"

Self-determined schmelf-determined.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:04pm

Re:
thats funny. i got a decent tech support job w/my philosophy degree. oh wait. its how you spin the degree
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Peter, 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:13pm

Honey. Shut up and do what I did.
Same thing happened to me in 1991. I graduated with a Advertising and Marketing Degree. The economy was tanked and the Tech boom had not started yet.

But that was not the problem. I was the problem. I was applying for Account Manager positions. No one hires a college grad for management or money controlling positions.

She needs to get a clue. Do what I did.

Work you but off at three jobs. While trying to get the Gov't to lend a healthy white American, Small Busines Admin (SBA) money, so you can start a company. Oh wait, tried that, that doesn't work either.

Just beg your father's friends to give you a help desk job and work your way to owning a company with 90 employees doing security consulting for businesses.

Yep, that is what I did. Now I get to sit here on TechDirt all day while those talented individuals help me pay for my 60 foot boat and my daughters college so she doesn't have debt.

Thanks Aquinas College (Grand Rapids, Michigan).
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Just Another Moron in a Hurry, 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:20pm

I can relate.
As a college grad, I can somewhat relate to her situation.

When I was just signing up for college, I was told that my degree would basically guarantee me a $60,000/yr starting salary. Well, it didn't.

I was able to find a job, but even today, my salary isn't that great. I'd like to see a proportional refund on my tuition. Or at least a reduction in the interest, which I'm still paying.
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Alan Gerow (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:26pm

Re: Individuals owe society not the other way around.
I don't owe society anything, other than the agreements I have made as an adult without being under duress.

Of course, society doesn't owe me anything, either. My parents owe me 18 years of care because of their decisions/actions that brought me into this life ... but that's about it, and my mom has paid that & more.

But me owing society anything? Naw, because I had no say in the society I was born in to.

I have a personal obligation to see to the betterment of myself and the world & people around me that I love & support. But I don't owe anything, and it's an obligation I have placed on myself because I see value in my personal life from increasing the value others get from their lives.

Are you viewing this as an extension of "original sin"? You have to apologize for & work off being born in the first place? Or, do you view just being born into a society as a form of contractual agreement between a 0-minute-old baby & the place they happened to come out of the womb at?
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:40pm

If I am reading this correctly she didn't use the job placement resources until AFTER she graduated. If this is the case, that is where she went horribly wrong and she is the one to blame. Even if the job market is strong, there would be no reason not to start job hunting/shopping before graduation.
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Rob, 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:44pm

Re: Honey. Shut up and do what I did.
@Peter -- Shut up. Just because you were lucky enough to have daddy's friends give your a job doesn't mean that everyone else has the same doors open to them, some people have to *gasp!* make a life for themselves. In this case, any help you can get can make a life or death difference. I have news for you man, I am sure you worked your ass off, but you are extraordinarily lucky, most people won't be able to do what you have done even if they work harder than you and are more qualified than you. If you had daddy's friends get your foot in the door, I am sure they also were pulling strings for you to advance. You are lucky, that's all, and gloating about it makes you look like the douche that you almost certainly are.
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LCarr, 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:49pm

College tuition back
Does that mean that when she gets a job she will give them her paycheck for a period of time. If that was the case with all colleges there would not be the need for federal loans.

Think before you speak.
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Adam, 3 Aug 2009 @ 12:55pm

This gal went to B-School... She just needs to take a hint from The Onion and get a few jobs.

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/more_american_workers_outsourcing
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The Cenobyte, 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:04pm

Always thought that University was for people unwilling or unable to educate themselves. $70,000 so that you can be lazy and not learn what you need. I have a GED and I could pay the full costs of her education out of pocket with less and one years income. I taught myself or learned on the job what I needed to know, started earlier than people that kept going to school and didn't give myself that extra debt. So when people my age finished school at 22 or 23 I had been in the work force for 6 or 7 years.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:10pm

My question is, what company would dare hire her now after seeing her pull a stunt like that.
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Tech Exec, 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:17pm

Society of Victims
I am not sure why anyone would assume that a college degree meant that you would be guaranteed a job. Your resume, filled with experience and academia, will get you an interview - but you have to earn the job.

We live in a victim's society with no sense of shame. No matter what negative thing happens, it is always someone else's fault. It's my gender, my sexual preference, my race, my religion, my choice of pets, my musical taste... anything but my fault. It could never be that I have a bad attitude, no true talent, no true work skills, no true people skills, no ability to dress myself for the job, no ability to speak proper English... oh no, it can't be me. It must be you, your fault, your prejudice, your stereotyping and profiling. **News Flash** - it's just you.

Companies are in business to make money. As much as I despise corporations and profit motive culture (which is at fault for our current economic crisis, most of our military conflicts, and many of our social woes), they are focused on making money, which includes putting the right person in the right job. They don't care about any of the aforementioned prejudices or stereotypes that you have been told to believe - they hire the person that can make them successful. That doesn't have to be you, and most assuredly won't be you if you can't demonstrate the ability to be the right person - and not just on paper. Don't let your arrogance get in the way of your success - you have to work hard and earn your way. This woman is sueing because she thinks she deserves more than she is worth, and she errantly believes it must be someone else's fault.

btw - Monroe College is accredited by the Commission on Higher Education of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools. Not a diploma mill.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:20pm

Sue 'em all
Colleges - both the fake and the real ones - sell the idea that you need a degree to get a good job and with a degree you'll make gazillions more. They actually advertise this crap. Personally I think more people ought to start suing them. Then maybe they'd have to tell the truth about what you get for all your money: A few years off before you have to start working.
College is the biggest scam going - makes Madoff look like a piker.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:45pm

Re: So Entitlement Societies are bad???
So the hypocritical preaching of this blog owner comes out. It's ok to feel entitled to someone Else's creative works for free, but at the same time being entitled to what one was promised before attending the college is bad????

Michial, I'm not sure I understand you. When have I ever said anyone was entitled to someone else's creative works for free? I have not.

You seem to be projecting what you dislike on me.

But I would suggest actually reading what I write. I've discussed this directly with you in the past. You lying about what I say doesn't make you any more believable. It just makes you less credible.
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:45pm

Re: Honey. Shut up and do what I did.
"Just beg your father's friends to give you a help desk job and work your way to owning a company with 90 employees doing security consulting for businesses."

Punky

perhaps you should know that the days of advancing from Help Desk up the corporate ladder are long over

YOu come to Help desk - you stay in Help Desk

(unless you dad is CEO's friend and drinking buddy)

So STFU please
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Mike Masnick (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:46pm

Re: Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
wait how can Mike be both a "shill for off shoring multi-nationals" and a relative of Paul Krugman . . . can he really hate his own kin that much?

While amazingly funny, I must admit that neither claim is true... nor, by the way, was that video someone posted the other day, claiming to me of me 15 years ago of me. I am, however, incredibly amused at the creativity of some commenters around here! Keep it up!
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Otm Shank (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:47pm

Re:
That was nice of Mike to "protect" her name at least on this site. Commenters take care of that :)

Seriously, she will have a much harder time finding a job, and she had better change her name/get married before she tries to get a master's degree! Then again, her transcripts will probably have a note (is that legal?) about her lawsuit.

Hope she sued for enough money for a shovel, too!
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:50pm

Re: Society of Victims
STFU punky

I repeate once more for retards like you - in the present environment obtaining IT degree fro mthe likes of Monroe collge is just laughable

She should have known better...

it's brutal out there

And NO ,for many decent qualified and experienced IT folks it's not them - it;s korporate america's greed

SO just STFU
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Chuck Norris' Enemy (deceased) (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:55pm

Re: Re: Re: What AC #8 said
If you have an EE degree go into Power Systems...work at a utility. Lots of work and the dinosaurs are retiring like crazy with a huge gap in between.
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 1:57pm

Re: Re:
" and she had better change her name/get married before she tries to get a master's degree"

They'll sell you BS degree, MS degree, Phd degree, if there is enough money

Probably just ask you sign some "no lawsuit" paper, that;s all
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Kevin, 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:02pm

Re: Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
What? Are you kidding? Haven't the few bleeding-heart responses to this article taught you anything? This university has a duty - nay, an obligation to make good on their subjective claim. This woman has been disenfranchised!

It's hard to tell if you're making fun or her or the responses, but I haven't seen any bleeding heart responses that seem to mesh with what you're saying. Generally speaking, if you pay tuition and earn a degree then you have gotten everything that you paid for and would have no basis to sue. You obviously aren't entitled to a job. I think that's mostly obvious, and it's also the basis for the negative reaction to this suit.

That being said, there are a number of colleges, especially technical schools (some of which are accredited), that do promise a great deal of job placement or employment assistance. I've heard cases where local "enrollment councilors" at the schools have literally guaranteed potential students that they will be able to find work after graduation through their placement services. I know of at least one case where the school had to actually hire a couple of students to help maintain their systems because the promises fell short.

Now most reasonable people would hear the claim of a "guaranteed job upon graduation" and run the other way, recognizing this as a pure marketing tactic with little to no bearing on reality. But I have no doubt that some people would be taken in by such a claim, and literally expect the school to make good on it. I don't know if that is what happened in this case, but if a school (or any business) makes a guarantee and then fails to make good on it, shouldn't they be held responsible? If you went to such a school based on their guarantee, then found yourself at graduation unable to find work or pay your bills, AND with another $70,000 in debt on top of that, wouldn't you want something done about it?

Granted, in the case that I mentioned people shouldn't be so stupid as to believe that a school can guarantee them employment upon graduation. But on the other hand, a school shouldn't be able to make false or exaggerated claims about their services either. Most schools simply guarantee that if you graduate you'll get a degree, and that's the end of it.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
[quote]Granted, in the case that I mentioned people shouldn't be so stupid as to believe that a school can guarantee them employment upon graduation. But on the other hand, a school shouldn't be able to make false or exaggerated claims about their services either. Most schools simply guarantee that if you graduate you'll get a degree, and that's the end of it.[/quote]

Exactly the point I was trying to make (and failing at). I was a fool, I fell for the marketing, and I'm paying for it. I'm not suing anyone because I don't have the job I was guaranteed. And even if I was going to sue someone, I wouldn't expect to get my entire tuition back. It did have a great deal of value for me. Just not as much as was promised. If I were to sue someone, it would only be to stop the schools from being able to make guarantees that they can't deliver on.
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Rollo, 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:18pm

As an unemployed, uninsured recent engineering grad with a $150,000 education and a sizable debt, I have no patience for the bitching so many people do when they can't find work. I KNOW how bad it sucks, I KNOW the economy is terrible. I'm every bit as burned out and frustrated as anybody else out there. But bitching about it, or suing your alma mater, is not going to get you work. Just keep your nose to the grindstone and keep looking. Sooner or later things will turn around. This isn't the 19th century, nobody's going to starve to death because they can't find work after college.

Pretty much anyone who went to a semi-reputable school was promised job-search ASSISTANCE, unfortunately, people have this idea that that means the school will FIND them a job. Nobody is going to find you work but yourself.
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senshikaze (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:21pm

Re:
Drive by degree's? We have a "University" near by that has the same reputation. I know anyone in the local tech business has no job opportunities if they receive a tech degree from said school.
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angry dude, 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:32pm

Re:
"Sooner or later things will turn around."

Afraid not, my little clueless techdirt reader

At least not in tech

IT and tech in general are following textile industry path.... offshore and never coming back.. at least not until the living standards here in US equal those in India or China for most of the population
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Fatduck (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:38pm

Re:
Would a share holder put up with not getting a return on their investment? Yet you expect a person who just chucked four years of their life, sanity, and money, they should get the big mac experience? Really? You mean I can buy stock in a company, and if the stock price drops, I can sue them and get my original investment back? Sweet!
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TPBer (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:52pm

SBDC
Her brain has been infected with the SBDC syndrome (stupid bitch, dumb cunt)
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 2:55pm

Re: Re:
There's some truth to that, unless, of course, people start demanding quality, and demanding to know where their product is coming from. But once you give the manufacturing keys to the dragon or elephant, it's not long before they're driving the car.
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bob, 3 Aug 2009 @ 3:43pm

Liberal Arts
I would say that if she graduated with a BA, she was robbed and should get her money back.
If you want the knowledge of a BA read the Harvard shelf of books. What's cool is that you can get them from the Gutenberg project for free.
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Rob, 3 Aug 2009 @ 4:05pm

Just to reiterate
She is not complaining that the school did not find her a job -- they are not obligated to do that and she is not entitled to that. The complaint is that the school is not doing enough to help her find a job -- and that they advertised their career placement programs heavily. If they promised her that when she started going to the school she is 100% entitled to assistance -- she PAID them tens of thousands of dollars in the expectation that after graduation they would help her find a job. If they are not providing these services, it is false advertising, plain and simple, and I hope she wins. Not sure if this is the case, she could just be a bum, but from what I have seen it is probably legit and if so, I hope she wins big time.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Aug 2009 @ 4:49pm

Speaking of entitlement society what about all the brats who think they can download music, because it is available for free on the internet.
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ratan, 3 Aug 2009 @ 5:08pm

Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
You mean STOP SS deductions or STOP paying SS??
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carly, 3 Aug 2009 @ 5:21pm

Please
Give me a break. there is a related post at http://iamsoannoyed.com/?page_id=588
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Cody Jackson (profile), 3 Aug 2009 @ 10:41pm

When are you guaranteed a job?
College isn't necessarily where you go to get job skills. You want that, go to a trade school. College is for learning ideas that can help you in your job or other future endeavors. Why do you think they allow people to audit classes without taking the tests?

Plus, no school will guarantee that you get a job. That's up to you, not the school.

The article never mentions what sort of degree she got, other than it's a "business" school. Not all business degrees are the same; not to mention business grads are a dime a dozen. It's a slightly better degree for jobs than, say, art major but unless you have something to back it up I doubt prospects are great.

How about start your own business? Small business loans are relatively easy to get from the fed, especially now.
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Andrew D. Todd, 4 Aug 2009 @ 1:43am

For Once, Angry Dude is Right-- At Least in Part.
I gather this woman is in the Bachelors program in Information Technology. Here are some relevant pages from the Monroe catalog:

http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/schoolsandprograms/coursecatalogs/courseofferings /IT09-10
http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/schoolsandprograms/informationtechnology/bbadegreei ninformationtechnology/degreerequirements
http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/schoolsandprograms /informationtechnology/bbadegreeininformationtechnology
http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/scho olsandprograms/otheracademicofferings/liberalarts/mathematics

What they come down to is a marginal program, with very little coursework above the high-school level, for marginal students, with very little mathematical capacity. I've seen this kind of thing before. They have these Cisco-certificate-type courses, courses on how to take a computer apart and put it back together again, etc. Of course, the main thing you need for that kind of thing is enough old computers that you can play with them, and not be uncontrollably concerned if you bust one.

Of course, there is a possible fraud issue. It's like what truck driving schools used to be like. They were famous for gaming the student loan system. They would string students along for as long as possible, making them take mickey-mouse courses, before giving them a chance to drive an 18-wheeler.
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Bri (profile), 4 Aug 2009 @ 4:54am

Say what?
Wait a minute here, the entitlement argument only applies to people who think they deserve special treatment when they haven't actually invested anything into the system. This seems to be a scenario of paying for services that were never rendered. Personally I think this is a positive thing as it makes universities actually accountable for the quality of their education. If you sell me a Lexus and I come to find out I actually got a Honda, you better damn well believe I am going to be angry. Just because I sign a check and enter the gates doesn't mean your duty to me is over. Universities don't play the customer service game very well, mostly because they are run more like government institutions rather than streamlined businesses, but their duty to the student body shouldn't be any less than any company that has a product or service to sell.
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Chris, 4 Aug 2009 @ 6:19am

She has a 2.7 GPA??!?!?!?!
From a crap school....wtf does she expect...

from wikipedia:

In August 2009, Trina Thompson, an April 2009 graduate in Information Technology, who was still without a job, sued Monroe College for failure to provide adequate job-placement assistance. [6] Her opinion in the claim is that with her 2.7 GPA and good attendance record, most employers would be interested in giving her a job. The case has received international publicity, including mention by BBC News. Ms. Thompson seeks $70,000 for reimbursement of her tuition. A College spokesperson said, "this case does not deserve further consideration". As of early August 2009, the lawsuit filed in Bronx Superior Court(US) had not yet been resolved.
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T M Beeker, 4 Aug 2009 @ 6:24am

The punch-line
Okay we agree this is a stupid reason to sue an institution. Take a look at how often individuals (even very entitled and stupid ones) win against institutions that juries perceive to have deep pockets. The punch-line to this tasteless joke is she could win and win big.

The mantra of modern American culture is, "Some institution has pooped in my pants, I am going to sue it for making such a mess." The institution should sue her for not using the career center and other free resources to help grads get a job.
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Chris, 4 Aug 2009 @ 6:34am

amazing...
Please read what this idiot wrote in the suit...

found here:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/03/thompson.pdf
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angry dude, 4 Aug 2009 @ 6:59am

Re: amazing...
This girl is obviously dumb and can't do any job

But the issues are big:

All IT programs offered by third-rate US "colleges" like Monroe should be shut down immediately as educational scams
Her "degree" is just laughable

Good accredited US universities should warn their prospective students about uncertain career prospects BEFORE taking any money from them
They should collect and publish statistics about the whereabouts of their graduates, not omitting anybody
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Aug 2009 @ 7:03am

Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
If they stopped FICA withholdings, Rich people really would have something to complain about concerning taxes. At least the ratio of tax to income would actually be higher for them (its not currently - if you consider FICA).
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DMNTD, 4 Aug 2009 @ 9:21am

hmm..
Well..I can't say that I am surprised...if I looked around I would prob find a lot of stories like this. Maybe not, I can say college has never proven itself to me or the various multitude of people I recognize.

Can't say I blame her.
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Alice, 5 Aug 2009 @ 9:10am

*shakes head*
The college promises career assistance. Which they do provide, probably in the way of workshops, along with their placement system. That doesn't mean they guarantee the job. She has no right to sue.

Also, I think she's confusing the fact that employers prefer a 4.0 student with the college "favoring" them.

Other news reports mention that she has a measly 2.7 in a BA business. Basically, qualifications to be secretary. I want to see what kind of jobs she's applying to.
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HAHA, 7 Aug 2009 @ 11:57am

Well I can guarentee one thing...
After this suit is filed and placed in courts, who the hell will hire her then?

If I was a hiring manager, she certainly wouldn't be on my list after suing for $70k. They should revoke her degree if that's the case.
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Incogni, 15 Sep 2009 @ 10:04am

I think that she has a right to be mad, but her anger is misdirected. Be mad at all powerful greedy corporations who have selfishly redesigned the global economic landscape for super-sized profit. The American economy has changed permanently because many companies have taken actions that will disenfranchise regular middle and working class people for years to come. But for all those who think it's easy to find a job right now fresh out of school are out of touch. A college degree isn't worth what is was 10 years ago, let alone one year ago. Up until two years ago, an average college student could spend 4 years or more majoring in spreading v.d. and developing alcoholism and still be able to land 100K a year job before graduation day. But now, even the most intelligent, talented and capable college grads are losing jobs and money to laid-off career veterans on the job rebound. Young people who aren't established have been hit hardest by the recession. Older folks who were lucky enough to secure themselves financially prior to the great recession are the real entitlement generation. The new generation of young people are experiencing the overwhelming and daunting task of establishing themselves in the worst economy since the 30's. Cut us a little slack Grandma and Grandpa.
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Incogni, 15 Sep 2009 @ 10:04am

I think that she has a right to be mad, but her anger is misdirected. Be mad at all powerful greedy corporations who have selfishly redesigned the global economic landscape for super-sized profit. The American economy has changed permanently because many companies have taken actions that will disenfranchise regular middle and working class people for years to come. But for all those who think it's easy to find a job right now fresh out of school are out of touch. A college degree isn't worth what is was 10 years ago, let alone one year ago. Up until two years ago, an average college student could spend 4 years or more majoring in spreading v.d. and developing alcoholism and still be able to land 100K a year job before graduation day. But now, even the most intelligent, talented and capable college grads are losing jobs and money to laid-off career veterans on the job rebound. Young people who aren't established have been hit hardest by the recession. Older folks who were lucky enough to secure themselves financially prior to the great recession are the real entitlement generation. The new generation of young people are experiencing the overwhelming and daunting task of establishing themselves in the worst economy since the 30's. Cut us a little slack Grandma and Grandpa.
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Cory, 18 Sep 2009 @ 8:00pm

Re: right...
A college promises people NOTHING but that they will get the education necessary to do a certain spectrum of jobs or work under the major they receive. It in no way guarantees you a job, nor is colleges purpose to find you a high-paying job. People who go to college under the pretense that they will become rich are fooling themselves, go for the right reason and you won't have to regret it when you thought that because you can cram schoolwork your instantly fit to run a multi-million dollar corporation or even work a full-time job for that matter. People who truly want work and work hard to find that work and be suitable for that work WILL GET THAT WORK.

I am going to college for an English major, and guess what I have no false hopes that I'm going to earn 40-50k a year because I got an English major. I plan on being a broke writer probably my entire life and I'm willing to gamble that to spend my life doing something I LOVE rather than working for the money. I have no delusions that I should be a rich and famous writer because I went to school for it.
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anonymous, 21 Jan 2010 @ 2:38pm

wrong
It has NOTHING to do with entitlement. If a college, or university makes the claim that YOU WILL BE employable WITH a degree. Or that to have a job you need their degree, and they fail to live up to the bargain than most definately they should be sued. All universities should be sued just like businesses if they fail to meet their obligation at making people more employable like they promise.
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anonymous, 21 Jan 2010 @ 2:39pm

Re:
which makes you wonder why you needed college in the first place?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jan 2010 @ 2:40pm

Re: You can do that?
amen!
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jan 2010 @ 10:13pm

I know how it feels
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jan 2010 @ 10:15pm

I know how it feels
I know what it's like looking for a job in this horrid economy. I've been trying to keep a budget and have blogged about it for months.

http://www.livefrugallyordiebroke.com
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tom, 18 Mar 2010 @ 7:09am

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SturgglingGrad (profile), 27 Mar 2010 @ 11:51am

College
Here is an idea. DO NOT GO TO COLLEGE to get a job. Believe me, you are going to be sorely disappointed. Take a look at all the stories of people like you, that thought they would run out and pick up a quick degree by going into debt. They figured it wouldn't be too hard to get a job. Only to lose it all and be in hot water with their loans. Don't drink the kool-aid the rest of America want's you to drink.

http://www.thegreatcollegehoax.com
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Ashley Thacker, 5 Aug 2010 @ 8:11am

Re: Re:
You think thats funny. Its fucked up. Really? Its been two years since I graduated with a BA and I am stuck with bullshit paying job until I complete my Masters, struggling to pay bills and facing evicition almost every month and not being able to afford groceries. You people think the government will help. HELL NO. No food stamps or welfare unless you get pregnant. What the fuck is wrong with our government and people. Screw everyone who thinks this funny.
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Ricardo Santos, 19 Oct 2010 @ 8:31am

The world might not owe the individual something, but the individual does not anything to the world either. If the world expect us to follow rules, then the world must give something in return, otherwise there is no moral obligation AT ALL of following the rules.

However, most of the time, the world does give us something back for following those rules.
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michael, 18 Jan 2014 @ 3:21am

Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
not even having the specialized degree matters in todays market
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