BPI Unhappy With Techdirt, Seeks To Correct The Record... But Still Gets It Wrong
from the sorry,-that's-just-not-accurate dept
So, we recently wrote about how Geoff Taylor, head of BPI (the UK's equivalent of the RIAA) seemed to be going after British Telecom (BT) with a variety of highly questionable claims about how BT had some sort of obligation to stop file sharing on its network, and that BT was using unauthorized file sharing to prop up its own business model. Both claims are flat out ridiculous, but BPI apparently was quite upset with us pointing that out. Of course, rather than actually respond in the comments where we might have a conversation about it, they've been sending us a series of emails, taking issue with our statements and laying out their claims in more detail. In the interest of an open debate, I'll post BPI's comments here, with my responses mixed in (but of course):It's unfortunate that in a piece which wrongly charges BPI with making things up, you have misrepresented what our Chief Executive said. He did not say that "BT broke the law in not stopping file sharing", as you assert.Hmm. Let's look at what he did say: "If you operate a commercial service and know it is being used to break the law, taking steps to ensure it is used legally is a cost of doing business." Perhaps there's a way to interpret that, which doesn't imply that BT is breaking the law in not stopping illegal activity, but it seems like that is the rather clear implication of his statement. But, BPI goes on to say they actually just meant BT has a "social responsibility" to stop the illegal activity. Ah.
BT fosters a reputation as a socially responsible company. BPI has questioned whether it's appropriate for such a company to do nothing about 100,000 instances "a small sample" of the illegal behaviour that BT knows is occurring on its network. BT knows about this activity because BPI provides detailed weekly notifications enabling BT to verify each and every infringement. BPI's notifications are based upon robust copyright infringement detection techniques which have been accepted by the UK High Court in over 150 cases.I see. Would that be the same "robust copyright infringement detection system" that a recent study in the UK found was accusing elderly couples of downloading gay porn, along with a significant number of other "false positives"? Furthermore, there's quite a difference between knowing that there is illegal activity on the network and being able to stop it. As we noted in one of our original posts, in a land with due process (the UK has that, right?), people aren't guilty upon accusation. It appears that BPI has leapfrogged beyond even the draconian "three strikes" proposals and is looking for something of a "one strike."
But this is a serious question for BPI: really, what would you have BT do? You are informing them of activity you claim is infringing, but BT has no way of verifying that is a fact. Secondly, by the time you've informed BT, the activity is over. So what is BT to do at that point? Finally, how is BT to determine what ongoing actions are actually legitimate? Plenty of smart content creators choose to give away their works on purpose. Plenty of the record labels represented by BPI, even, have long histories of sending out mp3s themselves for promotional purposes. BT has no way of knowing which content is legit and which is not. Pretending that BT can wave its magic wand and suddenly be all-knowing is just silly.
Oh yeah, as for the claim that BT "fosters a reputation as a socially responsible company," I would think that such would include not violating the civil liberties of its customers by spying on what they do online in an effort to prop up someone's obsolete business model. Wouldn't you?
We understand that BT employs very sophisticated traffic and network analysis technologies that allows it to see the proportion of network traffic that is P2P. We have never said that all P2P traffic is illegal, because not all of it is. But the weekly notifications we send to BT relate solely to music files which we know are being shared illegally.Again, BPI assumes that BT can magically tell which content is infringing and which is not. Just recently, we pointed out that EMI -- in the UK -- was happily distributing infringing mixtapes from Lily Allen off of an EMI owned website. If someone is downloading such content, should BT stop them? How could it possibly know which content in real time is authorized and which is not? And, more importantly, why should that be BT's responsibility? Just because the folks at the labels that make up BPI haven't been able to adapt? If BPI believes that individuals are breaking the law, why is it not going after those individuals? Obviously, because it knows that it would be a public relations nightmare. But just because BPI has a PR issue, it doesn't mean that BT should have to spend a ton of money trying to fix BPI members' broken business models.
Since 2003, annual UK broadband revenues have increased from £0.6 billion to £2.7 billion (2008). Recorded music revenues have fallen every year in the same period, principally due to illegal filesharing. It is therefore not difficult to see that the growth of BT's consumer broadband business has been assisted by the increase in illegal filesharing.Wow. I mean... wow. Talk about a logical somersault. Seriously? First off, just because one industry's revenue falls and another's grows, it does not mean the two are causal. I mean, this is really, really basic stuff. Correlation, causation, blah blah blah. But, even then, the link is so tenuous as to be laughable. First, the claim that recorded music revenue is falling. Well... be careful. As we've been pointing out, PRS in the UK has admitted that the music industry is actually growing, not shrinking. Apparently, the folks at BPI don't read the PRS economic reports. If they did, they'd know that the study found that the overall industry is growing, with a big shift in money going from recorded music to live music.
BPI, you're blaming the wrong culprit! It ain't the ISPs, it's the live venues! And those bands playing live shows! Why aren't you demanding that they cut it out! After all, wouldn't it be the "socially responsible" thing for them to stop gigging so that people would go back to buying CDs?
And, of course, the whole claim that the decline in recorded music sales is "principally due to illegal filesharing" is also flat out, ridiculously, laughably wrong. Study after study has shown that file sharers tend to buy more. Isn't it a lot more likely that the decline in recorded music revenues is due to a shift in the marketplace due to technology? That technology has taken away the monopoly on distribution that BPI members used to have. Whenever you lose a monopoly on distribution, it's to be expected that you lose monopoly rents and your revenue goes down. That's Econ 101 (or maybe 201, if we're talking monopoly rents... depends on your econ prof).
Besides, we spend a lot of time here working with and talking to and about musicians who have embraced file sharing, and put in place smart business models to take advantage of it. And, you know what? They're doing better than they did in the past. The problem isn't "illegal filesharing." It's bad and obsolete business models. Those who are embracing file sharing in combination with a good business model are doing better than in the past. That rules out "file sharing" as the problem, and suggests the real problem is BPI's resistance to smarter business models.
Other ISPs are recognising that it is not sustainable in the long-term for a high percentage of ISPs revenues to be based on the transmission of illegal data, and that in future they need to share in revenues from providing high quality entertainment services for their customersThis is again ridiculous. ISP revenues are not "based on the transmission of illegal data." ISP revenues are based on the fact that pretty much everyone needs an internet connection these days just to function. It's how people communicate, you know? Claiming that BT is making any more revenue because people file share is laughable. People are using the internet because it's useful for all sorts of things. Hell, we keep hearing ISPs saying that they need to break net neutrality because all this file sharing is filling up their network and costing them too much in network upgrades. How can they be making so much money off of file sharing if it's costing them so much?
Once again, this is typical entertainment industry drivel. They totally overestimate how much their own stuff is "worth" to the wider ecosystem, and then demand that everyone just pay up. Except... that's not the way the world works. The world works by having smart people with smart business models figuring out ways to make people want to give you money, not by sitting back and demanding others just hand over money.
So, thanks for the emails, BPI, but at least work on making your statements a little more believable next time. And, as always, our comments are wide open for you to reply to and interact directly with people here.
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Filed Under: economics, file sharing, isps, music, record labels, uk
Companies: bpi, bt
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Big rant, in the end, trying very hard to hide the simple fact: you reported something that wasn't the truth, just your opinion, and tried to pass it off as truth.
Keep up the good work Mike.
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That's not the way to get hired. Look up their corporate ladder, yup not an inkling of talent (or common sense, but I digress). You must remember to promote yourself by giving out your resume as a web address that requires a subscription to view and includes fluffed statistics of your accomplishments. Also, have one of your relatives draft a report detailing how any industry you have participated in has increased dramatically due to the decreasing sheep stocks in Indonesia (what? I can't make bad correlations too?). Then, they might just blow the dust off their tome of Recording Executive Rites of Initiation, conjure up the Ghost of Business Past and invite you into their coven. Either way, it could be fun.
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If Mike's wrong, please tell us exactly what he said that is wrong.
I'm not surprised you didn't leave your name on your post. Coward.
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Yeah, the thing is with something as ineffable as "intellectual property," opinion is all you have to go on. He's got his, you've got yours, and I've got mine (and you'd embrace his if you saw mine.) So what?
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Name Please
While this is certainly your right to remain anonymous (at least for now), it's also our right to put your comments down to an undisclosed bias.
I suggest that next time you want to make a point about what Mike is doing, you first consider that using your Name might actually give more cause to your believability.
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Re: Name Please
Bob, your points are well articulated, but I ain't giving up the Helmet, mostly because everytime I look at the picture icon I have to try very hard not to burst out laughing....
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Re: Re: Name Please
Or:
DH > AC
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Re: Re: Re: Name Please
At the very least it allows all others to see all of your thoughts. It allows them to get a better idea of how you feel about these topics and such.
Imagine if everybody was an AC!
You would never know who was saying what and could never get an idea of who you are arguing with.
Any moniker we use is definitely far superior to AC.
And besides, the guy listed his name as Bob Bunderfeld.
I would consider that just as much a screen name as Dark Helmet. We have absolutely no way to verify that he is who he says he is. No clue what he does for a living.
It is roughly equivalent to Dark Helmet it my eyes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Name Please
You know, Killer...that hurts, it really does. I put hours and HOURS of thought into just what would be the funniest moniker and image icon to post under, and you equate my choice to Bob Bunderfeld? What in the hell is a Bob Bunderfeld.
It sounds like a guy named Bob who then stumbled and fell, but on German soil.
Hanz: Guten Tag! Vat da hell happened to Bob? He's lying on zee ground!
Franz: Bob Bunderfeld on his ass onto zee floor...
Hanz: Wunderbar!
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Hey at least you said SOMETHING I can agree with. I give you a point for that.
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This says it all...
They are simply trying to position themselves to receive a handout from a company that is actually making money by working and innovating rather than sitting around waiting for checks to come in simply because they allegedly "Work for Artists"
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Re: This says it all...
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I was commenting on the particular quote, do get paid by the post? RIAA or is actually BPI, PRS maybe?
Or have you formed a group to "Protect the interests of those who claim to protect the interests of content creators?
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Re: Re: This says it all...
Could you provide references to back up that claim, please? Links or even complete sentences might suffice.
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Re: Re: This says it all...
Arguable. More likely Taylor purposefully made an ambiguous statement that he knew would be interpreted a certain way but allowed him to fall back on the "Oh no, you just didn't understand what I MEANT!" argument. It's a common way of phrasing things when you're in the public eye, so that you can never have your feet held to the fire.
That said, Mike's interpretation was his an interpretation. The problem is that Taylor's staement REQUIRES interpretation to figure out what the hell he's trying to say. Let's examine:
"If you operate a commercial service and know it is being used to break the law, taking steps to ensure it is used legally is a cost of doing business." - Geoff Taylor
Okay, the immediate question that arises is: as opposed to what alternative. If ating to curtail what they are calling piracy is the "cost of doing business" and they don't pay that cost, what then? Typically in modern business, the answer to that question is either you pay a penalty, suffer criminal consequences, or go out of business.
For instance, providing a clean and non-dangerous product is the cost of doing business for bottled water companies (which I don't think they do, but that's for another time). If they bottle water laden with ecoli (does that even make sense?), and they haven't paid the cost of doing business, what do you think is going to happen?
So to me, the interpretation M&M put forth rings true, but it would be nice if these corporae jackasses would just speak clearly the first time.
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Re: Re: Re: This says it all...
The fact is, there are competing rights at issue in this debate, and BT has chosen to pay the (lowest) cost to support one of those rights (the right of its customers to be free of intrusion). If Taylor _really_ meant what he suggests, that BT made the wrong moral choice, then his statement was vacuous. It was merely a statement of his ill-informed opinion.
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Re: Re: Re: This says it all...
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err"
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Well, there is a very simple way to test if water is pure. You use an ANALOG ohm meter (digital ones don't really work for some reason or it's too costly to actually get one that is helpful). Pure water does not conduct electricity. The tap water here makes the ohm water jump a LOT, almost half way, but the pure water bought from the stores barley moves the needle at all. That's how I know it's pretty much pure.
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Fluoride is a Halogen, it has seven valence electrons.
So it's electronegative, it wants to take electrons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride
So it should try to take electrons and form ions (though in small amounts), so my guess (without actually testing it) is that it does conduct electricity in water. Maybe someone around here can tell. I tried to google if halogens conduct electricity in water.
Oh, and Ohm Meters can be found at many stores that sell electronics. What you're looking for is a multi meter, they usually have ohm meter options.
Here is some info about them
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_2/2.html
Here are some
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&source=hp&q=analog+ohm+meter&um=1&ie=UT F-8&ei=VkPHSqXUIIyasgP4h7CiBQ&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=image&resnum=4
Also, the ohm ranges may matter as well, being that it requires a sensitive touch to detect junk in your water. My analog Ohm meter only detects up to 2K ohms though. The more ohms the more resistance. Fewer Ohms = more conductance (I know it seems backwards. You can also blame Ben Franklin for the fact that negative = more electrons and positive = fewer electrons, which also seems backwards).
They also have water testers though I don't have one so I don't know how well they work.
http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&num=100&newwindow=1&q=electronic+water+tes ter&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=-EPHSqfCFJD4sQOG_6SiBQ&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct= image&resnum=5
(though you can probably get one cheaper at E - bay)
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=digital+water+tester&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=
Y ou can also search digital water tester or PPM water tester (PPM stands for parts per million).
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"BT knows"
Not only is it more costly to monitor people in such a way, but it's quite more dangerous. There are europe-wide and worldwide agreements not to inspect a normal consumers connection if there isn't a security/national risk at large. If I recall correctly it's in the realm of being considered either an act of war or violation of treaty to dig down into what is being transmitted, mostly because monitor of that fashion can actually give you details of the exact things being transmitted, not just "they're kazaa filesharing".
So why would BT want to a: take that liability, or b: even care? They're perfectly happy being a dumb pipe as that = subscribers/money/cashflow.
Jeez BPI, leave BT the hell alone.
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Mike summary: "BT broke the law in not stopping file sharing"
Actually said: "If you operate a commercial service and know it is being used to break the law, taking steps to ensure it is used legally is a cost of doing business."
C'mon now. There's no "Mike made stuff up".
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When will these people figure it out?
Their business model is dead. What's so hard about adapting to new technology with a business model update? It's just plain common sense, and they've had TEN YEARS.
I continue my boycott of RIAA labels. Wake up, recording industry execs. You're all colossal failures.
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Re: When will these people figure it out?
in hollywood circles per family I have that are entrenched deep in media (mpaa/riaa/etc), it's easier money using this method than the hard work to make the change, so they don't want to do it. Not in the way you think, but that by making filesharing "evil" everyone does it and drives more growth. You know, like when your parents tell you XYZ thing is bad and you do it for that specific reason.
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Re: Re: When will these people figure it out?
Man, I love a sound conspiracy theory, but I don't know about that one....
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Re: Re: Re: When will these people figure it out?
not everything are attempts to get more filesharing, they are attempts to garner more business without having to do it through alternative channels which are well known.
The 3 strikes stuff is an attempt to stuff the genie back in the bottle, we all know how stupid that is.
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Re: When will these people figure it out?
Your point is sound, but its been more like twenty years. Crap, Mattel was taking down B&D Barbie images in what? 1992?
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I Believe it has Started
Looks like you finally got their attention.
Your constant drumbeat of "business model", "business model", "business model", year after year after year appears to have finally been noticed by the people who actually need to hear it.
You've mentioned in the past that you get your share of cease-and-desist letters, but I think this might be the first crack in the RI/MP/AA BPI armor if they actually start responding to you on your fairly solid points and allow themselves to be pulled into a discussion based on facts.
Congratulations.
Or, they can pull a Lily Allen, I guess, and just pretend like they never heard of you.
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Re: I Believe it has Started
The people who need to hear it have done so. What you're seeing is a rearguard retreat from the institutional operators. Don't worry, they've got golden parachutes. They'll be fine.
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Re: I Believe it has Started
"First they laugh at you, then they ignore you, then they fight with you, then you win."
Welcome to stage three Mike.
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"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. "
But I agree, your version make more logical sense.
One less thing I can trust now in life: The Internet.
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Actually - I counter that IS the way the world works... as screwed up as it is >
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There doesn't have to be a *Good* Reason to Buy (nobody really needs a tshirt with a slogan on it), but there does have to be reason, and the consumer has to agree.
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And when it does, it is hugely controversial, like the bailouts
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Some people are driving drunk, so we should shut down all the streets
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Re: Some people are driving drunk, so we should shut down all the streets
By BPI's super-valid logic, you or I even being aware of such a thing and not stopping it means we're condoning it.
I know serial killers exist, but because I choose not to become a vigilante and try to stop them same as the police, I'm condoning it. Its a pretty clear line in responsibility!
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Re: Re: Some people are driving drunk, so we should shut down all the streets
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I was going to use the same analogy...
Hey BPI (and RIAA/MPAA for that matter) UR DUING IT WRONG.
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Why do they even try?
The more the IP industry tries to explain their position, the more I dislike them. All they do is alienate people. Do they believe that they are on the right track with their actions? Can they really be so stupid or is it just a desperate fight for existence in a world where technology has made them obsolete? Probably both.
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Re: Why do they even try?
Things like guns, cars and phones to name a few. Intellectual property industry must think that they are so special.
Guns are a bad analogy there. To be completely honest, gun manufacturers have had many lawsuits against them because the weapon they manufactured was used in a crime. While I cannot find the news articles dating back to the lawsuits, I did find this law, Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which states:
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Strange...
According to Wadsworth, the future business model of this industry might not be based on transactional music sales for much longer. In the space of a year, the proportion of income derived from other sources – live gigs, merchandising, advertising, digital licensing, broadcast – has grown from £121.6m (11.4% of total revenues in 2007) to £195m (18% of the total in 2008).
"The industry is moving from a transaction based business to a usage and licensing business," says Wadsworth.
Taken from here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/online/the-music-industrys-future-may-not-depend-on-charging -for-songs-1794161.html
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Mike IS lying
1) Mike said that Taylor was "suggesting that BT broke the law in not stopping file sharing: ".
2) And Mike was called on that, and I quote, "He did not say that "BT broke the law in not stopping file sharing", as you assert. "
Obviously saying that someone "suggested" something is against the law is the same as asserting they claimed something is against the law.
Who can argue with that? Obviously Mike misstated what..., er..., I mean.....
Hmmmm....
Never mind. It is clearly BMI misstated Mike... Mike only said Taylor's statements *suggested* something. A far cry from *asserting* Taylor *said* something.
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Re: Mike IS lying
"If you operate a commercial service and know it is being used to break the law, taking steps to ensure it is used legally is a cost of doing business."
Fuck you, police your own shit. Or be prepared to police mine. (my interjection.)
2) And Mike was called on that, and I quote, "He did not say that "BT broke the law in not stopping file sharing", as you assert. "
What the fuck does that even mean? Y'know what? Go figure how many lawyers can dance on the head of a pin, and we'll just keep going with this technology and shit.
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Re: Re: Mike IS lying
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Re: Re: Re: Mike IS lying
Nice catch. Mike might have made an interpretation of the Taylor insinuation, but the BPA wants to paint itself the victim, so they re-work Mike's words.
I love the BPA and RIAA's hubris. They go to ISPs with a naughty list, and ask for confidential info or corrective action from the ISP. If the police or FBI went to the ISPs with the same request, they should be told to "F off or come back with a warrant." The recording industry goons are neither law enforcement officials, nor do they bring a warrant. So they should take their list of IP addresses, and use their 'talent' to write a sad song about it.
Church, Church, Church.
I had you at +18 on my scoresheet. And Tucker (although I don't know him) at -18. I just take a point off him ever tim e you go FTW. Why do you hate him so?
I'll leave you at +18, but I'm giving Tucker +2 because I bet he caught the sarcasm. F@# - my scoresheet is getting complicated.
Keep up the [mostly] good work.
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Re: Re: Re: Mike IS lying
Gorram it! This thing is a menace. I'm going to sue the manufacturer!
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Media Shift
In the past, medium shifts (Vinyl -> Tape -> CD's) have typically meant that people have paid over and over for the same content - with a huge mark-up for the labels. Now the current mainstream media - MP3 - allows CD's to be easily converted with no extra cost to the consumer.
Labels: You've not got it bad now, you just had it too good for too long. Illegally so, as the CD price fixing cases have illustrated.
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I don't understand
Do these organizations NOT understand that the Police are there to enforce the Laws and arrest those that break those laws. ISP's, at least the last time I checked, aren't sworn to uphole these laws.
I suppose BPI and RIAA don't understand the basics of Law and Law Enforcement. Perhaps that's the reason why they haven't been able to actually PROVE anyone is breaking the law; which is probably why they are trying to get ISP's to do something, since they have no real proof that any laws are being broken.
Maybe the BPI and RIAA should go back to Grade School and take a refresher course on how laws and the enforcement of those laws work.
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Or that they would have to come face-to-face with the fact that the average person dislikes them and does not agree that they have a moral high ground?
Or simply that they might face the wrath of Dark Helmet?
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i mean, i know I'd be scared.
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Ha ha ha, I read this half an hour ago and I'm still laughing.
I'm done with the industry, all the money I spend on music from now on will be spent on artists working outside the industry. If I desperately want a major label cd I'll buy it second hand so no money gets back to these jokers. Unfortunately this means no money gets back to the artist either which is not what I want but it gets to the point when complaining isn't enough and you have to do something, no matter how small.
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Welcome
Quite the opposite -- I have learned of, purchased, and enjoyed higher quality music in greater variety than I ever would have discovered if I didn't start boycotting RIAA member labels. Basically, I've started seeking out music rather than letting the "industry" suggest it to me. It's made a tremendous difference.
I know many people who experienced the same effect, although nobody believes this happens until they do it.
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BPI Unhappy With Techdirt, Seeks To Correct The Record... But Still Gets It Wrong
I mean garbage is what I hear on 80% of the Radio Stations and then you got your religious music disguised as hard rock. The only thing hard about it is a bad boys dream.
Really they need to produce something we want to listen to.
Not rehashes of all the old stuff.
This battle is a joke and the last gasps of a dying industry that has been ripping off artists as long as I can remember.
It's called Instant Karma.
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I'm waiting for:
low
racial
in
(cuts an impressive)
profile
and such...
And I think there is room for a Dark Mall to fill in when Dark Helmet can't get it done. I think you can picture the avatar, yes?
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Some dude's profile is "low"
Beside their avatar for each comment they post, it will show:
low (profile)
BTW, new idea for handle: "Keep a low"
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I am totally missing how this is interpreted as " BT is breaking the law"...
They are saying that taking responsible steps is a cost of doing business, not a legal requirement of doing business. Paying for insurance benefits is a responsible cost of doing business...but it is far from illegal to choose not to offer insurance benefits.
That said, BT is, I am sure, taking responsible steps. I am sure they respond to take-down notices on user-generated sites. But really...how far can you take that on P2P? By the time the letter is received, as you say, mike, it's over.
So perhaps there was some misinterpretation of the statement on your part. That doesn't really make the rest of it any less amusing, though. ;)
And all you retards calling out he First Poster who pointed out the same thing (somewhat less eloquently): I know not everyone can be as clear and concise as I, so kindly....get the hell off my internet. No, don't have a nice day, either.
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They are saying that taking responsible steps is a cost of doing business, not a legal requirement of doing business. Paying for insurance benefits is a responsible cost of doing business...but it is far from illegal to choose not to offer insurance benefits."
I'm not sure that follows. Cost of doing business is a term used to describe the costs to properly bring a product or service to market. I'm not sure that specific optional choices regarding employee compensation fall under that category. Whether you can get by with employees that don't require those benefits is a function of the job market, not a cost of providing the service/product. Using BT as an example, they need to figure in computing technology into their cost of doing business, because they aboslutely can't operate without that technology.
Again, as I stated before, I think it follows that, in one way or another, if a company does not pay their "cost of doing busines", they're going to be in legal trouble (legal suits for malpractce/negligence/etc., bankruptcy, improperly licensed use of another's IP). Providing a safe prodcut/service, having enough capital to be viable, and not having a product or service trods on another illegaly are all costs of doing business.
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This is illegal? Missed that bill. Got a link? ;)
OK: Snark out of the way....
There are far more costs of doing business. Optional, responsible, intrinsic, required by law, etc...
Benefits are but one example, but a good one. That is one interpretation of a "cost of doing business". Sure it is not "required by law", but for anyone running a business that pays benefits, you can bet that this will be on the top of their lists regarding the "cost of doing business"...and it's getting worse.
It can be taken many ways, largely based on the background (read: bias) of the reader. My first correlation upon reading that quote was, in fact, my example. Mike's was different, largely colored by his "schadenfreude" at yet another opportunity to dance on the bullet-hole riddled feet of the Communications Industry. (I am guilty of this as well, but perhaps not to such an awe inspiring (read: psychotic) degree)
What makes his interpretation more valued (wrong or right) than mine? What would make it the opposite? Nothing. Both are merely opinions, not fact. There is no Right or Wrong. (Woah... Hold up. I am always right, so that must be wrong...)
So calling someone out over an interpretation is pretty amusing, really. I love it, of course, being a jerk and all. But can't help (again, being a jerk) pointing out the fallacy of an "I am right, you are wrong" mentality when it comes to a question of interpretations. (not that it's a bad thing. Perfectly acceptable when I do it, for instance)
Now go away.
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That aside, my chief point wasn't that your interpretation was any less valid. It was that the kind of ambiguous almost-speak these assclowns like to utilize REQUIRES an interpretation, meaning that they are either constructing their speech that way on purpose or else haven't the proper wherewithal to eloquently put forth a complete thought with pretty words like me....
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...what?
That is one of the worst metaphors I have ever heard.
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Mikes original words mean that Taylor was trying to paint BT with the same brush as the law-breakers. Taylor's was a sort of "part of the solution, or part of the problem" statement. And the statement was quite suggestive. And quite possibly a deliberate effort.
Taylor didn't say that BT broke the law...he just put that suggestion out there. Mike might have stretched his interpretation, but not by much.
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There is nothing in there that even suggests that BT is breaking the law. Mike made that up out of whole cloth.
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Did cowardly anonymize:
Is there not the suggestion that BT is not paying this “cost of doing business”, and that they should be forced to? Otherwise, what is the point of the statement?
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Yes, and how do you propose we do that? OH, wiat, let's hack people's computers. That's perfectly legal.
'There is nothing in there that even suggests that BT is breaking the law. Mike made that up out of whole cloth.'
That's just bollocks. The original statement (made earlier this week) actually implied that BT is breaking the law by turning round and saying to the BPI that they can't really do anything because there's no proof for the police to get involved.
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BPI are public clowns
The Highways Agency knows that (some) people speed - they are a socially responsible outfit - their revenues gave increased whilst those of milkpersons have decrease - therefore they close all the roads and then no-one would speed and milkpeople would make more money ...
Case Proven by a bunch of intellectual cretins
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Wait, I thought that....
If they can see every time someone shares their file, then they ought to go after the person, not the ISP.
Hey sir, I heard there might be some boats in your water actin all like pirates. You had better drain the lake and find em or else!
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And, equally sadly, any statement about copyright that includes the words "how it works" but is less than 100 pages long is almost certainly oversimplified.
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Some news.
Socially responsible is not necessarily well correlated with legality. You can be very socially irresponsible whilst remaining legally impeccable. Similarly being socially responsible might involve breaking the law - because the law itself is not necessarily socially responsible.
Therefore when you complain about illegal activity it is reasonable to assume that you are demanding a response that is mandated by law not by social responsibility.
If you are asking for social responsibility then you first have a duty to prove that the behaviour that you condemn is socially irresponsible not just that it is illegal.
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By This Reasoning....
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Mike, you missed one thing here. They said "But the weekly notifications we send to BT relate solely to music files which we know are being shared illegally" which would imply they expect BT to assume BPI is giving them a legitimate list. Your reply would only graze over that, if you read it a certain way. So, here, BPI is not saying the expect BT to magically tell what's infringing; BPI is saying they expect BT to use the list they supplied to BT.
On a personal note, I still disagree with BPI. Having one company take another company's word for who's "illegal" or not is a violation of civil rights. BT has to be able to verify those claims, which often aren't provable, as you've pointed out Mike.
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I actually addressed that elsewhere in the post...
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BT cannot assume that the list is legitimate. They don't have the resources - but more importantly they shouldn't need to have them. Just like the Australian ISP in other articles said,
"They send us a list of IP addresses and say 'this IP address was involved in a breach on this date'. We look at that say 'well what do you want us to do with this? We can't release the person's details to you on the basis of an allegation and we can't go and kick the customer off on the basis of an allegation from someone else'. So we say 'you are alleging the person has broken the law; we're passing it to the police. Let them deal with it'."
That is the exact position BT is in. If BPI wants something done, they need to first get a legal order for BT to reveal who the user is by presenting convincing evidence. They then need to take that individual to court for damages, again by presenting convincing evidence of that damage. That's called due process of law. Now, whether that's something BPI *should* do is entirely a different question (with a pretty obvious answer of no from anyone who bothers to think about it).
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Roads are used every day in every country to conduct illegal activity.
Phones are used in every country every day to conduct illegal activity.
Email...check
legal guns that were legally obtained? check.
legally obtained prescription medications? check.
the problem is that you can not simply wave your arms and point while you jump up and down like a baboon hooting and flinging your excrement of "hey, they allow illegal activity!!" and expect that the world is just going to say "oh my god.... youre RIGHT!!!" and then shut them down or make them subsidize you. especially on something that is closer to communications infrastructure these days than the guns and prescription meds are.
the point i make is, bad things happen in the world and illegal activities are part of those bad things. while i am certainly not in favor of illegal activity running amok unchecked, im also not a huge fan of shutting down every road in the country OR passing along higher taxes to subsidize the bank simply because a bank robber used one for a getaway yesterday.
Quite honestly, if the record companies spent as time and money in R&D as they do trying to sue the world out of existence, this would not have been a problem to begin with since they would have been on the forefront of technology rather than pulling a broken down little red wagon with three wheels as a business model.
thank you for reading all the way to the bottom of my first registered post. if you made it this far, you deserve a cookie (i said deserve one... didnt say you were gonna get one however)
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