YouTube Taking Down Public Domain Works?

from the make-it-stop dept

Thu, Oct 29th 2009 7:51am — Mike Masnick

In the past couple of days I've received emails from two separate people who found that public domain material they put on YouTube was taken down to companies claiming ownership of the work. In both cases, the stories seem pretty ridiculous, and for all the complaining that copyright holders do about how awful it is that they need to "police" their own content on YouTube, it seems like those who are getting hurt are people who are putting up public domain material and getting shut down -- often with little recourse.

The first story comes to us from two self-described "hippies," Haint and Littia, who had put up a video showing some of Haint's works, and used as background music a song by a group called the Psalters, who put their entire album into the public domain so that anyone could do what they wanted with it -- such as using it for background music in a video. However, music licensing company Rumblefish, supposedly uploaded its catalog into YouTube's content ID system -- and apparently (and I'm still trying to figure out how, because no one seems to have a good explanation), the Psalters song is somehow in Rumblefish's catalog. Hence, YouTube took down the video. Apparently others have also been finding their perfectly legal and licensed content taken down thanks to Rumblefish as well, and were told that they needed to call and get Rumblefish's permission to get the content back up.

Haint and Littia note that they can't issue a counternotice, because Rumblefish never sent a DMCA notice which they can counter (Update: to clarify, as explained in the next sentence, they can dispute, but that's slightly different than countering the DMCA notice, and comes with its own problems). The "takedown" was triggered by the content ID match, which still makes things a bit tricky, since "disputing" such things could potentially lead to a lawsuit, so there's a bit of a chilling effect in disputing a content ID match. Poking a big company with a stick where they can turn around and file a lawsuit is a bit scary -- even if you know you're in the legal right.

While looking into that story, reader Stephen Pate sent over his own story of having his entire YouTube account suspended. He's not entirely sure why, but believes it has something to do with video he posted of the recent "crash on the moon." The video was taken directly from NASA's live broadcast, which NASA makes clear is not covered by copyright.

But... along came everyone's favorite news organization, the Associated Press, and claimed the video was their copyrighted material. Nice of them. Due to at least one other similar incident, Pate's entire account was shut down, and to make matters worse, this apparently happened at about the same time that YouTube switched emails to gmail logins, leading Google to claim that it can't match his email to the email of the account in question.

I'm sure Google and YouTube are trying their best, within the confines of copyright law and various lawsuits, to handle such situations, but it seems like things are a mess -- and more and more users are finding that even if they have what appears to be perfectly legal content, they may face takedowns and even loss of their entire account, with limited avenues for recourse.

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Filed Under: content id, public domain, takedowns
Companies: associated press, google, rumblefish

64 Comments

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spaceman spiff, 29 Oct 2009 @ 7:56am

Burden of proof
I think it's time that YouTube et al need to change their application of this cruft to place the burden of proof on the offendees before they take down stuff. IE, if you want YouTube et al to take down content, you have to prove ownership of the content in question.
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Anonymous Poster, 29 Oct 2009 @ 7:58am

This is ridiculous.

First Botchamania, now this. Allow me to be the first one here to say that YouTube has officially jumped the shark.

(Can I use that phrase? Is Viacom going to sue me for using it?)
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Anonymous Poster, 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:00am

Re: Burden of proof
But then they'll get the entertainment companies pissed all over again, and God knows they already have enough on their plate in that area without pissing them off even more.
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Headbhang, 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:18am

Urgh
Bloody outrageous.

Who's the frakking thief now??? Who is taking something they have no right to AND PREVENTING OTHERS from using it too?? (the proper definition of theft).

Few things piss me off as much as abusive double standards.
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fogbugzd (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:24am

Copyfraud
There ought to be a law against claiming copyright fraudulently. The penalty should include paying reasonable legal costs of the defendant, and there should be a possibility of punitive damages if the claimant knew or should have known that they were making a false claim.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:28am

Re: Burden of proof
Sorry, but by the law, DMCA pretty much puts the heavy burden on the copyright holder to find the violation, and then places the burden of proving otherwise on the user.

For the moon landing stuff, it's pretty easy: if the video used is the "nasa only" video (you know, the video they apparently lost) then there wouldn't be an issue. But if he posted up network news coverage of the event, then that is in fact copyright. Effectively, the moon landing footage may be in the public domain, but not the network news presentation of it.

As for the Psalters, I would say that the issue may be that they granted certain rights to Rumblefish, and also issued contradictory "open source" license to everyone. Without knowing the details of each license, there is little to do here. The error may in fact lie with the band or their management / rights holders. We don't know, so it's a big jump to go off on Youtube as a result.
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thomas, 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:29am

For the media..
the law is whatever they think it is and convince a judge or the YouTube people, or whoever of it. They don't give a rat's tushie about Public Domain or anything like that. If they claim copyright they feel it's theirs, plain and simple.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:42am

Re: Re: Burden of proof
"Sorry, but by the law, DMCA pretty much puts the heavy burden on the copyright holder to find the violation, and then places the burden of proving otherwise on the user."

Absolutely, but isn't this instance a little murkier due to the fact that no DMCA takedown notice was issued? It was matched by Youtube's content ID, and my understanding is that there isn't the same provisions for challenging a takedown with that method as with a traditional DMCA notice.

"Effectively, the moon landing footage may be in the public domain, but not the network news presentation of it."

That was what I was thinking as well.

"The error may in fact lie with the band or their management / rights holders. We don't know, so it's a big jump to go off on Youtube as a result."

I don't agree. I think the "big jump" was in YouTube summarily taking down content when there is clearly something fucked up going on. This is one of the problems with the way things like the DMCA are written: because it's written to lend deference to the rights holders, companies like YouTube just start treating EVERY situation with that deference. There is no reason why, in this instance, that video should have been taken down. They should have sorted out who did what and why there was confusion and THEN made their decision.

YouTube apparently wants to act first and think later, leading me to believe they have been attending motivational speaking sessions by Dubya....
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mike42 (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:47am

Creative Commons
This is the first time I've heard of a case where a "Creative Commons" license would be valuable. A CC license would allow Psalters to go after Rumblefish for commerical infringement (can't think of the legal term). They probably can't now, because they put their stuff in the public domain.

The bottome line is, Psalters put their music out for free, so that they would get exposure. RumbleFish is limiting that exposure. That should be grounds for civil and criminal action.

What do you think, Mike? Make a new CC license, no attribution necessary, Derivative Works allowed, commercial allowed, distribute with any license you like, but no copyright claims?
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ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 8:55am

Re: Re: Burden of proof
" But if he posted up network news coverage of the event, then that is in fact copyright."

Nope. You don't get to claim copyright if you just broadcast (or otherwise publish) a public domain work.
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Anonymous Poster, 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:05am

Re: Creative Commons
They have this already.

It's called the Zero License.
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Leviathant (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:07am

An explanation of how that match might have been made
When something's in the public domain, that original work is in the public domain. However, derivative works may be created and copyrighted. Take for example the various versions of Fritz Lang's Metropolis - available in the public domain. Various re-edits and re-masters? Copyrighted.

Perhaps someone took the music in question, made some kind of derivative work (say, ran it through software filters for compression and limiting, and branded the result a 'remaster') - this new work is potentially copyrightable.

I'm not sure exactly how much modification needs to be done before you can qualify your work as different enough from public domain to warrant its own copyright. In the case of the really nice Metropolis remaster, I can understand why there's at least some level of legal copy protection - a lot of work went into that, and the costs should be recouped.
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Mechwarrior, 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:25am

So of all the lawyers that AP and Fox use (seemingly more than actual reporters), not a single one understood what public domain content is.

Its even more outrageous that AP can say they have rights on NASA broadcasts that are explicitly in the public domain. I suppose NASA should punish AP by telling them that anyone BUT the AP can use their footage.
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Reed, 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:41am

Copyrights are just plain copywrong
"Fritz Lang's Metropolis - available in the public domain. Various re-edits and re-masters? Copyrighted."

Simply bizarre. One of the main complaints copyrights holders have is that everyone wants to freeload. It seems that with this example freeloading is exactly what the copyright holder does.

I think this is my general problem with copyrights in the first place. They cannot get were they are without "borrowing" from the culture around them, but no-one can borrow from them. Double standards abound.

Re-masters!?? Ohh, I re-sampled the original soundtrack at a higher bitrate, now I can claim copyright. Pretty pathetic in my book.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:47am

Re: Burden of proof
It's amazing how intellectual property laws cause so much damage. Without intellectual property laws we won't have these problems. But intellectual property laws and the cost of litigation make it less costly to simply take down public domain content than to investigate the issue and take down the content only after it's shown to be infringement leading to the possibility that a lot of public domain content will be taken down. But that's what intellectual property maximists want. They want to be bale to remove any content that competes with their content or at least make competing content more expensive. Public domain content is free content that competes with their content so of course intellectual property maximists, being that they have no regards for morality and never have, are going to act in this manner.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:57am

Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
Pay attention - the video is not copyright in and of itself, but anything that the network added would be. So if he used the ABC broadcast of the moon landing, or example voice overs from ABC broadcasters, then there is an issue of copyright.

As I said, it's only public domain if it's the original NASA video. Everyone else's use of and additions to it are NOT in the public domain.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:59am

Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
The Youtube ID system would mean that the song is already on file as having been DMCA'ed before or provided as a list of copyrighted material. YouTube doesn't randomly add songs to the list for fun.

YouTube is doing what is required: Remove first, restore is proven otherwise. That is the part that is the burder on the end user (non-copyright holder). If they cannot show legal use, they cannot get it restored. It's a pretty simple concept.
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nasch (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:14am

Re: An explanation of how that match might have been made
In the case of the really nice Metropolis remaster, I can understand why there's at least some level of legal copy protection - a lot of work went into that, and the costs should be recouped.

That is NOT what copyright is for (in the US). As defined by the Constitution, it is for the purpose of encouraging creation. If that remastering would not have happened with the ability to copyright it, perhaps it's appropriate. Otherwise, copyright is being used for an inappropriate purpose.
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Dark Helmet (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
"The Youtube ID system would mean that the song is already on file as having been DMCA'ed before or provided as a list of copyrighted material. YouTube doesn't randomly add songs to the list for fun."

So basically what is listed has already gone through a DMCA takedown request? If that's the case, then it makes more sense. However...

"YouTube is doing what is required: Remove first, restore is proven otherwise. That is the part that is the burder on the end user (non-copyright holder). If they cannot show legal use, they cannot get it restored. It's a pretty simple concept."

While you're absolutely correct that they are following the guidelines, is this really the best way? I guess the simple question when it comes to civil matters like infringement and enforcing those matters is: which activity causes the least amount of harm. So is there more cases of actual infringement that wouldn't be taken down immediately if we did things differently, or is there more abuse of DMCA by rights holders with the way we do them now.

Seems to me that the answer to that question ought to tell you which course of action is best. I don't know that answer, nor do I know how to GET the answer.
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ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
"As I said, it's only public domain if it's the original NASA video. Everyone else's use of and additions to it are NOT in the public domain."

'Use of' is not copyrightable (despite what the networks would have you believe.) 'Additions to' *might* be copyrightable.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
The video itself is still Public Domain, it does not matter if it is pulled from a news source. The audio may be covered by copyright, but if there is no audio, you cannot claim the video.

Slapping a logo on the video does not put it under copyright. So even if it has a ABC watermark, it is not a Copyright under ABC.

ABC does not have any video that was not shot by NASA, I imagine. It is not like they had thier own cameras up there shooting it. (And hey, if they did, wow.) If they showed footage from someone other then NASA and that was what was put onto Youtube, again, that is NOT ABC's to take down. (Unless ABC purchased the copyright along with the footage I guess, but moving on.)

The only way ABC could fairly claim the footage, is if they shot any part of the on-Youtube footage themselves.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:35am

Re: An explanation of how that match might have been made
So, wait, if the original Public Domain version sounds to much like the 'Remastered' version under copyright, the Remastered does not lose the copyright for not being a new work, rather, the remaster now gets to own the original work too?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:36am

Re: An explanation of how that match might have been made
So, wait, if the original Public Domain version sounds to much like the 'Remastered' version under copyright, the Remastered does not lose the copyright for not being a new work, rather, the remaster now gets to own the original work too?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
Because of course "guilty before proving yourself innocent" is a simple concept.
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Anonymous1, 29 Oct 2009 @ 10:59am

F' the AP from the underground....what?

No seriously what?
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JB, 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:07am

My Random-Music Video Was Mistakenly Flagged
I created a video and put it on YouTube.

I generated the music with Cinescore, which is Sony software that generates random royalty-free music clips. You tell it the style of music and the length of the clip, and it generates the soundtrack.

I received a notice from YouTube that GoDigital Media Group owned the music in my video.

Luckily I was able to protest to YouTube and they removed the flag on my video.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
Sorry, but example: Any graphics, logos, etc. Any overlays "man lands on moon". Any commentary. Anything over and above the pure NASA video is covered either by copyright (content) or trademark (logos). As he isn't able to seperate one from the other, he would have to go to another source to find the original video.

Since NASA apparently lost much of it, well... ;)
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mike allen (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:33am

Re: Re: Burden of proof
the more the music industry or film industry get pissed the better at the moment in fact put the lot and peter mandelson on a island and nuke them.

hey that a good idea.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
Bah. So you are saying if there WAS audio, and the audio was stripped, the entire thing is copyright? And if there was an ABC Logo in the bottom, and it was painted over, it is still trademark?

By that logic, if I reprint a DVD with a gold border around the image, I can claim ownership of all copies of that movie. You cannot PROVE you didn't crop the boarder, thus you are infringing. Doesn't matter if the INNER part, the part you are showing is copyrighted, I made a easy to remove modification and now it is MINE! MINE!

Simply, no. Yes, showing the ABC logo may be a trademark. However, claiming copyright over a factual statement about the video? The creator of the font would have more valid claims then ABC on such an overlay.

A dubbing over the video may qualify for Copyright. Then again, if it is from a news source, it should be FACTUAL information. Besides which, only the AUDIO would be covered, not everything. So recording silent should cover that.

Mmm... anything else?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
Bah. So you are saying if there WAS audio, and the audio was stripped, the entire thing is copyright? And if there was an ABC Logo in the bottom, and it was painted over, it is still trademark?

By that logic, if I reprint a DVD with a gold border around the image, I can claim ownership of all copies of that movie. You cannot PROVE you didn't crop the boarder, thus you are infringing. Doesn't matter if the INNER part, the part you are showing is copyrighted, I made a easy to remove modification and now it is MINE! MINE!

Simply, no. Yes, showing the ABC logo may be a trademark. However, claiming copyright over a factual statement about the video? The creator of the font would have more valid claims then ABC on such an overlay.

A dubbing over the video may qualify for Copyright. Then again, if it is from a news source, it should be FACTUAL information. Besides which, only the AUDIO would be covered, not everything. So recording silent should cover that.

Mmm... anything else?
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mike allen (profile), 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
using ay song on non profit film/video should be fair use i think you tube is mainly non profit.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
Sorry for the double post. The network I am on is uniquely bad.
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Stephen Pate, 29 Oct 2009 @ 11:56am

Takedowns
The footage in question was as pure as the driven snow. I got up early and recorded the NASA coverage live and broadcast it within a few minutes - the time it took me to convert to flv. I'm a space nut and had been covering the run-up for days. I was posting stuff to YouTube of the pre-ample, last 10 minutes and last 3 minutes. All public domain.

Over at Expecting Rain we have been following the takedown and suspension of Bob Dylan videos - a barometer of life on the web by Web Sheriff.

I can't print the chart here but this is the link to NJN http://www.njnnetwork.com/njn/?p=26641

"There's something funny going on, I can feel it in the air"
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Stephen, 29 Oct 2009 @ 12:21pm

I had Getty Images comes after me for a series of photos that I took in New York City a while back. They claimed copyright on 8 or 10 of my photos saying that I was posting their un-watermarked images on my Flickr account and claiming copyright. Little hard for them to explain why I alone, not them, held the original RAW images with the serial number of my camera body in the EXIF data. All of a sudden, they didn't want to discuss that matter any further. No apology, no nothing. They just went away. Ridiculous. These blind takedown notices need to be curbed. Unfortunately, someone is going to have to sue one of these entities for that to happen.
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This Guy, 29 Oct 2009 @ 12:22pm

It's time.
Time to move on to a different video hosting site.

As soon as something gets popular, greedy corporate whores wrap their grubby fingers around and squeeze the life out of it... then try to make money from it... and if they can't to the latter, then they try to shut it down. Rinse and repeat.

I've been moving away from Youtube now since less-frequently used sites like Viddler and Google Video still have content up even after it's removed from YouTube.
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teknosapien, 29 Oct 2009 @ 12:37pm

Is this some ploy
to make free music obsolete driving people away from the free model to the pay for play model ?
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Anonymous1, 29 Oct 2009 @ 12:46pm

A massive boycott of Youtube over these practices might help. Youtube can be stopped this way, as unlike a buisness, they don't sell a "good" so to speak.
Traditional boycotts often fail due to the sheer number of physical locations. Since in the case of Youtube there is only a single virtual location, the effect would be much more apparent, even if only a small percentage of the overall "viewers" participated. Youtube might stop the BS if their ad revenues drop low enough for a few days/weeks.
A virtual "screw the tube" campaign might be the place to start. Greedy, sniveling, pawnish Youtube needs to be schooled.
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AnonCow, 29 Oct 2009 @ 12:52pm

I recently had the audio portion of a video muted because of an ID Match. I have filed a dispute because the usage clearly fits fair use. It will be interesting to see how this proceeds.
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Benjie, 29 Oct 2009 @ 1:10pm

NASA Video
(Unless ABC purchased the copyright along with the footage I guess, but moving on.)

NASA is a government agency and that makes any public info they release automatically public domain
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 1:51pm

Re: It's time.
"greedy corporate"

correction, SELFISH not just greedy. They're SELFISH. Get it right next time.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 2:12pm

Re:
So... punish Youtube for obeying a bad law? You know, nothing would come of that, it is a bad law. Youtube is following the law. Protest the law. Protest the actions of the studios or content owners. But protesting against someone who follows the law because you dislike the law? Bad idea.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 2:14pm

Re: NASA Video
Well yes, but I mean purchased it from an observatory, or private satellite images, or amateur footage or something of that nature.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 2:21pm

Move on to a new video sharing site.
There are no laws saying you cannot upload your videos to other countries services that have no laws.

If youtube is getting cumbersome let people find other solutions in other countries that are more friendly. Then it may hit home that the U.S. will loose more than it already have.
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Anonymous1, 29 Oct 2009 @ 3:38pm

AC: There are numerous reasons to go after Youtube, especially if they're going to continually piss on themselves, and their content creators, while wearing
a blinfold as to the reasons. They also have plenty of sway to tell the parties causing all the trouble to back off, but won't. It isn't out of fear, but out of lazyness and confusing, and inconsistantly applied standards. The redress process needs to be corrected. If you could READ twit, you might also notice that at least in one case, DMCA (WHICH DOES NEED TO BE REWRITTEN, IMHO) was not the culpret.
This is the same nonsense as the ebay take down awhile ago. If you don't see the pattern, then you and the youtube folks must be sharing the same blindfold.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 5:45pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
Except for the ads, the outbound links, and the paid placements. Sorry, YouTube is a commercial entity. Just because the poster doesn't profit doesn't make it non-profit.
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tim, 29 Oct 2009 @ 7:20pm

Re: Copyfraud
Well, the precedent has been set. For individuals, $80,000 per song. What does the thing at the start of movies say? isnt it about 10x for corporations? just apply their own laws on them, if they incorrectly claim copyright on something they dont own, they can be hit for damages. of at least $80,000 per song/item.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Oct 2009 @ 9:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Burden of proof
No, what I am saying is that the network VERSION of the video is copyright to them, only to the extent of the material they added.

Think of it like software. You take an open source product, wrap it inside a bigger product, and sell the product commercially. The bigger product is copyright, even though there are some parts that may not be. If you can pull the part away from the whole, you are free to use it.

The video, which might have commentary, graphics, annotations, lower 3rds, subtitling, or other material that was added by the network, example, would make that as a whole copyright. It doesn't mean they own the NASA video, just that this version with their additions is copyright to them. It does not mean that they can stop people from using the stock NASA footage, but they can control how their finished product is used within the boundries of fair use.

It's a simple concept really, which is why I am confused why anyone doesn't get it.
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BackPackAdam, 30 Oct 2009 @ 12:57am

Re: Re: Burden of proof
That may be true for the moon 'landing' video, however I believe this is for something totally different: A few months ago NASA "crashed" some instruments into the moon.

It wasn't very interesting, and I don't know why anyone would want to watch that over and over again. I know it was boring because I watched the live NASA TV feed on NASA.com.
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Cybertelecom, 30 Oct 2009 @ 5:22am

Take Down Notices
There is another important distinction. If there is a DMCA take down notice, the content-uploader has rights pursuant to the DMCA. "If someone sends a notice to the provider, knowing that the notice is a material misrepresentation, resulting in the wrongful removed of content (or if the poster sends a wrongful counter notice), the injured party has certain rights (recovery from the ISP is not one of them). [Diebold] The wrongful actor may be liable to the injured party (including the provider) for resulting damage including costs and attorney’s fees. [17 U.S.C. § 512(f)] Note that individuals seeking damages under this section will have two challenges:
* establishing that the illicit notice was provided with knowledge that it was errant [Arista] [Rossi] and
* establishing damage (if the local youth soccer club's website is taken down for a week due to an errant notice, what is the quantifiable damage)."
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Haint Bradley, 30 Oct 2009 @ 6:56am

Content ID Match
Haint here. Like the article said, this is not a DMCA take down notice. It is a Content ID match. The video is not removed, taken down or muted. The notice states in part"Your video MAY (emphasis mine and the whole point of this discussion) include content owned or licensed by the following content owners" and "No action is required on your part." and "In some cases ads may appear"
(A screenshot of this notice can be found at http://cybertrips.blogspot.com/)
The notice does not claim ownership - just a match with something they own or license and takes control of the moneitzation of the video.
These content id matches can be because the content in their catalog is matched to videos with content:
1) in public domain
2) resold by a reseller who bought it from rumblefish
3) used with artist/owner] permission but rumblefish also has a license to distribute same content

This is an error - not coming down on YouTube (we've heard it happening on Vimeo) or Rumblefish.
The system needs a little de-bugging.
Meanwhile, we will just let it be - until/unless there is a move to assert rights over the video such as monetzation.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Oct 2009 @ 10:16am

Re-read Feist v. Rural Telephone
Much of this discussion is based on rubbish. E.g.:
I'm not sure exactly how much modification needs to be done before you can qualify your work as different enough from public domain to warrant its own copyright. In the case of the really nice Metropolis remaster, I can understand why there's at least some level of legal copy protection - a lot of work went into that, and the costs should be recouped.
Under US law, it does not matter how much effort/time/money went into a re-arrangement of an older work -- the new copyright consists only in those new (minimally) creative elements. There is no "sweat of the brow" doctrine in US copyright law. The new copyright adheres to the new arrangement, and does not extend to the old footage. And a non-creative addition (e.g. digitally remaster or format shift) does not create a copyright, no matter how much effort it takes. Re-read Feist. And understand it.
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wvhillbilly (profile), 30 Oct 2009 @ 5:23pm

Re: Re: Burden of proof
Answer me this: Can the Associated Press or anybody else claim copyright on the public domain by way of using or quoting something that is in the public domain? Can they extend their copyright back to the public domain source, just because they published/used it?

I think not. But I wouldn't put it past them to try.
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wvhillbilly (profile), 30 Oct 2009 @ 5:38pm

Re: An explanation of how that match might have been made
--"this new work is potentially copyrightable."--

Yeah, understandable. But can they extend their copyright back to the public domain original and claim copyright on it?

I don't think they can-not legally anyway. But I wouldn't put it past them to try.
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MSPaintnerd, 1 Nov 2009 @ 1:19am

Public Domain
I had a fairly popular account with Youtube called MSPaintnerd with 206 subscribers that featured public domain movies. The account was taken down by Youtube because of some bogus claims. The last "copyright violation" was about Alice and Wonderland from 1903. ANYTHING prior to 1923 is in public domain unquestionably. Anybody who knows anything about public domain is aware of this yet Youtube took down my account and basically gave me know recourse. You can still watch all my movies (over 100) at mspaintnerd.com.
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nintendo ds r4, 4 Nov 2009 @ 4:54am

nintendo ds r4 says
Thanx for the valuable information. The bigger product is copyright, even though there are some parts that may not be. If you can pull the part away from the whole, you are free to use it. keep posting. Will be visiting back soon.
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psalters, 5 Nov 2009 @ 1:12pm

Re: Re: Burden of proof
i'm in psalters and write most of the music. all of our releases (dating back to 1996) have always expressly stated "all songs public domain, no rights reserved"
We fully expected companies to abuse this....if we ever made music people listened to.....a handful of people do...and so a handful of companies over the years have abused our refusal of rights. I was prepared for folks like rumblefish to claim to own our stuff. That is the land we live in.
We never heard of or granted anything to rumblefish or anyone else. When folks ask to use our stuff we simply respond "do what you want with what you want"...we have never registered or dealt with anything in a formal manner...even when our stuff is used by large publishers or movies etc......we just tell them the same thing we tell the random kid behind a computer. we don't deal with companies or contracts, and have certainly never dealt with rumblefish. This stuff will happen.
There are a few cases where download sites have actually had the audacity to charge money for our music....as if they incurred a cent of expense. I guarantee we don't see any of that. The positives of doing things the way we would like have far outweighed the annoying consequences of dickish folks like rumblefish. As for youtube.....many folks have posted our music without any rumblings from various fish...so i would say just put it up again and know that ultimately you are not in any legal danger....and will always have our untrademarked, unbound, unregistered, uncopyrighted, unenfringed thumbs up! .....unless you use it in a shitty or hippie way (i hate hippies!)
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psalters, 5 Nov 2009 @ 1:52pm

follow up to my post from ten minutes ago
i just got a call from rumblefish. Apparently this doesn't really have anything to do with us listing our music "public domain" ....in this case it is simply a matter of a software filter mistakenly flagging audio....in this case....our audio. It reads sound files and not the data attached....so it could have been copyrighted correctly, or what have you, and not made a difference. They said the video in question, which i have never seen, can be reposted or unflagged or whatever.
So perhaps rumblefish is not "dickish" but just has bad software. I believe them.
But in general the complaints we all share remain valid....and for me personally i think the response does too. If you don't like the copyright world...then live and relate in a way where it doesn't much affect you.
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LD, 14 Nov 2009 @ 11:53am

GoDigital and YouTube monetizing
GoDigital Music Group makes MONEY with its program AdShare. They have a fishing program that tries to match music to see if it is copyrighted/licensed. But on the GoDigital website they claim they may not even own the copyright or license. They say their YouTube notice that a user "may" have violated a right "may" be a mistake.

They ask the user to send them a URL of the video so they can check if the warning was a mistake.

They have a computer program that may or may not be able to match audio content. They may or may not have any legal connection to any or all of the content (audio in a YouTube video). BUT after they identify an audio portion of a file, they get to post an AdShare in the upper right hand corner of any video their computer program detects "may" or "may not" be a copyright/license violation.

These people at GoDigital are making money off ads they place by blackmailing YouTube posters. They say their detection system can make mistakes because there is no central clearing house for all music/audio content.

Kind of a "sub-prime" scheme for web content, instead of real estate.

Crazy world - the way some people "make" a living.
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background music at JewelBeat (profile), 28 Jul 2010 @ 11:29pm

GoDigital... where does the money go?
On GoDigital, I don't really think a dime goes to the music producers and it is just another way to justify to place ads and make money. Of course some people are getting paid but not the artists definitely. Sigh...
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Dave, 26 Feb 2012 @ 2:13pm

had the same issue with NIN Ghosts
I had the same issue with some tracks off the NIN Ghosts album. It was released with a Creative Commons BY-NC-SA license, and yet these guys still claimed "copyright" over it and I got the warning email from youtube.

I never did hear back about the results of my challenge.
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Kevin, 27 Feb 2012 @ 3:11am

This looks like it's been coming up again recently.

Two years from this post and I think we just have to say that having your video removed or having ads put on top of it, is just the price you pay for using Youtube.

Youtube can do whatever it wants.

Have a backup plan to distribute anything important and expect you're gonna have to contest anything you upload.
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Seegras (profile), 28 Feb 2012 @ 3:48am

Re: An explanation of how that match might have been made
> Yeah, understandable. But can they extend their copyright
> back to the public domain original and claim copyright on
> it?

No. Doing that would be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyfraud

Actually, solely putting a notice claiming copyright onto a public domain work is already copyfraud.
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CountrySpaniel, 15 Feb 2013 @ 4:20am

Re: My Random-Music Video Was Mistakenly Flagged
I've just had exactly the same problem. The annoying part is I use Cinescore precisely to avoid copyright problems. NKT.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Jul 2015 @ 12:13am

Re: Copyfraud
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