Entitlement Society: Grad Can't Find Job, Sues Her College For Tuition Back
from the entitlement-culture-gone-wrong dept
We've been talking a lot about "entitlement culture" these days, with much of the focus being on companies or individuals who feel entitled to keep their old business models, even as the market is changing. But entitlement society shows up in other places as well. Jeff Nolan points us to the story of a college graduate who has been unable to find a job since she graduated in April and is now suing her college, Monroe College, for the $70,000 she spent on tuition. Apparently, the fact that we're in one of the worst economic downturns in ages doesn't come into play. Or the fact that what you learn in college (hopefully) lasts a lifetime. To this woman, the fact that she hasn't been able to find a job in four months means she deserves her entire tuition back?
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Filed Under: college, entitlement, monroe college, tuition
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entitlement-culture-gone-wrong dept
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Missed that class
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Re:
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Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
Note that the entire world economy is about $65 trillion, and the United States at about $14 trillion... yeah, that's a lot of entitlements.
http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/14113089?f=most_read
But you're right. When we talk about the Entitlement Society, we should do away with it all, starting with Social Security and also look into creating some legal mechanism that has the ability to revoke corporate charters.
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Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
I thought we'd already killed that horse. I'm fairly certain I won't be seeing any of it, at least.
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Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
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Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/03/opinion/03krugman.html
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Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
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Re: Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
can't fool the rest of us
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Re: Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
Krugman grew up on the "good side" of long island with a silver spoon. Point is, it's a long-running family feud. I've already said too much!
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Re: Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
While amazingly funny, I must admit that neither claim is true... nor, by the way, was that video someone posted the other day, claiming to me of me 15 years ago of me. I am, however, incredibly amused at the creativity of some commenters around here! Keep it up!
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Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
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Re: Re: Why Things Generally Suck... For Everyone
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Huh? Why?
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The article could have been written better and included more facts relevant to the case.
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Re:
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You can do that?
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Re: You can do that?
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I think its kinda cute how pundits and social commentors have been talking about Americas looming "entitlement society" since about 1776 . . .
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Re:
Not really cute. It's not as if there's a magic line that people can go "there! society has crossed it. NOW we're an entitlement culture". It's just that each generation goes through another step, and then points at the progress in their lifetime, or from the previous generation.
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This may not be all that ridiculous...
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What AC #8 said
Monroe may not operate that way, and almost certainly isn't that extreme a case even if it does, but I'd bet it still made more (unwritten?) promises than your more "standard" university does.
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Re: What AC #8 said
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Re: Re: What AC #8 said
Your friend is lucky if he actually owns Kia and doesn't have a jumbo 400K mortgage on a house which he can sell for only 250K today...
The fresh CS and EE grads are screwed BIG time....
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Re: Re: Re: What AC #8 said
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Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
Just roll with it. If you have to make ends meet with dead-end minimum-wage work for 6 months before you have the experience to get something better than so be it. You can't blame the school for going for that degree in "Art History" that nobody is actively hiring for.
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Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
Or, she is of below-average intelligence and/or has been taught that she deserves something for which the rest of us have to work. As the great prophet said about 'potential,' "Not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up."
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Re: Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
It's hard to tell if you're making fun or her or the responses, but I haven't seen any bleeding heart responses that seem to mesh with what you're saying. Generally speaking, if you pay tuition and earn a degree then you have gotten everything that you paid for and would have no basis to sue. You obviously aren't entitled to a job. I think that's mostly obvious, and it's also the basis for the negative reaction to this suit.
That being said, there are a number of colleges, especially technical schools (some of which are accredited), that do promise a great deal of job placement or employment assistance. I've heard cases where local "enrollment councilors" at the schools have literally guaranteed potential students that they will be able to find work after graduation through their placement services. I know of at least one case where the school had to actually hire a couple of students to help maintain their systems because the promises fell short.
Now most reasonable people would hear the claim of a "guaranteed job upon graduation" and run the other way, recognizing this as a pure marketing tactic with little to no bearing on reality. But I have no doubt that some people would be taken in by such a claim, and literally expect the school to make good on it. I don't know if that is what happened in this case, but if a school (or any business) makes a guarantee and then fails to make good on it, shouldn't they be held responsible? If you went to such a school based on their guarantee, then found yourself at graduation unable to find work or pay your bills, AND with another $70,000 in debt on top of that, wouldn't you want something done about it?
Granted, in the case that I mentioned people shouldn't be so stupid as to believe that a school can guarantee them employment upon graduation. But on the other hand, a school shouldn't be able to make false or exaggerated claims about their services either. Most schools simply guarantee that if you graduate you'll get a degree, and that's the end of it.
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Re: Re: Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
Exactly the point I was trying to make (and failing at). I was a fool, I fell for the marketing, and I'm paying for it. I'm not suing anyone because I don't have the job I was guaranteed. And even if I was going to sue someone, I wouldn't expect to get my entire tuition back. It did have a great deal of value for me. Just not as much as was promised. If I were to sue someone, it would only be to stop the schools from being able to make guarantees that they can't deliver on.
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Re: Only 4 months of looking? Is she kidding?
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Sigh
"The college prides itself on the excellent career-development support that we provide to each of our students, and this case does not deserve further consideration."
How about pointing out that any university promises it's students nothing more than an education, and is by no means obligated to secure employment for students.
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Education insurance
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Count me in...
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sigh
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Individuals owe society not the other way around.
To many people think the world owes them something. They don't get it. It is the individual that owes the world (society)something. This is the problem with our entitlement system, it trains people to think the world owes them things rather than the way it really is.
People owe themselves and society to work hard and prosper for their own good and the good of all (society).
This include acts of charity,for it is better to give than to receive. In giving the giver receives, he/she receives a sense of good, of knowing that your good deed has helped another less fortunate than you. It takes the mind off of self and puts it on others. When you think of other first, your problems seem to become less important. You become happier and more content. Well, Nuf said.
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Re: Individuals owe society not the other way around.
Pure leeches in society rarely prosper and don't do that well and this entitlement stuff is just another face. They want everything and don't want anyone to have anything else.
Taking your statements to the extreme... shooting out gumdrops and rainbows everywhere will probably make you a far better person and a good number of people will always be there to have your back in tough times but it's going to unlikely you are going to achieve the rich and crazy life style of corporate CEOs.
It's all about playing the "game" where you try to take more than what you receive. The problem with "entitlement" is they seem to want to take take take take from society without so much as putting a dime in or helping an old lady cross the street.
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Re: Individuals owe society not the other way around.
Of course, society doesn't owe me anything, either. My parents owe me 18 years of care because of their decisions/actions that brought me into this life ... but that's about it, and my mom has paid that & more.
But me owing society anything? Naw, because I had no say in the society I was born in to.
I have a personal obligation to see to the betterment of myself and the world & people around me that I love & support. But I don't owe anything, and it's an obligation I have placed on myself because I see value in my personal life from increasing the value others get from their lives.
Are you viewing this as an extension of "original sin"? You have to apologize for & work off being born in the first place? Or, do you view just being born into a society as a form of contractual agreement between a 0-minute-old baby & the place they happened to come out of the womb at?
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Rant for teh unemployed bloggarz out thar
Hey, Adrian, yay to you for getting off your ass and finding a job! Now, if only she could do the same instead of being a leech on society and draining the unemployment trust for 4 months (which, who knows, maybe went to file her lawsuit and pay her attorney.)
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Re: Rant for teh unemployed bloggarz out thar
If she got unemployment benefits or $$$, as taxpayers, we should ask for it back.
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Re:
Seriously, she will have a much harder time finding a job, and she had better change her name/get married before she tries to get a master's degree! Then again, her transcripts will probably have a note (is that legal?) about her lawsuit.
Hope she sued for enough money for a shovel, too!
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Re: Re:
They'll sell you BS degree, MS degree, Phd degree, if there is enough money
Probably just ask you sign some "no lawsuit" paper, that;s all
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Would a share holder put up with not getting a return on their investment? Yet you expect a person who just chucked four years of their life, sanity, and money, they should get the big mac experience? We don't know how hard it was for this person to get into college, maybe her mother mortgaged the house, etc... Colleges have been treating people like this for decades as the job pool is getting smaller and smaller from more and more graduates appearing. Not to mention the fact the jobs are often evolving as the person is learning an older business model.
I've never understood why people who've done the work on good faith aren't being rewarded for their efforts. If you do this to a person, you can expect a lot of contempt, repress anger and distrust. It used to be you could use the analogy of a carrot on a stick, but now things seem more comparable to a mouse trap on a stick.
The system of jammed.
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Re: right...
I am going to college for an English major, and guess what I have no false hopes that I'm going to earn 40-50k a year because I got an English major. I plan on being a broke writer probably my entire life and I'm willing to gamble that to spend my life doing something I LOVE rather than working for the money. I have no delusions that I should be a rich and famous writer because I went to school for it.
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Notice......
I'd hope she loses the lawsuit. I'd almost say the college should sue-back, but likely she's so broke it's not worth the effort.
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Give her a chance
To me, this particular case isn't necessarily about entitlement culture. I think it's about the business agreement many people make with their chosen university. Yes, what you learn in college will be with you for your entire life, but most people don't go in for such philosophical reasons. They go in to get a good job.
And universities advertise the hell out of that. Why go to Harvard? Why go to Brown? I've gone to both the Community College of Rhode Island and Brown. University of Rhode Island and Rhode Island college. My best experiences? The community college.
You pay a premium for the connections the prestigious university gives you. Those universities use those connections as selling points to explain their comical tuition fees. If they fail at giving you value, they are not holding up their end of the "contract."
So she may truly be a self-entitled idiot, but it's not necessary that she is.
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Re: Give her a chance
- transcript
- resume
- list of jobs she has applied
- offers were made (if any)
Also, let's find out how many of her fellow graduates have had a similar experience. Did any of her fellow graduates with the same degree and GPA get a job or has her entire graduating class ended up in the unemployment line?
There is a perception among many college graduates that a degree and decent grades automatically means a good job and a decent salary. It doesn't. Period. A degree simply demonstrates the individual's ability to learn the material and complete the program. It gives you an advantage when applying to jobs in your field of study over those applicants who lack credentials. That it. A degree is a single line item on your resume. The rest is up to you.
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Re: Re: Give her a chance
If 95% of college grads are out of work after 6 months then such college should be dismantled
Flipping burgers does not qualify as professional work
We are talking potential class-action lawsuits here from the dusgruntled Class of 2009 (and a good kick in Mikey's butt)
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Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
Normally you are pretty funny, but this time you are just plain wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
With Stanford and berkley grads flipping burgers employers just laugh at those poor sobs with BS from Monroe college
The party is over, the gravy train is long gone
Obtainiong IT degree from the likes of Monroe college does not make any sense
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Re: Re: Give her a chance
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Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
Remember, your shitty resume is just one of 800 sitting on HR desk (hard drive)
What do you put on it to make it stand out ?
A picture of your naked ass ?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Give her a chance
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Mikey, Mikey, where is your shame ?
How bout Berkley or Stanford grads flipping burgers for 10$ an hour and doing unpaid work for equity in some shitty startup in SV ?
Never seen one ?
Mikey is a paid shill for large tech multinationals
AS such he will eventually get what he deserves - a good kick in the butt from some disgruntled unemployed IT worker
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Re: Mikey, Mikey, where is your shame ?
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Why shouldn't the university have to make good on their claims? If she, in good faith, gave this school tens of thousands of dollars based on a promise by the school that they will offer her significant career placement when she gets out, why should she not expect it? There are not enough details as to the promises made by the school and the treatment they gave her, but it is certainly par for the course for schools to make those sorts of false promises -- as I said before I graduated from a school that promised me up and down that they would use all their connections out there to help me find a job and in the end offered me little that I could not find on monster.com. I can't see how this can be construed as anything other than blatantly false advertising, and if this is the case then she certainly does have a lawsuit and I hope she wins and teaches these schools that they have to live up to their promises.
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@ Angry Dude
"I Partied With Angry Dude"
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So Entitlement Societies are bad???
So I guess as long as it furthers one's agenda it's ok to be entitled...
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Re: So Entitlement Societies are bad???
Michial, I'm not sure I understand you. When have I ever said anyone was entitled to someone else's creative works for free? I have not.
You seem to be projecting what you dislike on me.
But I would suggest actually reading what I write. I've discussed this directly with you in the past. You lying about what I say doesn't make you any more believable. It just makes you less credible.
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princess
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Word.
Self-determined schmelf-determined.
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Honey. Shut up and do what I did.
But that was not the problem. I was the problem. I was applying for Account Manager positions. No one hires a college grad for management or money controlling positions.
She needs to get a clue. Do what I did.
Work you but off at three jobs. While trying to get the Gov't to lend a healthy white American, Small Busines Admin (SBA) money, so you can start a company. Oh wait, tried that, that doesn't work either.
Just beg your father's friends to give you a help desk job and work your way to owning a company with 90 employees doing security consulting for businesses.
Yep, that is what I did. Now I get to sit here on TechDirt all day while those talented individuals help me pay for my 60 foot boat and my daughters college so she doesn't have debt.
Thanks Aquinas College (Grand Rapids, Michigan).
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Re: Honey. Shut up and do what I did.
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Re: Honey. Shut up and do what I did.
Punky
perhaps you should know that the days of advancing from Help Desk up the corporate ladder are long over
YOu come to Help desk - you stay in Help Desk
(unless you dad is CEO's friend and drinking buddy)
So STFU please
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I can relate.
When I was just signing up for college, I was told that my degree would basically guarantee me a $60,000/yr starting salary. Well, it didn't.
I was able to find a job, but even today, my salary isn't that great. I'd like to see a proportional refund on my tuition. Or at least a reduction in the interest, which I'm still paying.
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College tuition back
Think before you speak.
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http://www.theonion.com/content/video/more_american_workers_outsourcing
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Society of Victims
We live in a victim's society with no sense of shame. No matter what negative thing happens, it is always someone else's fault. It's my gender, my sexual preference, my race, my religion, my choice of pets, my musical taste... anything but my fault. It could never be that I have a bad attitude, no true talent, no true work skills, no true people skills, no ability to dress myself for the job, no ability to speak proper English... oh no, it can't be me. It must be you, your fault, your prejudice, your stereotyping and profiling. **News Flash** - it's just you.
Companies are in business to make money. As much as I despise corporations and profit motive culture (which is at fault for our current economic crisis, most of our military conflicts, and many of our social woes), they are focused on making money, which includes putting the right person in the right job. They don't care about any of the aforementioned prejudices or stereotypes that you have been told to believe - they hire the person that can make them successful. That doesn't have to be you, and most assuredly won't be you if you can't demonstrate the ability to be the right person - and not just on paper. Don't let your arrogance get in the way of your success - you have to work hard and earn your way. This woman is sueing because she thinks she deserves more than she is worth, and she errantly believes it must be someone else's fault.
btw - Monroe College is accredited by the Commission on Higher Education of the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools. Not a diploma mill.
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Re: Society of Victims
I repeate once more for retards like you - in the present environment obtaining IT degree fro mthe likes of Monroe collge is just laughable
She should have known better...
it's brutal out there
And NO ,for many decent qualified and experienced IT folks it's not them - it;s korporate america's greed
SO just STFU
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Sue 'em all
College is the biggest scam going - makes Madoff look like a piker.
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Pretty much anyone who went to a semi-reputable school was promised job-search ASSISTANCE, unfortunately, people have this idea that that means the school will FIND them a job. Nobody is going to find you work but yourself.
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Re:
Afraid not, my little clueless techdirt reader
At least not in tech
IT and tech in general are following textile industry path.... offshore and never coming back.. at least not until the living standards here in US equal those in India or China for most of the population
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Re: Re:
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SBDC
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Liberal Arts
If you want the knowledge of a BA read the Harvard shelf of books. What's cool is that you can get them from the Gutenberg project for free.
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Just to reiterate
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Please
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When are you guaranteed a job?
Plus, no school will guarantee that you get a job. That's up to you, not the school.
The article never mentions what sort of degree she got, other than it's a "business" school. Not all business degrees are the same; not to mention business grads are a dime a dozen. It's a slightly better degree for jobs than, say, art major but unless you have something to back it up I doubt prospects are great.
How about start your own business? Small business loans are relatively easy to get from the fed, especially now.
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For Once, Angry Dude is Right-- At Least in Part.
http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/schoolsandprograms/coursecatalogs/courseofferings /IT09-10
http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/schoolsandprograms/informationtechnology/bbadegreei ninformationtechnology/degreerequirements
http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/schoolsandprograms /informationtechnology/bbadegreeininformationtechnology
http://www.monroecollege.edu/academics/scho olsandprograms/otheracademicofferings/liberalarts/mathematics
What they come down to is a marginal program, with very little coursework above the high-school level, for marginal students, with very little mathematical capacity. I've seen this kind of thing before. They have these Cisco-certificate-type courses, courses on how to take a computer apart and put it back together again, etc. Of course, the main thing you need for that kind of thing is enough old computers that you can play with them, and not be uncontrollably concerned if you bust one.
Of course, there is a possible fraud issue. It's like what truck driving schools used to be like. They were famous for gaming the student loan system. They would string students along for as long as possible, making them take mickey-mouse courses, before giving them a chance to drive an 18-wheeler.
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Say what?
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She has a 2.7 GPA??!?!?!?!
from wikipedia:
In August 2009, Trina Thompson, an April 2009 graduate in Information Technology, who was still without a job, sued Monroe College for failure to provide adequate job-placement assistance. [6] Her opinion in the claim is that with her 2.7 GPA and good attendance record, most employers would be interested in giving her a job. The case has received international publicity, including mention by BBC News. Ms. Thompson seeks $70,000 for reimbursement of her tuition. A College spokesperson said, "this case does not deserve further consideration". As of early August 2009, the lawsuit filed in Bronx Superior Court(US) had not yet been resolved.
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The punch-line
The mantra of modern American culture is, "Some institution has pooped in my pants, I am going to sue it for making such a mess." The institution should sue her for not using the career center and other free resources to help grads get a job.
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amazing...
found here:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/03/thompson.pdf
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Re: amazing...
But the issues are big:
All IT programs offered by third-rate US "colleges" like Monroe should be shut down immediately as educational scams
Her "degree" is just laughable
Good accredited US universities should warn their prospective students about uncertain career prospects BEFORE taking any money from them
They should collect and publish statistics about the whereabouts of their graduates, not omitting anybody
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hmm..
Can't say I blame her.
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*shakes head*
Also, I think she's confusing the fact that employers prefer a 4.0 student with the college "favoring" them.
Other news reports mention that she has a measly 2.7 in a BA business. Basically, qualifications to be secretary. I want to see what kind of jobs she's applying to.
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Well I can guarentee one thing...
If I was a hiring manager, she certainly wouldn't be on my list after suing for $70k. They should revoke her degree if that's the case.
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wrong
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I know how it feels
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I know how it feels
http://www.livefrugallyordiebroke.com
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College
http://www.thegreatcollegehoax.com
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However, most of the time, the world does give us something back for following those rules.
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